amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-01-19 VEREENIGING 2 BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE 6131/97 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53117&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99011827_vrn_990119ve.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I take it you are ready to start? ADV PRIOR Mr Chairman, before we proceed, today being the 19th of January 1999, may I take the liberty of handing over as Evidence Leader to Mr Zuko Mapoma, who is the new Evidence Leader, I will still remain on to assist the Committee where necessary. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Prior for your assistance, yes. The applicants are still busy with their case. Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the next witness or applicant I am calling is Bhekinkosi Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, are the applicants who were not here yesterday, here today? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the majority of the people are here today. The two people from Kroonstad prison, are apparently on their way. We just had a, my Attorney just phoned the prison and they said they left some time ago, so I expect them to be here any moment. That is Timothy Stalls Mazibuko and Jack Mbele. CHAIRPERSON From which prison are they, from Kroonstad? Now what about Magubane and Mkwanazi? MR STRYDOM As far as Mkwanazi is concerned, I have absolutely nothing to say about him, he was in custody. Apparently he was released. There was no further contact with him since the previous hearing, and I can't state anything about his whereabouts at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Mr Magubane? MR STRYDOM Mr Magubane's situation is a bit difficult because I again, personally, phoned the Klerksdorp prison who said that the last time he was there, was when he was booked out to come here on the 3rd of July last year, and he was sent to the Vereeniging prison, but according to the Vereeniging prison, he is not there. I don't know if he was released at a certain time, I cannot image so because he is not out on bail on the criminal case in the Boipatong matter. CHAIRPERSON Or he may simply have disappeared into the system? MR STRYDOM It seems so, but we are following that up. CHAIRPERSON What about those applicants who were not here yesterday, Moses Mthembu, Sipho Buthelezi, Petrus Mdiniso, Mxoliseni Mkhize, Richard Dlamini and Paulos Mbatha, are they here? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the following people are here today: Moses Mthembu, Petrus Mdiniso, Paulos Mbatha and Richard Dlamini. The people who aren't here ... CHAIRPERSON Mxoliseni Mkhize and Sipho Buthelezi? MR STRYDOM That is indeed so, and Mr Tshabangu, but he already testified. He is also not here. CHAIRPERSON Was he here yesterday? MR STRYDOM No Chairperson, he wasn't here yesterday either. CHAIRPERSON Let me get a note of that. His name is Mlupeki Tshabangu, yes. Shall I make a note of that? Now, these four applicants who are here today, who were not here yesterday, what is their explanation for not being here yesterday? MR STRYDOM They told me that on the previous occasion, only the date was mentioned, but not the venue. My Attorney last week made contact with Mr Tshabangu, he is the only person with a telephone, to inform the other people about the venue. Mr Tshabangu is not here, but the people inform me that they did not get the message that the resumed hearing will take place at the same venue, and they were uncertain as to where it was going to be and that is why they weren't here. CHAIRPERSON How did they know that it is here today? MR STRYDOM The people that were here yesterday, went out yesterday to notify them. CHAIRPERSON What steps did they take to find out from their Attorneys where the hearing was going to be? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, they did not contact me or my Attorney as far as I am aware. I can just mention that these people, they don't have telephones. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Moses Mthembu, Moses Mthembu is here? Petrus Mdiniso, Richard Dlamini, Paulos Mbatha? What steps did you take to ensure, to find out where the hearings were going to be held? MR MTHEMBU I am Moses Mthembu, as a person who is an employee, I was expecting to be told just where the venue would be. I did want to know, but I could not find out, and even where we stay, we do not have a telephone. I had assumed that the lawyer, our Attorney, would actually come to us to inform us, but I was determined and I was prepared to come here. I am very sorry. MR MDINISO I had expected that the Attorney normally tells us just where the venue would be, but this did not happen this time. Also the reason that we do not have a telephone at home, we could not contact him, and I did not come because I did not have knowledge where the venue was. I do beg your pardon. MR DLAMINI I am Richard Dlamini, the same thing happened to me as well. I was prepared to come, but I did not receive information about the venue. CHAIRPERSON What is amusing, I see you smiling? MR DLAMINI I am sorry for not showing up yesterday, I had thought that our Attorney would come to inform us about the venue, but he did not come. MR MBATHA I am Paulos Mbatha. I beg your pardon, I was away at home in kwaZulu Natal and came back on Sunday and our car broke down along the way, and I arrived late in Johannesburg. CHAIRPERSON For the record, the explanation for not being present here, given by Mthembu, Mdiniso and Dlamini is not acceptable. You are the applicants in these matters, it is your responsibility to find out where the hearings are, not that of your Attorney. If your Attorney doesn't contact you, you must make every effort to make sure that you find out where the venue is because otherwise this interferes with your colleagues who are in custody and in whose interest this matter was be expedited. It has been going on for some time. Whilst you may not necessarily be responsible for the delay yesterday, but I think it ought to be mentioned, that in future, you've got to take every effort to ensure that you are here so that your application can be proceeded with. Do you understand that? Yes, I accept the explanation by Mbatha that the car broke down, and therefore he could not be here yesterday. Mr Strydom, you may proceed. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson, I am calling the next applicant then, Mr Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON In view of the fact that it is probably unbearably hot, please feel free to take off your coats. How are we going to deal with Magubane and Mkwanazi? MR STRYDOM In the light of the fact that they are legally represented, I will ask that the hearing continues in their absence, I am sure that they will be here very soon. I was referring actually to the people from Kroonstad. CHAIRPERSON No, I mean the others Magubane and Mkwanazi. It seems to me that perhaps what we - we propose proceeding with the applications of those who are present here and if we come to the end of the hearings, and both Magubane and Mkwanazi are not here, we would propose to struck their applications off the roll at that stage. What is your attitude Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I will go along with that because there may be an explanation, so I would not like that the applications be struck off now, before I get instructions and find out why they are not here. We can only find that out in due course. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I accept the position. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, what is your attitude? MR BERGER We are quite happy with that position Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well, we would proceed then. Would you proceed? MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. I am calling Bhekinkosi Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Just for the purposes of communication, channel 2 is English, channel 3 is Sotho and channel 4, is Zulu. Mr Mkhize, what language are you going to speak? Please stand up, please give us your full names? MR MKHIZE Bhekinkosi Mkhaklazeni Mkhize. BHEKINKOSI MKHAKLAZENI MKHIZE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may sit down. ADV SIGODI Sorry Chairperson, I noticed that in your application, there is the name Mbekiseni, is that also your name? MR MKHIZE No, it is Bhekinkosi. ADV SIGODI So the name Mbekiseni, we should scrap? MR MKHIZE That is not my name. CHAIRPERSON Please raise your voice when you speak so that everybody at the back can hear what you are saying, and please speak slowly and take note that there are Interpreters who interpret what you are saying into English and Sotho, therefore you should also give them an opportunity to interpret what you are saying. If you do not understand a question, ask them to repeat it for you. Yes Mr Strydom, you may proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, you applied for amnesty and you have filled in a so-called Form 1. I want you to have a look at the document on page 61 of the index. MR MKHIZE There is a noise in the headphones. INTERPRETER There seems to be an interference in his headphones. MR LAX Can the Interpreter just talk? INTERPRETER In English or Zulu? MR LAX It doesn't matter, just so that we can see, there is obviously something wrong with that headphone. INTERPRETER Can anybody hear me? MR LAX We can hear you fine, thank you. Can you hear us now, Mr Mkhize? MR MKHIZE Yes, I can hear you. MR LAX Okay. MR STRYDOM I was referring to the Form 1, on page 61, 62, 63 and with the annexure on page 64 and 65. Firstly I want you to have a look at your signature on page 63, do you identify your signature? MR MKHIZE That is my signature. MR STRYDOM Then I want to refer you to the annexure, setting out certain of the answers in more detail. Do you confirm the contents of this document, has it been explained to you? MR MKHIZE I think yes, I do, because I signed the document. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what is your standard of education? MR MKHIZE Standard 2. MR STRYDOM Certain further particulars were asked and you provided your legal advisors with answers and you stand by the answers as contained in the bundle, on page 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74? Has it again been explained to you? Do you confirm the correctness of your answers? MR MKHIZE Although I cannot be absolutely certain because I cannot read, but I hope that that is indeed my responses. MR STRYDOM Then I want to refer you to the affidavit you have made on page 75, 76, 77, 78 of the bundle. Do you confirm that that is your signature on the last page thereof? MR MKHIZE Yes, I do. MR STRYDOM Are you a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR MKHIZE Yes, I am. MR STRYDOM For how long have you been a member of that party? MR MKHIZE I think it is about ten years now, because I joined even before I came to Johannesburg. MR STRYDOM Approximately when did you come to Johannesburg, how many years ago? MR MKHIZE I came to Johannesburg in 1975. MR STRYDOM Where did you come from? MR MKHIZE From Mahlabatini. MR STRYDOM When you came to Johannesburg, initially where did you stay? MR MKHIZE I stayed at Sebokeng hostel. MR STRYDOM At a certain stage you moved over to the kwaMadala hostel, when was that? MR MKHIZE It was in 1990. MR STRYDOM In your affidavit, on page 75 you stated that you moved into the hostel in 1992. Is that date correct or not? MR MKHIZE Although I cannot be absolutely certain, I think it was in 1990. What I know is that I moved from Sebokeng hostel into kwaMadala. MR STRYDOM Why did you move to kwaMadala hostel? MR MKHIZE We were actually chased out of the hostel by the ANC. MR STRYDOM Do you know why the ANC chased you out of the hostel? MR MKHIZE They attacked us because we were IFP members and because we were also Zulu's and at that time Zulu's were no longer permitted to be in Sebokeng. MR STRYDOM Was any of your property damaged whilst you were still in Boipatong, by ANC members? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM Can you briefly state what happened? MR MKHIZE My fridge and my car were damaged, they were actually burnt, and also my clothing, bedding, household goods were also burnt. Some they confiscated and some they burnt. MR STRYDOM During that time, where did you work? MR MKHIZE I used to work at Metal Box. MR STRYDOM Are you still employed by Metal Box or not? MR MKHIZE No. MR STRYDOM Why did you leave your employment there? MR MKHIZE I was being sought after, because I was alone there and I decided to flee and leave my employment. MR STRYDOM In the kwaMadala hostel, did you hold any leadership position? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM What was your position during 1992? MR MKHIZE I was the leader of AmaButho. MR STRYDOM Can you just briefly state what does the AmaButho entail. MR MKHIZE I was responsible for everything that went on in the AmaButho. MR STRYDOM Can you give me examples, what were your principal responsibilities? MR MKHIZE I was responsible for the welfare and the well being of AmaButho. CHAIRPERSON What you are being asked is to tell us very briefly what you would do as Indunas? What did you do? MR MKHIZE At that time, I was the Commander of AmaButho, everything that had to do with AmaButho, was my responsibility. Even when we went to rallies, I would lead the AmaButho in those rallies. MR STRYDOM During 1992, could people living in the kwaMadala hostel, move freely to Boipatong and other towns in the Vaal Triangle? MR MKHIZE It never used to happen. If you went out, you would have to do so in a group of eight to ten. You could not walk alone because if you actually went alone, you won't return, you will be killed. MR STRYDOM What was the hostel residents' attitude towards this situation? MR MKHIZE They were very unhappy about the situation, because they could no longer go out to the shops, there was nothing that one was free to do. Even if you wanted to go to town, you were unable to do so. Some of us were actually taken hostage in town. MR STRYDOM In your affidavit on page 76, you make mention of a meeting that took place in the hostel approximately one week before the attack on Boipatong. Can you give us more detail about what happened at this meeting? MR MKHIZE At that meeting, that meeting was actually held to discuss the issue of the people who were being killed. I was actually being asked what I was going to do about it, because people were being killed in town. They had actually come to complain to me, what was I going to do about the situation and they wanted me to advise on what to do. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person by the name of Damara Qunchu? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know him very well. MR STRYDOM During that period, what was his position? MR MKHIZE He was my assistant. MR STRYDOM As a result of all the complaints and the meeting that was held approximately one week before the attack on Boipatong, what was decided to do about the situation? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR STRYDOM You already told the Committee that you as the leader of the AmaButho received all these complaints from the residents and they asked you what are you going to do about it. The question is, what did you do about it? MR MKHIZE Because of the pressure that I was under, I asked them to give me some time because I could see that even my life was threatened, until such time that we took the decision that we should attack, because I could see that people were being attacked and my life was even threatened by the people that I was staying with, because I was now under pressure to act. MR STRYDOM And in which manner did you act? What did you do, what did you decide? MR MKHIZE I told Qunchu that there is no other way except to attack, because the people are complaining and I also realised that my life was in danger, therefore we should just attack and we agreed about this with Qunchu. MR STRYDOM We all know that the attack took place on the 17th of June 1992. When was the, when did you have this discussion with Qunchu? MR MKHIZE Although I cannot remember correctly, but it was just a few days before. I cannot say precisely what the date was. CHAIRPERSON When you say your life was in danger, and therefore you decided to tell Qunchu that you better launch an attack, your life was in danger from whom? MR MKHIZE The hostel residents from kwaMadala could have attacked me. MR STRYDOM After your discussion with Qunchu, did he agree that Boipatong should be attacked? MR MKHIZE Yes, he did. MR STRYDOM Who was responsible for planning the attack in more detail? MR MKHIZE It was myself and Qunchu, but I was the one who had the responsibility of doing it and Qunchu was my assistant. I was his Commander. MR STRYDOM Was there any other leaders or senior people responsible for the decision, the decision now to attack Boipatong? MR MKHIZE No, none. MR STRYDOM During the week preceding the attack, was any other leadership structures informed and notified about the decision to attack Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR STRYDOM I want to know after your decision, your and Qunchu's decision to attack Boipatong, did you take it up with other senior people or other leaders for instance in the IFP? MR MKHIZE No. Not even one of them. MR STRYDOM Weapons were used during the attack on Boipatong. Can you tell the Committee who was responsible to get the weapons and to distribute the weapons? MR MKHIZE I cannot say because it was dark, but I know that I had a firearm and I also know that some other people also had firearms, but I cannot tell who had what weapons. MR STRYDOM The question really is, before the attack, to gather weapons, who was responsible to make sure that when the attack comes, that there will be weapons? MR MKHIZE We already had weapons. MR STRYDOM These weapons, do you have knowledge where they came from? MR MKHIZE We used to actually collect money and buy these weapons. The person who was responsible for actually buying these weapons, was Mr Qunchu. MR STRYDOM And these weapons, did they include AK47 rifles? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM On the 17th of June, the attack took place. What I want to know now, what happened just before the attack, what happened in the hostel? How did it come that everybody left the hostel and moved towards Boipatong? MR MKHIZE We rang an alarm to call everybody to gather at one venue, from where we moved on to launch the attack. MR STRYDOM Who rang the alarm? MR MKHIZE Even though I would not be in a position to know, it was at night, but I had already instructed that we should go out and launch the attack. CHAIRPERSON Who was having this alarm? MR MKHIZE That is exactly what I am saying, it was at night, and therefore I am not in the position to say exactly who was ringing the alarm. CHAIRPERSON Was there anyone in the hostel perhaps who was charged with blowing this trumpet? MR MKHIZE I moved from one hostel apartment to the next, informing people. CHAIRPERSON Is there any particular person who used to go around using this trumpet or alarm to ring it so as to inform people to come together? MR MKHIZE Yes, there was one person responsible for that duty, but he was not available that day if I still remember very well. MR LAX Just, if you will allow me Mr Strydom, sorry, everyone talks about this alarm. What exactly was it? Some people talk figuratively about a trumpet. Just explain to us what kind of alarm was it, how did it work? Was it electronic, was it a siren? What was it? MR MKHIZE We have a trumpet and we also had something that looked like a speaker. Those are the things that we used. The speaker would sound like an alarm and this would inform people about a gathering. MR LAX So it was like a loudhailer from the way you are demonstrating with your hands, that had an alarm sound? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX And then in addition to that, there was a trumpet, an actual trumpet? MR MKHIZE Yes, we also had a trumpet, but on that day, I cannot be certain as to whether we used the trumpet or not, or whether we used the other system. MR LAX Sorry, you didn't give someone a specific instruction to go and sound the alarm, or did you? MR MKHIZE No. MR LAX Who made the decision that the people should be called at a certain time and that the alarm should be sounded? MR MKHIZE I did that. MR LAX So then you did give someone an instruction to do that? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM This alarm, is it called a Megaphone with an alarm at the back of the Megaphone? MR MKHIZE Yes. Even though I would not know exactly, but it is an alarm system, you can carry it around and speak through it. MR STRYDOM It is one of those instruments where you can speak into it and you press the button and you speak into it, and it enhances the sound? MR MKHIZE Yes, exactly. MR STRYDOM At the back of this instrument, there is an alarm. You put that alarm on, the alarm will sound through this microphone or the speaker actually, through the speaker? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM When this alarm went off, let me ask you this way, normally when the alarm goes off, what will the residents of the hostel do? MR MKHIZE We used to use it when we were going to rallies or attending urgent meetings. MR STRYDOM Will the people gather when they hear the sound? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM Where will they gather? MR MKHIZE There is a stadium inside the hostel, at the kwaMadala hostel, that is where we used to gather for meetings. MR STRYDOM On this particular night, did the people come to the stadium? MR MKHIZE Yes, they did. MR STRYDOM Were you at the stadium when the people arrived? MR MKHIZE Yes, I was present. MR STRYDOM Did you address the people as they were coming in the stadium? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did. MR STRYDOM What did you tell them? MR MKHIZE I told them there was nothing else to do, except for attacking. MR STRYDOM Attacking which place? MR MKHIZE Boipatong. MR STRYDOM Did the people initially arrive with weapons at the stadium, or not? MR MKHIZE Some of them were not armed, some were armed. Some suggested that we wait for them, because they were still going to fetch their arms. MR STRYDOM And the women and children, what happened to them? MR MKHIZE We told them to go back to their houses, because it was not necessary for them to be there, we only wanted males. MR STRYDOM Apart from the arms, did the people wear any identifying marks or things like that? MR MKHIZE Yes. We used to use head bands. MR STRYDOM What was the purpose of the head bands? MR MKHIZE The purpose was for us to be able to identify one another. MR STRYDOM Still there at the stadium, when you said that Boipatong should be attacked, did you give any detail as to exactly how Boipatong should be attacked, or will be attacked? MR MKHIZE No. I cannot remember very well, but yes, I remember that I indicated that we are going to enter Boipatong. Nothing else was going to be done, except to attack. We were aware of the existence of the Defence Unit members at Boipatong, and these are the people who were responsible for burning people. MR STRYDOM Who led the people out of the hostel en route to Boipatong? MR MKHIZE It was myself. MR STRYDOM Were you armed? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM What kind of arm did you have? MR MKHIZE I had an AK. MR STRYDOM Now, I want you to tell now in your own words what happened just prior entering Boipatong. MR MKHIZE When we arrived, we waited for others to arrive and thereafter we entered. There were many of us and some of us had been left behind, but we waited for them and when they arrived, we then got entry into Boipatong. MR STRYDOM Did you give any further instructions at that stage? MR MKHIZE I cannot remember very well, but the only instruction was that we should now enter, because we were going to fight. We were tired of these people, we were dying every day, we were being killed, and we had to go and attack. MR STRYDOM In your own mind, you say that you wanted to attack and the people wanted to attack Boipatong, can you describe what you thought, what kind of attack would take place? MR MKHIZE Would you please repeat the question. MR STRYDOM You testified that you were going to attack Boipatong. In your own mind, what was your decision, in which manner were you going to attack Boipatong? MR MKHIZE We were going to avenge the death of many of our people, and we too, had to do the same attack and kill. We just went there to avenge the death of our fellow members. MR STRYDOM In your own mind, who would be the victims of the attack? MR MKHIZE What I had in my mind, was that people who were attacking us, were the Self Defence Units. We had already heard that they were patrolling the streets at night, and these are the people that we wanted to attack and kill, because they were the ones who were burning people. MR STRYDOM These Self Defence Units, do you know at that stage, who was actually supporting them or responsible for them to be established? MR MKHIZE I am not in the position to say, I don't want to tell a lie. I have no idea, but yes, we know that the people who were in charge of the township, were the Self Defence Units. MR STRYDOM How well, at that time, did you know Boipatong, the township itself? MR MKHIZE Yes, I knew Boipatong. MR STRYDOM Did you know the name of the streets? MR MKHIZE No, I did not know the names very well. The one street that I knew, was only one Mzimvubu and Majola I think. That was the street that I knew very well, not the others. It was a township where I used to catch a bus, the form of transport to work. MR STRYDOM I want you to explain how Boipatong was entered on that night. MR MKHIZE As I have already explained, we just gained entry into the township, but I cannot remember what street we used to gain entry. I did explain that I do not know the streets quite well. MR STRYDOM Can I ask you this way, did you enter from Vanderbijl Park's side or the factory side? MR MKHIZE From the main road from Vanderbijl Park, that is the direction that we took, and we proceeded towards the township. MR STRYDOM That main road, is that called Frikkie Meyer Boulevard? MR MKHIZE I think so. Even though I do not know the name quite well, but I am referring to the big road with the traffic lights. The one that is going to Sebokeng. MR STRYDOM Tell me, would you be in a position to explain to the Committee you have followed in Boipatong itself, after you entered Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Yes. I know the route that we took. MR STRYDOM Would you be able to explain the route if you looked at a map? Would you be able, if you look at a map, to explain the route, or won't you be able to? MR MKHIZE I don't know, maybe I will be able to identify the route. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I think the Exhibit number is J, I just want to make sure, I just want to get my Exhibits at the back. I am going to show you a map of the Boipatong, if you just want to orientate yourself, and look at the map. Do you understand the map? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM Just to make sure that you understand the map, Frikkie Meyer Boulevard is to the left of this map, to the side, and the hostel is further to the left. Do you follow that? MR MKHIZE Yes, I do follow that. MR STRYDOM Do you know the portion of the township called Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you see Slovo Park on the right hand side of this map? MR MKHIZE Yes, now I think I see where it is. MR STRYDOM During the course of the attack, did you go into Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE Yes, we did. MR STRYDOM We have already heard evidence of two groups, is that indeed so that there was a split up at a certain stage and two groups were formed? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM Were you leading one of the groups? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM Who led the other group? MR MKHIZE I think it was Qunchu because I never got to see him again. He was not in my group certainly. MR STRYDOM Yes. With reference to Exhibit J, can you state the approximate route that was followed by your group? MR MKHIZE I think we were further down and the other group was further up. We took the downward direction and there were no other people further down, except for ourselves. MR STRYDOM Did your group follow a route towards Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM Shortly after the two groups entered Boipatong, what happened if anything? MR MKHIZE I cannot remember quite well, but when we arrived near the shops, we came across the Self Defence Unit members from whence we started exchanging gunfire and they ended up fleeing. MR STRYDOM Did you use your AK47 to shoot? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM Which direction did you shoot? MR MKHIZE I shot towards the Self Defence Unit members. MR STRYDOM Do you know if you hit anybody by shooting? MR MKHIZE No, I do not have information to that effect, but I can assume that people must have been shot because it was at night. Yes, we did see some shadows. MR STRYDOM After that first shooting incident, what happened? What did you do with your group? MR MKHIZE We proceeded on towards the downward direction, running after them, and they fled towards Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM Did you go into any houses at any stage whilst you were at Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Yes, some people got into houses, but I did not because we were making sure that some of our own, are not attacked from behind, so we had to remain behind. MR STRYDOM Did you personally see anybody who was attacked and killed or injured? MR MKHIZE No. No. I only discovered the following morning, that there were many people who were really injured. MR STRYDOM Who was responsible for breaking all those windows in the township? MR MKHIZE I would say some of the people in our group, did that. It was damaging and damaging all the way. MR STRYDOM Did you see any person or anyone of the attackers, in possession of any goods, stolen goods or things like that? MR MKHIZE Yes, I only - well, I can say I did not see them quite well, but I only learnt the following day because when we got into people's apartments the following day at the hostel, we learnt that some people brought home stolen property, but they had hidden some of these. That was not our instruction and that was not my instruction. MR STRYDOM You refer now to instruction, can you just tell us more about the instruction you gave during the course of that night? MR MKHIZE The instruction was that we should go and attack and kill and that is all. We were meant to kill the people who were killing us all the time. MR STRYDOM When was this instruction given? MR MKHIZE The instruction came out when we left the hostel for Boipatong. I indicated that we had no alternative. We had to avenge. MR STRYDOM Approximately how long did this attack take place, before your group left the township again? MR MKHIZE I would not be certain, but I think it could have been one and a half hours to two hours, but it was not a very long time. That is just but an estimation. MR STRYDOM During this period that the attack took place, did you see any military or police vehicles in the township? MR MKHIZE No, I did not see any police or military vehicle, except for the one vehicle that we saw on our way out from the township. This vehicle was coming from the Vanderbijl direction. That is the only vehicle that I can recall. MR STRYDOM Would that include Slovo Park, did you see any vehicles in Slovo Park, military or police vehicles? MR MKHIZE No. MR STRYDOM Before the attack was there any discussions with any police or military people, to assist you and the other attackers during the attack? MR MKHIZE How could we have invited the police whilst we were on our way to attack and kill people? The police were obviously against that and therefore we could not have invited them to be part of us. MR STRYDOM After the attack, did you re-enter the hostel at the main gate? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM You made reference to certain goods that were found in the hostel afterwards. What happened to those goods, stolen goods? MR MKHIZE I did indicate that I only heard that there are some stolen goods, but I was not able to point them out. We only heard about this, and we moved around, looking for these stolen goods, but we were not able to find any. Some of the people had burnt some of these stolen goods. I am not in the position to say, therefore, that I found a particular item in a particular house or apartment. It was at night, and there were so many people. MR STRYDOM Do you know who gave the instruction that stolen goods should be burnt? MR MKHIZE No. MR STRYDOM I know not of anyone. I don't think it could have been anyone, except that they on their own, may have decided that if I happen to see this, I will not be in agreement with it. MR STRYDOM Mr Themba Khoza, as far as you know, was he aware of the attack prior to the attack? MR MKHIZE No, he knew nothing. Khoza does not reside here, he would only come once to deliver a message or informing us about a meeting, but he does not reside here. In some instances, we would go and report to him what was developing, but he knew nothing and he could not have condoned this attack. MR STRYDOM Afterwards, during any meeting that could have taken place, did Mr Themba Khoza in your presence, tell the residents to burn the looted or the stolen goods? MR MKHIZE No. He did not instruct anyone to that effect, except that maybe he might have told them in my absence, but I do not recall at any instance, him informing the residents to burn all the stolen property. The one thing that I remember him saying was that the police are present and we should cooperate with them, we should not fight them. MR STRYDOM After - let me ask you in this way - you testified that you heard later on that a certain amount of people were killed in the township, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM Did you expect that any amount of people could be killed on that particular night? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR STRYDOM In retrospect, thinking back now, how do you feel about the whole situation that so many innocent people got killed? MR MKHIZE I felt very bad after the incident, because I discovered later that some of the people who died, were not necessarily the people who were attacking us. Some of the people who were really attacking us, escaped unscathed. People who were really involved or responsible, fled and that made me feel bad. That is why I am before this Committee today, to seek amnesty. I feel very sorry because we did not manage to get all the people who were responsible for us being attacked. MR STRYDOM On the night of the attack, was Mr Vanana Zulu, Prince Vanana Zulu, was he present? MR MKHIZE No. If I am not mistaken, he had gone home. I am not sure whether that was the first or the second week that he was absent. What actually led to us to launching the attack, was because he was against us launching that attack and he wanted to actually discuss the matter with the township residents, and that is why we decided to launch the attack in his absence. That is when we actually got the opportunity to be able to launch that attack. MR STRYDOM A person by the name of Victor Keswa, I think his nickname is Katisi, was he there that night of the attack? MR MKHIZE No, he was not. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, that last answer was not translated. INTERPRETER I apologise. CHAIRPERSON Repeat the answer. MR MKHIZE I said Mr Keswa was absent. I cannot recall whether he was in hospital or in prison. MR STRYDOM You gave evidence in your defence during a criminal trial, and you denied that you know anything about the attack. Why did you do that during the trial? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR STRYDOM At the criminal trial, you denied that you have any knowledge whatsoever about the attack. Why did you do that? MR MKHIZE I think that was because of the situation at the trial, I did not want to be convicted. MR STRYDOM I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are there any questions from the (indistinct) side, Ms Pretorius? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS As the Chair pleases. I would just like to know Mr Mkhize, you say you left your job because you were all alone, what did you mean by that? MR MKHIZE There was no other Zulu person there, or anybody else who belonged to the IFP. I was just the only one. There was no other IFP member or anybody who also came from kwaZulu Natal. Therefore there was no one to protect me. The only thing I could do, was to flee. MS PRETORIUS What were you scared of at the time, at your employment, who were the people you were working with? MR MKHIZE All the employees at Metal Box, were ANC members. I was the only Inkatha member. MS PRETORIUS You would not move freely in the Vaal Triangle, you had to be a group of eight or ten when you went out. If you were alone, you would be killed. Who would kill you? MR MKHIZE It was the ANC members. MS PRETORIUS In Boipatong, you say that you do not know who was in charge of the SDU's. I think the question is not the person, but who was the organisation who was in charge of the SDU's? MR MKHIZE I do not have knowledge, but what I know is that the SDU's were ANC people. That is what I know. MS PRETORIUS When Katisi or Victor Keswa was in hospital, was he also in custody at the same time? MR MKHIZE That is the period I was referring to, that I am not certain whether he was in hospital or in prison. I am not sure. MS PRETORIUS No, the question is, even when he was in hospital, was he in custody at the time? MR MKHIZE I think so. MS PRETORIUS I have no further question, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Da Silva? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA May it please you Mr Chairman. Do you know a gentleman called Daniel Mabote, or Themba Mabote? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR DA SILVA Did he participate in this attack? MR MKHIZE Yes, he did. MR DA SILVA I understand from the evidence of the other applicants that after the attack, directly after the attack, a group of people gathered in a veld west of Boipatong, between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct? That was immediately before the group crossed over Frikkie Meyer Boulevard? MR MKHIZE I think there was a group that did meet there. MR DA SILVA Do you remember if Mr Themba Mabote was armed? MR MKHIZE Yes, he was armed. MR DA SILVA Do you recall what type of weapon he had with him? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR DA SILVA At the criminal trial, Mr Holi Bajozi testified that Themba Mabote fired in the direction of a military vehicle. Did you see that happen? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember. MR DA SILVA I do not have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Yes Ma'am? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Are you aware of a resident in the hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga. MR MAPOMA Excuse me Ma'am, maybe if you can place yourself on record. If you may place yourself on record. MS TANZER I do apologise. My name of Goldie Tanzer. I am an Attorney at law and I am representing I think the 17th applicant in this matter, Andries Matanzima Nosenga. Should I repeat the question? Are you aware or did you know a resident at the kwaMadala hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know him. MS TANZER So then you wouldn't know whether he took part in this Boipatong attack? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know because I don't even know him, so I won't know even if he was present. MS TANZER You said that you felt that your life was threatened. In what way was your life threatened in the hostel, prior to the attack? MR MKHIZE I did explain that the residents could have attacked me. The people I lived with at the hostel, nobody else. MS TANZER Were you receiving personal threats of any kind? MR MKHIZE Yes, I was. MS TANZER By how many residents, by everybody, by one, by two? MR MKHIZE It was the residents. I cannot point out specific individuals, but it was the residents who were complaining about the attacks that were carried out on them. MS TANZER In what way were they threatening your life? You said that they were threatening your life. What did they intend to do to you, what did they say they were going to do to you? MR MKHIZE What I was explaining was that I felt that my life was in danger, I could have been killed at any time. MS TANZER Where did you get the weapons from? MR MKHIZE I did explain that the person who was responsible for it, was Mr Qunchu. He had knowledge of where the weapons came from, but we actually collected money to buy those weapons. MS TANZER From who was the money collected to buy the weapons? MR MKHIZE We, the residents of kwaMadala hostel, used to pay. MS TANZER So you obviously weren't aware from where the weapons were bought, who they were bought from? MR MKHIZE No, I do not have knowledge of that. MS TANZER Is it not correct that two meetings actually took place prior to the attack? In fact one meeting took place about two weeks before the attack in which the anger was expressed and then a meeting took place about two or three days before the attack, in which the attack was planned? MR MKHIZE I would not dispute that, because there were many meetings that were held, where people were complaining. A number of meetings were called, because of the situation. Whether there were two or three or even more than that, I cannot recall. MS TANZER At any of these meetings, were any policemen present? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MS TANZER At any of these meetings, were any police or military present, at these meetings that were held? MR MKHIZE The police would not attend those meetings. We would not invite the police when we were actually planning to launch an attack on people. MS TANZER When the siren rang, did the people all come, the residents come wearing their head bands, or did they put them on at the stadium? MR MKHIZE I told them that they should go and fetch their head bands. MS TANZER And when you made your way to Boipatong, did you go by foot or was there any kind of vehicle in which you - accompanied you? MR MKHIZE We walked. MS TANZER And on your way, you met no policemen whatsoever, or any military? MR MKHIZE No. I did mention that we did not meet any policemen. We saw the police when we were actually leaving the area. I cannot say whether they were police or military personnel, but the only people we saw, we actually saw them when we were returning from Boipatong. MS TANZER At the meeting prior to the attack, did you drink any kind of muti and incite the residents to go and kill? MR MKHIZE Yes, we normally used muti. MS TANZER At this meeting, did you tell the residents only to tell the members of the Self Defence Unit or to kill anybody they saw? MR MKHIZE We told them to kill only the SDU members. MS TANZER How many residents did you need to kill the SDU members? How many members actually attended this attack? CHAIRPERSON What is the question? MS TANZER The question is how many residents of the hostel were sent to kill the members of this SDU? MR MKHIZE All the men who were present at the hostel. I am not sure of the number of the people who were there. MS TANZER Approximately how many residents did go to Boipatong with you? MR MKHIZE I do not want to tell lies, but we were many. I cannot specify the number. MS TANZER As you entered Boipatong, did you all go together or did you split up in different streets? MR MKHIZE We split up. MS TANZER Was each group that was split up, were they led, was there a leader allocated to them? MR MKHIZE There were only two groups. I think the other one was led by Damara and the other one was led by myself. MS TANZER If there were only two groups, there must have been what, something like 40, 50 members in each group? There must have been a group of about 50 people? CHAIRPERSON Where do you base that? Where do you base that? MS TANZER Excuse me? CHAIRPERSON What is the basis of those figures? MS TANZER The basis is, if he says many residents from the hostel went to Boipatong, and they split into two groups, then each group has to have amounted to quite, several amount of people. CHAIRPERSON Where do you get the figures 40 to 50? As I understand his evidence, it is that every member, resident of the hostel, went out. He doesn't know how many were there, he is not in a position to estimate, but there were many of them. On what basis do you say that there were 40 to 50 in each group? MS TANZER As the Chairman pleases, I am just surmises 40 to 50, there could have been much more than that. That was just a guess. I withdraw that question. CHAIRPERSON You don't have to withdraw the question, unless you have proper basis for suggesting those figures. It may well be that those are your instructions. I assume, are those your instructions? MS TANZER My instructions are that in fact they split up into many groups, each group taking different streets in fact, and not, there was no mention of two groups. My question really is if they were split in two groups, that would have to be a huge amount of people in each group, which almost would be uncontrollable. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I think perhaps what you should do is where your instructions differ from his evidence, perhaps you should put that. MS TANZER As the Chairman pleases. I put it to you according to the 18th applicant's version, Andries Nosenga, that in fact you were split up into little groups, smaller groups and each were attacking different streets, different houses in different streets and that there were about six, seven members in each group and it wasn't two separate groups completely. MR MKHIZE What I can say is that that person doesn't know what he is talking about. There were only two groups. I do not even know who that person is. What he is telling you, maybe is what he has just surmised, but it is not a fact. CHAIRPERSON Are your instructions that there were approximately many groups, is it into many groups? MS TANZER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that in each group there were approximately six or seven people? MS TANZER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that those groups went out, entering various houses? MS TANZER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I see. At what stage were those, did the group split into those different groups, right from the beginning or perhaps the moment when they entered the township? MS TANZER Well, according to Mr Nosenga's version, it is from the beginning. I in fact put it to you that as you left the hostel, you were met by policemen in three or four caspirs, that actually accompanied you to the hostel. MR MKHIZE Is that what Mr Nosenga is saying? That is not true. Maybe he alone was with the police, but we did not have policemen at our company. He doesn't know what he is talking about. The police were never present when we went there. CHAIRPERSON How many caspirs were there? MS TANZER Excuse me? CHAIRPERSON How many caspirs were there according to Mr Nosenga? MS TANZER According to Mr Nosenga, there were about three to four caspirs, accompanying the members. He is not exactly sure, but he is definitely sure of the caspirs being present. I further put it to you that at the meetings prior to the attack, that in fact according to Mr Nosenga, a policeman named Peens, came to the meeting and basically encouraged this attack and advised that there would be assistance from the police in the carrying out of the attack. MR MKHIZE I think that Nosenga is trying to confuse you. That is all lies. There was never a white person, nor a policeman, when we went to attack. CHAIRPERSON The meeting that Mr Nosenga is referring to, is that the meeting, the very last meeting from which they just went on a rampage? MS TANZER No, in fact the meeting that he referred to was the meeting before the last meeting in which the rampage was discussed, the attack was actually discussed in detail. According to Mr Nosenga, in fact your versions are very similar, except for the fact that he submits that policemen did accompany you to the Boipatong and in fact took part in the attack at Boipatong. MR MKHIZE I think he just hates the police. That is all lies, he is just trying to implicate the police. They were never involved in the attack. CHAIRPERSON Are you putting it to this witness that Nosenga says his version, and that of the witness, are the same excepting for the presence of the police? MS TANZER That is correct Mr Chairman, they were primarily the same. They might differ in very insignificant ways, but generally the story is the same. CHAIRPERSON From what you have just put to the witness, it seems to me that they differ. MS TANZER Mr Chairman, Mr Nosenga states basically the way the attack took place, the calling to the stadium, the meetings, the proceeding to Boipatong itself, was generally the same until they reached the street, then they were accompanied by caspirs. Some of the residents in fact, got on the caspirs. He in fact, got into one of the caspirs himself. He can identify the other people plus policemen that were with him in the caspir and basically as they arrived in Boipatong, how they were off-loaded at the street and they went into the houses. CHAIRPERSON Those two versions can't be the same then. They differ fundamentally? Anyway. MS TANZER As the Chairman pleases. CHAIRPERSON Put this to the witness. MS TANZER I put it to you that according to Mr Nosenga, that you were accompanied by policemen, headed by one Mr Peens to Boipatong, that you were accompanied with caspirs and that in fact some of the residents ... CHAIRPERSON Ma'am, would you please bear in mind that we have the Interpreters who still have to interpret? Just put it bit by bit if you don't mind. MS TANZER I put it to you that you were accompanied by caspirs, driven by policemen. MR MKHIZE What Nosenga is saying, is all lies. He is going to be arrested and convicted, because he is lying. MS TANZER Mr Nosenga further says that he entered a caspir, driven by - well, he entered a caspir in which Mr Peens and some other policemen were also in that caspir. MR MKHIZE Are you referring to Mr Nosenga? Is he the one who got into the caspir? MS TANZER That is correct, amongst others. MR MKHIZE I will not dispute if he says he went into a caspir, but with regards to other people who were present when the attack was launched, no one went into a caspir, there was no policemen, there was no caspir. MS TANZER According to Mr Nosenga, in fact, he can remember the following people in the caspir, one Katheni, Rubin, Themba Kubeka, one person known as Lucky, Sipho. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) MS TANZER Katheni, according to Mr Nosenga it is Katheni. Katheni, and I said Ruben. These are people known to him as Ruben, Themba Kubeka, a person named Lucky, a person named Sipho, a person named Makuka who he said was later killed in the hostel. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MS TANZER Makuka. A person named Tsamo, a person named Dondo who he said was leading his group and somebody named Makeze. The spelling might not be correct Mr Chairman, but that is what I was able to obtain from Mr Nosenga. In fact, according to Mr Nosenga, as they entered the caspir, the caspir was - the policemen there were in civilian clothes and they included a Mr Peens, that he had recognised from the meetings, a person named Shaka. Shaka he had known because he had recognised him who had arrested him in the past, and a policemen known as Rooikop. MR MKHIZE That is all lies. I am not even going to comment on it, because it is not true. MS TANZER According to Mr Nosenga, when the looting took place from the houses, televisions, videos and other such items were taken and in fact, they were put into the caspirs and they were not carried back to the hostel, but they were actually put into the caspirs, which were taken to the hostel. MR MKHIZE I have no knowledge thereof. MS TANZER Is it correct that after the attack, Mr Themba Khoza praised the residents of the hostel for the attack and the success of the attack? MR MKHIZE No, that is not true. Mr Khoza has never referred to this incident and he did not know what was going on. What he said was that he would like us to cooperate with the police. He actually left that message that we should cooperate with the police. He actually called us directly and gave us that message. With regards to him praising us, I have no knowledge thereof. MS TANZER Is it not correct that several weeks after the attack, you in fact went to Ulundi to celebrate the success of the attack? MR MKHIZE After the attack? MS TANZER Yes? MR MKHIZE We were actually arrested after the attack. We were arrested about three days thereafter, or maybe about a week thereafter. When would we have gone to Ulundi then? MS TANZER How many people were arrested at the time? MR MKHIZE About 80 people. Although I cannot specify the correct number, but we were about 80. MS TANZER I put it to you on Mr Nosenga's version that a few weeks after the attack, he accompanied many others to Ulundi, where in fact he was praised at the rally for the attack and for the success of the attack. MR MKHIZE He must have gone there alone to receive those praises. We were already in prison by that time. MS TANZER My final question is, the Boipatong attack, do you think that was a random attack or was that planned? Was that a random action or was it a planned action? MR MKHIZE It was both planned and random because people had been complaining for quite some time that they are being attacked and killed and were actually confronting me on what to do, because they were no longer free to move around. That is where the planning was involved. That is, we planned to attack Boipatong. MS TANZER Do you take personal responsibility for the innocent lives that were lost as a result of this attack? MR MKHIZE Yes, I do. MS TANZER No further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I have no question at this stage. Perhaps I may have a question after cross-examination by the victims' legal representation. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, we intend taking a tea adjournment at this stage, and coming back at eleven o'clock. Will that be in order for you? MR BERGER That will be in order, yes, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will take a tea adjournment and come back at eleven o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Do we need all these lights, because I think they are just aggravating, can't we just switch them off, because I think they are just aggravating the situation. It is unbearably hot here, and these lights are just making the situation worse. MR MAPOMA I am not sure Chairperson, it all depends to the TV personnel. I think it depends on the TV personnel, I do not know how much light they need, perhaps I might find out from them. CHAIRPERSON I think we should, if we just have the minimum light that is necessary for them to carry on with their business, without interfering with ours. BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, do you want to commence with your cross-examination? MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I have literally just been handed a statement, I believe that you have also just been handed a statement. CHAIRPERSON Which statement is that? MR BERGER It is a sworn statement, I guess it is an affidavit by Mr Andries Matanzima Nosenga. I believe my learned friends have all been handed copies as well. CHAIRPERSON ... that is contained in this document? MR MAPOMA Sorry Chairperson, we have not yet handed the statement in, we have just received it when the Committee was just coming. I've got the statement, the copies with me now, I can hand them in to the Committee. It is an addition to the bundle of documents that are here. CHAIRPERSON The affidavit that is contained here, is not signed. MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. MR BERGER Chairperson, I am loathe to do this, but from a brief reading of the statement, I have read a couple of paragraphs, it would appear that there is a lot in the statement that I will need to put in cross-examination of the witness. I can start. CHAIRPERSON Please get on, and if it is necessary, we will give you the opportunity to go through the statement and your colleagues who are with you in this matter, can read the statement in the meantime and then take over the cross-examination at some point. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER As you please Chairperson. Mr Mkhize ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before you commence, shall we - what was the last Exhibit number? I take it that this statement is being handed in as part of the application of Mr Nosenga? MS TANZER It is Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Add it to the addendum to the Boipatong index, which is the last bundle of documents, and according to my numbering, this document goes up to page 17. Shall we then mark this one - does it go up to 23, right? Is it necessary to give the addendum a separate Exhibit number? MR BERGER I suggest it would be Chairperson. We handed in our memorandum, that was O, I don't know if there were any Exhibits after that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it would be P. The reply would then we Exhibit P. MR BERGER Chairperson, there were two replies, so might I suggest that the reply by the applicants be Exhibit P, that the reply by the SANDF be Exhibit Q and then the addendum will be Exhibit R. CHAIRPERSON The SANDF reply would then be Q, right? The addendum to Boipatong index, which consist of the application by Nosenga and the accompanying documents, shall be marked Exhibit R . Yes, very well. Yes, Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, you have told the Committee that you were the leader of the AmaButho. How did that fit in to the other structures at kwaMadala? MR MKHIZE Which structures? MR BERGER Were there any other structures besides the AmaButho in kwaMadala? MR MKHIZE Yes, there was a youth leadership and the middle leadership and that later on, that of AmaButho. MR BERGER Who was in charge of, who was the leader of the youth leadership? MR MKHIZE I wouldn't know exactly, but the one that I still remember is Mr Buthelezi. MR BERGER Which Buthelezi is that? MR MKHIZE There he is. MR BERGER You are pointing to somebody in the audience. Is it one of the applicants? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Where is he, in which row? MR MKHIZE There he is. CHAIRPERSON Do you his first name, do you know his name? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is his name? MR MKHIZE He is Mqambileni Buthelezi. Nicholas is his other name. MR BERGER And he was the leader of the youth in the hostel? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER And that was an IFP structure, am I correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Then you said there was a middle committee. Who was the leader of the middle committee? MR MKHIZE It was Prince and ourselves. We were part of that leadership. MR BERGER That is Prince Vanana Zulu that you are talking about? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER You say it was he, yourself and anyone else in the leadership? MR MKHIZE Yes, there were several others, but the one who was above us all was the Prince himself. MR BERGER Can you give the names of the others? MR MKHIZE That is not easy, I have forgotten them, it has been a long time now. MR BERGER Surely you can remember the other people who served with you on this committee, being the leaders of the IFP in the hostel? MR MKHIZE Yes, but then we did not know one another quite well. I am from Mahlabatini and often times, they used to refer to me as Mkhize, they don't know my name, and I know them as Zulu, Shohesa, Mtjale, etc, and therefore it is not easy for me to know their actual name, apart from the surname. They too, like Prince Zulu for example, he is the one who knows what my name is and my surname. CHAIRPERSON All that you are being asked is to give us the names of the other committee members, whether you knew them by surname or by first name, it doesn't matter. All that Counsel requires is for you to tell us who else was a member of that committee, do you understand the question? MR MKHIZE Yes. It was the Prince himself and Shohesa. I am very sorry, I cannot remember the others, it has been a long time since. CHAIRPERSON You have said Zulu Shohesa, is there any other person that you can still recall who was a member of this committee? MR MKHIZE Yes, there are others that I can remember, but the problem is that I cannot recall them now, but when I see them, I can recall that they were part of the committee. We have gone our separate ways. We left and I went to stay at a different place. We are no longer together. MR BERGER Mr Mkhize, you served on this committee from 1990, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, if I am not mistaken, that is correct. I think it was round about October. MR BERGER You served on the committee for almost two years before the massacre, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER And the only people whose names you can now recall as being co-members with you on the committee is Prince Vanana Zulu and a man by the name of Shohesa. That is all you can remember? MR MKHIZE Yes, these are the names that I can still recall. The reason being that it has been a long time, and also the fact that we no longer reside in the same hostel. We are now around Sebokeng and some of them have remained behind at kwaMadala hostel, that is why I have lost their names. I can only remember when I go back to the hostel, see them and I can recall that they were part of the committee. Some came from Nongoma and I come from Mahlabatini. MR BERGER Is Shohesa amongst the applicants, is he present in the hall today? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER You mentioned Zondo and Mtjale, were they also on the committee? MR MKHIZE No, I was just giving an example to the fact that we used to use our surnames to refer to one another. MR BERGER Was this committee also known as the Steering Committee? MR MKHIZE I do not get it quite well. MR BERGER Do you know about the Steering Committee? MR MKHIZE It was a committee that was responsible for the residents of the hostel. MR BERGER Were you also on that committee? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Who else was on that committee? MR MKHIZE I have said earlier on that the Prince, as well as Shohesa. I cannot recall the others, I cannot recall their names. MR BERGER If I am correct, when you refer to the Steering Committee and the middle committee, you are referring to one and the same committee, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER You see, you were asked that question on page 66, paragraph 5, please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and your answer, page 70, paragraph 5, Moses Mthembu, Vanana Zulu and myself, although I played just a minor role on this committee. Is that answer correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Did you forget about Moses Mthembu? MR MKHIZE Yes. I did point out that it has been a long time since this happened. We then parted ways and it has been a long time since we parted ways. Not that I am trying to hide something. Moses Mthembu was actually more on the side of the firm than us. MR BERGER Mr Mqambileni Buthelezi was asked the same question at page 50, question 3. He was asked please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and his answer which is at page 53, paragraph 3, is that the members were Moses Mthembu, Ntuli, Mkwanazi and Shohesa. You can see some of the names are the same as you have given, some are different, but he leaves you off this committee. My question to you is who really was serving on this Steering Committee or middle committee? MR MKHIZE You have already referred to Mkwanazi, yes, now I can remember that Mkwanazi and Ntuli were part of this committee. MR BERGER Where is Ntuli now? Ntuli? MR MKHIZE I think he is on retirement or pension, but I am not quite sure. MR BERGER And Mkwanazi? MR MKHIZE Yes, he is still around. MR BERGER Is that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi? MR MKHIZE No. No, I do not know his name quite well, I just know he is Mkwanazi. MR BERGER Apparently there was also a senior committee in the hostel, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Who served on the senior committee? MR MKHIZE This is the very same committee that I am talking about, there was no other committee above it. MR BERGER So the committee that we refer to as the Steering Committee or the middle committee, was also known as the senior committee, would that be correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Have a look please at page 70 of the bundle of documents. You were asked in question 4 on page 66, to supply details about the structures of the various committees at kwaMadala. These questions were discussed with you by your legal representatives, am I correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And you then gave answers through an Interpreter which were then recorded from page 69 onwards, am I correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think so. MR BERGER You said there at page 69, paragraph 4.1 that there was a Steering Committee which was in control of the hostel. That is the committee that you have told us about where you were on, Vanana Zulu, Moses Mthembu and the others. You were all in control of the hostel, would that be right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Then you say in paragraph 4.2, the political structures were the senior men and the youth. The political structures had nothing to do with the management structure in the hostel. Are you saying that there were ISCOR structures, the committee that we have just referred to and political structures which were separate from those? MR MKHIZE I do not remember quite well. MR BERGER You say in paragraph 4.3 that the youth was responsible for the organisation of rallies, whilst the senior structure was responsible for discipline within the IFP party as well as decision making that relates to the IFP within the hostel. If I were to ask you who were the IFP leaders in the hostel, who would you say they were? MR MKHIZE I was one of the leaders of the IFP. MR BERGER And who else? MR MKHIZE People such as Mkwanazi and Shohesa and the Prince himself. MR BERGER And Moses Mthembu? MR MKHIZE Yes, and Moses Mthembu. But then I don't want to include him that much because he was working for the firm, he was working under the directorship of the firm. MR BERGER When you say in paragraph 4.4 the Steering Committee was ultimately responsible to ISCOR, the structure I was the leader of, was called AmaButho and in that capacity, I was the leader of the IFP in the hostel. As I understand your evidence now, you are not saying that you were the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel, you are saying, and if I am wrong, correct me, you are saying you were one of the leaders of the IFP in the hostel but there were others, such as Mkwanazi, Shohesa, Ntuli, Prince Vanana Zulu, would that be correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And who would be the overall leader of the IFP in the hostel, who would be the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel? MR MKHIZE It was Prince Vanana Zulu and Mthembu. Mthembu was in that senior position in so far as his job is concerned, being an employee of ISCOR. That is at least the knowledge that I have. MR BERGER And underneath Vanana Zulu and Moses Mthembu, who was next in line? MR MKHIZE It was Ntuli, Mkwanazi as well as Shohesa and then we would be just part of that list, at the bottom of those names. MR BERGER When you say we, you are referring to yourself? You would be at the bottom of that list of names? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And Damara Qunchu, he was not on that committee, he was your assistant? MR MKHIZE No, he was not part of this committee. MR BERGER Would it be correct to say that Damara Qunchu was the leader of the group of men that came from Umsinga to the hostel? MR MKHIZE That is not correct. MR BERGER I want to read to you what Victor Mthembu says at page 5, paragraph 5. Let me start with paragraph 4, he says the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu and a certain Mkhize who came from Umsinga. They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993. Do you have any comment? MR MKHIZE No, Qunchu did not hold any position at that time. MR BERGER No, no, you are not listening to what I am reading. I didn't read anything about Qunchu. MR MKHIZE Please repeat. MR BERGER Okay, I will read slowly. Mr Victor Mthembu says the following, he says that the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu, that is Mtwana and a certain Mkhize, who came from Umsinga. They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE I am aware that the Prince was the person responsible for the entire hostel. I am not aware of that Mkhize from Umsinga, because I am from Mahlabatini, not Umsinga. I know that I was an Induna at the hostel, but I do not come from Umsinga. MR BERGER Well the Mkhize that Mr Victor Mthembu is referring to, is you. You are the Mkhize he refers to. MR MKHIZE I do not dispute that, but I dispute the fact that that Mkhize came from Umsinga, I do not come from that place. MR BERGER He goes on in paragraph 5 and he says during 1990 Mkhize and Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga, kwaZulu-Natal to come and help us against the ANC. It is correct that you came to the hostel in 1990, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Is it also correct that Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga in 1990? MR MKHIZE That is not correct. Qunchu used to work at Cape Gate, he had been working there for a very long time. When the conflict started, he had already been there. MR BERGER He goes on to say that they came at the beginning of the violence in Sebokeng in 1990, after the ANC had started burning the houses of the Zulu's and members of the IFP in Sebokeng, which resulted in all the Zulu's and IFP members gathering at the kwaMadala hostel. Would that be correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, this did happen. We did meet and decide to stay in the hostel, because of the attacks that we were experiencing. Because of those attacks, we decided to come together and stay in the hostel. MR BERGER He says they were there from 1990 until 1993 when I was arrested, that was the last time I saw them there. I do not know who gave orders to Qunchu. Was it a secret that Damara Qunchu was your assistant? MR MKHIZE It was not a secret. MR BERGER Then in paragraph 6, Mr Mthembu says Damara Qunchu was the leader of the hit squads from Umsinga. He was the leader of the hit squad in the kwaMadala hostel as well. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE I am not aware of those hit squads. MR BERGER Was there a group of men, 40 to 50 men, who came from Umsinga to stay at kwaMadala hostel who were not working at ISCOR and who lived in the hostel and who were supported by the other residents in the hostel? MR MKHIZE That is not correct. There were people from Umsinga, but they were not more than ten. They could have been eleven at the most and I knew them. We are still staying with these people. They were not 40. No, some of them used to work in the taxi business, just like Mr Qunchu, he owned taxi's. MR BERGER You see, because Mr Victor Mthembu talks in great detail in his affidavit about this Umsinga contingent, and his version coincides with your version about paying money, or money being collected from the residents for the purchase of guns. He talks about it in paragraph 8 on page 6, he says that after the police had raided the hostel, no weapons were left and then this resulted in Vanana Zulu telling us that everybody had to contribute so that more weapons could be bought. Do you remember that? MR MKHIZE I don't remember it clearly. What I do remember is that I was one of the people who used to call meetings where we would discuss how much was required to buy those weapons. CHAIRPERSON Was there an incident when the police came to the hostel and confiscated firearms? MR MKHIZE The police normally came to the hostel and they would confiscate firearms. It used to happen quite frequently. CHAIRPERSON After they had been confiscated, would the residents of the hostel then collect money to buy further arms? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER And Vanana Zulu would attend these meetings, call upon the residents to contribute money so that weapons could be bought, is that right? MR MKHIZE I don't remember it that way. What I remember is that I was the person responsible for collecting or asking people to collect that money. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu says that the reason that he gave money and he talks about others also giving for the same reason, was that they were afraid that if they didn't give money for these weapons, that they would be killed by members of the Umsinga contingent. MR MKHIZE It could be, I cannot dispute what he is saying because as I also mentioned, I realised that my life was in danger. He could have realised the same thing. MR BERGER Well, that is exactly where I was coming to Mr Mkhize. You say that you launched the attack on Boipatong because you felt that if you didn't do that at that stage, you yourself could be killed by some of the hostel residents, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And was it not this Umsinga contingent that you feared would kill you, if the attack was not launched? MR MKHIZE No, I said it was the residents of kwaMadala. I did not refer to specific individuals. I just said it was the residents of the hostel. MR BERGER Well, which residents in particular did you fear might go so far as to kill you if an attack was not launched? MR MKHIZE It was the residents of kwaMadala hostel who were complaining of being attacked and killed. MR BERGER In the attack on the 17th of June 1992, did you feel that there was a group of residents in the hostel who were intent on killing you? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR BERGER Did you feel that if you had not launched the attack on the 17th of June 1992, that there was a group of residents whom you didn't know by name, who were intent on killing you? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER You made a confession or let me move away from a loaded word like that, let me say that you made a statement after your arrest to a Captain Radley, do you remember that, that was on the 11th of July 1992? MR MKHIZE I do not remember. MR BERGER Do you not remember making any statement to the police? MR MKHIZE I do not remember because we were assaulted by the police, because we were assaulted and we made several statements at the time. MR BERGER I am referring to Exhibit E which is currently before the Committee, perhaps if my learned friend, Mr Strydom, could place a copy of that Exhibit before you, I would appreciate that. If not, I will read it, it is fine. I will read it to you and then it will be translated. You say on page 4 of this Exhibit E, paragraph 12, that which I can say, happened on Wednesday evening. That Wednesday was the 17th of June 1992, it was just after nine o'clock in the evening. You are recounting what happened that night. So far what I have read to you, would that be correct? MR MKHIZE I am not sure. MR BERGER Okay, I will go on. You continue, you say I was at the kwaMadala hostel, I live there in a room, it is room number 8. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER That Wednesday at that time, I was at the stadium inside the hostel, that would be at about nine o'clock in the evening, you say you were at the stadium inside the hostel. Would that be correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Then you go on to say, I and other people who were living at that hostel, had decided that the people were preventing us from leaving the hostel to go to the shops, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER We then decided to attack the people who lived in the vicinity of the hostel. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER You can accept when I say the following, that there is no mention made in this statement of any other reason for the attack, other than the fact that people were being prevented from going to the shops. That was your sole reason as stated in this statement for the attack. My question to you is, why did you not make any mention of the fact that you launched the attack for two reasons, (a) because you, yourself were terrified that you would be killed if you did not launch the attack, and (b) that IFP members were being killed by people from Boipatong? Why did you make no mention of that? MR MKHIZE I think it was just an omission on my part. It is a fact that people were being killed. It is not something that I am making up. MR BERGER Is it a fact that, and I think your words were, IFP members were dying every day, being killed every day by people in Boipatong, is that a fact? You say yes? MR MKHIZE Yes, although it may not have been daily, but it happened frequently. MR BERGER In Boipatong? MR MKHIZE They were being attacked by people from Boipatong. MR BERGER You were living in the area, you say from 1990. Before you moved into kwaMadala, you were staying in Sebokeng, is that right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER At the hostel, kwaMasisa hostel? MR MKHIZE No, at Sebokeng hostel. MR BERGER You will know that many people were killed at the Sebokeng hostel on the 4th of September 1990, do you remember that? MR MKHIZE I do not remember it well. MR BERGER In fact a total of 43 people were killed and many were wounded. It was a confrontation between Inkatha, the IFP, and hostel residents at Sebokeng hostel. Do you not remember that at all? MR MKHIZE I remember that there was a lot of fighting at the hostel and when we were attacked and had to flee, a lot of people were killed. MR BERGER And you will remember that before that, on the 22nd of July 1990, there was an IFP rally in Everton, Zone 7, do you remember that? That was, if I am correct, the first IFP rally in the Vaal? MR MKHIZE It was not in Everton, but in Zone 7. MR BERGER Zone 7 Sebokeng? MR MKHIZE Yes, in Sebokeng. MR BERGER I beg your pardon. That was when the violence started in the Vaal, am I correct, after that rally or from the time of that rally, 22 July 1990? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER After the deaths on the 4th of September 1990, is it correct that there were many IFP members arrested including a person by the name of Sibusiso Qunchu? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And is it correct that Sibusiso Qunchu and Damara Qunchu are the same person? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And then there were many other incidents of violence that happened in Sebokeng, in Everton, around the Sebokeng hostel, but there was no violence around Boipatong, and I am talking now right up to the beginning of 1991. No violence around Boipatong, would that be correct? MR MKHIZE I would say that that is correct to a certain extent, because we were being attacked by the entire Vaal Triangle area. It could have been the people from Bopuleni, Boipatong or wherever else in the Vaal Triangle. Everyone who was Inkatha or Zulu speaking, was being attacked. MR BERGER Isn't the position rather Mr Mkhize, that the IFP had no real presence in the Vaal, prior to July 1990 and then after that rally, I beg your pardon, in July, the 22nd of July 1990, the IFP established a presence in the Vaal by continuously waging a war against the residents of the Vaal. Isn't that what was happening at the time? MR MKHIZE No, that is not correct. That rally was held to commemorate the burning down of our members' houses which had been burnt by the ANC members. MR BERGER And also I am referring now to the beginning of 1991, there was a gang operating based at kwaMadala hostel and headed by Victor Keswa, also known as Katisi. Do you know about that? MR MKHIZE I don't have knowledge thereof. MR BERGER You don't have knowledge about Victor Keswa at all? MR MKHIZE I know Keswa very well. What I know was that there was a gang that he was with, the people who came from the township. Whether he was their leader or not, I am not aware thereof. MR BERGER I am asking you whether you know that Victor Keswa's gang operated from kwaMadala hostel? Not that they worked at the hostel, that they were based, Victor Keswa and his gang were based at kwaMadala hostel and launched their attacks from kwaMadala hostel on residents of the Vaal? MR MKHIZE I don't have knowledge of that sort. If you have knowledge or evidence of such, I would not dispute it because they used to reside at the hostel. MR BERGER Victor Keswa and his gang did reside at kwaMadala hostel, is that what you are saying? MR MKHIZE Yes, they did reside at the hostel. MR BERGER Would you describe the AmaButho as the military wing of kwaMadala hostel, would that be a fair description? MR MKHIZE Yes, I could describe them as such. MR BERGER And so you were the leader of the AmaButho, you as the Commander, you would have been aware of what fighting units were resident in kwaMadala hostel and what they were up to, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I would have known, except in circumstances where a person was secretly involved in criminal activities. I knew all that there was to know about the AmaButho and the activities in the hostel. MR BERGER On the 12th of January 1991, there was a night vigil for Christopher Ngalembe and at that night vigil, the people at the vigil were attacked, 35 people were killed and over 40 people were injured. Do you know about that attack, it was in Sebokeng? MR MKHIZE I heard about it. MR BERGER And you also heard that Victor Keswa's gang was blamed for that attack, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, I heard about it. MR BERGER Do you know whether Victor Keswa and his gang were responsible for that attack? MR MKHIZE No, I do not have such knowledge. I was away at home at that time, I returned when they had already been arrested and their trial was in progress. MR BERGER Victor Keswa was released after that. Did you never question him about his participation in the attack? MR MKHIZE No, I never discussed it with him. MR BERGER Is that because you were afraid of him and his gang? MR MKHIZE No, he was a small kid. MR BERGER Victor Keswa was a small kid? Did you say Victor Keswa was a small kid? MR MKHIZE Yes, he was very young, much younger than I am. MR BERGER Did you know that amongst the people arrested in relation to the Ngalembe night vigil massacre, was Darkie Qunchu? MR MKHIZE Yes, I was aware of that. MR BERGER He was the brother of Damara Qunchu, Sibusiso Qunchu, right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER As well as Thomas Lukhozi, he was also arrested? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Was Thomas Lukhozi with you on the night of the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE I don't remember, but I think he was present. MR BERGER And Daniel Mabote, Themba Mabote, he was also arrested with Victor Keswa following the night vigil massacre? Is that correct? MR MKHIZE When those people were arrested, Victor Keswa was in hospital. MR BERGER That was in January, February 1991, am I right? MR MKHIZE Although I cannot remember quite clearly, but I do know that Victor Keswa was in hospital. MR BERGER Do you know a person by the name of Aaron Mtjale? MR MKHIZE What is the name again? MR BERGER Aaron Mtjale? MR MKHIZE Maybe I know him by another name. MR BERGER Is that not the Mtjale who served on the senior committee? MR MKHIZE I don't remember. MR BERGER Do you know of an incident which occurred between the 4th and the 10th of March 1991, where Vanana Zulu went with Inkatha members from the kwaMadala hostel to some shebeens in Boipatong, and threatened that Inkatha would invade residents to teach them a lesson? This is March 1991? MR MKHIZE No, I do not have any knowledge thereof. I don't remember ever having accompanied Prince Zulu anywhere. MR BERGER Well, did you ever discuss with Vanana Zulu, Prince Zulu, his attitude towards the residents of Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR BERGER Did you ever discuss Prince Vanana Zulu's attitude towards the people of Boipatong, did you ever discuss that with him? MR MKHIZE It was something that we used to discuss and he would tell me that we should wait a while because he was still trying to find a way of discussing this issue with the leaders from Boipatong. That is what we usually discussed with the Prince. CHAIRPERSON Did you say that Vanana Zulu would say to you, you must wait? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON What did the applicant want to do? MR MKHIZE We used to tell him that people were complaining that they were being attacked and killed daily and I was of the opinion that we should launch a revenge attack. The Prince said we should wait whilst he was still trying to meet leaders from Boipatong, with whom he will discuss this matter, so that the killing would stop. MR BERGER We are talking about the period 1990 to 1991, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Do you know a man by the name of Ernest Tsotso? Ernest Tsotso? MR MKHIZE I do not know him. MR BERGER Do you know the name of any leader of the ANC in Boipatong during the period 1990 to 1992 or even 1993? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know any. MR BERGER So you as the leader of the AmaButho, you did not know who was leading the ANC in Boipatong, you did not know any single member of the ANC in Boipatong, is that right? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did not know anyone. MR BERGER Did you make any attempt to find out who the leaders of the ANC in Boipatong were, who the leaders of the SDU's, Self Defence Units in Boipatong were? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. MR BERGER You never discussed it with Prince Vanana Zulu or Victor Keswa or anyone else? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. MR BERGER What position did Victor Keswa hold in the IFP, during the period 1990 to 1993? MR MKHIZE I do not know him to having had any position. I do not know if he had a position in the youth. MR BERGER You don't know that on the 3rd of July 1991, Mr Ernest Tsotso's wife, his daughter and his six year old son, were shot dead at their home in Boipatong? You don't know about that? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know about that. I may have heard about it, because there was a lot going on at that time, but I may not have known exactly whose family it was. MR BERGER The allegations were that Mr Victor Keswa and residents of the kwaMadala hostel were responsible for this attack on Mr Tsotso's family. Did that ever come to your attention? MR MKHIZE I have already said that I do not know about it. MR BERGER You see because Mr Ernest Tsotso was a prominent leader of the ANC in Boipatong at that time. You didn't know that? MR MKHIZE I have already mentioned that I do not know any leader, ANC leader, from Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, did you at any stage prior to the attack on Boipatong, receive information that there were people from the hostel who were attacking people in the township, from time to time? MR MKHIZE No. I did not. CHAIRPERSON Did you at any stage prior to the attack, hear that there were allegations that people like Keswa were attacking people in the townships? MR MKHIZE No. I did not hear about it. They may have done this covertly. CHAIRPERSON Well, I understand that you may not have been aware of those attacks, but what I am asking you is, did you at any stage hear of those allegations? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Have you ever heard that there were allegations that there were people such as Mr Keswa who would attack townships? MR MKHIZE No. I only heard after they were arrested. CHAIRPERSON As a leader of the AmaButho in the hostel, did you make any enquiries from Keswa about these allegations? MR MKHIZE I have never questioned him, because they did not reside at the hostel all the time. CHAIRPERSON Were you concerned about the allegations? You see, you were in charge of - were you in charge of AmaButho? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you said AmaButho were the military wing of the hostel? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON If an attack was to be launched, AmaButho would be involved? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So if there was an allegation that an attack had been launched from the hostel, would that not concern you that AmaButho would carry such an attack without your approval? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you not try to investigate about it? MR MKHIZE With regard to this instance, I was not able to investigate because no one claimed to have knowledge of that incident. CHAIRPERSON Did you investigate? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Did you ask anybody? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did discuss it with Prince Vanana and he didn't have knowledge of who had committed the act. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Victor Keswa and other residents of the kwaMadala hostel were arrested as you say, in relation to the Ngalembe night vigil, but they were then released and in fact, Prince Vanana Zulu asked the Court at their bail hearing, to release the accused into the car of the hostel dwellers at kwaMadala. Do you know about that? MR MKHIZE No. Victor Keswa was not arrested for that incident. MR BERGER What incident was he arrested for? MR MKHIZE I am not very sure. There were various crimes that he was arrested for, but he was not arrested for the incident at the night vigil, because he was in hospital. MR BERGER Do you know of an incident in July of 1991, where approximately 300 men from kwaMadala hostel attacked the residents of Boipatong? Do you remember such an incident? MR MKHIZE That is precisely the incident we are discussing. MR BERGER No, no, July 1991, about a year, eleven months before the massacre? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember that. MR BERGER Do you know a person by the name of Billy Mokuthedi? MR MKHIZE No, I do not. MR BERGER You don't know of the allegation that he was killed by residents of Boipatong, July 1991? MR MKHIZE The same Billy? MR BERGER Yes? MR MKHIZE Was he an IFP member? MR BERGER Would it make a difference? Do you know of a person by the name of Billy Mokuthedi who was allegedly killed by Boipatong residents? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know him. Maybe I do know him, it could be that I do not recognise the name. MR BERGER I am still in July of 1991, do you know anything about an incident where two people were killed and houses were damaged, when armed men went on the rampage in Boipatong, July 1990? This is now the 29th of July? MR LAX Did you say 1990 or 1991? MR BERGER I beg your pardon, 1991? MR MKHIZE I do not remember that incident. MR BERGER Do you remember a stay away that was organised by COSATU in August of 1991 where COSATU protested against ISCOR for allowing kwaMadala to be used as a base for attacks by members of the IFP on residents of the Vaal? I can tell you the stay away was on the 12th of August 1991. MR MKHIZE I do not remember. It could have been at the time when we were in prison. MR BERGER Unless you have been in prison for other offences, I am talking about August 1991, before the massacre, about ten months before the massacre? MR MKHIZE I do not remember. MR BERGER In the middle of August, the 15th of August 1991, between 300 and 500 Boipatong residents marched to ISCOR. They had a memorandum which they handed over to the ISCOR management, demanding the closure of kwaMadala hostel because kwaMadala was being used as a base for attacks by the IFP on residents of the Vaal. Do you remember that protest? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember. CHAIRPERSON Do you know that the, or were you aware at the time that the residents of Boipatong were unhappy about the fact that they were being attacked from kwaMadala hostel? MR MKHIZE Yes. There was a lot of conflict between us and the residents of Boipatong. I know that they were unhappy about us. We also were unhappy about them. MR BERGER No Mr Mkhize, the attacks were coming from the kwaMadala hostel. I will tell you the attacks from the residents of Boipatong. One I told you was in relation to the death of Mr Billy Mokuthedi, that was the end of July 1991. There had been attacks before that by certain elements in kwaMadala hostel on the residents of Boipatong and the residents of the Vaal in general, that is July 1991. The next incident in relation to Boipatong, was on the 12th of January 1992, when Mr Bongani Mbatha was killed. That was the next incident. So it is from July 1991 to January 1992 and during that time, and before July 1991, there are these attacks from kwaMadala hostel. Can you comment on that? MR MKHIZE I do not know about that. What I do know is that Bongani Mbatha was killed in Boipatong. MR BERGER And you know that he was killed on the 12th of January 1992? MR MKHIZE Are you referring to Bongani? MR BERGER Yes? MR MKHIZE I am not certain of the date, but I do know that he was killed in Boipatong. MR BERGER You said that you held meetings in the hostel, and residents were complaining about the fact that IFP members and supporters were being killed every day and you held one such meeting, two weeks before the attack on Boipatong, that would put it roundabout the 3rd of June 1992, am I correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did mention that there were several meetings that were held, although I cannot remember the exact dates of those meetings. Therefore I cannot say which meeting was on which date. MR BERGER But you do recall a meeting about two weeks before the massacre where residents were complaining about IFP members being killed by Boipatong residents, do you remember that? MR MKHIZE As I mentioned before, there could have been two or more meetings where residents had voiced these complaints. MR BERGER What I am more concerned about is the timing of these meetings. You conceded when you were being questioned by Ms Tanzer, that one such meeting could have been held about two weeks before the massacre where these complaints were being aired, am I correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I do not dispute that. What I am saying is I cannot remember exactly when these meetings were held. It could have been two or three meetings or more. It is not that I am denying that I said that before. MR BERGER From the 12th of January 1992 until June 1992, there was a lot of violence in the Vaal, Sharpeville, Sebokeng, but not Boipatong. Do you know of anyone who was killed, any IFP member who was killed in Boipatong or by residents of Boipatong after Mr Bongani Mbatha was killed and until the beginning, 3rd, 4th, 5th of June 1992? Do you know of any IFP member who was killed? MR MKHIZE Although I cannot be certain whether people were killed before or after the death of Bongani Mbatha, there were people who were killed in the township. MR BERGER Do you know of an incident on the 4th of June 1992, where four ANC members were allegedly kidnapped, tortured, taken to kwaMadala hostel and forced to join the IFP? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER I beg your pardon it was in May 1992, do you know about that? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know about it. MR BERGER The next IFP supporter to be killed, was Mr David Mbele, did you know him? MR MKHIZE I do not remember him. MR BERGER And he was killed on the 13th of June 1992. MR MKHIZE I do not remember him. MR BERGER There were other IFP members who were allegedly killed, I beg your pardon, there is one other IFP member who was allegedly killed on the 13th of June 1992 in Boipatong, a woman. Do you know of her? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know of a certain Nomvula. MR BERGER And then on the 14th of June 1992, a Mr Bea Khumalo was killed in Boipatong. Did you know Mr Khumalo? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did. MR BERGER My point is this Mr Mkhize, from the end of January 1992 until the beginning of June, in fact until the 12th of June 1992, no IFP members or supporters were killed in Boipatong. How then was it possible at a meeting held approximately on the 3rd of June 1992, for residents of the kwaMadala hostel to come and complain about members dying daily at the hands of residents of Boipatong, when in fact that wasn't happening on the 3rd of June, and hadn't happened for months before the 3rd of June 1992. That is my question. MR MKHIZE I do not believe that we would just go out and attack people without a reason. What I know is that we actually launched a revenge attack. MR BERGER Oh you had a reason Mr Mkhize, let me suggest to you what your reason was. Your reason was part of an IFP strategy for the Vaal, in fact for the Transvaal at the time, and that strategy was to import people from kwaZulu Natal into those areas, and let's concentrate on the Vaal, and to create chaos in the Vaal so as to destabilise the political processes that were on the way at the time. Wasn't that the whole reason behind this attack, this massacre on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992? MR MKHIZE That is not true. I regard it as an insult. MR BERGER Do you know what was happening at the time politically in the country, June 1992? Did you know about CODESA? MR MKHIZE I would hear about it although I did not know what was going on. I heard about CODESA. MR BERGER And there were negotiations underway, designed to produce a new constitutional dispensation for this country, to change the country from apartheid to a democratic South Africa? You knew that that was going on at the time, didn't you? MR MKHIZE No, I was not aware of that happening. MR BERGER And the attack on Boipatong, I am putting to you, was designed to derail those negotiations, wasn't that the purpose for the attack on Boipatong? It went far beyond you and the residents of kwaMadala, it was an IFP decision to attack Boipatong, so as to derail those negotiations? MR MKHIZE That is an insult. I regard it as an insult. MR BERGER All right, well, you yourself didn't want to attack Boipatong, am I right, you were forced to? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And these requests for action against Boipatong, were being made to you over a long period of time, over many months before the attack actually took place, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And you, as one of the most senior leaders of the IFP in the hostel, who did you discuss a potential attack on Boipatong, with? MR MKHIZE I already mentioned that I spoke to the residents, because the Prince who was actually the most senior person, was absent. Therefore I discussed the matter with the residents. MR BERGER Mr Mkhize, we are talking about leaders now. You have told the Committee that over many months, there was this feeling amongst the residents, I won't put it any higher than that, feeling that there had to be an attack on Boipatong. My question to you is, which leaders of the IFP, either in the hostel or outside the hostel, did you consult with at any time, before you decided to launch the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE I did not discuss it with any leaders. MR BERGER You knew that, this is according to you, that Prince Vanana Zulu was against an attack, correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER You were against an attack, you have already said that that is correct. MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Why were you against the attack and why was Vanana Zulu against the attack? MR MKHIZE The problem I had was that people were going to be killed, but I also felt that my life was in danger. The Prince can speak for himself as to his reasons for his unwillingness to go and attack Boipatong. MR BERGER Which people were going to be killed? You said you were against the attack, because people were going to be killed. Which people? MR MKHIZE I did mention before that it was members of the Self Defence Units. MR BERGER You were against killing them, but you decided it is better that they get killed instead of you getting killed, would that be fair? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And you were against killing them, because you thought, I ask you, that this would be contrary to IFP policy and would be counter to the aims and objectives of the Inkatha Freedom Party, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER You knew that Moses Mthembu was a senior member of the IFP in the hostel, am I right? MR MKHIZE He was not an IFP leader, but he was in a senior position under the ISCOR management. MR BERGER Why didn't you discuss a possible attack with him, or ways in which you could avoid attacking Boipatong? MR MKHIZE It was not easy for me to tell something of this nature to him, because he was elderly. MR BERGER Because he was older than you, you didn't discuss your fears in relation to an attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR BERGER Because he was older than you, you didn't discuss your fears with him in relation to an attack on Boipatong, is that your reason? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR BERGER Why didn't you discuss the problem with Mr Themba Khoza for example, he was a leader of the IFP in the Vaal, you knew that, you could have spoken to him? MR MKHIZE Themba Khoza was not a leader in the Vaal Triangle. MR BERGER What was Themba Khoza's position at the time? MR MKHIZE He was a senior leader in Johannesburg, in the Johannesburg area, not here in the Vaal Triangle. MR BERGER He used to come to kwaMadala before the massacre to speak to you, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER You knew where to get hold of him, you knew that he was a senior leader, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did know. MR BERGER Why didn't you contact him and say Mr Khoza, I am having problems here at kwaMadala, I need your assistance? MR MKHIZE With regard to IFP leadership, it is not easy for you to actually inform leaders that you intend killing some people. You only have to discuss such matters with people at your level. Mr Khoza was a senior leader, it was not something that would have been easy for me to do. He would have regarded that as disrespect and I could have been disciplined for that. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence, the residents of kwaMadala hostel, had been complaining for some time about the fact that they can't leave the hostel and they are being attacked, whenever they are out of the hostel. MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON When this was first brought to your attention, this is now this complaint, who did you discuss it with? MR MKHIZE I called a meeting and we discussed the matter with the residents of the hostel. I also informed Prince Vanana Zulu and the Prince said I should actually hold on because he was going to communicate with leaders in Boipatong, so that ordinary members would be called upon to stop the fighting. CHAIRPERSON What about the members of the Committee of which you were a member? MR MKHIZE We did not discuss this in the committee. I thought it was better to inform the Prince. CHAIRPERSON What position did he have at the hostel at the time, was he the most senior IFP member? MR MKHIZE Yes, he was the most senior person at the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. How long before the attack, did Prince Vanana Zulu leave the hostel? MR MKHIZE It could have been a week or two, I am not quite certain. I do know that it was not less than a week, before the attack was launched. MR BERGER Mr Victor Mthembu has told this Committee that he saw Prince Vanana Zulu leaving the hostel to catch a taxi, during the afternoon of the 17th of June 1992. MR MKHIZE That was not true. MR BERGER Prince Zulu has left you with instructions, not to launch an attack, this is now on Boipatong, this is now a week, possibly two weeks before the actual attack on Boipatong, am I right? MR MKHIZE He did not issue an instruction that we should not attack on a specific date, but he asked us to wait until such time that he managed to communicate with leaders from Boipatong. MR BERGER Yes, now you have said a week, possibly two weeks before the attack, he had already left the hostel. My question to you is, a week possibly two weeks before the attack, you had already decided to attack Boipatong, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, because of the suffering of the people in the hostel. MR BERGER Now, if Prince Vanana Zulu has told you don't launch an attack, and he leaves, and the pressure on you gets too great that you have to launch an attack because otherwise you would be killed, why did you make no attempt to discuss the situation either with members of your own committee or with any other leader of the IFP, whether in the hostel or outside, such as Mr Themba Khoza? Why did you not speak to anyone? To be clear, not to say we are going to attack, but to say there is this pressure for us to attack, what can I do, can you help me? Why didn't you do that? MR MKHIZE Mr Khoza was not a person who was readily available to us at any time. He is the one who usually came to us to inform us of various matters. MR BERGER Did you make any attempt to contact or to speak to any other leader of the IFP, either in the hostel or outside or in Johannesburg, did you make any attempt to do so? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. MR BERGER Why not? MR MKHIZE It did not occur to me to do so. After informing the Prince, I thought that there was no other person that I should inform, he was the one who would have informed other leaders. MR BERGER With respect Mr Mkhize, that can't be so because he had gone on leave, he had gone home, and you knew that. He wasn't going to inform anyone? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think I made a mistake by not thinking of telling any other leader. MR BERGER Would I be correct to say that in your mind, at the time you decided that you had no choice, but to launch an attack on Boipatong, it was your view that such an attack was not in the best interest of the IFP? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Despite that, you failed to call upon any other leader of the IFP, including Mr Themba Khoza for their assistance, to prevent what you knew was not in the interest of the IFP, would that be fair? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER I put it to you Mr Mkhize, that that is not correct and that, let me be specific on what is not correct, you launched that attack because you had the permission, the authority of other leaders of the IFP, including Mr Themba Khoza and you knew that the attack was sanctioned by the IFP, isn't that right? MR MKHIZE No, that is what you wish for, it is not so. MR BERGER I put it to you, let me ask you this, at the time of the attack, were you a loyal and disciplined member of the IFP? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER I put it to you that as a loyal and disciplined member of the IFP, you would not have participated in conduct which you knew, was not in the interest of the IFP, unless you had the authority from the IFP to do it? MR MKHIZE I did mention that I did this because of the pressure that I was experiencing. MR BERGER This pressure was building up over many weeks prior to the attack, correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Now, would you like to take a break Mr Mkhize, are you tired? Are you tired at the moment, would you like to take a break? MR MKHIZE Just continue asking your questions. ADV SIGODI Sorry, just a point which I would like to clarify. You say that you were the leader of the AmaButho, who chose you to be the leader? MR MKHIZE I was actually elected by AmaButho themselves. ADV SIGODI If you can just clarify to this Committee, not all of us are Zulu speaking, what is a AmaButho, is it the military wing of the IFP or how do you define AmaButho? MR MKHIZE I would describe them as protectors, not necessarily for the IFP, but for Zulu's in general. But we are divided in groups, when we attend ceremonial gatherings, I would lead the AmaButho. ADV SIGODI How many groups were there in kwaMadala hostel? MR MKHIZE There was just one. ADV SIGODI And did it consist of all the men, or how was it formed, who would be a member of AmaButho? Would it be all the men in the hostel? MR MKHIZE Every male person at the hostel, was part of AmaButho. There would be differentiation along the lines of youth, and senior members, but in cases where we went to rallies or maybe to ceremonial gatherings, to the king himself, we would go as one group, AmaButho. ADV SIGODI What were your duties as a leader of that? MR MKHIZE For instance, if we were going to attend a ceremonial gathering, I would advise them on what we were going to do. I would also act as a mediator if there was a quarrel amongst members of AmaButho. ADV SIGODI Thank you. MR BERGER Thank you. Mr Mkhize, how were the AmaButho subdivided within the hostel? You had the whole structure of the AmaButho and then how were they placed into smaller groups, if that did happen? MR MKHIZE It was not subdivided. There would for instance be a youth wing or maybe there would be other groups, but the entire group of men was AmaButho, they were known as AmaButho. MR BERGER Am I correct if I say that AmaButho is the Zulu word for warriors? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER And when warriors went into battle, was there no system of dividing them up into smaller units, or did the warriors just fight as one unit? MR MKHIZE It all depends on the leader. He would be the one to decide how his men would go into battle. MR BERGER And you as the leader of the AmaButho, did you divide your men into smaller units and each smaller unit, having a leader, who was ultimately responsible to you? MR MKHIZE No, there were only two groups. MR BERGER There were two groups of warriors in kwaMadala, is that what you are saying? MR MKHIZE No, I said there was only one group of AmaButho. MR BERGER I am not talking about on the night of the massacre, perhaps you think I am referring to that. MR MKHIZE No, then there was just one group. MR BERGER One group of AmaButho in the hostel and there were no sub-leaders, the only Commander, it was you and the AmaButho? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And there were no Regional Commanders, Area Commanders, Block Commanders, Unit Commanders? MR MKHIZE No, there were none. MR BERGER Chairperson, I see it is one o'clock, perhaps this would be appropriate. CHAIRPERSON We will come back at half past one. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Berger? Let me warn you that we intend to rise for a short adjournment at about half past three again, so do bear that in mind. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson, I will. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, if I can just interrupt, some of the people that weren't here this morning, arrived shortly after we started this morning. I can just inform you Mr Chairperson, that the following persons are here now as well, applicant 10, Tshabangu and Sipho Buthelezi. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) MR STRYDOM That is correct, and in the meantime we have established that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi is apparently in Sasolburg prison and we still don't know where Tebogo Magubane is. CHAIRPERSON I will deal with Buthelezi and Tshabangu in due course. Proceed Mr Berger. MS TANZER Chairperson, if I may interrupt for a second as well. It has come to my attention during the lunch break, that my client, Mr Nosenga has been receiving threats from within and from warders, which is frightening him and the whole aspect of Truth and Reconciliation is now intimidating him. I just want to place on record that he has been receiving threats and if the Commission can provide some kind of legal witness protection for him, as he is feeling endangered and intimidated right now. CHAIRPERSON That is a serious matter. Who is threatening your client? MS TANZER Chairperson, I have been unable to gather exactly which persons, because that also intimidates him, he doesn't want to point finger, because obviously the threat is that real, but he has since yesterday and now since the statement has been released, been receiving threats that is making him scared for his life. He has been receiving threats at the prison, but he has also been receiving threats I understand, here in this, well in his, in the other room. CHAIRPERSON Did you say that he is receiving threats from the prison warders? MS TANZER I did Chairperson. He just used the word warders, he would not point exactly which ones he was talking about. CHAIRPERSON Are these threats, are they only come from the prison warders? MS TANZER Chairperson, as I said to you, it was hard to get this information out of him. He is just sitting there, very scared and basically has indicated that you know, he has received threats and he is scared. He indicated it is from the warders, it is from locals around here. CHAIRPERSON From what? MS TANZER From locals around, people you know around. Mr Chairperson, it seems that there have been various threats, it is not one or two threats. CHAIRPERSON But when you say from locals around, what do you mean? MS TANZER As I said Mr Chairperson, he refuses to divulge too much information for the very reason that, and pointing fingers, that it could - it scared him. It has intimidated him, he would not even point to me, I asked him to point out who is threatening him, he refused to do so. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr (indistinct) of the TRC Investigative Unit, here? MR MAPOMA No sir, I did not meet him, but the person who is here, I know is Mr Jan Olckers. That is Jan Olckers, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What are your full names sir? MR OLCKERS My name is Johan Olckers. CHAIRPERSON I gather that you are attached to the TRC Investigative Unit? MR OLCKERS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON We have been informed by the legal representative of one of the applicants, Andries Matanzima Nosenga, that he has been and continues to receive threats and that he desires to be put onto the witness protection scheme. Would you on behalf of this Committee, investigate the matter in the presence of his legal representative, and then come back and report to us before we rise this afternoon? If you could also after you have been investigating the matter, indicate to us what your recommendations are. MR OLCKERS Yes, I will do so. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Nosenga here? MR OLCKERS He is placed in a room, in a back room, yes. CHAIRPERSON Would you convey to your client, that we have directed that an investigation be made into the allegations with a view to determining whether or not, he should be placed on a witness protection scheme as he requires and that he should cooperate with the Investigator and to that extent, you will be excused from remaining in attendance until that matter has been sorted out. Hopefully you will report back to us before we rise, so that we can resolve the matter today if possible. MS TANZER Thank you, I will do that, he is actually listening right now, he is watching the television, so he is hearing the message. I will convey to him though personally, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Well, Mr Berger, I gather that you intend cross-examining this applicant on the affidavit, on the sworn statement by Mr Nosenga? MR BERGER I do Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Does it matter that his legal representative will not be here at the moment, probably doesn't, does it? MR BERGER I don't think so Chairperson, because I am not going to challenge anything that is in the statement, I am rather going to confront the witness with it. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. What is the feeling of other counsel? MR DA SILVA I don't have any objection Mr Chairman. MS PRETORIUS Neither do I, Mr Chairman. MR STRYDOM I have no objection Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you have an objection? MS TANZER I have none. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me that this is a matter which has to be attended to as soon as possible. Very well, you will be excused Ma'am. MS TANZER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you sir. I understand Mr Berger, that you are very anxious to proceed, please proceed sir. BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE (still under oath) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (continued) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, did you know that Victor Keswa was a member of the IFP youth brigade? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Do you know a person by the name of Hunter Ndlovu? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know him. MR BERGER Was he also a member of the IFP youth brigade? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Was he involved in the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Is he still alive? MR MKHIZE Yes, he is still alive. MR BERGER Where is he? You don't want to answer that question? INTERPRETER May the question please be repeated? MR BERGER Where is Hunter Ndlovu now? MR MKHIZE I don't know where he is, I only learnt that he is somewhere around town, residing somewhere thereabout. MR BERGER Themba Mabote and Sipho Lukhozi were also members of the IFP youth brigade, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Paphi, did you know someone by that name, Paphi? MR MKHIZE No, I do not recall that name. MR BERGER Swi? MR MKHIZE Yes, yes, I know him. MR BERGER Was he involved in the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE No. I do not quite remember. MR BERGER Was he a member of the IFP youth brigade? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Nzauke, do you know him? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember him. MR BERGER Perhaps it should be Mzwake? Did you know someone by that name, Mzwake? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER Ndlandla Qindi? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER You don't know anyone by that name? Surname Qindi? MR MKHIZE There is one Qindi that I know. MR BERGER Clement Qindi? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know Ndlandla Qindi, I didn't know he is Clement. MR BERGER A member of the IFP youth brigade? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Was he present in the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember. MR BERGER Who are the people that you saw during the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE It was at night, and there were many of us. There is no one particular person that I can claim to remember quite well. MR BERGER And at the stadium, before you left to go and attack Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Yes, it was at night I said, it was still at night, and therefore I am not in the position to say. MR BERGER You say you can't name anybody, is that correct? MR MKHIZE It has been a very long time. I can only remember the people with whom we were arrested, but I cannot remember the rest. MR BERGER The people with whom you were arrested, were they all involved in the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Yes, the majority of them were involved. MR BERGER And can you give this Committee the names of those people with whom you were arrested, who were involved in the attack on Boipatong and who were acquitted during the criminal trial? MR MKHIZE I do not quite remember. MR BERGER If I gave you the charge sheet in the criminal matter, with the list of all the accused, would you be able to go through that list, and identify those people who were involved in the attack and those who were not? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think I can remember some of them, but surely not all of them. MR BERGER I will make the list available to you and if you could do that exercise please, overnight. I see that your legal representative is saying that you can't read? Is there someone who is living with you, who can assist you to read those names? MR MKHIZE Yes, I can try to get hold of someone who can assist me. MR BERGER Thank you. During the lunch adjournment, I had an opportunity to read the sworn statement of Mr Nosenga, and he says in paragraph 2 of that statement that there were many meetings prior to the massacre, held at the hostel, when discussions were held about killings of ANC members. Do you recall those meetings? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did refer to numerous meetings that we held, trying to address the killing of our members. MR BERGER You must listen to me Mr Mkhize, I said the killing of ANC members. Let me read to you what Mr Nosenga says and then you can tell me if you agree or disagree. He says there were many meetings held at the hostel, when discussions were held about killings of ANC members. The kwaMadala hostel was used by the IFP, to launch attacks on residents of the township. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE May the question please be repeated? MR BERGER He says there were many meetings held at the hostel. I am asking you whether this is correct or not, when discussions were held about the killings of ANC members? The kwaMadala hostel was used by the IFP to launch attacks on residents of the township. MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Next sentence, Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle, and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is not correct. He used to come, but I do not remember him being present when such matters as killing people. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, am I correct to say that you are reading the last sentence of paragraph 2? MR BERGER That is so, yes. CHAIRPERSON This is the question that is put to you, this is what Mr Nosenga says in his statement, Themba Khoza chaired IFP in the Vaal Triangle, and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel. There is no suggestion that he took part in the discussions to kill people. That is all that you are being asked at this stage. MR BERGER I don't dispute that, I believe is the translation? I didn't hear anything, I got it from my colleague. CHAIRPERSON Is there an extra statement so that we can make it available to the Interpreters? Very well. MR BERGER Just for the record Mr Mkhize, is it correct that you said that that last sentence is correct, that Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, just that sentence, is it correct? MR MKHIZE I did not say that. I said he was a leader of the IFP in the Transvaal, not in the Vaal Triangle. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, please listen to the question. What Counsel is asking you about, he is asking you about the statement made by Mr Nosenga. MR MKHIZE Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON You must answer the questions that are being put to you. MR MKHIZE May you please repeat the question? MR BERGER The question is, I want you please to comment on this sentence, is it correct or not correct, Themba Khoza chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel? MR MKHIZE That is a mistake. MR BERGER Where is the mistake? MR MKHIZE It is not true that he frequented the hostel and that he was Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal. MR BERGER Who was the Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal at the time? MR MKHIZE The one person I knew to have been Chairperson of everybody or the IFP in the Vaal, was Mr Vanana Zulu. MR BERGER And who was his senior within IFP structures? MR MKHIZE I would not know, except that he was the one who was high up, above us all. MR BERGER Mr Mkhize, you do know. You know that above Mr Vanana Zulu, was Mr Themba Khoza, don't you? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know that. MR BERGER Well, then why do you waste time and say you don't know? MR MKHIZE I am saying here in the Vaal, I am talking about the Vaal. I know that Khoza was the Senior Supreme, but I am talking about the Vaal. I don't know what position Mr Zulu was in relation to other people. MR BERGER You have just told the Committee that Mr Vanana Zulu was the supreme leader in the Vaal, you said he chaired the IFP in the Vaal, that is the supreme leader, is it not? MR MKHIZE I still maintain that is the case. MR BERGER And then above him would be Mr Themba Khoza for the Transvaal? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And Mr Themba Khoza used to come to the hostel, kwaMadala hostel on a number of occasions? MR MKHIZE He did not come often. MR BERGER He came to the hostel three days before the massacre, did he not? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER Let me read to you what one of your co-applicants says, page 8 of the bundle, paragraph 11. On the Sunday before the Boipatong massacre, Themba Khoza and Dlamini came to address the meeting of the people in the stadium. Other residents of the kwaMadala hostel were present. Only the men of the kwaMadala hostel were present. Dlamini was accompanied by a member of the kwaZulu police, Gabelo, who was his bodyguard. Did that not happen? MR MKHIZE No. Dlamini is actually the one person who used to come to the hostel, but then he was not a frequent visitor, he would come maybe once or twice a week, or maybe one week would lapse without him coming, and he would come thereafter, because he was a resident around here, in Vereeniging. MR BERGER I am reading from the affidavit of Mr Victor Mthembu, paragraph 12. He says that Dlamini first opened this meeting, this was on the Sunday, it would be the 14th of March 1992, 14th of June, I beg your pardon, 1992. He said there was a meeting because our people were dying. They were being killed by the ANC people and Umkhonto weSizwe, do you remember that meeting? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER Dlamini said this problem must be reported to Buthelezi. He said the people had no transport to go to work, as all their taxi's were being hijacked by the ANC, and the people could not go to work. This Buthelezi that is being referred to, is Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi. MR MKHIZE Yes, that is reference to the Chief Minister, Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi. MR BERGER You were at the hostel on Sunday the 14th of June 1992, were you not? MR MKHIZE My problem is that I have lost count of the date, and therefore I cannot dispute some of these dates, but yes, I do not remember quite well. MR BERGER I am talking about three days before the massacre, when you were preparing for war. MR MKHIZE Was Dlamini present in that meeting? No, I do not agree with that. MR BERGER When did you take a decision that Boipatong would be attacked? MR MKHIZE On that very same day, that is on the 17th. MR BERGER You did not take the decision before the 17th? MR MKHIZE There is one other meeting that we held, but we did not decide as to which date we should, on which date we should launch the attack. MR BERGER When did you decide that you were going to attack Boipatong? Not of the date, but when did you decide that you would go ahead with an attack? MR MKHIZE It was on the 17th. CHAIRPERSON We know that on the 17th you took the, you decided that you must now proceed to Boipatong and launch the attack. What Counsel wants to find out, when was the decision in principle to attack Boipatong, taken? Is that your question? MR BERGER Indeed yes. MR MKHIZE Even though I cannot quite remember very well, but I think it must have been the following day after the last meeting. MR BERGER How many days before the attack, did you take a decision in principle that Boipatong would be attacked? MR MKHIZE I do not remember quite well really, I cannot remember how many days lapsed. CHAIRPERSON The question to you is, on the 17th you went to attack Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Before the 17th, was there already a decision that Boipatong was going to be attacked? MR MKHIZE Yes, I understand it. CHAIRPERSON The legal representative wants to know when the decision to launch the attack, was taken. MR MKHIZE Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, I cannot remember the day of the week, or how many days lapsed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, was it a week or two weeks? MR MKHIZE I think it was one week. CHAIRPERSON Do you have the answer? Yes. MR BERGER You see a lot of your colleagues talk about a meeting on the 10th of June, do you remember that meeting, a week before the attack? MR MKHIZE I cannot remember very well, but I know there was not only one meeting held. MR BERGER There was a meeting round about the 3rd of June 1992, there would have been a meeting on the 10th of June 1992, there would have been a meeting on the Sunday, the 14th of June 1992 and then there would have been the meeting in the stadium, on the 17th of June 1992. Would that be correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I would concur with that. MR BERGER And you had about a week or six days, in which to prepare for the attack on Boipatong, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER If Themba Khoza came to the stadium, I beg your pardon, to kwaMadala hostel on Sunday the 14th of March 1992, as Mr Victor Mthembu says he did, you would then have had an opportunity to speak with him, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM The month that my learned colleague referred to was March. MR BERGER I am sorry, I don't know why I am obsessed with March. June, Sunday the 14th of June 1992. Let me try and refresh your memory about what happened at that meeting. After Mr Dlamini had addressed the meeting, Mr Themba Khoza says Mr Victor Mthembu, also addressed the meeting. Themba Khoza he says, was angry at the killing of his people and he says if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them. Do you remember that meeting now? MR MKHIZE No, I do not. I do not recall a meeting where Mr Themba Khoza indicted to us that we should fight back. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga in his affidavit, page 19, paragraph 5, talks about the meeting approximately two weeks before the massacre, we are talking about roundabout the 3rd of June 1992. He says that this meeting was in a big hall, lots of people there and he says Themba Khoza was at that meeting. He also says that there were some policemen at the meeting, and he mentions Mr Peens and a certain Dani. Is he correct? MR MKHIZE No. I do not remember that. MR BERGER Did you know Mr Peens, do you know Mr Peens? MR MKHIZE No. I don't know him, except maybe I just know him by sight because I know several policemen. MR BERGER He says that Themba Khoza and Mr Peens, this is Mr Pedro Peens, chaired the meeting, and that Mtwana Zulu, that would be Prince Vanana Zulu, was also there. He says that Darkie, a leader of the IFP, was also there. You know Darkie, don't you? MR MKHIZE Are you referring to Darkie Qunchu, if that is the one, I know him. MR BERGER Kachene, an Induna, do you know him? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know Kachene. MR BERGER Was he an Induna? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER Was he a member of the IFP? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER What is his surname? MR MKHIZE It is Ndlovu. Ndlovu is his surname and Kachene is his praise name. MR BERGER And what other name does he go by, his first name? MR MKHIZE I don't know his real name, we used to call him Kachene, that is all. MR BERGER Is he one of your co-applicants? MR MKHIZE No, he is not part of the applicants. MR BERGER Was he accused in the criminal trial? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga says that at this meeting, the hostel residents were told that people were needed to go to Boipatong to kill the dogs. MR MKHIZE I don't want to involve myself in this Nosenga issue, really. MR BERGER Well you see Mr Mkhize, I am putting this to you so that you will have an opportunity to comment on what Mr Nosenga says. If you don't want to comment, that is also fine, just say I don't want to comment and I will move on. Also at this meeting, Themba Khoza said that a certain insect should be killed and he was referring to the Boipatong residents? Do you have any comment? MR MKHIZE No. There is nothing I know to that effect. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga says that Peens also spoke at that meeting, he spoke in Afrikaans, it was translated for the residents. Do you remember a policeman speaking in Afrikaans at that meeting? MR MKHIZE I do not remember a single police present at the meeting. I do not recall any policeman present at our meetings at kwaMadala. MR BERGER I won't go through all the details, but save to say that Mr Nosenga talks about the police saying, or Mr Peens saying that the police would supply you with caspirs, you the residents with caspirs and weapons and that the police would assist you during an attack? Are you saying that that never happened? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER What are you saying? MR MKHIZE I say I know nothing about that. MR BERGER Well you were there at that meeting, two weeks before the attack and you say Themba Khoza wasn't there and Pedro Peens wasn't there either, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER In your, what preparations did you make for the attack in the six days that you had at your disposal, what did you do to prepare the attack? MR MKHIZE We had to get arms, that is all. There was nothing else to do, there was no other preparation to be made really. MR BERGER So you gave instructions to Damara Qunchu to get arms, to go and buy arms, is that right? MR MKHIZE Yes, but we already had some of the firearms. MR BERGER But you had to get more? MR MKHIZE No, there was no need to (indistinct) the firearms. MR BERGER Well then, what did you do in the six days before the attack, you said you had to get arms, where did you get them from? MR MKHIZE I did say earlier on that one person who had knowledge about firearms, was Mr Qunchu himself. MR BERGER And did he go and get arms, and if so, from where? MR MKHIZE I am saying he is the one who had knowledge as to where to find firearms, I don't know where he found them really. MR BERGER So all you did was you said Damara, we need arms, go and get arms and he went on his way and got the arms, is that what you are saying? MR MKHIZE There were already firearms. MR BERGER Where? MR MKHIZE At the hostel, at kwaMadala hostel. MR BERGER So you said to him Damara, go and get all the arms in the hostel, is that what you said? MR MKHIZE We already had firearms where we resided at the hostel. MR BERGER I am sorry, I am being very obtuse, all you said to him was go and fetch the arms which are hidden in the hostel and he went about his business, is that what happened? MR MKHIZE Yes, we already had firearms at the hostel. MR BERGER You know you were asked questions about weapons in this request for further particulars, on page 68 in particular, question 19. You were asked did you have an AK47 automatic rifle on the evening of the 17th of June and your answer was yes. It was in the hostel. I didn't see when Damara Qunchu arrived, but he was responsible to organise weapons, including AK47's. You were asked where did you get this weapon, 19.1. You didn't answer that as far as I can see. You were asked in question 19.2, did Mr Damara Qunchu bring weapons to the hostel in a vehicle, a blue Nissan Skyline. I am not sure if you answered that question because you said you didn't see when he arrived. I will ask you again, did Mr Damara Qunchu go out of the hostel to organise guns? CHAIRPERSON At what stage Mr Berger? He has told us previously that whenever they wanted arms, they would collect money, give it to Damara Qunchu to go and buy the arms, he didn't know where they were bought from. What is the stage that you are talking about? MR BERGER Between the time when you decided that you needed arms to launch an attack on Boipatong, we are talking about six days before the attack, or after the meeting of the 10th of June, seven days before the attack. Between that time, the 10th of June and the 17th of June, did Mr Damara Qunchu leave the hostel and return with guns in a blue Nissan Skyline? MR MKHIZE I do not remember very well, but yes, he used to use a blue Skyline. MR BERGER Besides giving an instruction to Mr Qunchu to say go and get the arms, what other preparations did you make for the attack? MR MKHIZE We did not make any other preparation. There was no need for any other preparation because we already had firearms. MR BERGER Well there was a need Mr Mkhize, let me give you some examples. You had to plan the route for one, you had to plan the targets for two, where would you attack the SDU's. You didn't plan any of that, routes or targets? MR MKHIZE We knew too that we were going to find the Self Defence Units in the townships, that is all. We knew that. MR BERGER And the route to Boipatong, you were just going to go out the main gate and walk to Boipatong? That was what you had decided? MR MKHIZE We took the route to the township, we know the route to the township. CHAIRPERSON We know that you just walked to Boipatong, but what Counsel is asking you is, did you not plan where you were going to get the SDU and which route you were going to follow to get to them? Did you not plan that beforehand? MR MKHIZE Yes, we did plan those because we knew that they used to patrol at the entrance. That is where they used to put up barricades. MR BERGER When you say we planned, it is you and Mr Damara Qunchu, no one else? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER What about the guards at the main gate of kwaMadala hostel? Surely they were going to be suspicious when a couple of hundred armed men leave the hostel, after nightfall? Did you arrange with them what was going to happen? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER What about the Vaal Commando? You knew, I am sure, I will ask you, did you know that the Vaal Commando patrolled the street outside the hostel? MR MKHIZE No. I did not have that knowledge, except to say we had knowledge to the fact that there were some police who used to patrol the streets. MR BERGER Police and military vehicles used to patrol the area around the hostel, around ISCOR, around kwaMadala, around Boipatong. You knew that, didn't you? MR MKHIZE Yes, we did have that information. MR BERGER What made you think that several hundred armed men moving out of the main gate, along the main road to Boipatong, were not going to be stopped by either members of the army or by members of the police? How did you think you could do that with impunity? MR MKHIZE It just did not occur to us. It did not occur to me as well. MR BERGER Mr Mkhize, you are the Commander of a military unit, a fighting unit. You are leading a couple of hundred armed men out to commit murder, and it never occurs to you that the police might catch you in the act, it never occurs to you? MR MKHIZE Yes, it did not occur to me. MR BERGER I will tell you why it did not occur to you Mr Mkhize, because you already had assurances from the police that not only would you not be stopped on your way to commit murder, but that you would be assisted? MR MKHIZE That is not true. MR BERGER On the 14th of June, this is now the Sunday before the attack, says Mr Nosenga, paragraph 8, page 19, he also says there was a meeting at the hostel and he says that at this meeting, it was decided that the attack should take place on the 17th of June 1992. Is he correct? MR MKHIZE No, I cannot remember. MR BERGER Well then why do you say he is not correct? We know that there was a meeting on the 14th of June, Mr Mthembu says so as well. This is the Sunday, three days before the attack there was a meeting at the hostel, we know that, am I right? MR MKHIZE I do not disagree with the fact that there was a meeting on that day, but all I am saying is that I have lost count of the dates during which certain things happened. MR BERGER We know from your own evidence that by the Sunday, you had already taken a decision to attack Boipatong, correct? MR MKHIZE Will you please repeat the question? MR BERGER We know from you that by the Sunday, you had already taken a decision to attack Boipatong, the 14th, by the 14th? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And is it not correct that on the Sunday, you told the residents that the attack would take place on the Wednesday, the 17th? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER Why didn't you tell the residents that? MR MKHIZE I told them on the day of the attack. MR BERGER My question to you is, why at this meeting on the Sunday, did you not tell the hostel residents on Wednesday, three days from now, we will go and attack Boipatong, get yourselves ready? Why didn't you do that? MR MKHIZE It was not easy. This is not something to be done in advance, they ought not to have been informed in advance, because the information would leak and we might end up being arrested. MR BERGER The information would leak to the police and you might end up being arrested, is that what you thought at the time? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER But you never thought that the police would arrest you on your way to Boipatong? MR MKHIZE No, it did not occur to me. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga says that at that meeting on the Sunday, the residents were told that in this attack on Boipatong, everyone was going to be killed, women and children included? MR MKHIZE I do not remember that. MR BERGER I am not going to go through the further particulars of that meeting, save to say that he says that at meeting, there were no police officers present. Were you an Induna Mr Mkhize? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER During the criminal trial, you will remember that Prince Vanana Zulu gave evidence and at page 3126 of the criminal record, he was asked the following question: Accused 9 and that was you at the trial, told the Court that there in the hostel, he is an Induna, Mr Mkhize, and Prince Vanana Zulu's answer was no, I don't know him as an Induna. Do you dispute that? MR MKHIZE Yes, I dispute that. I am an Induna at the hostel. MR BERGER Prince Vanana Zulu also was asked, or he said that you were correct when you told the Court that you took over certain functions from him, the functions that he had previously fulfilled in the hostel, you took over from him? That is correct is it not? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER That is what he said at the trial. What he also said at the trial, he was asked the question can Mr Mkhize, this is now accused 9, on his own, can he take decisions in the hostel about when a meeting should be held. I hope I have translated it correctly. I am getting the nod, so my translation is right. He was asked that question and his answer was no, telling the Court that you had no authority to decide on your own when meetings in the hostel would be called, is that right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And that would mean that you had no authority in IFP structures, you had no authority from the IFP to call a meeting of the hostel, on your own, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And so are you therefore saying that when you called the meeting in the stadium on the evening of the 17th of June 1992, prior to the attack on Boipatong, you had no authority from the IFP to call that meeting, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct, but then the Prince was not present. MR BERGER Even in the absence of the Prince, you had no authority, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And everybody who attended the meeting, would have known that, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga goes on, page 20 paragraph 9, to say on the day of the attack, we alerted by a trumpet signal at about six to seven o'clock. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER We gathered at the stadium at the hostel area, correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER When Themba Khoza arrived at the hostel, he gave certain commands to the Indunas who informed us that Khoza had obtained the guns and some of them were from Peens. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is not true. MR BERGER He says that Peens came to the hostel on the day of the attack, together with his colleague Shaka. Did you see Mr Peens at the hostel on the day of the attack, this was now before the attack, I would assume? MR MKHIZE I did say that I don't know that Mr Peens. MR BERGER Did you see any white man at the hostel on the day of the attack? MR MKHIZE I did say that I do not remember any meeting being held in the presence of a white person. MR BERGER I am not talking about a meeting now, I am talking about the simple presence of a white man who arrived in a white Opel Monza on the day of the attack, at the hostel. MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER He says he came with his colleague, a policeman by the name of Shaka. Did you know a black policeman by the name of Shaka? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER And he says that on that day, he saw Peens hand over money to Victor Keswa. From that I infer and I am asking you, that Victor Keswa was indeed present at the hostel on the 17th of June 1992? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember really. MR BERGER You say you do not remember, but do I take it when you say that, it means you cannot dispute as well? MR MKHIZE I disagree with that statement, I do not recall seeing Keswa on that day. MR BERGER But you do not dispute that Keswa was there, is that correct? MR MKHIZE I disagree with that. MR BERGER He goes on in paragraph 11 to say that at the stadium, we were told that if we drank muti, we would become brave and strong. We drank and also poured muti on our weapons. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE It was a medicine called Ntelezi. This medicine is the kind of medicine that we use often times at the hostel. MR BERGER What is the Ntelezi used for? MR MKHIZE When AmaButho goes out for whatever reason, we use this. We still use this Ntelezi even now. MR BERGER Is it not correct that the Ntelezi is used to make the AmaButho brave so that they will be protected and do well in war, isn't that what it is for? MR MKHIZE That is our belief as Zulu's. MR BERGER And in fact, that was your belief on the night and the Ntelezi was used, it was drank and it was also poured or sprinkled over the weapons, is that right? MR MKHIZE I am saying that any instance where AmaButho would have to go out, we use this Ntelezi. MR BERGER I am asking you about the night of the attack, on that night, did the residents drink Ntelezi? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is what I am saying. MR BERGER And did they sprinkle the Ntelezi or pour the Ntelezi over their weapons? MR MKHIZE We only sprinkle it. MR BERGER There were a number of people who were given AK47's, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think so. MR BERGER There were also people with revolvers and shotguns? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think so, even though it was night, I am not in the position to specifically indicate who was carrying what kind of a weapon. I think yes, that was the case. MR BERGER And we know that there were also spears and axes? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Then he says we all left by feet in the direction of the township, that is also correct, is it not? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER And he says we were about 100 people. Most of us were from the hostel, but I believe that there were some people from Natal amongst the attackers. Correct or not? MR MKHIZE Yes, the majority of us came from Natal, that is why we resided at the hostel. MR BERGER Some of the attackers were wearing red head bands, is that correct? MR MKHIZE Not some of them, all of them. MR BERGER Isn't it that some were wearing red and some were wearing white or am I wrong? MR MKHIZE I do not remember quite well, but I remember using red head bands, but yes, all of us were wearing head bands, I cannot remember whether there were some white head bands. I don't want to agree with you when you say there were white head bands used as well, no. MR BERGER It is not me who says that, it is Victor Mthembu who says that. I will move on. He says we walked on the road and passed under the bridge, which is located a few minutes' walk from the hostel, that is correct, is it not? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER When we came out on the big open field before the township, I saw four to six caspirs parked on the field. Your comment? MR MKHIZE I did say earlier on that I saw only one caspir, it was just driving passed. I don't know anything about two or three or four caspirs. MR BERGER It is correct that you came out into a big open field before you entered Boipatong, am I right? After you passed under the bridge, you came out into an open field? Just before? Isn't it that you went behind the nursery and then you moved towards the lower side of Boipatong, or is that not the way it happened? MR MKHIZE No, I do not recall that. MR BERGER Where do you say you entered Boipatong, do you say it was at the top of Boipatong not at the bottom? When I talk about the top, I mean along that road where the factories are, Cape Gate and all of those factories, you entered Boipatong from that side? MR MKHIZE If you are following the route from Vanderbijl, I would say yes, that is the route that we took to gain our entry. MR BERGER You have told the Court that you know where Umzimvubu Street is, right, the Committee? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Did you enter Boipatong along Umzimvubu Street? MR MKHIZE No, further down. It was further down Umzimvubu Street. MR BERGER You spoke about a caspir that you saw whilst you were moving towards Boipatong, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Do you remember what colour caspir it was, or what type of caspir? MR MKHIZE I do not remember. I cannot remember whether it was a military caspir or a police caspir, I cannot recall really, it was at night. MR BERGER And this caspir was moving alone, would it be Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, the main road that separates kwaMadala hostel from Boipatong, is that the road that the caspir was moving along? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And moving in which direction, moving towards... MR MKHIZE It headed towards Sebokeng. MR BERGER In other words up towards the top of Boipatong? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And weren't you afraid that you might get caught? MR MKHIZE I did indicate earlier on that this did not occur to me. I think you are asking me this question for the second time now. MR BERGER Yes, I am asking you now, when you saw this caspir, you were still not afraid that you might get caught, am I right? MR MKHIZE We did think that it might be possible for us to be arrested, but the caspir proceeded on. Had it stopped, yes, we could have concluded that now we were going to get arrested, but the caspir did not stop at all. MR BERGER I put it to you that the caspirs were there, that in fact, there was more than one caspir, and that in fact, members of the AmaButho, some of them, actually got into the caspir and were transported into Boipatong. Isn't that what happened? MR MKHIZE No, that is not correct. MR BERGER Do you know a policeman by the name of Rooikop? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know him. MR BERGER What is his real name? MR MKHIZE I only know him to be Rooikop. MR BERGER Is this a black or a white policeman? MR MKHIZE He is a white one. I know a white one. MR BERGER With red hair? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Is he thin or is he fat? MR MKHIZE He is stout, not very big. MR BERGER Now, Rubin, do you know someone by the name of Rubin? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER That is Rubin Tebogo Magubane, correct, applicant 3? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER He was present during the attack, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Kachene? MR MKHIZE I did say earlier on that I do not remember Kachene. MR BERGER You don't know who that person is, or you don't remember if he was there during the attack? MR MKHIZE I did say that I know Kachene, My Lord, but all I am saying is that I cannot remember whether he was present on the day of the attack or not. MR BERGER Themba Kubeka? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know him. MR BERGER Was he present during the attack? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Is that Sthembiso Kubeka? MR MKHIZE He is Sthembiso's brother. He died. MR BERGER Lucky, do you know who Lucky is? MR MKHIZE Lucky who? MR BERGER Do you know Lucky Stikenawu? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know him. MR BERGER He was there during the attack, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think so. MR BERGER His real names are Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, applicant 7? MR MKHIZE I do not know his real names really. MR BERGER Sipho, do you know Sipho? MR MKHIZE Sipho who? MR BERGER I don't have a surname. MR MKHIZE There are two Sipho's that I know. MR BERGER The one is Sipho Buthelezi, right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And the other one? MR MKHIZE The other one is Sipho Lukhozi. MR BERGER And that is Sipho Thomas Lukhozi? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER And both of them were present during the massacre, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think so. MR BERGER Makuka, do you know someone by that name? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know Makuka. MR BERGER What are his full names? MR MKHIZE I don't know his names, I just know him to be Makuka. MR BERGER Is he now deceased? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Do you know where he died? MR MKHIZE No. On coming back from home, I learnt that he had died. MR BERGER And he was present during the massacre, correct? MR MKHIZE I do not remember. MR BERGER Tsamo. Do you know Tsamo? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember that one, I don't think I know him. MR BERGER Dondo? MR MKHIZE Yes, I know him. MR BERGER He was present during the massacre? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think he was present. MR BERGER That is Jack Mbele, applicant 6, correct? MR MKHIZE Jack Mbele is Dondo. MR BERGER And Makheze? Do you know Makheze? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER Chairperson, it is half past three. CHAIRPERSON We will rise now and come back at ten to four. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE (still under oath) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (continued) Mr Mkhize, I take it that you deny that there were any policemen involved in the attack on Boipatong? You deny that there were any caspirs involved in the attack on Boipatong and you deny that there were any people wearing balaclavas who took part in the attack on Boipatong, would that be right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR BERGER If there had been caspirs involved in transporting some of the attackers to Boipatong, you would have seen that, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, I would have seen them. MR BERGER If there had been policemen involved, or whites involved, or people wearing balaclavas, you would have seen them, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER And so the fact that you did not see any of this, means that they were not there, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER I want to put it to you that you are not telling the truth with the Committee and that there were in fact policemen involved, there were whites involved, there were people wearing balaclavas, whites wearing balaclavas and there were caspirs which transported attackers to the township. You don't wish to comment? MR MKHIZE My intention to come before this Committee is to seek amnesty and therefore would have no reason to hide any information if I had it. I would have no reason to fear anybody including the policemen. If there were policemen involved, I would say so. As I have already mentioned that I was present, I was armed with an AK47 and I do not know why I will be afraid to divulge information if I had it. I am here to tell the Committee, to inform the Committee of what I saw and what I know. Therefore I cannot say that the police were there if I did not see them. MR BERGER You have every reason not to tell the truth Mr Mkhize, because if you do tell the truth, you fear that something will happen to you, something bad will happen to you. We have seen with Mr Nosenga. He has made an affidavit which sets out the truth, he is being threatened with his life. Isn't that what you fear? MR MKHIZE No, it is not what I fear. I don't even want to involve myself in Nosenga's issue, because I don't even know him. MR BERGER Two of the policemen who gave evidence at the Goldstone Commission about police involvement in the attack, are dead today. That is the reason that you are not telling the truth. You are too scared to tell the truth and you are too scared to tell this Committee that that is the reason, isn't that right? MR MKHIZE I am not afraid of anything. I do not fear anything, I would say if there were policemen involved. I don't really understand what I would be fearing. MR BERGER You do know that you can be put into a witness protection programme if you tell the truth, if you fear for your life? You know that? MR MKHIZE Please repeat. MR BERGER You can be put into a witness protection programme if you are fearing for your life, you know that? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know that. With regards to what you are discussing here, there is nothing that I am afraid of. I would not fear to divulge that the police were present if they were. MR BERGER Are you not afraid of Prince Vanana Zulu? MR MKHIZE No. Would I be afraid that maybe he would assault me? MR BERGER While we are on the subject of Prince Vanana Zulu, is it not correct that he was in fact part of the attack, that he was in Boipatong during the massacre? MR MKHIZE I have already told you that he was absent. MR BERGER What do you know about women who were raped during the massacre? MR MKHIZE I do not know anything about that. MR BERGER During the criminal trial, Lucky Stikenawu, Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, was asked the following question at page 3499 - he was asked, Gobi also said that on the 18th of June, that would have been the day after the massacre, you had a conversation with him and you told him that the previous night you had raped somebody in Boipatong. Do you remember that evidence at the criminal trial? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember. MR BERGER That Lucky had said to someone who gave evidence for the State, that he had raped somebody in Boipatong, you don't remember that? MR MKHIZE I do not remember that. MR BERGER Did any of your men brag after the massacre that they had raped women in Boipatong? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember anyone doing that. I did not get to hear of it. MR BERGER Would it surprise you, does it surprise you that women were allegedly raped in Boipatong during the massacre? MR MKHIZE Yes, it would surprise me. MR BERGER Did you give instructions that women should not be raped? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. It was not something that would happen, if you go out to attack, you would also engage in raping women. MR BERGER Did you give instructions that there should be no looting? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. MR BERGER Is that also unusual? MR MKHIZE Normally when you are engaged in fighting, there is no time to be also engaged in looting. MR BERGER So did it surprise you to learn that there was large scale looting during the massacre? MR MKHIZE Yes, it did surprise me when I heard that some people's property had been looted. MR BERGER Did you give any instructions that women and children and old people should not be harmed during the attack? MR MKHIZE Even though there was no direct instruction to that effect, the people that we had actually targeted were SDU members, who I suppose were not children and were not elderly people. MR BERGER Did you give any instructions that no property should be damaged during the attack? MR MKHIZE We did not discuss property, we did not discuss people's property when we were actually discussing the attack. MR BERGER You say it surprised you that people plundered and looted property during the attack, that surprised you, am I right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is what I said. MR BERGER Why do you say in your statement, on page 77 at the bottom, that you gave the instruction to plunder? MR MKHIZE This must have been a mistake. MR BERGER Oh no, let me read to you what you said in your statement. An instruction was given by me, to break the windows of the houses, and to loot and plunder. You confirmed this statement this morning. MR MKHIZE I do not have knowledge thereof, I did not instruct anybody to break windows. MR BERGER Just as you didn't instruct anybody to rape and just as you did not instruct anybody to kill women and children and old people, just the same? MR MKHIZE Yes, I didn't do it. MR BERGER Isn't it correct that anyone and anything, no matter how old, how young, anyone was a target in Boipatong? Wasn't that the order when the attack began? MR MKHIZE No, that was not the instruction. The people that we targeted in Boipatong, were SDU's. I do not dispute that other people were also injured, because as it happened, it was dark and we could not see clearly who was who. MR BERGER You don't dispute that there were IFP members living in Boipatong, who were injured or killed during the attack? You don't dispute that? MR MKHIZE I do dispute that. There was no IFP member residing in Boipatong at that time, because people had been killed and some of them had even fled the area, they had actually fled to kwaMadala hostel. I don't believe that there was any IFP member living in the area at the time. MR BERGER Themba Khoza the leader of the IFP in the Transvaal said both during the criminal trial, and in press statements immediately after the attack, that there were IFP members and supporters living in Boipatong and it was ludicrous to think that the IFP could be responsible for an attack on their own people. Was Mr Khoza not telling the truth when he said that there were IFP members living in Boipatong and sympathizers? MR MKHIZE I would not be able to dispute that, that must have been his knowledge, but as far as I know, there were no IFP people living in Boipatong at that time. He must have been referring to something that he knew. MR BERGER Isn't it correct Mr Mkhize, that there was no way in which you and the other attackers could say as you rampaged through Boipatong and Slovo Park, could say whether that particular person was a member of the ANC, a sympathiser of the ANC, a member of the IFP, a member of the SDU, you just didn't know. You went through the township, killing everyone and anyone who didn't have a red or white band around their forehead, isn't that in reality what happened? MR MKHIZE What I am saying is that there was no IFP member living in Boipatong at that time. What I did mention also, was that there was no control at that time, when the attack took place. MR BERGER And that is because an order was given to kill everyone and anyone in Boipatong, in fact to destroy the entire township, isn't that what the order was? MR MKHIZE I do not know how many times do I have to repeat myself. MR BERGER Well, when you got into Boipatong, you fired you say in your statement, at a Self Defence Unit near the shops. Am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Did they fire back at you? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And then did you run after them as they ran away? MR MKHIZE Yes, we did chase after them, but we could not catch up with them. MR BERGER Where did they run to? MR MKHIZE Towards Slovo Park. MR BERGER So then why did you and your men start destroying houses and going into houses in Boipatong? MR MKHIZE I said I do not know about that, because that happened because people were out of control, you could no longer control them. MR BERGER But you too, you also went through the township? You were moving through the township and you were firing as you moved through the township, isn't that right? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR BERGER You yourself, were moving through Boipatong and you were firing as you were going along. Were you also out of control? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER At page 78 you say, a third of the way down, you said it was dark and we were many. We moved through the residential area and there was sporadic gunfire. You yourself were going through, is that right, shooting as you went? MR MKHIZE I said I actually fired when I saw people near the shop, but I did not shoot at random in the streets. MR BERGER So you only fired at the shops, is that all? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is right. I would say yes, I did shoot near the shops and although I cannot remember if that was the only time, I cannot remember firing at any other point. MR BERGER And you don't know if you killed anybody? MR MKHIZE No, I do not. MR BERGER You never fired any shots in Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did fire when we were at Slovo Park. MR BERGER You never saw any dead people in Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. MR BERGER You only learnt the following day that people had died during the attack, you did not know that night that people had been killed? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER I want to read to you what you said in your statement to the police, Exhibit E. You said we were a big group - let me start at page 4 - you are talking about being at the stadium and you talk about a person Situndwa Zulu. Who is Situndwa Zulu? MR MKHIZE I don't remember such a person. MR BERGER Who is Samsondwase Ngema? MR MKHIZE Samson? MR BERGER Samsondwase Ngema? You don't know? MR MKHIZE I do not know him. MR BERGER You say in your statement page 5, that I had an AK47 with me with a magazine which was full of AK47 bullets, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER In other words, this is the truth what I have just read? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR BERGER You also say page 5, that you left the stadium and you went across the road, you crossed the road which runs next to the hostel, to where the houses begin, which is correct, am I right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Then you say when we came to the houses, those who had assegai's went into the houses, to stab the people. Is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER It is the truth? MR MKHIZE I think so, although a long time has elapsed since. MR BERGER Then you say I and the others who waited outside, shot at those people from the houses, who ran outside and were trying to run away. So what you are saying is some AmaButho with spears, went into the houses to stab the people and as the people were coming out of the houses to run away, you and others stood there with your AK47's, and shot at them. That is the truth, isn't that? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER So it is not true that you only fired shots at the shops and in Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE I did also say that I also fired with my firearm when we were going towards Slovo Park. MR BERGER You say in the statement that you fired five shots with your AK47 at people who were running away? Is that true? MR MKHIZE I don't think it was five times. It could have been more. MR BERGER Did you empty your magazine in Boipatong and Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE No. MR BERGER How did the attack come to an end, how did you know that the attack was ending? MR MKHIZE When we assembled at Slovo Park, we just turned back and returned home. MR BERGER Hundreds of you in Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE I beg your pardon? MR BERGER All the AmaButho finally got to Slovo Park, is that what you are saying, and then you turned back? MR MKHIZE Yes, we returned to the hostel thereafter. MR BERGER But you hadn't attacked the whole of Boipatong, certain areas were left out, why? MR MKHIZE We realised that if we were to continue, we would end up being arrested. MR BERGER And when did you realise this? MR MKHIZE When we assembled at Slovo Park, we decided that we should actually return to the hostel. MR BERGER It suddenly dawned on you after an hour to an hour and a half, that the police might come and arrest you? MR MKHIZE Yes, that occurred to us. MR BERGER On your way back to kwaMadala, did you see any police or army vehicles? MR MKHIZE The problem with you is that you ask me one and the same question. I did say that I only saw one car. MR BERGER The problem Mr Mkhize is that you don't listen to my question. My question is as you were moving back to kwaMadala, did you see any police or army vehicles? The vehicle that you spoke about was the vehicle that you saw when you were moving towards Boipatong. MR MKHIZE I said I saw that vehicle on our way back. It was proceeding towards Sebokeng. I did not say I saw it on our way to Boipatong. MR BERGER So if that vehicle had stopped, the one that you saw on your way back, if it had stopped, then you would have done what, because I remember your answer before was, if the vehicle had stopped, then we wouldn't have continued to go and attack? Please explain what you would have done if it stopped? CHAIRPERSON He didn't, he didn't say that. He said we would have run away. We would have known that we would be arrested. MR BERGER Chairperson, my recollection of the witness' evidence is that on their way to Boipatong, they saw this vehicle moving along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard. If the vehicle had stopped, they would have known that they would have been arrested, they wouldn't have continued going towards Boipatong. The vehicle continued driving. CHAIRPERSON He didn't add the part that you are adding. MR BERGER The witness said that they were on their way to Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON His original evidence was that he saw this motor vehicle when they were on their way, that is what he said initially. MR BERGER Not on their way to Boipatong? CHAIRPERSON That was his initial evidence. Under cross-examination when there was a confusion, when he said this motor vehicle was proceeding towards Sebokeng I think it was, and it was put to him that they were on their way to Boipatong. MR BERGER And he said yes? Anyway, it is on record. Mr Mkhize, then to clarify, is it your evidence that on your way from kwaMadala to Boipatong, you saw no vehicles, no army, no police vehicles as you were approaching Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. I did not see any vehicle. I did not see any army vehicle, nor police vehicle. MR BERGER And the caspir that you referred to, that you saw driving towards Sebokeng, that is the caspir that you saw on your way back to kwaMadala? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER I put it to you that you are changing your evidence, but I will argue that. The caspir that you saw, or the only caspir that you saw, you say if it had stopped, then you might have been arrested, but it didn't stop, it continued going towards Sebokeng? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER If it had stopped, what would you have done? MR MKHIZE We would have run away. There was no other option, except to flee. MR BERGER We know that there was in fact a military vehicle stationed near the corner of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard, that is where that Trek garage was, we know that that - I believe it is either a caspir or a buffel, was stationed there as you were making your way back to kwaMadala. Are you saying that you never saw that vehicle? MR MKHIZE No, I did not see it. The only vehicle that I saw, is the one that I mentioned before. MR BERGER And that is the vehicle which did not stop, it continued driving towards Sebokeng? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER In fact, we know that soldiers got out of that vehicle and stopped the traffic from proceeding, this is the vehicle traffic from proceeding along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, in your direction. You never saw that? MR MKHIZE No, I did not see it. MR BERGER So there was no reason for you to run, and I take it you did not run? MR MKHIZE We did not run because the vehicle did not stop. MR BERGER And hundreds of armed men, carrying looted property with blood dripping from spears and blankets, walked from Boipatong back to kwaMadala along the same route that they had taken to come out of kwaMadala, is that right? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR BERGER Walked under the bridge again, along that road, and re-entered kwaMadala through the main gate? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Nobody went running and hiding in the marsh or the veld outside kwaMadala, you all entered through the main gate? MR MKHIZE Yes, we all went through the main gate. MR BERGER How is it that you only became aware that property was looted from Boipatong, the following morning? Remember you said you only became aware the following morning? MR MKHIZE Yes. I just heard rumours that some things had been looted from Boipatong. MR BERGER But you were the Commander of these men, surely you remained behind until all your men had got into the hostel, so that you could be satisfied that they had safely returned to base, isn't that what you did as a Commander? MR MKHIZE Yes, I should have, but it did not happen because we all went through the gate at the same time. MR BERGER And you went from the gate, you went to the stadium, you went back to the stadium, didn't you? MR MKHIZE No, that is not so. We went to our rooms. MR BERGER Let me read to you what you said to the police, page 5. When we were finished with the attack, the whole group returned to the hostel. We again went or assembled at the stadium, and Situndwa told us to hide our weapons away. MR MKHIZE I do not know anything about this statement. MR BERGER Well, it is your statement. Is there any reason why you would have lied about re-assembling at the stadium if you didn't re-assemble at the stadium? There would be no reason to tell such a lie, would there be? MR MKHIZE I did mention before that a lot of what was said or a lot of statements that were made to the police, were under duress because we were being assaulted at the time. There was no person who could have given me an instruction because the only single person who was the Prince, was away. MR BERGER We know that large items were looted from Boipatong. We know that there was a grandfather clock, there were TV sets, there were quantities of meat stolen from freezers, there was a lot of heavy stuff looted from Boipatong, big stuff. Are you saying that you were unaware of anyone carrying such heavy stuff back to the hostel? MR MKHIZE I said it a long while ago, that I was not aware of any property being looted when we returned to the hostel. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga says that he himself, took a TV set and money, he put the TV into a caspir and he says that there were other TV's, hi-fi's, blankets in the caspir when he put his in. He says that all of this looted property was transported back to the hostel in the caspirs. MR MKHIZE I would like you to disregard what Nosenga is saying, because even the fact that there were police present there, is a mistake, that is not true. MR BERGER By the way, whilst we are on the question of mistakes, in your statement on page 77, you talk about white bands, two thirds of the way down, white bands being handed out to wear as head bands before the attack. Would that also be a mistake? MR MKHIZE I did not say it was a mistake. I said there were those head bands. MR BERGER You specifically said there were no white head bands, didn't you or am I wrong? MR MKHIZE I said I did not remember clearly whether it was red or white head bands that were used. MR BERGER Mr Nosenga says that after you returned to the hostel, you all washed using a certain muti which was provided for by Chief Mtwana Zulu. You were all happy and chanting and singing. MR MKHIZE That is not true. MR BERGER So when you got back to the hostel, there was no celebration that you had finally destroyed the enemy in Boipatong, you all just went back to your own rooms, there was no ... MR MKHIZE We just went back to our rooms. MR BERGER There was no discussion at all about the attack? MR MKHIZE No. There was no discussion because it was late at night. MR BERGER What did you do with your weapons? MR MKHIZE We stored our weapons. MR BERGER The next day, the 18th, is it correct that Themba Khoza came to the hostel? MR MKHIZE I do not remember quite clearly, but I think he did arrive at the hostel, that was the day when he actually pleaded with us to cooperate with the police. MR BERGER You were asked this question, question 22 on page 68, did Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visit kwaMadala after the attack and your answer, page 74, paragraph 22, is yes. So you admit that Themba Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu did come to the hostel? MR MKHIZE Yes, I remember. MR BERGER That was the following day, that was when Themba Khoza said you must cooperate with the police? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think it was on the following day. If not that day, it could have been the 19th, but I think it was on the following day of the attack. MR BERGER Then you were asked in paragraph 22.1, page 68, to give particulars of the nature of this visit and your answer was that they, that is Themba Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu just wanted to find out what had happened. We denied all allegations. MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Do you say that that is correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER You denied the allegations because you knew that the attack was not IFP policy, is that right? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER Then you were asked did Mr Khoza warn hostel dwellers at a meeting that they should burn all the evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel, and clothes stained with blood, and that should read including goods stolen from Boipatong and clothes stained with blood, and your answer was no. Mr Themba Khoza did not instruct that the evidence should be burnt. Is that still your answer? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER You know that Mr Victor Mthembu contradicts you. He says Themba Khoza did come, Themba Khoza did instruct that the evidence should be burnt. Why should he say such a thing if it is not true? MR MKHIZE I do not know. I did not hear Mr Khoza saying that. MR BERGER He is not alone on this, because - I am sorry, I am just trying to find out who it is - no, I am incorrect, what Mr Nosenga says is that the following day, paragraph 25, Themba Khoza came to collect the weapons. He says we were told that other policemen, not the policemen from Vereeniging, would come and search for weapons. Khoza was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day. Your comment please? MR MKHIZE I do not know anything about that. MR BERGER You do know of course, that a decision was taken to burn the evidence from Boipatong or do you not? MR MKHIZE I already told you that I do not have any knowledge thereof. MR BERGER Do you know that a decision was taken to burn the evidence from Boipatong? MR MKHIZE I don't know what else to tell you now, because you are asking me this question for the fourth or fifth time, and I have already told you I did not know that there was property that was looted from Boipatong. When I heard of it, I could not find the said property. MR BERGER Do you know that that property was burnt? MR MKHIZE No. I think I should not respond to your question any more. MR BERGER All right Mr Mkhize, I was giving you an opportunity to be clear, because at page 78 of your statement, you say the following - I learnt ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Which statement is that? MR BERGER Page 78, it is a statement attached to his amnesty application, middle of the page, I learnt first the following day, I heard first the following day that many people had been killed. Then you say some of the residents had brought to the hostel, goods which had been in the houses of Boipatong. Then you say, it was decided to burn the evidence. That is why I was asking you that question so many times, Mr Mkhize. Perhaps now you know about the decision to burn the evidence? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember any such decision. MR BERGER Why is it in your statement then? MR MKHIZE I do not know. I do not know how it came about, I do not remember anything of this sort. MR BERGER You know very well that it was Themba Khoza who ordered that the evidence was burnt, and you don't want to reveal that now, correct? No comment? By the way the statement that we are referring to, was made by you on the 23rd of May 1998 and it was confirmed by you this morning, correct? MR MKHIZE How did I confirm it? MR BERGER You were asked by your Advocate and you confirmed it. You say you have no knowledge about the rally in Ulundi, approximately one month after the attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE I do not remember because there many rallies that were held. MR BERGER Did anyone ever tell you that at this rally, the leader of the IFP, Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi, had given a speech in which he thanked Mr Nosenga and others who were there for the good job that they had done in Boipatong? MR MKHIZE That is not true. The Chief would have never praised or thanked the people for doing something of this sort. No one amongst IFP members would have gone and informed the Chief about such an act. MR BERGER I am reading from paragraph 26 on page 22 of Mr Nosenga's statement. He also says in that same paragraph that they travelled in a kombi, driven by Darkie, that would be Darkie Qunchu. He says that Darkie's uncle owned the kombi. You have told the Committee that Damara Qunchu owned a kombi, is that correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER In the judgement of the criminal court, at page 295 to 297, the Judge found that you had been in possession of an AK47. That finding is correct not so? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER The Judge also found that a meeting had been held, well he said that although he was of the opinion that the attack on Boipatong must have been planned, well planned in advance, he couldn't say that there was enough evidence to prove that there was this meeting two weeks before the attack. We now know that there was such a meeting, correct? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER The Judge also said at page 3744, 296 of the bundle, page 3744 of the record, that you confirmed - I am not sure, I am trying to translate from the Afrikaans. CHAIRPERSON Why don't you get somebody to do the translation, whilst you get on with the other questions? MR BERGER Chairperson, I can understand Afrikaans, I am just trying not to be inaccurate. CHAIRPERSON Yes, then put the question to him. MR BERGER You confirmed in court that as part of the military attire, bands were worn around the head and you also corroborated that Moses Mthembu, accused 73, Moses Mthembu, was a leader to the extent that you couldn't decide on your own that the residents should go out on attack. You required the approval of Moses Mthembu. Do you remember saying that? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember that, but Moses Mthembu was indeed senior. MR BERGER So you required the approval of Moses Mthembu before you could take the residents out of the hostel that night, the night of the attack? MR MKHIZE It was not easy to inform Mthembu about this. MR BERGER Why not? MR MKHIZE He was an elder and a senior. MR BERGER So you chose to bypass him? MR MKHIZE Yes. MR BERGER Why did you choose the 17th of June as the date for the attack? MR MKHIZE It was a coincidence, there was no major reason why that date was chosen. MR BERGER Was it a coincidence that it came immediately after the June 16 commemoration? MR MKHIZE That is so, it was just a coincidence. MR BERGER Was it also a coincidence that the ANC suspended their negotiations with the government as a result of the massacre in Boipatong? MR MKHIZE Please repeat the question. MR BERGER I am asking you was it a coincidence that it happened, because you are saying that was not the intended result that the ANC pulled out of the negotiations as a result of this massacre. MR MKHIZE It was a coincidence. MR BERGER I just have some isolated questions and then I will be done Mr Mkhize. You don't know who rang the alarm that night, but it wasn't the person who usually rang the alarm? MR MKHIZE I do not remember really who did ring the alarm, but the person who would normally blow the trumpet, was Manqeli. MR BERGER You said in your evidence in chief at one point, that you did not give anyone an instruction to sound the alarm, then shortly thereafter you said that you did give someone an instruction to sound the alarm, what is the position? MR MKHIZE The person who was responsible for the trumpet was Manqeli. I do not remember whether on this particular day, he was present or not. MR BERGER My question was did you or did you not give someone an instruction to sound the alarm? MR MKHIZE I do not remember. MR BERGER When you were firing with an AK47, you were not alone, there were other people firing with an AK47 and there were people firing shotguns and there were people firing pistols. What did you do with the empty shells that would have been ejected from your guns? MR MKHIZE There was nothing that we could do about those shells, we just left them on the ground, because it was dark. MR BERGER There was no mechanism employed to collect those shells or to make sure that they were not left behind? MR MKHIZE It was at night and dark and there was no way you could have been able to pick them up. MR BERGER Have you any explanation for the fact that the police only recovered about eight, I might be incorrect with the number, but it was approximately eight, empty shells and all the other shells that must have been ejected from the AK47's, shotguns, 9 mm's, none of those shells were found? MR MKHIZE I would not dispute that, but I do not know how that happened. MR BERGER And the shells that were recovered, were destroyed by the police. Do you know about that? MR MKHIZE No, I do not. MR BERGER Is it correct that the police only came to the hostel the following day, did not close off or surround the hostel that night? MR MKHIZE I do not remember well, but I know that the police did arrive. MR BERGER I think it was 16 hours after the attack that the police sealed off the hostel, would that be correct? MR MKHIZE I would not dispute it. What I remember is that the police came and they cordoned off the hostel and no one could get in or out of the hostel. MR BERGER Yes, but that was only the following day? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. MR BERGER After Mr Themba Khoza had arrived? MR MKHIZE Even though I do not remember well, but I think it might have been after. MR BERGER And the weapons which were taken by the police, were just put into a big pile in the hostel and taken away. There was no attempt made to determine to whom each weapon belonged, am I correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, I think they confiscated spears, not guns. MR BERGER Did I understand you correctly, Mr Mkhize, when you said that the reason you feel sorry is because you are sorry that you didn't kill the members of the SDU's, and that you killed innocent people instead? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER What was Mr Themba Mabote armed with? MR MKHIZE Although I did not see him, I heard that he had a small firearm. MR BERGER Did you not tell Mr Da Silva that you knew what gun Mr Mabote fired with? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. MR BERGER Thank you Mr Mkhize, I have no more questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I have no questions for the witness. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR STRYDOM No re-examination Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR STRYDOM I have already indicated no re-examination. MS TANZER No re-examination Your Worship. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Any further questions you would like to put Ma'am? MS PRETORIUS No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Da Silva? MR DA SILVA I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lax? MR LAX Mr Mkhize, you indicated in your early part of your cross-examination when you were being questioned by Ms Tanzer, that you had received threats from some of the residents. Do you remember saying that? MR MKHIZE Yes, I do. MR LAX Who gave you those threats, which residents? MR MKHIZE I already mentioned that those threats were from the residents of the hostel. MR LAX I am asking you which residents threatened you? CHAIRPERSON When you say you feared that you could be attacked by the residents of kwaMadala, what do you mean? MR MKHIZE I mean that when they placed these complaints that they were being attacked and killed by people from Boipatong, they actually uttered that if I could not protect them, or if I could not take a decision about what to do, they would actually take the matter into their own hands. Even though they did not give a direct threat, but that is what I thought. CHAIRPERSON Did any of the residents of the hostel directly threaten you? MR MKHIZE No. But the residents in general were complaining that they were being killed and I was not taking any action. MR LAX You said that you were elected to this position as head of the AmaButho, why didn't you just resign if you didn't want to go on with this attack? MR MKHIZE It did occur to me, but I thought that would make no difference because the situation was such that it had already gone too far. MR LAX But you see, you have already told us that it wasn't IFP policy to do this sort of thing, correct? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX You also told us that Mtwana didn't want you to do this sort of thing, he wanted you to wait. MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR LAX You told us you didn't want this attack to happen yourself? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR LAX So why did you have anything to do with it, why didn't you just resign and leave it? You could have said let them do it if they want to do it, I don't want to be any part of this. MR MKHIZE It was because of the fear and confusion I felt at that time, because people were indeed dying. MR LAX So you were on the one hand, slightly in favour of this attack as well, is this what you are saying? You said there was confusion. Was the confusion in your own mind? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is what I mean. MR LAX Who gave the order to return back to the hostel once you had got to Slovo Park and you had assembled there? MR MKHIZE I gave that order and Mr Qunchu as well. MR LAX So you met Qunchu at Slovo Park? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR LAX So his group and your group had obviously joined up by that time? MR MKHIZE Yes, we had joined up at the time. MR LAX And then you jointly left the area back to kwaMadala? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX And did you follow a different path on your way out of the township or did you follow the same path? MR MKHIZE We took a different route. We actually took a route that was actually towards the township. MR LAX Please explain what you mean by that, towards the township? MR MKHIZE We were actually going up towards the hostel. When we went to the township, we took an easterly route, but when we returned, we actually took a route in the opposite direction. MR LAX The question was did you take a different route on your way back through the township, not a different direction? MR MKHIZE It was a different route. MR LAX Are you able to describe that route to us at all? Do you remember any of the roads that you went through? Did you come out at a different place, can you describe that place, that is what we are trying to understand? MR MKHIZE No, I do not remember. It was a road that actually went up. MR LAX When you came out of Boipatong, did you come out near the factories, near the firms? MR MKHIZE On the inside of the township, but it was near the firms. MR LAX When you went in, you went in much more on the other side, closer towards what your lawyer referred to as the highway? MR MKHIZE Please repeat that. MR LAX When you went in, you went in on the other side, much more of a westerly side, westerly part of the township? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Adv Sigodi? ADV SIGODI I have no questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkhize, in your capacity as the Commander or leader of AmaButho, did you have power or authority to take such a decision to attack the residents, or were you supposed to get approval from any person above you? MR MKHIZE No. I did have the authority. MR SIBANYONI After you converged at Slovo Park and you started moving back towards the hostel, were there any attacks on the residents of Boipatong? MR MKHIZE I did not hear, please repeat the question. MR SIBANYONI You said you broke up into two groups and you met at Slovo Park, and then thereafter you started going back to the hostel. My question is, were there any attacks on the residents inside Boipatong, not in Slovo Park, inside Boipatong when you were moving back? MR MKHIZE No, there were no further attacks on Boipatong. MR SIBANYONI Was Prince Vanana Zulu aware of the pressure which was mounting for the people to attack, was he aware that you were under pressure to make such a decision? MR MKHIZE Yes, I had informed him before, but he was not present on this particular day. He requested me to inform the people to hold on so that he could communicate with leaders from Boipatong. On the day of the attack, the Prince was not present. MR SIBANYONI You said a decision to attack, was taken some time before the actual attack. Was Mr Zulu aware that the attack was now going to take place? MR MKHIZE No, he was not aware. He was in fact not in favour of carrying out such an attack. MR SIBANYONI So when he left to Natal, was the decision already taken or it was not yet taken? MR MKHIZE Yes, it had been taken already. But it had not been decided exactly when the date would be. He was not aware that such a decision had been taken, because he did not approve of it. MR SIBANYONI We are aware that this attack took place at night, but is it possible for you to give a rough estimation of the number of the people who participated in this attack, a rough estimation? MR MKHIZE It would not be easy to estimate the number, but there were many people who were there, because everyone who was in the hostel, actually went out on the attack. MR SIBANYONI Lastly, you said you saw the caspir travelling on the road. Was it at such a distance that the people in the caspir would easily identify you, easily see the group, your group of people coming from Boipatong? Was it at such a distance? MR MKHIZE It was a bit far so it was possible that they could have seen us, or maybe they could have not, I do not know. MR SIBANYONI When you left, I am sorry Mr Chairperson, two more questions, when you left the hostel, where were the security which were supposed to be at the gate? MR MKHIZE They were not at the gate, I did not see them. MR SIBANYONI And when you returned? MR MKHIZE No, they were not present. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you Chair, just one question that arose out of my colleague's question. Did Vanana Zulu ever speak to you after the attack, on his return from kwaZulu and say to you what is going on, why did you do this thing, why did you just go ahead, you knew I didn't want this to happen? Did he ever question you about it? MR MKHIZE No, it was not possible for that to happen because the police arrested us and we did not get an opportunity to discuss that. MR LAX Even up until today? MR MKHIZE Well, we did explain as we were seeking, or as we were preparing to seek amnesty. MR LAX And what was his attitude? MR MKHIZE He complained. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In relation to the day when you went to attack Boipatong, when did the people in the hostel begin to complain about no action being taken against Boipatong residents? MR MKHIZE They had been complaining for quite a while, although I will not be able to specify exactly when. As from the first time, the first day when people were killed, the people started complaining. CHAIRPERSON What was the nature of their complaints? MR MKHIZE They were complaining that they were being killed, they were being eliminated and no action was being taken by the leadership. CHAIRPERSON To whom were these complaints addressed? MR MKHIZE Although I do not know whether they did address these complaints to Prince Vanana, but in most instances, they were addressed to me. CHAIRPERSON Did the committee of which you are a member, ever discuss this complaints? MR MKHIZE No. They were never discussed. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR MKHIZE I am not sure. It could be because it had never been brought to their attention. CHAIRPERSON But did you not as a member of that committee, raise the matter with the committee? MR MKHIZE No, I did not discuss it with them. The only person I reported it to, was the Prince. CHAIRPERSON Did you perhaps attempt to seek guidance from senior members of the IFP, apart from Mr Vanana Zulu? MR MKHIZE No, I did not. I did not inform anyone who was senior to him. CHAIRPERSON Yes. As I understand your evidence, you said that as the leader of AmaButho, you had the authority to order the attack? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why people would come to you with this complaint and not to the other members of the IFP? MR MKHIZE Yes. They came to me because they knew that I was the leader of AmaButho. I was the one who would actually take their complaints forward to the Prince. CHAIRPERSON Did you get the feeling that they came to you because you had the authority to order the attack? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON As I understand the position, there were regular patrols around the hostel, kwaMadala? MR MKHIZE The patrols were normally at the firm, not necessarily in the hostel where we resided. CHAIRPERSON In the course of the patrols, did the police or the army, come to the hostel or at least to the gates of the hostel? MR MKHIZE Sometimes they would come to the hostel and we will see them if they came during the day. CHAIRPERSON The entrances to the hostel, how many were there? MR MKHIZE There is one main gate. CHAIRPERSON And is this gate manned by security officers? MR MKHIZE Initially there was no security, but as time went on, there was somebody who was posted at the gate. CHAIRPERSON When was this individual posted at the gate? MR MKHIZE Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think it was after, subsequent to the attack. CHAIRPERSON Do you know any reason why there would have been a security at the gate only after the attack? MR MKHIZE No, I do not know. CHAIRPERSON Yes. As you prepared, you have been asked this question and I am going to repeat it, as you prepared to leave the hostel, armed in the manner in which you described, did it not occur to you that you might come across one of the police patrols before you reach Boipatong? MR MKHIZE It did not occur, but it did not occur at that particular point when we actually proceeded to Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Why is that so? MR MKHIZE I do not know why, but I did not think of it. CHAIRPERSON I take it because you were the Commander, and you would ordinarily be concerned about the safety of your men, were you not? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON What steps if any, did you then take to ensure that they would not be exposed to any arrest by the police? MR MKHIZE I did not take any steps. What was on my mind, was that we were just going to go out and launch this attack. No one questioned if we were ever going to meet police or if we were going to be arrested. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is it a fact that prior to the 17th of June, which is the day of the attack, or at least immediately before that day, it was generally known in the hostel, that there will be an attack on Boipatong? MR MKHIZE I do not think that is true, because no one had been informed about the decision. We feared that if that information were to leak, it could even get to the police. CHAIRPERSON I am not saying that it was known that the attack was going to take place on the 17th, but what was known was that there will be an attack at some point, at some future date? MR MKHIZE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Was this announced at a public meeting? MR MKHIZE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did you make that announcement? MR MKHIZE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON You may have been asked this question, but let me ask you again, do you know Andries Matanzima Nosenga? MR MKHIZE I do not know him. CHAIRPERSON Have you ever heard the name Nosenga at any stage? MR MKHIZE I have heard of the name Matanzima, although I have never seen the person. CHAIRPERSON What did you know about Matanzima? What did you know about the name Matanzima? MR MKHIZE I heard that there was a certain Matanzima who had actually arrived at the hostel when we were arrested, and he said that he had been actually sent to go and kill people. CHAIRPERSON It is Nosenga, but this was only after you had been arrested? MR MKHIZE Yes, after we had been arrested. I do not know him at all. I don't think he would be able to identify me, himself. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I just want to give you the opportunity to comment if you will, on the allegation that he made. You see, he has made a sworn statement which is to the effect that there were police who escorted AmaButho into Boipatong. Your evidence is that there were no police? MR MKHIZE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you perhaps think of any reason why Nosenga will make this allegations? MR MKHIZE What he is saying, is not true. It is not the truth at all. CHAIRPERSON Can you think of any reason why he would make this allegation? MR MKHIZE I do not know. The allegation that there were police accompanying people or who were transporting people, is not true. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we have been furnished with a memorandum which was submitted on behalf of the victims, one of the allegations which they make, is that white men were seen amongst the attackers in Boipatong. Did you understand that? MR MKHIZE Yes, I understand you. CHAIRPERSON What do you say to these allegations? MR MKHIZE What I can say is that it is not true. As I mentioned before, I did not understand why when seeking amnesty, I would hide or fear to divulge information on who was present. I would actually give all that information, if the police were present, I would say they were part of that attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is there a possibility that because of the large numbers of persons who were in Boipatong to attack, and the size of Boipatong, there were police but you didn't see them? MR MKHIZE I would dispute that, because there was no car, no vehicle that was seen in that vicinity at that time. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Very well, thank you Mr Mkhize. MR BERGER Chairperson, might I ask two questions flowing from questions from the Chair? CHAIRPERSON Yes. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you. Mr Mkhize, how many days before the attack on Boipatong, did you make the public announcement that there was to be an attack on Boipatong, without giving the date? How many days before the actual attack, did you make that public announcement that Boipatong was going to be attacked? MR MKHIZE I mentioned before that I have forgotten what time lapsed before the actual date. MR BERGER Approximately how many days? Three days, a week? MR MKHIZE It could have been a week or more. MR BERGER You have told the Committee that your immediate superior, Vanana Zulu, specifically told you not to launch an attack on Boipatong, and yet you say that you had authority to launch the attack on Boipatong. From where or from whom did you get that authority? MR MKHIZE I did say that I had the authority because the Prince was not present. MR BERGER No, the Prince had told you that when he is not there, you are not to launch an attack on Boipatong, correct? MR MKHIZE The Prince said we should wait. He did not specifically tell us not to launch an attack in his absence. MR BERGER He said you should wait before you launched an attack, wait for him to come back. My question remains from whom or from where do you say you had authority to launch an attack? MR MKHIZE What I am saying to you is that the Prince was absent, he had gone home and therefore I had that authority to launch an attack. He did not issue an instruction that we should not attack in his absence. MR BERGER According to you, Mtwana Zulu said that you should allow him to speak to the residents of Boipatong, that there should not be an attack, that was your evidence? MR MKHIZE That is correct. MR BERGER So who gave you the authority to launch that attack? MR MKHIZE No one. I took it upon myself, because people were dying continuously. MR BERGER Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mkhize, you may step down. Before you return to your seat, because would be rising shortly, there are a couple of matters that we have to deal with. Firstly Mlupeki Tshabangu and Sipho Buthelezi, you were not present at these hearings when we resumed yesterday, is that right? Would you please come forward and speak next to the microphone. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BUTHELEZI I am Sipho Buthelezi. CHAIRPERSON You were not present yesterday when the matter resumed? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was the reason for that? MR BUTHELEZI I was actually waiting for the people who normally transport us to the venue, to pick me up. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only reason? Do you understand English or do you want me to speak in Zulu? MR BUTHELEZI I was prevented from arriving here yesterday by the fact that I was waiting for the people who normally pick us up and they did not arrive. One other reason is that I did not have money so that I could travel on my own. CHAIRPERSON Who was supposed to bring you here? MR BUTHELEZI I am referring to the two white persons. CHAIRPERSON Are you in custody? MR BUTHELEZI No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabangu, you were not here when we resumed yesterday? MR TSHABANGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is the reason? MR TSHABANGU There was a communication problem. On the last day of the previous sitting, I had requested at the previous hearing that I should be contacted by the people who are my co-applicants and I could not contact them telephonically. On Monday morning I assumed that the people who normally pick us up, would come for me, but they did not arrive. CHAIRPERSON You see, you are the applicant, both of you are the applicants in this matter. You have the obligation to ensure that you are here so that your application can be heard. I know that we have heard your evidence, but we haven't heard the evidence of Buthelezi. Do you understand that? MR TSHABANGU Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON I think in future, this will not be tolerated. You must make sure that you are here in time. If there are any problems, notify your Attorneys that you have a problem, so that there are no delays. I am not suggesting that we did not proceed yesterday because you were not there, but it may well occur in future that your absence may lead to a delay. It is in your interest to be here always, because the evidence that may be given here, may effect you one way or the other, and you've got to hear that evidence and give instructions to your Attorney so that that evidence if necessary, can be disputed. Do you understand that? MR TSHABANGU Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON I cannot pronounce your name, how do you pronounce your name? MR SHELLBERG Shellberg. CHAIRPERSON Shellberg? MR SHELLBERG That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shellberg, in regard to Mr Nosenga, you have now had the opportunity to interview him in the presence of his legal representative. MR SHELLBERG Yes Mr Chairperson. I have interviewed Mr Nosenga, together with Ms Tanzer CHAIRPERSON I am sorry, you may return to your seat gentlemen. MR SHELLBERG Based on the information that I obtained, I have recommended that the Witness Protection Unit that has already been in place since this morning, should be stepped up. I have also been in contact with the prison authorities to change, or to step up the security concerning Mr Nosenga in the prison, and I also had discussions with the police present at this location, also to make sure that the protection is as good as it can be. CHAIRPERSON Have you discussed these matters with Mr Nosenga and his legal representative? MR SHELLBERG Yes, we have discussed this together and Mr Nosenga is satisfied with these arrangements. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Do you confirm that Ma'am? MS TANZER I do Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Thank you Mr Shellberg. We will leave the matter in your hands then, to make sure that he is afforded the necessary protection. MR SHELLBERG Yes, thank you. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, if I ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON On the issue of protection? MR STRYDOM No, I thought that issue was dealt with, I've got another issue. CHAIRPERSON No, no. I think for the record, Mr Shellberg, would you convey to the responsible Head of the Prison, where these threats are supposed to emanate from, that these threats have been made, we are told, that there have been threats made against Mr Nosenga and if he could please to investigate these allegations and then report back to you and then you can give us a report in due course because I consider it to be a fairly serious matter, if a witness is threatened in any manner whatsoever. MR SHELLBERG Yes, I will do so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I would like to get a directive from the Committee with regard to applicants that have already testified. Are they under obligation to remain present, I would assume that it would be in their interest to remain present to give instructions if there are certain things said against them, but I would just like to get a directive as to the legal situation, if they are - if they have to be here? CHAIRPERSON Well, it would seem to be prima facie that to the extent that a decision has been made, that their applications would be heard together, and they have to remain here until the applications have been finalised. Having said that, however, it may well be necessary that the applicant may wish to be excused for whatever reason. It is a matter which we would have to consider as and when it arises. But I would have thought that it would be in the interest of each and every applicant to be present throughout the proceedings, so that they can hear for themselves what evidence is being given and if there is any evidence that is given, which is prejudicial to them, they should be in a position to give instructions to their legal representative, a matter which they can't do if they are not here. MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson, I am faced with such a situation because one of the applicants, Mr Tshabangu, must attend certain lectures, he is busy studying some course and he told me that he must attend certain lectures tomorrow. That is the reason why I asked for this directive. CHAIRPERSON Well, the Committee has no objections to him being excused, as long as there is someone here who is going to look after his interest. If his legal representative is here, we don't have a problem with that, so he may be excused. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Another matter which I want to raise, and this is directed to you Mr Shellberg and Mr Mapoma. The affidavit of Mr Nosenga which was handed in this morning, directly implicates the police in the attack. It seems to me that the police must therefore be given the necessary notice under the Act. Would you make sure that that notice is sent out to the police as soon as it is practicable to do so? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, I will do that. CHAIRPERSON Is there any matter that Counsel wishes to raise? MR DA SILVA Mr Chairperson, there is one aspect that perturbs me. You referred in the cross-examination of the previous witness, previous applicant, to this document. It is a document that exceeds 80 pages. I don't know from whom it was meant to have been handed in, I don't know if it is before the Committee, I don't know what its evidential value is, and I don't know what the purpose of it is, with respect Mr Chairperson. A further aspect Mr Chairperson, that perturbs me is why so late in the day, on the second day of the hearing, at three o'clock, this document which is an extensive document, is made available to Counsel? Counsel - it is required of us to study the document, possibly consult with witnesses in regard to the allegations that are made here. I personally feel, this is my personal view, that it is unfair towards Counsel to be given a document of this nature, at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Throughout these proceedings Mr Da Silva, we have been receiving documents, not at a time when those documents should have been received, but fairly late, and that is the circumstance you have to live with. You must just do your best as all of us have been doing in the past, go through this document tonight, consult if necessary and make sure that you are ready tomorrow morning. As I understand this document, it is prepared by - it has been put together by the Investigative Unit of the TRC, is that right? Yes, it has been compiled by the Investigating Unit of the TRC, it is intended to assist whoever who needs assistance from these documents, to go through. MR DA SILVA I am indebted to your explanation Mr Chairman. The only, if I can put it this way, the objection that I have is that a document is made available and with due respect, and it is not that I am pointing fingers at anybody, that is not my intention, but as far as I am concerned, I was the only person sitting here during the tea adjournment, and there is no explanation whatsoever given, from where the document comes from, with respect Mr Chairperson. I will leave the matter there, I understand that we are dealing with this matter in exceptional circumstances. I just thought that I would raise this concern because it is a real concern that I have in the matter, and it is not an intention, and I say this with the utmost respect, of pointing fingers at anybody. It is just that I felt that it is unfair that such a document, of this nature, is made available at such a late stage. But I accept what you have said Mr Chairman, and I don't think it is necessary to take it any further than that. I am indebted to you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, just to satisfy Mr Da Silva, do you know why this document was given to him this late? MR MAPOMA Yes Mr Chairman, this document was prepared by the Investigative Unit together with my predecessor, Adv Prior and he made a suggestion that this document be made available to all the legal representatives and the Committee members, for whatever assistance that they may need through it. MR DA SILVA I am indebted to the explanation Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I think you are perfectly entitled to challenge the contents of this document, and on a perusal, it would appear that it includes documents such as the report of the inquiry into the police's response to the events in Boipatong, this is the Goldstone Commission. I think one should accept that a decision has been made to make this document available, and it is just before us. We will have to do our best to go through the document and if necessary, Counsel will be given time to consult with his or her client if necessary. Again to the extent that the issues that Counsel intends to raise, are relevant to the issues before us, should we give it a number at this stage? Perhaps we should give it a number. It would be marked as Exhibit S. Very well. Mr Berger, did you have anything to say? MR BERGER No Chairperson, it is not necessary. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I have something to say whilst we are talking about documents, I know it is late in the day, but I just want to make sure that we don't end up with the same situation that documents aren't received, or received at a late stage. At a previous hearing, there were certain documents outstanding for Mr Mxoliseni Mkhize and Paulos Mbatha. Those documents I handed over to the Committee, but I see it has not been added to the bundle. That is just the affidavit of these people and further particulars. I just want to make sure that all the relevant parties have copies of this document, otherwise I will have to make further copies and have it available. CHAIRPERSON None of the Committee members as far as I am aware, are in possession of those documents. MR BERGER We were given documents for Mbatha and Mkhize, if that is correct. MR STRYDOM I will just make then sure that further copies are made and made available as soon as possible. CHAIRPERSON We will reconvene tomorrow morning at half past eight. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS