amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-01 JISS CENTRE, JOHANNESBURG 4 EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY AM 7208/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53086&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811241202_jhb_981201ji.htm MR SAMUELS I call Jabu Jacob Nyethe to the stand. CHAIRPERSON Is that the one that wants to use Xhosa? MR SAMUELS No. CHAIRPERSON Well let's deal with him now that a Xhosa interpreter is here. MR SAMUELS Okay. I call Embrose May to the stand please. MS PATEL It's bundle 3, page 157. MR SAMUELS His application is number 7208/97, volume 3 page 157. CHAIRPERSON Mr May you told me yesterday that you prefer to use Xhosa, have you any objections to the taking of the oath? EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS Mr Chairperson, may I at this stage make an application to amend the applicant's answer to one of the questions? He has eluded to the evidence that he wishes to give further on in his application. However, at paragraph 9 (a) the dates given are 1991 to December 1993, 9(a)ii. The applicant however wishes to give evidence about an incident which he refers to in 9(b) which in fact occurred in 1994. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) amend the period to 1994? MR SAMUELS More specifically to April 1994. Thank you Mr Chair. Mr May, do you belong to a political party? MR MAY Yes. MR SAMUELS Which political party do you belong to? MR MAY The ANC. MR SAMUELS You are applying for amnesty for the offences of attempted murder, possession of an AK47 and ammunition, is that correct? MR MAY That is correct. MR SAMUELS Briefly, will you explain to the Committee the incidents or the incident that you are referring to? MR MAY Yes I can do that. I will start with an incident when I was arrested with an AK47. I was arrested in number 2226 in Makukule in Emalaheni Section. The soldiers came at night when I was sleeping, after 10 at night. When they got there they didn't know the person they were looking for personally. They were told where I was staying and when they arrived they kicked the door. When kicking the door I saw them while they were inside the house. MR SAMUELS When was that, that you were found with the AK47? MR MAY It was in April, the first week of April, two weeks before the 1994 elections. MR SAMUELS Now with regard to the attempted murder, would you explain that incident? MR MAY Yes I can explain this way. Because I was a commander of the SDU's in Emalahleni Section, we had to come from Emalahleni. CHAIRPERSON Did you shoot at somebody? MR MAY Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR MAY Where I was staying in number 2226. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR MAY It was in the middle of April, the week that I've already described. CHAIRPERSON 1994? MR MAY Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know who you shot at? MR MAY I don't know the person's name. CHAIRPERSON Why did you shoot at him? MR MAY The reason is because this person was harassing me because of the work that I was doing and he promised to report this to the soldiers and to the police so my life was in danger because the police and the soldiers were looking for me. CHAIRPERSON So you shot him because you wanted to avoid detection by the police? Is that the reason you shot him? MR MAY That is not the reason that way, but the way we used to work, a person who informed the police at that time was an informer or he betrayed the people because I was working for the people. CHAIRPERSON So is that the reason you shot him because he was an informer? MR MAY I can say yes that is the reason even though that was not my aim because I warned him at first, I told him to stop what he was doing and I called the people who were with him to talk to him and they couldn't get through him and then I took that decision. MR SAMUELS Mr May, was the person injured? MR MAY I shot him in the arm. MR SAMUELS After you had shot him what did you do, Mr May? MR MAY I went to a place where I could be safe when the police were looking for me or the soldiers. MR SAMUELS And the AK47 that you used to shoot the person, what happened to that weapon? MR MAY The soldiers took the AK47, they took it with them. MR SAMUELS Is that when they came to arrest you? MR MAY Yes that is correct. MR SAMUELS Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL Mr Chair just briefly if I may? I just want to know if the person who was shot had any political affiliation known to the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Is the matter that he testifies about? Is that a matter in which one of your clients had an interest in? MR SWANEPOEL Not specifically, apart from the political interest of the IFP may have, depending on the answer or not, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SWANEPOEL Mr May, do you know whether the person you shot was a member of any political party? MR MAY I don't know. MR SWANEPOEL Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, if I may just briefly? Can you tell us where you got the weapon from and whether you had a licence for it? MR MAY I didn't have a licence for this weapon but because of the situation I had to have this weapon. I took this weapon from the community, I got it from the community. CHAIRPERSON Be specific, I mean the community is a lot of people. MR MAY We used to get weapons from the community because the community was being attacked. So because the community was attacked the community tried to get money so that weapons can be bought but at that time ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We just want to know a name of the person or persons or committee that issued the firearm to you, that's all. MR MAY The committee of the section tried to get some funds so that we can get those weapons. It was difficult to know where they bought these weapons from or who they bought them from. CHAIRPERSON Did you pick this weapon up in the streets of Thokoza? MR MAY As I've already said, I'm staying in Emalahlene section. There was a committee at that time that was responsible for that particular section. CHAIRPERSON Are you not going to tell us who actually gave you the weapon? MR MAY I don't remember their names but Mr Mtembu was one of the committee members. MS PATEL This person whom you killed, you say you don't know his name. Can you tell us exactly what you knew about him? I would like you to be as specific as possible please. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, was this person in fact killed? CHAIRPERSON Shot. ADV DE JAGER He was shot in the arm, did he die? MR MAY He was not killed, he was shot in the arm. I was not staying in that section for a long time and I don't know much about the people in that area but what I know is that he knew about me and he told the police publicly about what I did and that was very dangerous. MS PATEL How do you know that he was the person who told the police whatever information about you? MR MAY When the soldiers came they said they are looking for Embrose May. They were looking for an AK47, an AK47 that was used in that shooting incident that made me realise that he was the person who went to the soldiers and told the soldiers about me. CHAIRPERSON Aikona, you shot this man before you were arrested and that is the issue. How did you know that this man was an informer that had required to be shot at? MR MAY Without explaining details, the reason why I called his friends, the people that I thought were his friends, and the reason why I took out a weapon was because of what he was saying and the things that he was saying showed that he might be dangerous or he is dangerous because at that time when you see a person with such a weapon you wouldn't just call out on the street saying that you would call the soldiers. We didn't expect any person to call the soldiers at that time. CHAIRPERSON So you suspected because of that that he was an informer? MR MAY He told me that he was going to call the police and the soldiers and he said that he knew that I had an AK47. I then warned him. ADV MOTATA Now you somewhat mentioned that he knew his friends. When you spoke to his friends, whom did you say was an informer and he should be warned? MR MAY When I was talking to his friends because they were there with him, I asked his friends whether they can hear what he was saying and I said to them they must stop him or try to talk to him to stop what he was saying and they tried to stop him because they could hear what he was staying and they were trying to stop him and he didn't see at the time that I had an AK47 and I tried to give him a warning. When I was trying to scare him, I then shot at him. MS PATEL Who are these friends of the victim in this matter that you refer to? MR MAY Please repeat your question ma'am? MS PATEL Who are the friends of the victim that you refer to, that you said you spoke to? MR MAY When I'm saying friends, I don't mean that I know their names but they were together. That showed me that they were his friends. One of them was James. MS PATEL How did you know that they were not informers as well? MR MAY That is why I did what I did because I knew that my life was in danger, I knew that what he was doing there are many people who are listening. Even a person who didn't know this information would be informed because of what he said. I then decided to take action because he was the one who was saying these things. ADV DE JAGER But you were standing in the street openly with an AK47 at that stage? MR MAY I said ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Isn't that so, yes or no? Would you please answer the question? MR MAY I was not in the street, that is why I'm trying to explain that I was inside the yard. CHAIRPERSON Could everybody see that you had a gun? MR MAY They didn't see that I had an AK47. CHAIRPERSON Could they have seen, I'm not asking if they did? MR MAY They saw they weapon after realising that I had to use it. CHAIRPERSON Come Mr May, all I'm asking you, when this person said he's going to tell the police that you have an AK47, did you have an AK47 with you so that the people who were ordinary people who were walking in the street could see that you were in fact in possession of this firearm? MR MAY The AK47 was with me but the way that I was holding it, people couldn't see it and it was during the night. The people in the streets couldn't see it because I was inside the yard. CHAIRPERSON Okay. ADV DE JAGER Now how did he see at that stage that you had the AK47 if it was at night? MR MAY If it is at night it does not mean that you cannot see what is near you, he saw it when I was taking it out, he then went back. That showed me that he saw the weapon. ADV DE JAGER And at that stage people were blaming the police and the soldiers because they didn't protect the community? MR MAY Yes that is correct, the police and the soldiers were not protecting the community. ADV DE JAGER Would it then be wrong for somebody to go to the police and tell them here's somebody with a weapon, come and protect us? MR MAY That wouldn't be right at the time because that person was in the area that we protected. We were the people who protected him and the police and the soldiers were not protecting him at that time. But at the time he wouldn't tell the killers and say here is the person who is protecting us is having a weapon. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether this person wasn't perhaps a member of the ANC himself? MR MAY We were not fighting with the ANC or the IFP, we were fighting with the people who were killing the community, there were a lot of ways to kill the community. To inform the police was killing a community. We were fighting even inside the ANC if there was a need, we were not looking at the IFP or the PAC. ADV DE JAGER So because he said he wanted to inform the police you regarded him as an enemy, is that right? MR MAY Yes I regarded him as an enemy. ADV DE JAGER And that was the reason why you shot at him? MR MAY I shot at him even though those were not my aims. I tried to warn him and then eventually he was shot. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) is because you thought he thought of collaborating with the enemy, the police? MR MAY That is correct. MS PATEL Mr May, what else did this victim know about you that he would have been able to inform on besides the fact that he saw you at that particular stage in possession of a firearm, what else did he know about you? MR MAY I wouldn't know because if a person is investigating about you he is investigating everything so I wouldn't know what he knew or what he didn't know. MS PATEL So for all you know, he may have known absolutely nothing about you? CHAIRPERSON Expect that he was in possession, unlawful possession of an AK47. MR MAY If you say so. MS PATEL You also mentioned in your evidence in chief that you shot at him because he was harassing you. What do you mean by that? MR MAY At that time when you were calling out or when you were telling people or when you did what you said you were going to do, telling the police, was to betray a person so he was trying to betray me. MS PATEL Okay, just for clarity, you may have mentioned this already but did he say - is the only thing that he said that he would tell the police that you were in possession of a firearm, of a weapon, is that all he said he would tell the police? MR MAY I can say so but I didn't think something he said was very important, he said he was from Mozambique and he is used to an AK47. I then realised that there was war between us. MS PATEL I don't understand, could you please explain? MR MAY What I'm trying to say is when you are asking a question that except what he said that he was going to tell the police that I had an AK, if there was something else. There was nothing else except that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He was in other words a threat to you and in so being a threat to you he was a political opponent? MR MAY His actions showed that. MS PATEL Just to confirm, he said he was from Mozambique? MR MAY Yes that's what he said, even the language he used. MS PATEL So he - okay. What else did you know about him? MR MAY As I've already said I was not staying in that area for a long time, I was just there when I was hiding so I don't know much about him but I found out that he knew a lot about me. MS PATEL But you've already conceded that you don't know what he knew about you except of course that he saw you in possession of an AK47? CHAIRPERSON Well and that he threatened to tell the police and soldiers. MR MAY Yes that is all, there's nothing else. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL ADV DE JAGER In your application you say that "my chief commander's name was Bonga Nkosi" and you state it under the particulars of whether the deed was approved by anybody. What was your chief commander's attitude about this offence you've committed? MR MAY My chief commander got a report and I was not expected to get permission from him to do what I did because he was far away and the situation at that time made me to do what I did. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether he afterwards approved of what you did? MR MAY If you say after this I've approved, it has already happened. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUELS Thank you Mr Chairperson, I just wish to clarify three little points? Mr May, the Mozambican gentleman, did he see with the gun when he started threatening you or was it before he had seen the gun that he started threatening you? MR MAY He didn't see me with the weapon at the time he was saying this. He spoke about this because he knew about me and he was investigating before this date and he knew what I was doing. He then saw the weapon at the time that I was showing it to him. MR SAMUELS Mr May, this weapon, where did you keep this AK47 that he didn't see it when he had started to threaten you? MR MAY Because it was cold I had a jacket on and I also had this jacket on so that I can hide this weapon and my weapon didn't have an arm butt, I took it off. MR SAMUELS Are you saying your weapon didn't have an arm butt so it became shorter, is that my understanding of what you're saying? MR MAY Yes. MR SAMUELS So it would have been easier to conceal under your coat, is that correct? MR MAY Yes that is correct. MR SAMUELS Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY SAMUELS