amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-01 JISS CENTRE, JOHANNESBURG 4 KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO AM 7303/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53088&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811241202_jhb_981201ji.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is next? MR SAMUELS I call Kifuwe Michael Nhlapo. On page 2, it's the last name of the list applicant 7303, page 187 of Volume 2. CHAIRPERSON What number? MR SAMUELS 7303/97. ADV MOTATA May you assist me with the page once more please? MR SAMUELS Page 187, Volume 2. ADV MOTATA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON What language would you prefer to use? MR NHLAPO Zulu. KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO (sworn states) MR SAMUELS Mr Nhlapo, are you 22 years old? MR NHLAPO Yes. MR SAMUELS And are you a member of the ANC? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SAMUELS And during the early 1990's you were a member of the self defence units in Thokoza, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SAMUELS Who was your commander? MR NHLAPO It was Ben Mashinini. MR SAMUELS You are applying for four offences, murder, attempted murder, kidnapping and possession of a firearm, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SAMUELS Now the kidnapping, who gave the instructions a kidnapping? CHAIRPERSON No we don't know if there were instructions. MR SAMUELS Did anybody give you instructions to carry out these events or acts? MR NHLAPO Yes there is someone. MR SAMUELS Who instructed you? MR NHLAPO It was Ben Mashinini. MR SAMUELS Now the kidnapping, what did he tell you to do? MR NHLAPO He told us to go and look for Sibongele. MR SAMUELS Right, describe in your own words what happened? MR NHLAPO We left the danger zone, taken the direction of Extension 5, looking for Sibongele. We found her there, we tried to bring her back. She struggle, we forced her. We first started at her place. There was another lady who was there. We took that lady with, we went back to the danger zone. When we arrived there I was standing outside and myself and Joseph ...(intervention) MR SAMUELS When you say you arrived there, where did you arrive? MR NHLAPO There was a house that was vandalised. MR SAMUELS What house was that? MR NHLAPO It was at Section F. MR SAMUELS Continue, you said we arrived there, who is we? MR NHLAPO It was myself, Joseph, it was Jabu, Mdmase, Maseven, Mavi and M'Afrika. MR SAMUELS Were there other people as well? MR NHLAPO Yes there were other peoples but I cannot remember their names. MR SAMUELS When you got to this house describe what happened? MR NHLAPO Mdmase came, got into the house and with these ladies who were standing outside, we were waiting, we were waiting there to see the police. We were safeguarding the place, I don't know what happened inside the place. ADV MOTATA If you could just take it slowly, the interpreters can't keep pace with you. If you could slow down a little please? MR SAMUELS You say you were standing outside the house, continue? MR SAMUELS We were standing outside, myself and Joseph and the others went into the house. When they went into the house they were supposed to shoot Sibongele and her sister. As we were waiting outside, nothing happened. As time went on the ...(inaudible) came out of the house running and he said nothing. When he left the house I saw M'Afrika leaving the house also. After some time Jabu came also. Jabu asked me if the job was done already in the house. I told Jabu that I had nothing since I've been standing there but nothing happened and Jabu got into the house also. ADV DE JAGER But I understood you now to say you were standing outside the house with Joseph, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. ADV DE JAGER After a while Doctor came running out of the house, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And after a further while M'Africa also came out of the house MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And a little later Jabu came out of the house? MR NHLAPO Jabu came from another direction. He got into the house, I heard that they were arguing inside. We were then standing next to the door, we could hear that he was arguing with them and he told them that they were not actually doing what they were told and I don't know what is that they were doing. We heard a first gunshot and after some time two shots rang again and the last one and Jabu left the house. MR SAMUELS ...(inaudible) when he left the house? MR NHLAPO When he left the house he told Mdmase to finish up the job because his bullets were finished at the time. MR SAMUELS And where did Jabu go? MR NHLAPO Jabu took the same direction that he came from. MR SAMUELS What happened? MR NHLAPO After some time I heard a gunshot from the AK47 and one lady came out of the house, I don't know which one was it between the two ladies and she ran away and when she was running away I shot. MR SAMUELS You say you shot? MR NHLAPO Yes. MR SAMUELS How many times? MR NHLAPO Two times. MR SAMUELS What weapon did you have? MR NHLAPO It was a pistol. MR SAMUELS Okay, you shot at her, did she fall down? MR NHLAPO No she did not fall. CHAIRPERSON Then this lady that you shot at was that one of the two ladies that had been kidnapped? MR NHLAPO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure? Are you sure? MR NHLAPO Yes I'm sure. CHAIRPERSON Now when you saw this lady, was she full of blood or what? MR NHLAPO I did not see because it was dark, it was in the evening. MR SAMUELS Now you say this lady didn't fall, what happened to her? MR NHLAPO We chased her, we brought her back to the house and he was shot at in the house. It was myself and the other comrades that were there. MR SAMUELS You say you chased her and you ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The interpreter did not hear the last words of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat what you said? MR NHLAPO We brought her back to the house and I must had took her to the house and we left the place and I must have shot her and she came back to us and she told us that the job was done and we left the scene. MR SAMUELS Thank you, that's the evidence of the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS CHAIRPERSON When the lady was brought back to the house after escaping, did you go into the house or did you still stay outside. MR NHLAPO We waited outside because we knew that some people would be standing outside and the others were to be inside so we planned that I would be standing outside. CHAIRPERSON What was the purpose of you standing outside? MR NHLAPO I was watching for in case the police - I was watching for in case one of them tried to run away and the police also. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL Can I just make sure, who gave you the instructions to go and fetch Sigongele? MR NHLAPO It was Ben Mashinini. MR SWANEPOEL Now on page 192 of the bundle where your application is bound, paragraph 11(b) or 11 in general or 11(b) specifically, you state that it was done on order of commander Extension 2, was that Ben? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct, but the one that is stated here is not Ben. MR SWANEPOEL Now who is he? MR NHLAPO Here they are talking about Meneer. MR SWANEPOEL Who was he? MR NHLAPO Meneer was just a commander, not full time commander, he was just assisting Ben but the person who would give us correct instructions was Ben. ADV MOTATA When you mean the person stated here, who filled in this application form? MR NHLAPO I'm the one who requested for this form but I did not mention Meneer's name. ADV MOTATA Yes I say I don't know if I heard you correctly, you said the person mentioned here, written down here is not Ben, I say who wrote this out, for instance this 11 who wrote out what we see there Extension 2, Commander Extension 2, who wrote that out? MR NHLAPO Yes it's true that we got instructions from the Commander of Section 2 but I don't know anything about Meneer giving us instructions that I stated that clearly that Ben gave us instruction, Meneer was just a commander that was full time and the one was actually assisting Ben, this is new to me. CHAIRPERSON All the question he's asking, who filled in this? ADV DE JAGER Who wrote it there, whose handwriting? MR NHLAPO That is not my handwriting. The person who was there was George, he is the one who fetched me from my home. MR SWANEPOEL So do I understand you correctly that Meneer had nothing to do with this, the events you're giving evidence about? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And when Ben gave you instructions did he tell you who to go and kidnap? MR NHLAPO Yes he did. MR SWANEPOEL Right now look at page 189 of your application, in paragraph C the name of your victims is asked and you say "I know", why do you say so? MR NHLAPO This is new to me also. MR SWANEPOEL Now look at page 193 of your application, is that your signature at the bottom? MR NHLAPO Yes that is my signature. MR SWANEPOEL And did you give your signature under oath at the police station as appears on page 194? MR NHLAPO No, I did not take any oath, I was just ordered to sign. CHAIRPERSON Page 1 that also happens. MR SWANEPOEL As you please Mr Chairman. Now look at page 190 of your application. You gave some exposition of your activities as a member of the SDU on that page, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Will you please read it to me because I do not understand English. Please read out to me. ADV MOTATA The other thing before you proceed Mr Swanepoel, we already know that he did not fill in this form. I say when doing that, bear that in mind. I'm not curtailing you in any way. MR SWANEPOEL As you please. Why is this event that you gave evidence about not mentioned anywhere in this application? MR NHLAPO I don't know that is a question I have in mind also. MR SWANEPOEL Alright, in any event, what did Ben tell you to go and do? MR NHLAPO He told us to go and fetch Sigongele from Section 5 and shoot her. MR SWANEPOEL He did tell you to fetch anybody else and shoot anybody else? MR NHLAPO Yes that is true, it was Sibongele and her sister. At Extension 5 it would be Sibongele and Sibongele only. MR SWANEPOEL Sorry what did you say? MR NHLAPO The instruction was issued to fetch two people but I at Extension 5 there was only Sibongele and her sister was in her house at Extension 2 and we went there also. At Extention 5 we went to fetch Sibongele and her sister was somewhere else and we went there also to fetch her. MR SWANEPOEL Now when you fetched her and you took her away from Sibongele's house, did everybody go along to the house in Section F? MR NHLAPO The people who were in my company yes, except Mogoera, Vuya and Jaba. The commander told them to go back because they were not armed and the people who were armed had to proceed. ADV DE JAGER Yes, you were armed. You were armed? MR NHLAPO Yes I had a firearm. ADV DE JAGER And Joseph? MR NHLAPO Yes he was also armed. ADV DE JAGER What kind of firearm did he have? MR NHLAPO It was a pistol. MR SWANEPOEL And when you proceeded to the house in Section F you stayed outside the whole time, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL You also gave evidence that when after Doctor left and M'Africa left, Jabu came from a certain direction and entered the house and you heard them arguing inside, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL Now tell us, what did you hear inside the house before Doctor left? MR NHLAPO I heard nothing before Doctor left, the only thing that we were waiting