amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-12-02 JISS CENTRE, JOHANNESBURG 4 C CHISOMA AM 7065/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53092&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/9811241202_jhb_981202ji.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Chisoma, what language would you prefer to use? MR CHISOMA Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any objections to the taking of the oath? C CHISOMA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. MR SAMUELS May I proceed? Mr Chisoma, are you 27 years old? MR CHISOMA Yes, I'm 27 years. MR SAMUELS And you belong to the ANC? MR CHISOMA Yes, that's correct. MR SAMUELS And during the 1990's you were a member of the SDU in Thokoza, is that correct? MR CHISOMA That's correct. MR SAMUELS Who was your commander? MR CHISOMA Meneer and Ben Mashile. MR SAMUELS Sorry, Mr Chairman, I think I've got to ask - the offences that this application applies for are in fact three offences. They all relate to the same incident, that is the kidnapping, the murder of Mr Zulu and possession of an AK47. ADV DE JAGER Murder of? MR SAMUELS Mr Zulu. ADV DE JAGER Mr Zulu? MR SAMUELS Z-U-L-U. May I proceed? ADV DE JAGER And the third one is? MR SAMUELS Illegal possession of an AK47. CHAIRPERSON And what was the second one? MR SAMUELS Murder of Mr Zulu. Kidnapping, murder and possession. CHAIRPERSON And you say it's all one incident really? MR SAMUELS Yes, correct. May I proceed? Mr Chisoma, you're applying for amnesty for the kidnapping, murder of Mr Zulu and possession of an AK47, is that correct? MR CHISOMA That's correct. MR SAMUELS Where did Mr Zulu live? MR CHISOMA 611 Extension 2. MR SAMUELS And who was Mr Zulu? MR CHISOMA He was a member of IFP. MR SAMUELS I see. Now what orders did you get from your commanders? MR CHISOMA They said we must kill any member of Inkatha. MR SAMUELS I see. Now relating to this incident with Mr Zulu, in what year did it occur? MR CHISOMA In 1994. MR SAMUELS And approximately in which month? MR CHISOMA I can't remember very well, I think it was between March or April. MR SAMUELS Now who was with you on this day? MR CHISOMA Joseph Tamo, Veli Tsotetsi. MR SAMUELS Now describe in your own words what happened on that day. MR CHISOMA It was on a Saturday morning, it was myself, Joseph and Tamo and Veli Tsotetsi. We went to Mr Zulu's house and we took him from his house ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Did he go voluntarily or did you have to force him? MR CHISOMA We forced him because he didn't want to come with us because we knew him as an IFP member. MR SAMUELS Continue. MR CHISOMA We took him to Mbatha's house. This house had already been damaged and Veli shot him there. MR SAMUELS And what did you do? MR CHISOMA Veli shot him. MR SAMUELS Did you take part in the shooting as well? MR CHISOMA No, I had a gun as well but I didn't shoot him. Joseph held his hands and Veli shot him, but I also had a gun with me. CHAIRPERSON Did you associate yourself with what they were doing? MR CHISOMA Yes, because I also had an AK47. CHAIRPERSON No but even if you didn't have an AK, did you agree with what they were doing? MR CHISOMA Yes. He was an IFP member and I was an SDU, so we were all in this thing. Joe held his hands and me and Veli we pointed the guns at him but only Veli shot him. MR SAMUELS Did you know that being in possession of an AK47 was illegal? MR CHISOMA Yes, I knew. MR SAMUELS And finally, Mr Chisoma, another applicant, Vusi Gazide: G-A-Z-I-D-E, he will mention that you had handed to him a pump-action shotgun in about 1990, is that correct? MR CHISOMA It wasn't in 1990 when I gave him the gun. MR SAMUELS Sure. Which year was that? MR CHISOMA It was in 1994. MR SAMUELS Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Who was that person that ...(intervention) MR SAMUELS Vusi: V-U-S-I Gazide: G-A-Z-I-D-E. His application number is 7684/97. It will be a matter heard in chambers. Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence-in-chief for the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS MR SWANEPOEL No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Mr Chisoma, besides the fact that Mr Zulu was an IFP member, was there anything else that he had done or said that led you to killing him? MR CHISOMA We knew him from 1990. The reason we left our places and ran away, it was because of them, it was because of the IFP members. MS PATEL No, I'm asking about Mr Zulu specifically. Was there anything that he himself had done, who had participated perhaps in the activities of the other IFP members, that led to people having to leave their homes. CHAIRPERSON Why was it necessary to kill him, as opposed to telling him he must stop it? MR CHISOMA It wasn't easy to tell an IFP member to stop. We knew him as an IFP member and the reason we ran away in 1990 was because of them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know that but did Mr Zulu do any specific - I mean, if you killed Mr Zulu, would the IFP's power be reduced? What purpose did his death serve? Was he a leader of some sort or something like that? MR CHISOMA He was just a member of IFP, I won't know if he was a leader or not but he used to go to every Inkatha meeting. We used to see them. I was staying in Extension 2 and he was staying there. CHAIRPERSON What did you see? MR CHISOMA What they were doing to us in 1990. CHAIRPERSON So you killed him, when? MR CHISOMA 1994? MR CHISOMA In 1994. CHAIRPERSON So you killed him for something he did in 1990? MR CHISOMA He was still a member of IFP and he was still participating as a member. CHAIRPERSON And what was he doing as a member? MR CHISOMA When they attacked Polla Park, he was one of them. We knew him all along as an IFP member. CHAIRPERSON I'm not interested in whether he was an IFP member or not, I want to know if there is any other reason, other than his membership of the IFP, that he was killed? MR CHISOMA He ran away when we wanted to kill him and when he came back we got hold of him. MS PATEL When did he run away? You didn't mention this in your evidence-in-chief. Is the same incident or is it a separate incident? CHAIRPERSON Well let's put it this way, what has his running away got to do with the matter? If he ran away then he wasn't a threat to you. MR CHISOMA In his house there were too many Inkatha members. CHAIRPERSON So? MR CHISOMA People from Polla Park came and burn down the shacks in his house and that's when the violence started. CHAIRPERSON Did you have any other private matter against him? MR CHISOMA The only thing I know about Mr Zulu is that he was a member of IFP. CHAIRPERSON And so you killed him? MR CHISOMA Yes, we were given orders that we should try to eliminate Inkatha members in the township. MS PATEL Why did you choose him specifically? I mean, he's the only person that you've applied for, so there must have been a reason for you choosing him specifically. MR CHISOMA That's because he was the only one we got hold of. If we could have got other members we would have killed them as well. CHAIRPERSON I have difficulty in accepting that. You went to his house to kidnap him, surely he was not the only IFP member you knew? Is that not so? MR CHISOMA Others were ANC members. CHAIRPERSON If there was only one IFP member in Polla Park then there wouldn't be a war, would you agree? MR CHISOMA Others ran away. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you go to another IFP member's house, why Mr Zulu specifically is the question? Why didn't you kidnap somebody else, another member of the IFP? MR CHISOMA In my section it was only Mr Zulu who was an IFP member, the rest had run away at that time. CHAIRPERSON And it took four years to go and kidnap him? He must have been very illusive. MR CHISOMA ...(no English translation) CHAIRPERSON I don't get that. MR CHISOMA Would you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON How come then if Mr Zulu was your target, that it took you four years, almost four years to get him? He must have been very illusive, and if he was such a clever man to elude you, you catch him in his house. It doesn't make sense. Can you explain it? MR CHISOMA In those years, 1990, IFP members were the ones with guns. We didn't have guns, so we didn't even try but in 1994 it was easy for us because in those years we also had guns. CHAIRPERSON Ja. 1994, that's three years and some months after he was party to chasing you away from your home, was he still an active member of the IFP? MR CHISOMA Yes, he was still an IFP member. CHAIRPERSON Now what did he do that irritated you in 1994, the time he was killed more or less, in those few months or weeks? MR CHISOMA It's what they've done in 1993. Some of them ran away. Those that I know from my section, it was Mduduzi and Mr Zulu and another man. CHAIRPERSON What did they do? MR CHISOMA We used to call meetings in our section and they never wanted to co-operate with us or with the community, and they supported Inkatha and they would tell the community that they were not involved in those meetings. And they had guns in those years, so we didn't have a chance to attack them. CHAIRPERSON But why would you want to attack somebody who refused to come to a meeting? What's wrong with saying I don't want to come to a meeting? MR CHISOMA He had done a lot from 1990. CHAIRPERSON That's what I'm asking, what did he do that you didn't agree with? You've told me now he refused to come to a meeting, that you didn't agree with, anything else that made him deserving of being killed and kidnapped? MR CHISOMA He's done a lot. We used to call meetings for youth and we never used to continue with those meetings because they would stop us, they never wanted the youth to hold meetings. CHAIRPERSON How would they stop it? MR CHISOMA They used to harass us. They would come with guns and we would be scared and ran away because we were scared. And in those years we didn't have guns. CHAIRPERSON I see. So he was seen as the disruptive force of your democratic processes, like meetings? MR CHISOMA Yes, he never agreed with what we used to do. CHAIRPERSON Anything else you want to mention about what he did? MR CHISOMA He will attend IFP meetings and I used to consider him as a leader because he never missed any IFP meeting. ADV DE JAGER But at that stage, a few weeks before the election in 1994, because you killed him in March/April '94 and the election was in April '94, there was already an agreement at Kempton Park, that all political parties would participate in the election and that they could hold meetings, even the IFP, was it necessary at that stage still to kill him? MR CHISOMA Meneer and Ben(?) had given us orders and they never came back to us to tell us to stop, therefore we didn't get that message that we should stop. ADV DE JAGER When did they give you the order to kill him or to kill IFPs? MR CHISOMA I'm not sure, I think it was four months before the incident. MS PATEL But Mr Chisoma, Meneer testified here yesterday, he made no mention of this in his testimony. If he had given you that instruction, surely he would have said it? He didn't apply for this incident either, for having instructed you to go out and kill. MR SAMUELS Sorry, may I be a bit difficult? There's a distinct between what a person says: "Go and kill IFP member or IFP supporters" and "Go and kill Mr Zulu". If Mr Xebe, Meneer, had specifically said that, in my submission that would have been an offence for which he would have had to apply for. In the case ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) is the question, Mr Samuels, why even at this stage was he not told that, look here your co-applicant is going to say this. MR SAMUELS No, that was my decision. My submission is that if person gives an order as far back as four months ago and a general order, it in itself doesn't link that person to the offence and that is why I did not lead him on that specific - it was only one fact, I appreciate that. In an attempt to be short and quick, I only focused on those issues that were led. I appreciate that it's not evidence in relationship to the applications but if it counts at all, it was my specific decision not to testify on that point, just simply because it wasn't relevant to Mr Meneer's, Mr Xebe's application and I wanted to just be specific on those issues. The hearing can consider that evidence whichever way it wishes, but that is my submission. ADV DE JAGER Mr Samuels, on a lighter note, I really enjoyed your remark "Mr Meneer", so he's now a double Meneer? MS PATEL Be that as it may, Mr Xebe yesterday did not mention that he, that there was a general order that he had given out for IFP members to be killed, regardless of whether there's a link between that general order and a specific incident, as this applicant is applying for. CHAIRPERSON Are you able to explain why he never mentioned it? MR SAMUELS Would you please repeat that one for me? CHAIRPERSON The Evidence Leader has asked you why Meneer did not mention that he had been party to giving a general instruction for the destruction of IFP and their members in the area, are you able to explain why he never mentioned it, or can't you? MR CHISOMA I don't know how to answer this question. CHAIRPERSON No, it's simple, can you explain why he didn't mention it, or can't you, or do you think it's his business? MR CHISOMA He only talked about one incident, he didn't mention the one of Mr Zulu. I don't know why he didn't mention that. ADV DE JAGER After killing Mr Zulu, did you report back to Mr Meneer? MR CHISOMA Yes, we went to his house afterwards. ADV DE JAGER And what was his attitude, what did he say about the killing? MR CHISOMA We told him in passing, and the soldiers were behind us, we were running away. ADV DE JAGER Ja, but did he approve of it, did he say it's alright that you did it? MR CHISOMA He only asked us if we've killed him for sure and we told him yes, we have already shot Mr Zulu and we ran away, we were looking for cover. MS PATEL Mr Chisoma, do you really want us to believe that the only person whom you were involved in the killing of, that you chose to report back to your commander whilst you were running away from the police, and that this serious matter was discussed under those circumstances? MR CHISOMA We were running from danger zone to the township. MS PATEL And you chose that particular time to report back to him, whilst you were running? I put it to you that Meneer probably doesn't even know of this incident and that is why he didn't mention it, and that there was no order or instruction to go out and kill IFP generally, from Meneer. MR CHISOMA Meneer knows about this. MS PATEL Alright, thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly clear up your answer on page 87. You were asked "Did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise?" And you said: "Yes." What benefits did you receive, or what did you try to convey to us there? MR CHISOMA This is a mistake. ADV DE JAGER You didn't write it yourself, or did you? MR CHISOMA I was writing. ADV DE JAGER But you've made a mistake there? MR CHISOMA Yes, I've made a mistake. ADV MOTATA Did you understand the question asked there? MR CHISOMA I think I didn't understand the question. ADV MOTATA Now Mr Ben, did you tell him about the killing of Zulu, because you said you got the instructions from Meneer and Ben? Now you've told us that you told Meneer, did you tell Ben, Mr Ben? MR CHISOMA Meneer reported to Ben on our behalf. ADV MOTATA Were you present when he did so? MR CHISOMA There's no-one else who would have told Ben, Meneer was the one who was telling Ben. ADV MOTATA Are you thinking that, or are you assuming that Meneer would have conveyed that to Mr Ben? MR CHISOMA I know because Meneer was the one who was attending meetings, and he would go back and report everything to Ben. ADV MOTATA You said Mr Zulu was amongst the people who attacked Polla Park, do you recall saying that? MR CHISOMA You saw him in that crowd that was attacking Polla Park? MR CHISOMA Mr Zulu was staying in my section and I would see him all the time, so I've seen him. ADV MOTATA I see. In the crowd that was attacking Polla Park, I assume it was IFP attacking Polla Park, but I mean, did you see him in that crowd going to Polla Park to attack? MR CHISOMA Yes, I've seen him. ADV MOTATA Did you see anything that he did when he was amongst that crowd attacking Polla Park, did you see anything which Mr Zulu did? MR CHISOMA They went and attacked Polla Park and they burnt houses in Polla Park, and he was one of the people. ADV MOTATA Ja, but my question is simple, did you see him or did you not see him do anything? I know you saw him in the crowd but did you see him - let's take it that houses were burnt, but did you see him doing so or didn't you see him do anything? MR CHISOMA If you are with people who are armed and who are attacking, obviously you are an attacker yourself. CHAIRPERSON Mr Chisoma, we will decide that. The question is simple, that when you observed Mr Zulu in this crowd, did you see him do anything specific? MR CHISOMA I'm staying in Extension 2 and if you're going to Polla Park, there is no way you cannot pass Extension 2 and that. So ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON So when did you see him in the crowd then, did you not see him in the crowd? MR CHISOMA They will pass Extension 2 all the time and even if the police were trying to chase them away, they will come running. So I've seen Mr Zulu among the crowd or among the attackers. CHAIRPERSON Now did you see him doing anything specific while in that crowd? MR CHISOMA They were all armed, he was also armed and he was among them. CHAIRPERSON Is that all you can say about it? MR CHISOMA That's all I can say, that if you are armed and going to attack people, you are going to kill people. ADV MOTATA And lastly, Mr Chisoma, turn to page 83 which will lap over to 84. Did you understand question 8(a) because they are asking you there "If you are/were an officer/officer bearer, employee of the State or any former State or if you are/were a member of the Security Forces of the State or any former State, state the Department/Division." And you ...(indistinct) employer." That's your answer to that question: "Your employer." Did you understand what was required of you there? MR CHISOMA I used to work at Coca Cola company. ADV MOTATA Do you understand the word: "Employer", what it means? What does it mean? Don't just nod your head because we've got a machine and it doesn't record the nods. MR CHISOMA Now I understand, it means "Employer". ADV MOTATA So you were none of that? MR CHISOMA In 1993 I was working for Coca Cola company. It was a contractual post. ADV MOTATA Do you know the difference between an employer and an employee? MR CHISOMA You mean and employer and an employee? ADV MOTATA Ja, that's right. MR CHISOMA I think I know the difference. ADV MOTATA Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions. ADV DE JAGER When was the attack on Polla Park? MR CHISOMA Would you please repeat your question? ADV DE JAGER When was the attack on Polla Park, which year? MR CHISOMA From 1990. ADV MOTATA No, but this one you spoke of where you saw Mr Zulu in the company of the people who were attacking Polla Park, when was that? We don't want generalities here because you mentioned a specific incident. MR CHISOMA Yes, it was in 1990. At that time we didn't have guns in the townships. They were the ones with guns. ADV MOTATA Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuels, any questions? MR SAMUELS I close my case for this applicant. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS PATEL Mr Chairperson, if I may, the victims's daughter is present. I just wanted to place her details on record. CHAIRPERSON You take the details and give it to us when we're finished all the evidence. Mr Chisoma, I just want to point out to you that we are not a Court of law, we don't represent the Courts, especially those before 1994. Do you understand that? MR CHISOMA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON And therefore you mustn't think you are on trial. Do you understand that? MR CHISOMA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON I get the feeling, during your testimony, that you want to prove a case and there are times that you don't want to answer certain questions that are very simple to answer. Now I'm not going to ask you why, I'm going to give you another opportunity to answer one specific question. We're trying to help you but we can't help you if you're not giving us the reasons to help you. During any of these marches or attacks in which Mr Zulu was a party, did you see him do anything specific? MR CHISOMA No, I didn't see him attacking as such but I've seen him armed. CHAIRPERSON And he was part of a group that were armed, and you assumed that they would attack because they were armed? It's a fair conclusion to come to, I must add. MR CHISOMA Yes, he was. CHAIRPERSON And how often did you see him in a group like that? MR CHISOMA I would often see him going with them and more especially going to IFP meetings. CHAIRPERSON Now I am sure that there were other people who were also in a similar position, that you would have seen going to these meetings and you would seen present and armed in these marches or gatherings of the IFP members, why did you choose Mr Zulu as a person to be kidnapped and killed, why not anybody else? MR CHISOMA I couldn't recognise others because others had ran away. Mr Zulu was in my section so it was easy for me to recognise him. CHAIRPERSON I see. Thank you, you're excused. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, could I just ... How old was Mr Zulu? MR CHISOMA He was big, I can't tell his age. ADV DE JAGER Was he an elderly man? MR CHISOMA Not that old. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON: Is that all your applicants? MR SAMUELS Mr Chairman, ...(inaudible). INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR SAMUELS ...(inaudible) three persons were prisoners and a few days later we in fact were informed that they in fact had been released and they were no more prisoners and therefore we should try and trace them in the normal method that we try. I've just been instructed this morning that in fact we found out that two persons are still prisoners. So in fact I think there may have been crossed wires between the two sides. For that reason, and I know that I've been given until 11 o'clock this morning ...(end of tape) ...(inaudible) if we don't my suggestion is that all matters that I haven't consulted with, I'm prepared to have those matters adjourned sine die and they can the place in the roll at any stage. I'm reluctant to withdraw persons whom I haven't consulted with because I don't know what a person is going to tell me in relation to the very general statements that person made in their papers. That is my only reason why I wish to ask for one last adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, those three people, were they given notice? MS PATEL If I may, Honourable Chairperson, Brian Kopedi from the ANC TRD desk had undertaken responsibility for services of all the notices for these matters. We were given no indication up until recently, that these persons weren't located. My instructions late last week was that these persons were in fact paroled and that we couldn't locate them. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS PATEL Well Mr Samuels will have to answer for that. They take the instructions from ...(intervention) MR SAMUELS Sorry, I didn't hear the question. CHAIRPERSON Where is Mr Kopedi? MR SAMUELS I have no idea. ADV DE JAGER If a person is out on parole, the officials must have his address because a person on parole should report frequently. So they must be able to trace them unless they've broken their parole rules and then they could even be rearrested. That may be the case, but it wouldn't solve our immediate problem. CHAIRPERSON You see this apparent disrespect for this process has gone beyond just an irritation. In their favour I must say, one doesn't know whether they did in fact receive notice but at the same time I don't want to over-extend this hearing, it's not really our fault. Mr Kopedi is the address chosen and by agreement he is supposed to do what is necessary. How long do want to find out where they are? MR SAMUELS If we have today, and by 9 o'clock - without any witnesses, I will be here to give an answer to a convened Court or hearing. CHAIRPERSON Why can't a couple of phone calls sort this out? MR SAMUELS Oh, we can try right now, yes, we will. I will keep you updated at 11 o'clock and at 1 o'clock and equally when we close this afternoon ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I said, just hold your horses. ADV DE JAGER We had a contact number at Correctional Services, the TRC. I don't what's his name, is he still operating and could he assist us perhaps? MS PATEL I will endeavour to get hold of our Investigative Unit who will make the necessary arrangements if possible. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) It's going to help me make a decision also. Of these three people, are there any one or more of them that have been mentioned during evidence that has gone by? MR SAMUELS No. CHAIRPERSON So if they are involved in hearable matters, it will be on their instructions only, not because other people had mentioned them? MR SAMUELS That's correct. CHAIRPERSON I certainly hope Mr Kopedi is not going to charge for the days of this hearing because he's put in no work. Ja, I hope that is conveyed to him, Ms Patel. MS PATEL I'll ensure that it is. CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuels, ...(inaudible) MR SAMUELS As the Court pleases. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS PATEL Yes, Mr Shein is ready to proceed with his clients.