for in the house, we were waiting to hear the gun shots, that's all. MR SWANEPOEL But you heard nothing at all, not even screams? MR NHLAPO No. MR SWANEPOEL Even though if someone had screamed you would have heard that? MR NHLAPO Yes we would be able to hear if someone is screaming? ADV MOTATA How far were you when you stood guard from the actual door of the house, how far were you? MR NHLAPO Those yards are so small, we were inside the yard, maybe it was a distance from these tables to that corner of the hall there, the distance from the wall and the others were actually surrounding and the others were watching from the other side. INTERPRETER He pointed the distance from the corner of the table towards the corner of that wall just behind the table that the table where the panel is, Sir. MR SAMUELS Shall we estimate at four metres? Five metres? Eight metres. MR SWANEPOEL And then all of a sudden Doctor came running out of the house? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL And then Mafrica came - left the house as well is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Did Doctor say anything when he left the house? MR NHLAPO He said nothing. He left running. MR SWANEPOEL And then Jabu came into the house from another direction, is that right? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL Did you hear shots inside the house while Jabu was there? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL How many shots. MR NHLAPO Four times, four shots. MR SWANEPOEL And then, did Jabu leave? MR NHLAPO Yes he left after his firearm ran short of bullets and he instructed Mdmase to finish off the job. ADV DE JAGER I don't think you'll have much success in cross-examining him, he was sitting in the hall listening to the previous witness so he know about the running out of bullets, he knows everything that the previous ones have testified about, he is repeating the same evidence. MR SWANEPOEL As you please, Mr Commissioner, the only part that I'm getting to is the part where the one girl apparently ran away, escaped after Jabu had left the house. That's new firstly and secondly, in the light of Jabu's evidence highly unlikely. CHAIRPERSON Why unlikely? MR SWANEPOEL Well he testified that he shot both of them, he shot Sibongele twice and that he left both of them lying on the floor instructing one of these colleagues to go in and finish the job and in that sequence somewhere the one still ran away got carried back and then got shot at again. It doesn't take the matter any further apart from credibility. As you please Mr Chairperson. Now you heard as was correctly pointed out by the Commissioner that you were in the audience when Jabu gave evidence and he said when he left they were both lying on the floor and they were both shot, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON I think for the purposes of the question and what seems to be the point you're leading up to, Jabu also said is that he saw one of them moving so it wasn't as if to say the one was shot and totally incapacitated and hence he gave instructions or asked someone else to finish the job as he put it. MR SWANEPOEL As you please Mr Chairperson. So when Jabu left, both of the girls were shot, both were lying on the floor, Jabu saw one of them moving and that's why he instructed one of your colleagues to finish the jobs, did you hear that? MR NHLAPO Yes I heard that. MR SWANEPOEL Now - and Jabu did not say anything about one of the girls running away from there, attempting to escape and being brought back to the house ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Swanepoel, are you surprised? He had already left, if it did happen he wouldn't have seen it so it was understandable that Jabu wouldn't testify about that. MR SWANEPOEL As you please Mr Chairperson, as I remember the evidence correctly, Jabu's testimony was to the effect that immediately after he left his colleague entered the house with the AK47 and he heard the shots. MS PATEL That is the way I understand his evidence as well. MR SWANEPOEL As you please. Why didn't Jabu mention this escape attempt? CHAIRPERSON Mr Swanepoel, it's still - it's not self-destructive, he may have shot the other person. MR SWANEPOEL As you please. CHAIRPERSON Or may have missed as has seemed to be the case with every of these shotists. MR SWANEPOEL Let me ask you this way, did the girl escape before your colleague entered the house with the AK47 to finish the job? MR NHLAPO She left after Jabu had instructed the other comrade. Jabu told them they must finish off the job and he left and after Jabu and then we heard a gunshot and the lady ran away. CHAIRPERSON In that order, you heard a gunshot and then she ran away? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. It was first the gunshot and the lady left the house running. MR SWANEPOEL So she ran away while your colleague with the AK47 was inside busy finishing the job, as you call it? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL After you caught her and you took her back and you - I assume there were further gunshots, did you look inside the house at any time before you left? MR NHLAPO No we did not get into the house. After the gunshot I was already outside and we were on our way out when Mdmase came. He told us that everything is done and then we left the place. MR SWANEPOEL How many of you were there at that time? MR NHLAPO There was a lot of us and I can't even remember the other people that's why I did not mention them because even the place that we were staying at, the danger zone, it's another place, it's a strange place. MR SWANEPOEL Now Jabu told this Commission ...(intervention) MR NHLAPO Yes it is dangerous. MR SWANEPOEL Jabu told this Commission that when he entered the house he fired shots and because of that all his comrades with the exception of Mdmase ran away. What do you say to that? MR NHLAPO Yes I agree. MR SWANEPOEL But yet your evidence is now that after Jabu left there were still a lot of you there? MR NHLAPO Yes that is correct. MR SWANEPOEL Could you explain that? MR NHLAPO It's not all of us who managed to run away. When we got into the house when he started shooting the other people got scattered all over and instead all of us managed to run away, I don't know where the others went to. MR SWANEPOEL Yes but Jabu's testimony was, that only Mdmase with the AK47 was left outside the door of the house. MR NHLAPO Will you please repeat the question? MR SWANEPOEL Jabu told this Commission that when he entered the house and started firing shots, all his comrades ran away and only Mdmase with an AK47 was left outside the house which is why you told Mdmase to go inside and finish the job? MR NHLAPO I do not understand when you say if he was outside the house or inside the yard. Please clarify that for me? ADV DE JAGER Mr Swanepoel, perhaps the crux of the matter is, was she caught and brought back and the only one except them who could tell us something about it is your client so what's your client's version, can you put it to the witness or to the applicant? CHAIRPERSON Or alternatively the other version is that the person that could have ran away may now be deceased? You yourself say that your client was rendered unconscious at some time. MR SWANEPOEL That is the difficulty I'm faced with Mr Commissioner, is that the full picture of events of that specific evening is not clear to my client. She remembers her sister being shot she saw her falling, she remembers herself being shot shortly after that and then she woke up in hospital. ADV DE JAGER I thought because she's living she must have been the one running away and that's not necessarily so. MR SWANEPOEL As you please. Mr Chairperson, the line of cross-examination is aimed at the credibility of this witness and if it's two directly conflicting versions. CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Swanepoel but the point of the matter is like we told you in chambers, that in our view the act as a particular purpose and if you have instructions to oppose the application, we would appreciate the fact that the opposition is based on facts, not an attempt to fish out possible problems that may not exist because that just wastes time. If there's something concrete with which you could oppose the application, by all means. MR SWANEPOEL As you please Mr Chairman. Do you know what happened to the two women that was kidnapped after the shots were fired and you left the house? MR NHLAPO Will you please repeat the question? Do you want to know whether I went inside the house and checked? Will you please repeat that one? MR SWANEPOEL I want to know if you know what happened to any of the two sisters after you left the house together with your comrades. CHAIRPERSON Even if you heard from somebody afterwards about what happened. In other words do you know if one died? MR NHLAPO Yes, when we left the house and the master told us both of them were dead but after some time we heard that only one of them passed away, the other one was still alive. MR SWANEPOEL And did you hear anything else that happened that night apart from the death of the one girl? MR NHLAPO No. MR SWANEPOEL I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL ADV DE JAGER Do you know anything about the fact that the two women were raped? MR NHLAPO Yes I heard about that the next morning. It was people who actually raped them were beaten, were shambokked and the commander instructed that they should be shambokked because the commander said it wasn't the order for them to rape, the order was for them to kidnap and kill. ADV DE JAGER How many people were shambokked? MR NHLAPO Two of them. ADV DE JAGER Who were they? MR NHLAPO Mdmase and Mafi. ADV DE JAGER Are they still alive? Mdmase, is he still alive? MR NHLAPO No and I don't know what happened to Mafi but I do hear from other people that he is still alive but Mdmase died. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Just one point, in your application you state that the incident occurred in 1993, was that a mistake? MR NHLAPO It wasn't a mistake, this thing happened in 1993. MS PATEL Your co-applicant in this matter stated that this incident occurred two weeks before the elections in 1994. Could you explain? MR SAMUELS I thought it was Embrose May who said that he attacked a Mozambican citizen in the week of April 1994. MS PATEL I'm sorry. Just for the record, how old were you at the time that this incident occurred? MR NHLAPO It's better if we start counting all of us because at the moment I'm 22. MS PATEL And regarding the people who were disciplined for this incident are you sure that it was only these two people? MR NHLAPO Yes I'm sure, I'm definitely sure about that, it was the only two. MS PATEL Was Mdmase inside the house at the time that the women were being raped, can you remember? MR NHLAPO Yes he was inside the house. MS PATEL Okay. Thank you Honourable Chairperson I have no further questions. ADV DE JAGER Mr Samuels, you'll have to address us on the question whether this application would cover this - the offences. MR SAMUELSS Yes, I will - up to all the hearings I heard, present formal argument on about three or four issues that have been raised. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) any murder, any attempted murder, any possession of firearms in this application at all? MR SAMUELSS Yes quite correct. CHAIRPERSON May I just add that after all the evidence is led I will expect argument immediately. CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MR SAMUELSS No I close my case for this applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED