amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-01-21 VEREENIGING 4 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53120&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99011827_vrn_990121ve.htm CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath. MR MAZIBUKO (s.u.o.) MS CAMBANIS Mr Chair and Members of the Committee, may I take the opportunity of apologising. It is correct that I only arrived at 09H10 ...(intervention) INTERPRETER May you please speak louder. MS CAMBANIS ...(inaudible) arrived at 09H10. MR LAX The translator is asking you to speak up, Ms Cambanis. INTERPRETER No, I said she must wait. MR LAX Oh, sorry. CHAIRPERSON MS CAMBANIS Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, I wish to apologise, it's correct that I only arrived at 09H10 this morning and to the extent that my lateness contributed to the delay, I apologise. It was of a personal nature, the cause. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, ...(indistinct) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Mr Buthelezi, you said that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mazibuko. MS TANZER I apologise. Mr Mazibuko, you said that you were not present at the meeting on the 10th of June 1992, were you present at the meeting that took place on the 14th of June 1992, about three days before the attack? MR MAZIBUKO No, I was not present. MS TANZER You also gave evidence that your comrades in Sebokeng shot at you and that is why you came to the hostel. You also feared walking in the township because if they caught you they would burn you. Could you briefly explain what you did to cause wrath to your comrades? MR MAZIBUKO Before I was shot there were people who were alleging that I am an IFP member. After I was shot I knew that those comrades shot me because they had a suspicion that I'm an IFP member. MS TANZER You also stated that you came to the hostel between January to April 1992, can you be a little bit more accurate? I mean there are four months between these dates. MR MAZIBUKO As I've already stated that it is between January and April, I'm suggesting that I don't know which month exactly I went to the hostel. MS TANZER You said as well that you learnt of the pending attack on the 17th of June when you arrived at the stadium, was this because you heard the siren? MR MAZIBUKO When the siren rang I did not go, I went to the stadium when they returned women to their rooms, then I went to the stadium. MS TANZER So in fact when the siren has gone you never actually attended any of the meetings? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MS TANZER So on the night of the 17th when you were aware that you were going to attack Boipatong, that is when you decided to go to the stadium? MR MAZIBUKO I went to the stadium when the women returned to their rooms, then I went to the stadium, then we were informed that we should go and fetch our arms from our rooms. MS TANZER Well who told you to fetch your arms from the rooms? MR MAZIBUKO The person who was instructing us was Mr Mkhize. MS TANZER You said when you arrived at the stadium, Mr Mkhize was talking, can you briefly explain what he was saying to you? MR MAZIBUKO When I arrived at the stadium and sat down it is when I heard that he was informing us that we should go and fetch our arms, then I did that. MS TANZER Did he give anymore details about how you were going to attack Boipatong, or did he just say fetch your arms, we're going to attack? MR MAZIBUKO He just said we're going to Boipatong to attack because we were being killed. He just said we should go and fetch our arms and put our headbands. MS TANZER Can we safely say that you've never actually attended a meeting then at which any of the leaders allegedly spoke and incited the people? CHAIRPERSON Cited the people to do what? MS TANZER I apologise, let me rephrase. And allegedly spoke out at the stadiums related to the complaints of the residents of the hostel. MR MAZIBUKO I never went to the stadium where people were encouraged or there was a discussion about how people were killed. I was always thinking of my parents because my family's house would be burnt or one member of my family would be killed. Those are the things which were in my mind. MS TANZER You were not given a firearm at the stadium, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO May you please repeat your question. MS TANZER You were not given a firearm at the stadium, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MS TANZER The weapons you used, were those your own weapons, the iron bar and the knopkierrie? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, they were mine. MS TANZER Did you intend to kill or assault anyone that night with your weapons? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MS TANZER You stated also that the members or the residents of the hostel were divided into two groups and there were about 2-300 men present, how was such a large amount of people controlled by only two people? MR MAZIBUKO I would be able to say why. When we arrived at a certain spot we were divided into two groups. Immediately we starting shooting. Nobody was in control or was giving instructions, everybody was attacking. MS TANZER As you left the hostel, did you pass under a bridge and come out into a big open field located a few minutes away from the hostel? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MS TANZER Is that where the tree was where you were sitting under and divided into the two groups? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MS TANZER Before you left the stadium did you drink any ndelezi or spray it on your weapons? MR MAZIBUKO I drank ndelezi but I never sprayed my weapons with it. MS TANZER How did you feel after drinking the ndelezi? MR MAZIBUKO I was normal as usual, there was no change in my behaviour or in my thinking. MS TANZER Did it not make you feel brave or strong? MR MAZIBUKO No. MS TANZER When you joined the IFP, did they trust you, coming from Sebokeng? Did they not perhaps think you were an ANC spy? MR MAZIBUKO When I arrived at the hostel there were those who have joined IFP from the township. The person whom they knew is Oupa Semene(?) whom he was known as an IFP members, so there was no allegation or suspicion that I was an ANC spy, they knew already that I was a supporter of the IFP. MS TANZER They embraced you without any suspicion whatsoever? MR MAZIBUKO That is how I observed because I could see that there is no suspicion and there were no questions in that regard. MS TANZER You gave evidence that your group entered Boipatong in the last street, when you were sitting under the tree was it discussed in what direction each group would enter Boipatong or ... MR MAZIBUKO When I was in that spot or in that group I never heard any people giving us a direction, we were just divided into groups then we entered the township. We were not instructed which direction to take. MS TANZER So did you see the other group entering in any other direction? MR MAZIBUKO I would explain in this way. When we were under the tree, when we were divided in two groups, we were sitting down then we stood up and divided ourselves into groups. When we entered Boipatong we used one street. We divided ourselves further down in the street when we started shooting. MS TANZER So it's correct that in fact different groups took different streets? MR MAZIBUKO I don't know as to whether other people used other routes or other directions. MS TANZER Yes, Mr Mazibuko, you gave evidence that when you saw people around your age sitting on the other side of the barricade, well not you exactly but you fired at them, Mkhize fired at them and they ran and you gave chase. How many people of Mkhize's group chased these suspected SDU members? MR MAZIBUKO Immediately we started shooting to the direction of the SDU, they were a group. After we shot at them that is where we dispersed. Others followed those who went into yards, others followed those who were running in the streets. So it is in that point where we took different directions, so nobody can say the group from Mkhize ran to a particular direction and those of the other group ran in a different direction. MS TANZER So in fact, when you gave chase and followed these suspected SDU members, did you not lose sight of the rest of the residents of the hostel who were attacking Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO No, I was always inside of our members of the Madala hostel, those who were attacking because we were all within that vicinity. MS TANZER You gave evidence that when you proceeded back to the hostel after leaving Boipatong, you saw police vehicles coming from Boipatong and moving towards Vanderbijl Park, is it possible that you saw any of these vehicles in the Boipatong location at any time whilst you were attacking it? MR MAZIBUKO If they were within Boipatong during that time we were attacking I could have seen them. MS TANZER Your evidence was in chief that the vehicles were coming from Boipatong to Vanderbijl, those were your words. MR MAZIBUKO When I remember well I said when I started seeing these cars I saw them on the tarred road between the factories and Boipatong. They were moving from this direction to Vanderbijl. MS TANZER Is it possible they could have been coming out of Boipatong, moving towards Vanderbijl? MR MAZIBUKO There were cars which were patrolling within Boipatong and those who were patrolling in the factories. It might be possible that they were coming from the factories or within inside Boipatong. MS TANZER So it is possible? MR MAZIBUKO I would not commit myself in that regard. MS TANZER How many people would you say were there when you proceeded back to the hostel in your group, after giving chase of the SDU members, alleged SDU members? MR MAZIBUKO Those who followed the SDUs, we divided ourselves into two groups. There were those who were running in the streets, there were those who went inside the yards. I would not be able to estimate those who took a particular direction and the opposite direction. I'm not able to estimate. MS TANZER But was it not your evidence that you gave chase, you were chasing the SDU members, the suspected SDU members. Were you not following them as they were running? MR MAZIBUKO Those I was running after, they went into the yards but we did not see where they ended up, we did not see where they ended. We entered into those yards and then we couldn't see them. MS TANZER So approximately how many of your group was left when you proceeded back to Boipatong, sorry the hostel? CHAIRPERSON MS TANZER Approximately how many were there in his group when he proceeded back to the hostel. MR MAZIBUKO I'll put it this way. When we entered Boipatong we dispersed in various directions, when we returned there were those who came back from various streets and other streets. I'm not able to estimate how many were left behind when we were in front, returning to the hostel. MS TANZER So would you say there were like hundreds that were returning at the same time or 100 returning, or were there 10 returning? CHAIRPERSON Well let's put it this way; on your way back to the hostel, how many people were working with you then at that stage, do you know? MR MAZIBUKO I would put it this way Sir. When we returned to the hostel, those who were in front of me were not so many. There were those who were still behind, there were those who were in front. It is difficult to estimate how many there were in front of me and those who were behind me. MS TANZER So what made you decide to proceed back to the hostel? What led to that decision not to continue attacking and to return? MR MAZIBUKO When we were inside Boipatong whilst we were still attacking, people shouted that we should get out and return. I would not say what is the particular reason which made us to return. I heard voices shouting that we should return, then we got out of Boipatong. MS TANZER When you arrived back at the hostel, would you say you were one of the first in the group or were you one of the last of the group that returned? MR MAZIBUKO I was in the middle. There were those who were in front of me, there were those who arrived first and we arrived later and the other group arrived after us. MS TANZER Mr Chairman, my question; how many people actually were with him when he was crossing the street is relevant because at least to my next question which I want to ask which is basically, when they were crossing the street they said they saw the suitcases and they weren't noticed. So if they were about a few hundred men or a hundred men running, they should be noticed. And my question was: how many people were you crossing that street? CHAIRPERSON I think if you listen to his, to the import of his evidence, it amounts to this; there were people who were ahead of him, there were people who were behind him. He is not in a position to estimate how many people were there, either in front of him or behind him. I think it is common sense that there must have been a fairly large group of people who were returning. MS TANZER Did you make your way to Slovo Park on your way back to the hostel? MR MAZIBUKO When we returned to Madala Hostel, yes I arrived, I entered Slovo Park. The first street or the second street we went out of it outside Slovo Park or the other township. MS TANZER Did you attack anyone in Slovo Park? MR MAZIBUKO Where I attacked in Slovo Park there were shack houses and there were houses ...(indistinct). That is, I never entered in the informal settlement area but I attacked the houses next to the informal settlement. MS TANZER Why did you not mention in your evidence-in-chief when you were led the evidence-in-chief, that Mabote started shooting at the suitcases when he saw the suitcases? MR MAZIBUKO I was never asked. MS TANZER Did they return the fire? MR MAZIBUKO No, they never shot. MS TANZER Do you know of any reason why he would shoot if you were not noticed and he knew you were not noticed? MR MAZIBUKO Are you asking if I should know the reason why he shot? MS TANZER Yes. MR MAZIBUKO I don't know the reason why he shot at them. MS TANZER When you were living at the kwaMadala hostel, were you employed? MR MAZIBUKO No, I was unemployed. MS TANZER How did you manage to maintain yourself at the hostel? MR MAZIBUKO The room in which I was staying, I was staying in two rooms. I was staying with Nana Tshabango. He was taking care of me, he was supporting me or maintaining me. MS TANZER You gave evidence that you know Vic Keswa was not a member of his hit squad and had nothing to do with it. Did you have any relationship with him? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, he was my friend. MS TANZER Whilst you were at the hostel, were you aware of the existence of a police officer known to you as Peens? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not know him. MS TANZER Were you aware of the existence of a police officer known as Shaka? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not know him. MS TANZER Did you know of a police officer or a member of the police force known as Rooikop? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not know him. MS TANZER Were you aware of the complaints of the residents prior to the attack? MR MAZIBUKO I was one of those who was complaining that I was not able to go to the township to my friends and my family because we'd be kidnapped. You would be afraid even to go to the robots. You can only get out of the hostel if there is a car which goes out. MS TANZER So why did you not attend the meetings to voice your complaints? MR MAZIBUKO I'd repeat this answer for a second time. I was not interested in attending meetings because I was already concentrating on the welfare of my family because at any time I would get a message that my family has been attacked. MS TANZER So who would you voice your complaints to about the insecurity of yourself and your family? MR MAZIBUKO There were people who came from where I came from, then they would be able to give me the state of affairs of my family or the state of security of my family, then they would tell me that they are still safe. MS TANZER You gave evidence that you know Andries Matanzima Nosenga and that he only joined the hostel after the attack, am I correct that Nosenga on your version, did not take part in the attack and that he is lying? CHAIRPERSON MS TANZER As I understood it Mr Chairman, as I understood all the applicants, they were saying that Nosenga they understood joined the hostel after the attack. CHAIRPERSON They became aware of his existence after the attack. MS TANZER So may I just put it to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just hold it, let's just make sure that all our notes say that. My note says; I know Matanzima Nosenga from kwaMadala Hostel. I did not know his role. I saw him after the attack. I started to know Matanzima a week after the attack. MS TANZER Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question anyway but, I'll rephrase the question. Did you know of Mr Nosenga's existence at the hostel prior to the attack? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not know that he was an occupant of the hostel before the attack. MS TANZER It is possible that he was a resident at the hostel then prior to the attack? MR MAZIBUKO Let me explain it this way. Anybody who came from the township, particularly Sebokeng and Everton, if he was staying within the hostel I would have known him. MS TANZER So do you doubt whether he was at the hostel prior to the attack? MR MAZIBUKO Before the attack Matanzima was never a hostel dweller, before the attack. I could have known if he was in the hostel and coming from Sebokeng or Everton. MS TANZER So you deny that he was a resident at the hostel at the time of the attack? MR MAZIBUKO Exactly. MS TANZER I put it to you that in fact Mr Nosenga joined the hostel before you did, in 1991. MR MAZIBUKO I dispute that. MS TANZER Do you dispute that Mr Nosenga in fact took part in the attack on Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MS TANZER What motive could one possibly impugn on Mr Nosenga in saying that he took part in the attack if he did not? MR MAZIBUKO I'd put his motivation in this way. There are people who are, when they are before whites and they are interrogated, they say things which are not in existence. Maybe he was scared when whites were interrogating him, then he stated things that he did not know, that he was present during the attack whilst he was not. MS TANZER Mr Nosenga is able to give details about meetings and the attack far better than you can, how do you explain that? MR MAZIBUKO That is his version and he knows that he's saying things which he did not know, that there were police in the midst of the hostel dwellers. I hope that the Committee would call those police, then they would say that there were no police, they would say that there were no police within our midst. The version that he gives is not the true version and I don't align myself with what he is saying. MS TANZER Well I put it to you that Mr Nosenga did take part in the attack, that he's going to give evidence that he attended the meetings on the 10th of June and the 14th of June and that the police did collude with the IFP and hostel leaders to attack the residents of Boipatong and in fact they rendered assistance in this regard by supplying weapons, caspirs and manpower. What is your comment? MR MAZIBUKO He would come here and testify? He would come here and testify? I think he will be tested if he did or he did not. If he did that, it will be proven that he did that. If he did not, he'd be proven that he did not. MS TANZER Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence, and I put it to you that the members of the police met you in the field where you were sitting and they accompanied you to Boipatong. In fact some of the residents of the hostel climbed into the Caspirs while others walked with the Caspirs. What is your comment? MR MAZIBUKO I would put it this way. To respect you, I would not, I'm not going to dispute what you're going to say because I respect you. He would come here. I'm not going to contest what you are saying to me, but I'm saying he was not present in the hostel, he did not take part in the attack. That is the end of my comment to what you are saying to me. MS TANZER You are directing your comments to the comments of Mr Nosenga and not myself. MR MAZIBUKO I'm saying that because you are saying to me, you are telling me that Nosenga is going to testify that there were police and they were doing those things, but because I respect you I am not going to contest with you because he is your client, I'm not going to comment. MS TANZER I'm indebted to you. Did you notice any men wearing balaclavas on their faces during the attack on Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO No-one put on the balaclavas. I did not see anyone. MS TANZER Mr Nosenga states under oath that under orders he killed people. You state under oath that you killed no-one and only damaged property and did not see anyone kill that night. If all you applicants are so innocent, why are there so many bodies? CHAIRPERSON We have not heard all the applicants. MS TANZER I apologise, Mr Chairman. The evidence so far is that ... CHAIRPERSON I think you should direct your questions to him. MS TANZER The evidence we've heard so far is that either somebody was not present at the attack or that they shot in the air and are not sure if they killed anyone. You say that you didn't kill anyone or assault anyone and yet there are so many bodies found dead the next morning. Do you still hold that Mr Nosenga is lying? MR MAZIBUKO Let me put it this way. What Nosenga is saying he will come and state it here in front of the Committee and everybody, then he would state before this Committee that he killed so many people and as to whether they females or males or children. MS TANZER When he gives such evidence, will you believe him? MR MAZIBUKO I would just sit down, keep quiet and listen to him because I don't have power to stand up and ask him questions. I would just sit down, be quiet and listen to what he is saying. MS TANZER Mr Nosenga is also going to give evidence that upon returning to the hostel after the attack, celebrations took place, more ndelezi was drank as you were praised and chanted. Did you join in these celebrations? MR MAZIBUKO If I remember well, the following after the attack there were police who came and the alarm was rung. At the stadium, yes we drank ndelezi, anyone who wanted to, we were not forced. If you had a belief that ndelezi has something to do for you, and because many people who were present at the stadium came from Natal, and they used to drink it, so they did drink it at the stadium. MS TANZER Was ndelezi not drank that night after the attack, not the next night, the very night of the attack? MR MAZIBUKO I started drinking ndelezi for the first time at the stadium on the 17th before we went to Boipatong. That was for the first time I drank ndelezi. When I returned I did not go to the stadium so I did not know as to whether it was put in front of people and other people drank that, I don't know that. MS TANZER So you cannot dispute that it did happen, there was celebrations straight after? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I would say that. MS TANZER Where did you hide your weapons, the knopkierrie and the iron bar? MR MAZIBUKO In my room. When I entered in my room I was sleeping on the bed in the corner. On top on the roof there were planks and I threw them on top of those planks. MS TANZER Yes, Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that the weapons were hidden in the ceiling. MR MAZIBUKO All those rooms in Madala hostel don't have ceilings. If you are inside and you look above you see the roof. There is no ceiling. You cannot even touch the roof. Even if you can climb on top of the bed you cannot touch the roof because it's too high. MS TANZER Well where did you hide your weapons? MR MAZIBUKO I threw them on top of the scaffold. You'd find these wooden wall beds and mattresses and then on top you'd find the scaffolds on top, then I just threw my weapons on the scaffold. MS TANZER Were all the weapons hidden there, the AK47s, the pump guns that you mentioned? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mazibuko, do you know whether the other weapons were hidden? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not know. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER Did you attend that annual rally in Ulundi in July, about a month after the attack? MR MAZIBUKO I have never been to Ulundi. MS TANZER Are you aware, or were you aware of any relationship that existed between Victor Keswa and members of the police force? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not know. MS TANZER Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence, and in fact he was a member of Mr Keswa's hit squad, that in fact Mr Keswa had dealings with police in the vicinity and that these policemen did supply weapons to Mr Keswa, what your comments, being a friend of his ...(indistinct)? MR MAZIBUKO There is nothing like that. I do not believe in that. I don't remember meeting police or I don't remember seeing him with the police. We were surprised that he was detained at all times. The police would come and detain him at night. As to what he was arrested for we did not know but he was detained regularly. MS TANZER But being a friend of Mr Keswa, did you not know of any perhaps personal dealings, that perhaps when he was taken at night there was not detainment but maybe a relationship or other sorts? MR MAZIBUKO Let me put it this way. Since I became his friend I don't remember Victor Keswa having a friendship with a policeman. MS TANZER I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mazibuko, is it correct that you shared a room with Mr Nana Tshabango? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And you were friendly with Mr Nana Tshabango? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And you were friendly with Mr Victor Keswa? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And Mr Victor Keswa was friendly with Mr Nana Tshabango? MR MAZIBUKO I would not say he was a friend or had a relationship with Nana Tshabango because I have never seen them together since I arrived at that hostel. Victor Keswa was staying in his room and Nana Tshabango was staying in his room. I never saw them in the company to one another. MR BERGER You were present when a photograph was handed in by your counsel at these hearings, where there was some graffiti on the wall against or calling for the heads, and I use that not literally, of Victor Keswa and Nana Tshabango, do you remember that photograph? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do remember. MR BERGER So I'll ask you again, isn't it correct that Nana Tshabango and Victor Keswa were associates? MR MAZIBUKO I never saw them. Let me explain it this way. Nana Tshabango came from Tshirela(?). Victor Keswa came from Sebokeng. Nan Tshabango according to Tshirela's people, was a bad person who was a murderer, who shooting people, who was assaulting people. And Getisi, it was alleged that he was a killer and assaulting people. So people came to that kind of conclusion, the people within the community said they wanted Getisi and Nana. There were those when I was with Nana Tshabango in a car going to town. We would give them a lift then we'd ask them; do you know Nana Tshabango? Those people from the township would say; I don't know, we don't know him. Then they would say; did you hear about him, they said yes. Then they would say we are looking for him. MR BERGER Is it correct that Mr Nana Tshabango was a policeman? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER When you were at the stadium on the night of the 17th of June 1992, what were your instructions just before you left the hostel? MR MAZIBUKO Do you mean the instructions which we were given? MR BERGER Yes. MR MAZIBUKO When we were at the stadium they informed us we should go to Boipatong and kill members of the Self Defence Unit in Boipatong. MR BERGER Who said that? MR MAZIBUKO That is Mkhize. MR BERGER Did he say anything else? MR MAZIBUKO I don't remember if he said anything else. MR BERGER Did anyone say anything else? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR BERGER Who? MR MAZIBUKO That is Damarra Chonco. MR BERGER And what did he say? MR MAZIBUKO ...(indistinct) here are the guns, whoever wants to take a gun let him take it. Then people went to fetch those guns. MR BERGER Where were the guns? MR MAZIBUKO They were on the ground inside the stadium. MR BERGER And did you grab a gun? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not. MR BERGER Why not? MR MAZIBUKO At that time I did not have a long ...(indistinct) in the hostel. I was not brave enough to go and fetch a gun. MR BERGER What sort of guns were there on the ground? MR MAZIBUKO AK47s. MR BERGER Any other guns? MR MAZIBUKO I saw AK47s. MR BERGER How many? MR MAZIBUKO There were a number. I cannot be able to count how many because they were not put in line, they were just dropped. So I would not be able to count how many there were. MR BERGER Approximately? MR MAZIBUKO I think there would be plus-minus 10. MR BERGER And only AK47s? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR BERGER And the reason that you didn't go and grab one, you could have but you didn't because you hadn't been in the hostel a long time and you weren't feeling brave enough, is that your answer? MR MAZIBUKO Let me explain it this way. According to my mind, when they said here are guns, whoever must go and fetch, even if I would go nearer to the guns, the way people ran to fetch those guns I couldn't have found one on the ground because we were many and many people were rushing to fetch one. MR BERGER Well then I don't understand your answer that you hadn't been in the hostel long enough and you weren't feeling brave enough to take a gun, if your answer now is that you didn't have time to get a gun because everyone rushed for it. ADV STRYDOM Mr Chairperson, his answer was: "Even if I wanted to I wouldn't have been able to because of the rush." He qualified his answer. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mazibuko, what counsel wants to find out from you is why didn't you fetch the AK47, you were told there they are and by your own estimate there were about 10 at least. Why didn't you fetch one? MR MAZIBUKO Inside the hostel I was not free enough to talk to any other person who was a hostel dweller whom I'm not used to, so the reason why I did not go to grab a gun, I did not have the freedom or the free will. I was a little bit conscious. I was conscious. I looked to the people around first but then I said maybe they should be the first who should go and fetch a gun before I do. MR BERGER So who took the guns, the AK47s? MR MAZIBUKO The one I remember is Sipho Lukozi. MR BERGER Yes, continue. MR MAZIBUKO That is Mkhize, that is Damarra Chonco and other men whom I did not know. I don't know their names but I can identify them if I see them. MR BERGER Have you seen them? Were any of them accused with you in the criminal trial? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, they were present but they were acquitted. MR BERGER And throughout the trial you never got to know their names. MR MAZIBUKO I would not be able to state their names but I know their identity. We were 17 when we were accused, so we were many. So I can identify them but I don't know their names. CHAIRPERSON How many of you were accused? This big trial in other words. MR MAZIBUKO I think we were 76 or 79. CHAIRPERSON Now the 17 that you're talking about, what about those persons? MR MAZIBUKO The 17 are the ones which were convicted or found guilty. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. So besides the three people whom you've mentioned, none of your co-applicants for amnesty took an AK47, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO You mean - I remember Mkhize. I did not see others as to whether - if there was one among them who grabbed a gun, I would say that but I did not see them. I did not see one of the taking a gun. MR BERGER No, no, you said - you mentioned the three and the others, approximately 7 guns were taken by people who were acquitted, isn't that what you said? CHAIRPERSON I don't remember him saying that. All he said was that the other persons who took the guns are person who he did not know but whom he can identify. Unless you're making the assumption that there it must follow that if there were 10 guns, and we don't know whether there were 10 guns, they must have been taken by those who were acquitted. MR BERGER Chairperson, I'm sure I heard the witness say that people who took the other guns were acquitted. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay. Mr Mazibuko, you said that the other guns were taken by the person who were acquitted. MR MAZIBUKO No, I said - Mr Berger asked me as to whether among those who took the guns were they accused in this case and I said yes, but they were acquitted. MR BERGER So it follows from what you've said, I ask you, that none of your co-applicants other than Mr Mkhize and Mr Lukozi, if one counts him as a co-applicant, none of the others took AK47's, am I right? MR BERGER Yes, that is correct because I've added by saying, if one of them or some of the grabbed guns I would state their names, I would identify them that they did but they did not. CHAIRPERSON Well isn't the appropriate answer that you did not see anyone of the other applicants, except for those that you've mentioned, take the AK47s? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And is it correct that your answer went even further than that and that is that if any of your co-applicants other than Mr Lukozi or Mr Mkhize had taken an AK47, you would have seen that and you would have disclosed his name now? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I said among the applicants, if one of them did grab a gun I would identify them and say he grabbed a gun. Among the people who grabbed guns I saw Lukozi and Mkhize. I was able to identify Lukozi, Mkhize and Damarra. I was not able to see others because there was confusion. MR BERGER So when Mr Chonco said here are the guns, take them, he actually went and took a gun himself? ADV SIGODI Sorry, Mr Berger, just to get clarity here. We have two Mkhize's, applicants here, which one of the Mkhizes are you referring to? MR MAZIBUKO I refer to Xambelele Mkhize, the one testified the day before yesterday. It's Beki Nkosi Mkhize. ADV SIGODI And Sipho Lukozi, is he the same as Thomas Lukozi? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI Thank you. MR BERGER Thank you, Advocate Sigodi. My question, Mr Mazibuko, is Mr Damarra Chonco said there are the guns, take them and then he and Mr Mkhize both went and took guns for themselves, is that what happened? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. Damarra Chonco said here are the guns guys and he also grabbed one. MR BERGER And what happened after that? MR MAZIBUKO And all the people were rushing to grab guns. From there we were given ndelezi. So you will start by drinking ndelezi and then you'll move on and somebody will spread ndelezi on you and then from there we departed to Boipatong. MR BERGER So when did you go and fetch your weapons from your room? MR MAZIBUKO When I left my room I was not armed. Let me explain it this way. The alarm was rung and everybody went to the stadium. When the women were instructed to go back they were told that only men are wanted at the stadium. So when I arrived at the stadium we were given an instruction by Mr Mkhize that we should go and fetch our weapons and that is when I went back to my room to fetch my weapons. MR BERGER And when you came back that was when Mr Mkhize said, this is now after fetching your weapon, you came back and then Mr Damarra Chonco said here are the guns, take some guns? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER So when Mr Chonco said here are guns, you already had a spear and a kierrie, a spear in one hand and a kierrie in the other? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you have an iron bar or a spear? MR MAZIBUKO It was an iron bar. MR BERGER I beg your pardon. For the purpose of my question it doesn't make a difference but for accuracy I apologise. You had an iron bar in one hand and a kierrie in the other, at the time when Mr Chonco said take a weapon, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct, I had my knopkierrie and an iron bar in my hands. MR BERGER So the reason you didn't take a weapon was because you already had a weapon, in fact you had two weapons in your hands, isn't that right? MR MAZIBUKO No, that is not correct. I said that the reason why I did not take the weapon is because I was not brave enough to grab one. Even if I wanted to take a weapon, because of that confusion and many people went to rush to grab guns, I wouldn't have been able to grab one myself. MR BERGER Where did those weapons come from, the weapons that were available for distribution? MR MAZIBUKO Those weapons were arranged by Damarra Chonco. MR BERGER Where did he get them? MR MAZIBUKO Well I don't know where he got the guns. MR BERGER How do you know that he brought them to the hostel? MR MAZIBUKO Let me explain it this way. When I entered the stadium, I said that Mr Mkhize was already giving his speech, then Damarra Chonco opened the boot of his car and he took out the weapons and he put them there on the ground. MR BERGER So his car was in the stadium. MR MAZIBUKO No, it was not in the stadium, it was beside the stadium under the tree. It was unable to enter the stadium, it was under the tree. MR BERGER But you were already in the stadium, you went into the stadium. MR MAZIBUKO Yes, by the time he went to fetch the weapons in his car I was already in the stadium. MR BERGER And so you were in the stadium and he left the stadium, he went outside and he carried about 10 AK47s from his car into the stadium, is that what happened? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER How do you know he got them from his car? MR MAZIBUKO I'll explain it this way. Where I was standing in the stadium I was standing above the stands, I was able to see outside the stadium. I was able to see his car outside the stadium. MR BERGER Was that a blue Nissan Skyline? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER You're certain that you didn't go to the stadium when the alarm rang, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER In your statement at page 117, about a third of the way down you say the following "The alarm went off. We went to the stadium." Is that a mistake? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I would say that is a mistake. MR BERGER At the criminal trial evidence was given by Theresa Mofokeng, do you know her? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I know her well. MR BERGER How do you know her? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, she stayed with us in the same room because she was Nana's girlfriend. MR BERGER And she gave evidence that after the siren rang you went to the stadium. You came back after that to fetch your weapon and a "lappie" to put around your head. Is she not telling the truth? MR MAZIBUKO When she says I went to the stadium, after this I ...(indistinct), she's not telling the truth. I only went to the stadium when the women returned from the stadium, because she told us that we were instructed to go back, only the men should go to the stadium. Then I realised that this is a serious matter and I decided to go to the stadium. MR BERGER But she never gave evidence to that effect, did she? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct, she never gave that evidence. MR BERGER Can you think of any reason why Theresa Mofokeng should give false evidence against you? MR MAZIBUKO Well I don't know whether there is a reason why she said that because even in Court the State witnesses were contradicting each other. Some of them said I had a knopkierrie and some of them said I had an axe, so I can't say why she decided to give that evidence. MR BERGER There's something I don't understand, Mr Mazibuko. You and a number of your co-applicants have given evidence that your instructions when you left kwaMadala were that you were going to Boipatong to kill the members of the SDUs. And you've all been, not all of you because Mr Victor Mthembu gave a different story, but a number of you have been very careful to make the point that you were only going to attack the SDUs, correct? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct, we were going to attack the members of the SDU. MR BERGER Because not everyone in Boipatong was a target, in fact the vast majority of the residents of Boipatong were not targets, would you agree? MR MAZIBUKO I'll put it this way. For myself people who were the targets were the SDU members. If I had managed to come across one of the members of the SDU I would make sure that I would kill him. MR BERGER It was not only in your mind, those were your instructions, instructions given to you and all the attackers, by Mr Mkhize, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct, that we were going to attack the SDUs. MR BERGER And when you got to Boipatong and you had that altercation with what you believed was a Self Defence Unit, do you remember you saw some people, you fired at them and they ran away? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct, I remember. MR BERGER And according to your statement they never fired back, correct? MR MAZIBUKO I cannot say that they did not fire back because there were a few shots that I heard, so I cannot exactly say that they shot back or not. MR BERGER No, no, have a look at page 117 at the bottom, you said "When we got to Boipatong we came across a group of Self Defence Units." Third last line on that page you say: "They were shot at." In other words your group shot at them. "They ran away. The people ..." ... meaning the attackers. "... followed them and began to break windows." Now if they had shot back at you you would have said so, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER Now what happened in that split second that changed, according to you, this attack on Self Defence Units into an attack on the entire township of Boipatong? That is what I don't understand. MR MAZIBUKO Those people who ran into the yards are the people who caused that other people should also be attacked, because I said we ran after them, so we could not find them because they ran into houses. So those people who entered the houses maybe decided that we should search for them into the houses. That is where now they saw children and women and they decided to attack them. MR BERGER But not one of you could have believed that young children, old people, pregnant women, not one of you could have believed that they were members of Self Defence Units. So what was it that turned this, on your version, disciplined group of attackers into madmen, killing and destroying everything in your wake, what was it? MR MAZIBUKO I will put it this way. A person who had a spear or a gun and who shot at a woman, I cannot say why he did that because all of us we knew that we are going to attack the SDU members, because a woman will never kidnap me in town and burn me. So anybody who attacked a woman with a spear, I don't know what he was thinking. It was his own decision. MR BERGER So according to you the only legitimate targets were the young men of the township? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER And yet of the deceased and the injured, the young men form a minority. The vast majority of people killed and injured were women, children and old people. You can't explain that can you? MR MAZIBUKO Unfortunately I cannot explain because when I hear that the majority of the people who were attacked were women, old people and children I was hurt because I could not understand why this happened. I was really touched by that. When I was still living in the township I was never ever harassed by women and children. MR BERGER Well I'm glad, Mr Mazibuko, that you don't use the excuse of the ndelezi to justify the massacres. That is so, am I right, you don't use the ndelezi as an excuse for justifying the killing of women and children and old people? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER And I'm going to suggest to you that there is no explanation for that apparent change of plan from attacking SDUs to attacking the entire township, and that the real reason that the entire township was targeted and attacked is because those were the orders that you were given before you left kwaMadala, that you were going to attack Boipatong to destroy the entire township, isn't that right? MR MAZIBUKO No, that is not correct. MR BERGER If the SDUs were your targets, why were you destroying property, why were you breaking windows? MR MAZIBUKO I will explain it this way. When we started breaking the windows it is because we could not see the members of the SDU. They ran into the houses, so we wanted to enter into these houses so that we can search for them. If I had seen maybe one boy jumping out of the window I wouldn't have left him, I would make sure that he is dead. MR BERGER I'm sure you did make sure that a number of people were dead, didn't you? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER How many people did you make sure were dead? MR MAZIBUKO I'm sorry, I did not understand the question. Well I did not understand the question, I'm sorry about that. MR BERGER Well what did you think the question was, Mr Mazibuko? MR MAZIBUKO I thought that the question says whether I'm sure that many people died. That is why I said the answer "yes" because I know exactly that many people died that day. MR BERGER Your response to me was "If I had a seen a boy jumping out of a window I would have made sure that he was dead." I said to you: "I am sure you did make sure that people were dead." And you said: "Yes." You say you misunderstood that question? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I repeat that. I ask you to forgive me, I did not understand the question. MR BERGER Isn't Mr Victor Mthembu correct when he says, and I asked him "Why were young babies killed?" And he said: "Because a snake gives birth to another snake." Wasn't he right? MR MAZIBUKO Well he was not correct, that is my feeling. Because he put it in Zulu, maybe it has a different meaning but according to me when you are a pastor you cannot give birth to a pastor, you can give birth to a criminal. When he says that maybe that is how he understood it or maybe that is what he knows, that a snake gives birth to a snake. MR BERGER Mr Mazibuko, you understand the import of that phrase. Mr Victor Mthembu was saying the children were killed because they were children of parents living in Boipatong with whom he had a fight. MR MAZIBUKO Well I don't know why he said so, he is the only person who knows why he said "A snake gives birth to a snake." If I had come across a woman or a child I would not have attacked her because I knew well who was my target. MR BERGER And isn't Mr Mthembu correct when he says that women were killed and old people were killed simply because they were sleeping in Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO Well I cannot say why he said so. MR BERGER You also went into Slovo Park you say, right? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER And you know that many many people were injured and killed in Slovo Park and there was great destruction in Slovo Park. Are you not responsible for any of that? MR MAZIBUKO To tell the truth, I did not enter Slovo Park, I was only moving along the street that separates the township and Slovo Park. I was busy breaking the windows of the houses next to Slovo Park, I did not enter Slovo Park. MR BERGER Why not? MR MAZIBUKO I don't have any reason why I did not enter Slovo Park, it just happened. MR BERGER You were with Mr Beki Mkhize and he said that his group went into Slovo Park. MR MAZIBUKO Let me explain it this way. Even if we were a group, there were people who were attacking on the other side and there were those who were attacking on the other side, maybe he entered Slovo Park with other people but I did not enter, I was busy on the other side of the street. MR BERGER Did you see anybody shooting or stabbing anyone? MR MAZIBUKO If I remember well I saw a certain man stabbing somebody with a spear. MR BERGER Who, who was stabbing? MR MAZIBUKO It's Mr Msizi. MR BERGER Where is he today? MR MAZIBUKO Well I don't know where he is because I was arrested last year in January. The last time I saw him he was staying at KwaMadala Hostel. MR BERGER What was his first name? MR MAZIBUKO I don't know his other name, I only know his surname, that is Msizi. MR BERGER Do you know what room he was staying in? MR MAZIBUKO Well I don't know his room. MR BERGER And who was he stabbing? MR MAZIBUKO He stabbed a man who was trying to jump the fence. MR BERGER Where? MR MAZIBUKO I don't remember the name of the street but it was in Boipatong. MR BERGER And did you see anyone shooting? MR MAZIBUKO The only person that I remember, seeing him shooting, it was Mr Mkhize but I heard many shots but I could not see who was shooting but I could hear the gunshots. MR BERGER You were asked a question at page 112 "Did you see any person firing with firearms during this attack?" And your answer at page 115 was: "I saw a person in our group with the name "Doctor", who fired a shot in the direction of a person." Two questions: 1) you didn't mention "Doctor" now. 2) you don't mention Mkhize in your answer", why is that? MR MAZIBUKO I was asked this question yesterday and I said that I saw Doctor shooting. I even said that he had a pump action gun. MR BERGER Well why didn't you say that now when I asked you? I think your counsel is showing you something. MR MAZIBUKO He's showing me that I said that. He was indicating to me. MR BERGER Where is that, what page are you looking at? MR MAZIBUKO That is page 113 and the answer on page 115, and now he's showing me something on page 118. MR BERGER Oh I see, he's showing you at the top of page 118. MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER "Doctor was firing with a shotgun, a pump action shotgun." MR MAZIBUKO I say it is not a shotgun, it's a big gun. MR BERGER Oh a short gun? MR MAZIBUKO It's a big gun. MR BERGER Oh, sorry. MR MAZIBUKO No, I was referring to a pump gun. MR BERGER And Mkhize was firing an AK47? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER And you didn't see anybody get killed as a result? MR MAZIBUKO Well I did not recognise anybody dying. When Doctor was shooting, he was pointing at somebody. It seemed as if that person was drunk but I could not see whether he fell, so I was unable to see if he was dead or not but he was drunk. MR BERGER You spent about an hour and a half in the township, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO Well I do not want to commit myself as to how long we stayed in Boipatong. MR BERGER It was a long time, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER And during that time you moved around the township, up and down on a number of streets, am I correct? MR MAZIBUKO We were busy working in the township, we were doing many things. MR BERGER Yes. And at no stage in that long time, moving all around the township did you see a single person injured or deceased? MR MAZIBUKO I saw many people being beaten but I cannot say whether they died or not. Many people were attacked, others were trying to jump the fences, others were trying to fight back, others were falling, but I cannot say whether they died. MR BERGER None of them were lying on the ground? MR MAZIBUKO The one who was attacked by Msizi with a spear, he fell but I could not say whether he was dead or not. The only thing that I saw, I saw him stabbing the person and I moved on. MR BERGER Why didn't you go and make sure that this man was dead? MR MAZIBUKO Well I cannot tell you, I can't really say why I didn't go and make sure that he was dead, because I was also busy with my job of breaking the windows. MR BERGER Chairperson, I've gone past eleven. CHAIRPERSON Yes, shall we adjourn until 11H30. We'll take an adjournment until 11H30. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath. MR MAZIBUKO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Berger? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (Continued) Thank you, Chairperson. MR STRYDOM Sorry to interrupt, Chairperson. One of the applicants, Mr Vincent Kanjele, he already testified and he wants to be excused for two hours to go for a work interview which he can only do now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he may be excused, yes. MR STRYDOM Thank you, Chairperson. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mazibuko, you persist with the denial that all the residents of Boipatong were targets of the attack, and as a result there is something that I still don't understand. You confirmed pages 110 and 111 where you set out the political objective that was sought to be achieved by the attack on Boipatong. And in paragraph 10(a), I want to read to you the first sentence and I'' translate from the Afrikaans, it says: "The political objective which we wanted to achieve with the attack on Boipatong was to teach the predominantly ANC dominated and controlled Boipatong a lesson and more particularly to neutralise the Self Defence Units of the ANC." Now put simply what that means is that your political objective was to neutralise the Self Defence Units, kill the Self Defence Units and teach the people of Boipatong a lesson. Now what lesson did you intend to teach the people of Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO Self Defence Units were killing us, they were burning us, we were being burnt alive, we were being stabbed. So in killing them they would know that if they kill one person they would also be killed. If they had stopped killing us we wouldn't have attacked them, that wouldn't have happened in Boipatong. MR BERGER Let's just get the facts ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Just before we get those facts, do you confirm that you said that you were going to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I agree but by saying that I do not include the children and the women. I was not referring to the parents. CHAIRPERSON Well how were you going to do that, were you going to do that by attacking the SDUs? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, we were going to attack the SDU members. CHAIRPERSON I suppose the - you are said to be saying in your statement you were going to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson and then you single out the SDUs. Now what I want to find out is we know that you are going to kill the SDUs because you've told us they were the ones who were responsible for attacking the hostel residents. Now how were the residents of Boipatong going to be taught a lesson? MR MAZIBUKO The residents of Boipatong would also know, more especially the parents, they would know that members of the SDU are the people who are killing the hostel dwellers because they will come with a kidnapped person and burn him alive. So they would know that when the SDU members have kidnapped an IFP member then the IFP will also revenge by killing somebody that they come across. CHAIRPERSON And the somebody that they will be coming across, would that include women and children? MR MAZIBUKO No, that would included children and women, only the SDUs. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, continue. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. The only people that you intended to kill were SDU members and you've told the Committee that by that you understand young men in the township, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct, I was referring to young men who were residents in the township. MR BERGER But what you say and what all of your co-applicants besides Mr Victor Mthembu say in this document which has been annexed to each and every one of your applications, is that specifically you wanted to neutralise the Self Defence Units, the young men but you also wanted to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson. So your teaching of a lesson went beyond the killing of SDU members. My question to you is, how were you going to teach the residents a lesson, what were you going to do to teach the residents a lesson? Do you understand my question? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. MR BERGER Please answer it. MR MAZIBUKO The residents of Boipatong would learn that when they see the members of the SDU kidnapping and burning one of the IFP members, they should reprimand, they should reprimand them. Although I know that they would not listen to their parents, but to a certain extent parents would be able to reprimand the members of the SDU. MR BERGER So that what would happen? The parents would reprimand the SDU members because the parents feared that something would happen, what is it that the parents would fear which would make them reprimand the SDU members? MR MAZIBUKO They would fear that maybe people would be killed, innocent people would be killed. MR BERGER Precisely. That is exactly the lesson you wanted to teach the residents of Boipatong, that if they did not keep the SDU members in check, if they did not reprimand them then innocent people would be killed. We agree, am I right, Mr Mazibuko? MR MAZIBUKO I was not specifically saying innocent people would be killed but they would know, that if one IFP member is killed they would know that the same thing that happen to Boipatong will happen again and people will lose their properties as it has happened. CHAIRPERSON Well let me put it to you this way, the suggestion is this that the manner in which the people of Boipatong were to be taught a lesson was to attack them and kill them so that in future they know that if they don't control the SDUs, they will again be attacked. Do you understand that? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON And what do you say to that? MR MAZIBUKO I agree with what you have already said but I also emphasise the fact that we are not specifically going to kill women or the parents. I don't want to say that the parents would be killed simply because SDU members were killing the members of the IFP. MR SIBANYONI Can I rephrase the question? What actions were going to be taken against the resident to teach them a lesson? MR MAZIBUKO We'd hurt them by kidnapping members of their families, specifically the youth. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON The innocent persons that you are talking about, would those be male persons who are not necessarily members of the SDUs? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that will be men who are not necessarily members of the SDU, although some of them are members of the SDU. CHAIRPERSON So are we to understand that this lesson would lie in that men who are not necessarily members of the SDUs, would be attacked and killed and from that killing and attack, the residents of Boipatong in general would learn a lesson, that in future they've got to keep the SDUs in check? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And would this have included elderly men? MR MAZIBUKO No, that would not include old men. I'm referring to men who are still able to work for themselves, not old men. CHAIRPERSON Well because - it was at night, was it not? MR MAZIBUKO May you repeat the question please? CHAIRPERSON It was at night when this attack was launched? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, it was at night. CHAIRPERSON How was it going to be possible to identify who of the men can still work for themselves so as in order to identify those who had to be attacked? MR MAZIBUKO I think an old man - it's easy to recognise an old man, it is easy to make a difference between a man who can work for himself and an old man. I can recognise the difference between a man and an old man. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Mr Mazibuko, how had you, and when I say you I mean you in the plural, being intimidated by the residents of Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO To tell the truth, residents of Boipatong, I was never told that the people of Boipatong were intimidating us, I never heard of that. My problem is with the ANC. I never had a problem with the people of Boipatong. What resulted in Boipatong being attacked, it is because most of the members of the ANC were residing in Boipatong and so we thought that if we attack the members of the ANC who was staying in Boipatong as the nearest place, that would reach other members of the ANC in other townships. MR BERGER So you recognised, you all recognised that in attacking Boipatong and killing people in Boipatong you would kill people who were not ANC members but in the main you get ANC members, is that right? MR MAZIBUKO When we were given instructions at the stadium, we were told that we are going to attack SDUs. So according to me I don't think there is any person who can guard in the township who is not a member of the ANC. So they were guarding the township against the IFP members. MR BERGER You see if you look at the bottom of page 110, just before paragraph 10(b), there is a paragraph which reads as follows "A warning was also given to ANC supporters not to support the Self Defence Units. The idea was to intimidate the residents of Boipatong just as they had intimated us." Now you're not talking about the Self Defence Units here, you're talking about the residents of Boipatong who had intimidated you, you being the residents of KwaMadala. How had you the residents of KwaMadala been intimidated by the residents of Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO As hostel resident who enters the township in Boipatong and being seen by one of the residents in Boipatong, his life would be in danger. If only one person would see that you come from KwaMadala hostel, then your life would be in danger. It will be through a miracle, through God's help that you would manage to escape and go back to the hostel. MR BERGER So the intimidation from the residents of Boipatong included threats of death and death itself? MR MAZIBUKO During those days it was not possible that if they catch you as a member of the IFP you'll come back alive. In most cases they would kill you. It will be through a miracle that you go to a hospital. MR BERGER So just as you had been intimidated in that way by the residents of Boipatong, so you were going to intimidate them in exactly the same way, by killing them, by attacking them, by destroying them. It's exactly what you've said now, isn't that right? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER Mr Mazibuko, what is your standard of education? MR MAZIBUKO Standard eight. MR BERGER Is it correct that - let me just put you in the picture, you corrected your application at page 109, paragraph 11(b), you specifically deleted the reference to the meeting of the 10th of June 1992, correct? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And that's because you went through this document, through all the documents that are part of your application, you saw this phrase and you said no, that's not correct, it must be corrected. ADV SIGODI Sorry, before he answers that question, Mr Berger, there is something that concerns about these applications. If you notice the applications, most of them, they have this annexure which is virtually the same for all applicants. MR BERGER It's identical, yes. ADV SIGODI Identical. MR BERGER Except for Mr Victor Mthembu. ADV SIGODI Except for Mr Victor Mthembu because he had a different legal representative and for Mr Nkwandalendi Buthelezi who was saying that he was not even there. Now it's a bit of a concern to me because the purpose of this is an inquiry, is it really fair to cross-examine on something which we can all say that it was merely put in as an annexure, which is virtually the same because the working is not specific to each applicant? MR BERGER Advocate Sigodi, this particular applicant was led by my learned friend and specifically in relation to pages 110 to 111. He was asked whether he confirms the contents of those pages and he replied yes, he does confirm the contents of those pages. Once he does that I submit that those pages become his own. He has said: "I confirm those contents, I associate myself with those contents." And then if one is to attribute any political motive to him, surely I submit, either one has regard to this document to say well, that is what he says his political motive is, or else one says he hasn't said what his political motive is. Then the answers to questions 10 and, or 9 and 10 of the prescribed form, those questions have not been answered, if one has no regard to pages 110 and 111. Is it correct, Mr Mazibuko, that the contents of pages 110 to 111 were explained to you before you gave evidence yesterday? MR MAZIBUKO Let me explain it this way. Page 110 and page 111, somebody wrote the contents in these pages and I was asked whether I agree with what is written there. MR BERGER And what was your answer? MR MAZIBUKO I said I agree with the contents thereof. MR BERGER Now at page 108, question 11(b), you corrected that by taking out a reference to the 10th of June 1992, is it coincidence that you did this after Mr Xambelani Buthelezi was cross-examined this very paragraph and cross-examined on the very point of the meeting of the 10th of June 1992? What I'm suggesting to you, and you can comment, is that you were present, you heard that cross-examination and you decided you didn't want to answer any questions about any meetings prior to the 17th of June so you'd better amend that answer, isn't that what happened? MR MAZIBUKO No, that is not so. MR BERGER When you signed your amnesty application on the 20th of January 1998, were you happy with the contents of that application? I'm talking about ages 107, 108 and 109. MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I was happy with it. MR BERGER And when did you become unhappy with the answer to question 11(b)? MR MAZIBUKO When I started attending these hearings. Victor Mthembu had this book. I used to take his book and it had all our statements in it, so I was able to read it through and that is when I realised that mistake and then I realised that on that day I was not present and this is wrong. MR BERGER So you never attended any meeting prior to the 17th, you had no idea what was being done to address the concerns of the residents of KwaMadala in relation to the actions of the residents of Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO I will explain it this way. When I arrived at KwaMadala hostel the meetings that I used to attend were youth brigade meetings. I was not attending meetings that were held at the stadium, I was only attending youth brigade meetings. MR BERGER My question is, you had no idea of what plans were being made or what was being done to address the grievances of the KwaMadala residents in relation to the actions of the Boipatong residents? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER Why did you pick up the TV? MR MAZIBUKO In my room at KwaMadala hostel I did not have a TV or a radio, so even when you are relaxing we didn't even have books because when we arrived at KwaMadala hostel, I only had the clothes that I was wearing that day. MR BERGER So you took the TV so that you could watch television on it in your room at the KwaMadala hostel? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR BERGER Is it also correct that you stole a duvet from Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO No, that is not true. MR BERGER So the evidence of Theresa Mofokeng at the criminal trial that you returned from the attack with a bloody duvet which you had washed the following morning, is an outright lie? MR MAZIBUKO It is true she saw this bloody duvet in the room but she did not recognise the person who brought that duvet. It is not me who brought this duvet, it was somebody who was staying with us in the same room, it was not me. MR BERGER Who brought the duvet? MR MAZIBUKO It was Oupa Smith. MR BERGER Where is he? MR MAZIBUKO He was kidnapped in Vereeniging and he was burnt. MR BERGER He's dead? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER I'm sorry I forgot to put to you - you remember I said to you let's get to the facts, and what I was going to say to you was the fact of IFP members or supporters being killed in Boipatong is that there was a killing in January of 1992, I'm only dealing now with 1992, that was Bonangi Mbatha and the next time someone was killed, a supporter of the IFP, was on the 13th of June 1992. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I want to object to that question. I don't know if my learned friend will lead that evidence but what's been handed to us is a list of events, the violence in the Vaal Triangle from a certain period to another period and if I look through that document there, there are many more such incidents where IFP supporters were killed. MR BERGER I've also analysed that document and that is why I've put this fact. And if my learned friend has a look at the document, I'm talking about killed in Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Continue with your question. MR BERGER I've made the point that there was other violence in Sebokeng, in ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Put the question. Did you hear the question, Mr Mazibuko? MR BERGER I'll repeat, Chairperson. The question is, can you speak about any member of the IFP or supporter of the IFP who was killed in Boipatong or by residents of Boipatong between the death Bongani Mbatha and the 13th of June 1992? MR MAZIBUKO The killing that I remember that was on the 13th of June but I don't know the name of that person who was killed, but it was a man in Boipatong. MR BERGER I'm asking you, before that date and from January of 1992 after Bongani Mbatha was killed, I'm talking about the months of February, March, April, May and half of June, can you name a single IFP member of supporter who was killed by residents of Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I can do so. MR BERGER Who? MR MAZIBUKO I said before I remember that old man, I don't know his name. MR BERGER Please listen to my question. I'll give you the exact dates. Bongani Mbatha was killed on the 12th of January 1992 in Boipatong. Then there was all sorts of violence in Sharpeville, Sebokeng, Everton and then on the 13th of June, Mr David Mbele was killed and on the 14th of June, Mr B L Khumalo was killed. So from the middle of January to the middle of June is five months. And I'm asking you, in that five month period, do you know of a single IFP member of supporter who was killed by residents of Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO In my answer I would say during that time I only that old man but I don't remember the date but I only know that old man was killed in Boipatong. MR BERGER When you were moving around Boipatong and moving along the perimeter between Boipatong and Slovo Park - and you'll agree with me that there is no clear division between Boipatong and Slovo Park, there's just a road. On the one side is Boipatong and on the other is Slovo Park. MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I agree with you because that is what I said before. MR BERGER And as you were moving through the streets of Boipatong for that long period which others have estimated at an hour and a half, you never saw a single police vehicle? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not see any police vehicle in Boipatong. MR BERGER You did not see any policemen or any white men or any people wearing balaclavas? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not. MR BERGER And the people who were shooting with AK47s and with other weapons that ejected shells, they were shooting freely, there was nothing to catch the shells, no-one was picking up the shells, you didn't see any of that? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not see any person picking up the shells. MR BERGER Is it correct to say that if the police had been in Boipatong that night with the attackers, with you, and when I say "you" I mean "you" plural, you would have seen them? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. If there were police in Boipatong at that time we would have seen them. Even if there were police in assisting us in attacking the people, I would have seen that and I would have written it in my statement. MR BERGER And so the fact that you never saw any police means undoubtedly that there were no police and no police vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO There were no police in Boipatong. Even if there were police who were just patrolling in Boipatong, I would have seen them and I would say that I saw the police. So because I didn't see them, I'm saying there were no police in Boipatong then. MR BERGER Yes, what I'm saying and I'm sure you will agree with me, is that there was nothing that prevented you from seeing the police if they had been there. MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct, I agree with you. MR BERGER And the same for the army, the SADF. MR MAZIBUKO Yes, even if there were soldiers, I would have seen them. MR BERGER And if members of your group had been given lifts in military vehicles, suitcases, you would have seen that? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, if they were given lifts by the soldiers, those who were in my group, I would have seen them and I also would have taken that lift as well. CHAIRPERSON How many people were there in your group? If you can estimate, was it a large group or a fairly small group? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, it was a big group. MR BERGER And is it correct that at no stage during the attack, subsequent to the attack or until today, has anyone of your co-applicants or anyone of your friends or anybody that you knew at KwaMadala come to you and said the police were there, the police did assist us? No-one has ever said that to you, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct, you are right. MR BERGER Do you know who Dondo is? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. MR BERGER That's Jack Mbele? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And Makuka? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. MR BERGER Who is he? MR MAZIBUKO I know him by the name of Oupa Julius Selai. MR BERGER And where is he now? MR MAZIBUKO He is dead. MR BERGER Was he part of the attack? MR MAZIBUKO Well I did not see him, whether he was present or not. MR BERGER But you knew him from KwaMadala before the attack? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And Lucky is Lucky Stikenyao. MR MAZIBUKO I know him. MR BERGER That's Sonny Michael Mkwanasi? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER Themba Mabote we know was part of the attack, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER Did you see him in Boipatong during the attack? MR MAZIBUKO If I remember well I saw him when we were leaving and when we were at the open veld outside Boipatong, when we were coming back to the hostel. MR BERGER At the time of the attack, is it correct that you were friendly with Ndondo and Lucky? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER Who is Gatchene? MR MAZIBUKO It's another man. I cannot explain but I knew him, he's just another man. MR BERGER You know him from KwaMadala before the attack? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER Was he an Induna or did he hold any position? MR MAZIBUKO Well I don't know, I don't whether he had a position or he was an Induna. MR BERGER Where is he today? MR MAZIBUKO Well I don't know where he is. MR BERGER Is it also a lie that you were in possession of a Z88 gun during the attack? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is untrue. MR BERGER The first time that you saw a police or military vehicle near Boipatong was as you were leaving and you were already in the veld outside Boipatong, is that right? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER One of the military vehicles that you saw was moving along that road which separates Boipatong from the factories, Cape Gate and other factories, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And it was moving in your direction, towards you? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER You don't know where that military vehicle came from? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct, I don't know where it came from. MR BERGER And the other two military vehicles you saw in the road, the main road that separates the veld from KwaMadala, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO Can you repeat the question again, Sir. MR BERGER The other two military vehicles that you saw were in the road which separates, the main road which separates the veld next to Boipatong and the veld next to KwaMadala. MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And all three military vehicles moved towards the corner where that garage is, where the robots are. MR BERGER They turned at the garage and facing the way to, moving down the way to Vanderbijl Park. MR BERGER That was the one that came from Cape Gate side, turned the corner, turned left at the corner? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And the other two reversed towards the corner from along the main road? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And all three military vehicles remained there whilst you and the other attackers congregated in the veld before crossing the road? MR MAZIBUKO When they stopped, even by the time Themba was shooting at them, we were moving but there were other people who were sitting down. MR BERGER Isn't it so that after you had finished the attack in Boipatong you all moved to that veld outside Boipatong and waited for all the attackers to join you before you crossed the road? MR MAZIBUKO When I was leaving Boipatong there were already other people in front of me, so when I arrived at them I did not sit and I did not stand, so I was always moving. That was the time when Themba was shooting towards the soldiers. So there were other people who were standing there but I was moving. MR BERGER And the people who were standing in the veld, there were a large number of people, in fact most of the attackers were there in the veld, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, most of them were already there. MR BERGER And then you crossed the road about 30 metres away, the distance of this hall, away from the military vehicles, is that right? MR MAZIBUKO It is not a long distance to cross over the road. MR BERGER The distance between you, your group and the military vehicles as you crossed over the road was about the length of this hall which is about 30 metres, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I will agree with you on that. MR BERGER And at that time the military vehicles were stationary, they weren't moving, they weren't going anywhere, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Can you please repeat your question again? MR BERGER At the time when you and the other attackers were crossing the road to go back to KwaMadala, the three military vehicles that you've spoken about were not going anywhere, they were stationary, correct? MR MAZIBUKO No, that is not correct. The time we were crossing over the road the two army vehicles were reversing and the other one had already turned. That was the time when me and others were crossing over the road. So when I crossed over they were not there. MR BERGER Yes, alright. You see the reason - well let me ask you this, were they moving slowly, the vehicles? MR MAZIBUKO They started moving slowly when they turned towards Vanderbijl Park. MR BERGER You've said when they turned left then they started moving slowly. MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And the two military vehicles that were reversing were reversing slowly towards the vehicle that had just turned left? MR MAZIBUKO Let me explain it this way. These two vehicles, the person who was in front, who was driving the army vehicle in front is the one who turned around after realising that the other two vehicles were already reversing. So they were not moving faster, they were all slow. MR BERGER And Mr Beki Mkhize was with you at the time, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO I don't want to lie to say that he was with me. The only person that I remember who was with me that time was Themba Mabote. I don't know where Mr Mkhize had disappeared to then. MR BERGER How did you know that it was time to go back to KwaMadala? MR MAZIBUKO I've already said that when we were in the township I heard screams that we should go back. So it was easy to see that people were no leaving the township. MR BERGER When you crossed the road, you and the other attackers to go back to Boipatong, how fast were you moving? MR MAZIBUKO The time when we crossed the road on your way to KwaMadala, we were moving faster. We were moving faster than when we went to Boipatong. MR BERGER Were you running? MR MAZIBUKO Some were running but they were not running fast. MR BERGER And you moved across the road and back to KwaMadala, back onto the road under the bridge and used the same route to enter KwaMadala as you had used to come out when you had started the attack, correct? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And the soldiers in the army vehicles made no attempt to stop any of you from going back to KwaMadala, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct, they never stopped us on our way back to KwaMadala. All of us were not stopped until we reached KwaMadala hostel. MR BERGER If you'll just bear with me for a moment. MR SIBANYONI Maybe while you are still preparing for another question. Mr Mazibuko, why were these vehicles reversing? MR MAZIBUKO I think it is because they heard that shot, maybe they thought that we would shoot at them because we were many. That is what I think because they started reversing when Themba Mabote started shooting at them. MR SIBANYONI Would you say they saw you in a group coming to cross the road? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct, they saw us. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. MR BERGER Mr Mazibuko, you say that as you were crossing the road, the soldiers in the military vehicles saw you? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct, they saw us. MR BERGER Are you also known as Lucky Stikenyao? MR MAZIBUKO No, it's not me but there was a time I was called Lucky Stikenyao but it was only Hollie who called me Stikenyao. MR BERGER So there were two Lucky Stikenyao's? MR MAZIBUKO Let me explain it this way. The people at KwaMadala didn't know that I'm Stikenyao, there's only person who called me Stikenyao and that is Hollie Bajosi. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any further questions? MR BERGER I do. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please ask the questions. MR BERGER I put it to you that you are not being honest with the Committee, that in fact the police were present during the attack, police vehicles assisted the attackers in transporting some of them into the township and carrying the loot from the township back to KwaMadala. MR MAZIBUKO What you are saying to me Mr Berger, I do not agree with you that there were police there. I'm not trying to run away from the truth but I am telling you that I do not agree with that statement. MR BERGER And I also put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was part of the attack, what do you say to that? MR MAZIBUKO I only saw Prince Vanana Zulu after the attack. MR BERGER Where did you see him? MR MAZIBUKO I saw him when we were at the stadium, and that was for the first time that I saw him. MR BERGER That was after the attack? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. Let me explain it this way. The first time that I saw Prince Vanana Zulu, when there was a conflict between us and the police, when they were saying to us should board their vehicles so that they can go and question us, that was the time that I saw Prince Vanana Zulu. MR BERGER Was that the day after the attack, the next day? MR MAZIBUKO No, that is not the next day. It can be after a week or some days. MR BERGER So the police only wanted to take you for questioning about a week after the attack? MR MAZIBUKO Even before the end of that week, police were already coming at the hostel. They wanted to take us but we refused and there were others who came after a few days. MR BERGER I want to read to you what Mr Themba Khosa said during your criminal trial. And I'm reading from page 3238 of the criminal record. He was asked "Who did you speak with in the hostel when you came to the hostel, when you arrived at the hostel on the 19th of June?" And his answer was: "I spoke to two people, one of them was Mr Mthembu. I'm not certain if the other person Mtwana was, if the other person was Mtwana ..." And we know that is Prince Vanana Zulu. "... but I recall that I spoke to Mr Mthembu." And then on page 3239, second paragraph he was asked the question: "Good. Can you remember if Mr Mtwana was at the meeting?" And Mr Khosa's answer was: "Yes, he ought to have been there, yes, he must have been there. I can't remember if all the leaders were present because my intention was not to speak to the leaders separately." Now we know that Prince Vanana Zulu was the key leader in the hostel, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO To say that he was a key leader at the hostel, I don't want to commit myself in that regard because I don't know. MR BERGER And if Prince Vanana Zulu had not been present immediately after the attack - here they're talking about the 19th of June, Mr Themba Khosa would have seen that and he would have noted that. Besides this evidence I put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was seen in Boipatong at the time of the attack. CHAIRPERSON Did you see Mr Zulu in Boipatong during the attack? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not. MR BERGER Is it possible that Prince Vanana Zulu was in Boipatong at the time of the attack and you never saw him? MR MAZIBUKO Like Mr Berger says that Prince Vanana Zulu is one of the key leaders of KwaMadala, if he was there he would have given a speech at the stadium on the 17th of June, should he have been there. MR BERGER So your answer is, if he was there you would have seen him? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER The day after the attack, the 18th of June, were you at the hostel? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct, I was at the hostel. MR BERGER The whole day? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And is it correct that Mr Themba Khosa visited the hostel on the 18th of June 1992? MR MAZIBUKO Mr Themba Khosa arrived after the attack but I don't remember exactly whether it's the day after the attack, but I remember that he was present at the stadium. He was accompanied by Mr Humphrey Ndlovu. MR BERGER Well I can tell you that yesterday afternoon Mr Themba Khosa telephoned, or spoke to SAFM and in that interview he stated that he was at KwaMadala hostel on the 18th of June 1992, within hours of having heard the news on the radio. So you can accept that it was the day immediately after the attack. MR MAZIBUKO I would not agree or disagree with that. Like I've already explain that I was present at that day when Mr Themba Khosa addressed the meeting but I don't remember whether it was on the 18th or not. MR BERGER And at that meeting Mr Themba Khosa told you to destroy the evidence linking you to the massacre, including all the goods stolen from Boipatong, is that right? MR MAZIBUKO I didn't hear that at the stadium. What I heard, he said to us that we should co-operate with the police. MR BERGER Did he ask you if you were involved in the massacre? Not "you" personally, "you" plural. MR MAZIBUKO What I remember him saying at the stadium was that he heard that there was a massacre in Boipatong and there are allegations that we are suspects. So the police was to search the hostel so that they can see if they can get something that will link us to the massacre in Boipatong. That is what I remember him saying. MR BERGER Who burnt the goods, the loot from Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO I didn't see the person who burnt the goods. MR BERGER But you did see the goods being burnt? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I did see the goods burning. MR BERGER Where were the goods burnt? MR MAZIBUKO They were burnt inside the big dustbin which was in front of the room where I was staying with Tshabango. MR BERGER And was that before or after Themba Khosa arrived? MR MAZIBUKO The time when I left the room to the stadium some of the goods were already burning then and that was the time I found Themba Khosa in the stadium. MR BERGER So Themba Khosa was in the stadium at the time when the goods were being burnt? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And the police were in the stadium with Themba Khosa at the time when the goods were being burnt? MR MAZIBUKO When Themba Khosa was still in the stadium the good were still burning but the police had not yet entered the gate. There was only one Nyala and there was only policemen on top of that Nyala holding the video. They only came into the stadium after Themba Khosa had addressed us. MR BERGER So when Themba Khosa addressed you in the stadium there were no policemen present? MR MAZIBUKO The time Themba Khosa addressed us in the stadium he was accompanied by two white senior policemen, the time he was addressing us. MR BERGER And at that time the stolen property from Boipatong was being burnt. MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER Do you confirm that Mr Mkhize, Beki Nkosi Mkhize, Mr Matanda and Mr Richard Dlamini went from room to room taking goods which had been stolen from Boipatong, to where they were burnt? MR MAZIBUKO I did not see these three people taking stolen goods to where they were burnt. They only announced that all those goods that were stolen from Boipatong should be taken to the dustbin. And there were other people who were taking those goods to the dustbin. MR BERGER Let me read to you what you say at page 118, you say "Mkhize ..." This is the second last paragraph. "... Mkhize, Matanda and Richard Dlamini walked from room to room and took the goods to a big rubbish holder where they were burnt." Is that not correct, Mr Mazibuko? MR MAZIBUKO What is written here, Mr Berger, I'll agree that I said ...(indistinct) that Mr Mkhize, Mr Matanda and ... they were taking goods which were stolen from Boipatong. But what I'm saying in this statement is that these people were taking goods from room to room, it was not possible. I will ask you to forgive me if I said that, what I wanted to say is that they were announcing room to room that people should take out the goods so that they should be burnt. MR BERGER So what is stated in this paragraph is not correct? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, this paragraph that refers to these three people is correct but only where I say they were taking goods from room to room, that portion is incorrect. What I wanted to say is that they were moving from one room to another announcing because it was not possible for them to do that. MR BERGER Who is - why did you not correct this? MR MAZIBUKO I have marked with a pen there if I remember well, I intended to rectify that mistake. MR BERGER Who is Matanda? MR MAZIBUKO It's one of the hostel dwellers. I only know him by the name of Matanda but we used to call him Father as well. MR BERGER Where is he now? MR MAZIBUKO I don't want to commit myself, I don't know where he is now. MR BERGER Chairperson, I see it's past 1 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Do you still have many questions to ask? MR BERGER ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Well finish up then. How long do you think we'll take? MR BERGER I should be approximately 10 minutes and I'll be done. CHAIRPERSON Ja, well let's continue then. MR BERGER When were you arrested, Mr Mazibuko? MR MAZIBUKO Regarding the Boipatong massacre? MR BERGER Have you been arrested for other things as well? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I'm in prison right now. MR BERGER For another massacre? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER When were you arrested in relation to the Boipatong massacre? MR MAZIBUKO I don't remember the date and the month but what I remember is that I handed myself over to the police station. I was accompanied by my lawyer to the police station. MR BERGER You don't know if it was a week after the massacre, a month after the massacre? MR MAZIBUKO I can say it was after a month. MR BERGER And the other massacre that you're in jail for, which one is that? MR MAZIBUKO I'm in jail for murder and robbery. MR BERGER I just want to know which incident you're referring to. CHAIRPERSON Is that relevant to the proceedings? MR BERGER Indeed Chairperson, if there was another massacre that this ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He never said "massacre", he said he's in jail for murder and robbery. MR BERGER Well Chairperson, murder of how many people eventually ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, but he is not before us on that matter, he is here in connection with the Boipatong massacre. MR BERGER Chairperson, I won't pursue it, save to place on record that I've already made it clear that we intend to argue that there was a plan of the IFP to sow mayhem in the Vaal for political purposes. What I am attempting to investigate is whether this action was part of that plan. I won't take it further. You know that Victor Keswa was called "The Vaal Monster"? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I know. MR BERGER How did you get rid of your weapons? CHAIRPERSON He said he put them on the roof, on the scaffold. ...(end of tape) MR BERGER ... where you left them? MR MAZIBUKO After the attack the police came and they searched. They took everything, a weapon and iron bar and everything. So all of them were taken by the police. MR BERGER Did the police take your weapons from the place where you had left them? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct they took them. I did not hide them I just threw them there. I just threw them there. So when I hide something I make a point that no-one will get it. MR BERGER So the police would have known that those particular weapons came from your room? MR MAZIBUKO The way they were taking these weapons, they would not know which weapon belongs to which room because they were just taking them and throwing them into a van. MR BERGER Yes, that is so, all the weapons were placed in a pile but what I'm asking you is, when the police took the weapons they took it from your room, before it went onto the pile, the police would have known that those weapons came from your room, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO I cannot say that they knew that they came from my room because those people who were searching there on top, they were throwing everything on the ground. So there were those who were collecting them on the ground and taking them to the people who were standing outside and those people outside would take them and load them into the van. MR BERGER I'm just trying to get a simple point answered. When you put your weapons on the scaffolding after the attack, those weapons were still in your room, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO I threw them there after the attack and they were taken from the same place where I threw them after the attack. MR BERGER And the place where you threw them, that scaffolding was part of your room? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER And when you threw the weapons there you were not wearing any gloves or anything, you had your bare hands and then you threw the weapons there, am I right? MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. MR BERGER Thank you, Mr Mazibuko, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi, we intend rising now but if you want to proceed with the cross-examination you can do so, but we intend rising now and then perhaps you can start when we resume at two. MR MALINDI Chairperson, it's just one aspect, it will take one or two minutes. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. MR MALINDI Chairperson, I conferred with my colleagues and they suggest that we take the adjournment and then we'll proceed when we come back. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll come back at 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, do you have any idea what these documents that have been put before us are or what where they're supposed to go? I mean I see further particulars of Xholisene Mkhize, Paulos Mbatha, Form 1 application, two loose pages and further particulars. MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. These documents which were outstanding in the bundle. When the bundle was prepared they were not yet furnished by the legal representatives for those particular applicants. So they are therefore supplemented into the bundle. In particular Chairperson, if one can look on ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, now other than just giving them to us in this loose fashion, shouldn't they perhaps form part of the bundle and perhaps be paginated somehow? MR MAPOMA Yes, I agree, Chairperson, that is the proper way of doing it. Unfortunately I myself just got hold of them when the Committee was just getting in. Otherwise they were not channelled through me properly, unfortunately. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. Mr Berger, do you have these documents? These are further particulars relating to Xholeseni Mkhize and then Mbatha? MR BERGER Yes, we've also been given a bundle. CHAIRPERSON Is it a bundle or just ... MR BERGER Well in exactly the same fashion that you've given. I believe my learned friend, Mr Strydom handed them out just before we reconvened. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. Well could I ask that perhaps somehow they be paginated or they form part of the other documentation so that reference to them can be easy, or either you can make them a separate bundle or somehow incorporate them into others so that reference to them will be much more easier? MR STRYDOM Yes, Chairperson, I thought it would be practical to number these pages, say for instance the last page which deals with Mkhize, well Xholeseni Mkhize is 107 and then make it 107A, B and C, just to have it in the correct place in the bundle and then the same would apply to Mr Mbatha's further documents. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps it would be convenient to do that when we're dealing with that particular applicant. MR STRYDOM I agree, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, would that be in order? MR BERGER Yes, that will be in order. We can work on them in the meantime. CHAIRPERSON Ja, okay very well. Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath. MR MAZIBUKO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Chairperson, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON I wasn't going to hold you to your two minutes. MS CAMBANIS I have no questions, thank you, Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chair, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom? FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you, Chairperson, only one or two questions. I just want to clarify one point. At a certain stage you were asked about the reason why you are in custody now and you referred to either another matter or another massacre, did you say matter or massacre? MR MAZIBUKO On person, Sir, the murder of one person, Sir. MR STRYDOM Yes. Do you have any reason whatsoever to protect the police or the Defence Force? MR MAZIBUKO I have no reason. If I knew that the police were there I would notify this Committee. I do not understand that I would be afraid to talk about people who participated in the massacre. If they played a role I could have identified them in my evidence because that is the important issue which should surface. If they were there I would identify that the police were there and they participated. Then if there were soldiers I would identify their identity and their clothes and again their vehicles. MR STRYDOM You were also referred to the bundle and the document on page 109 and you were asked about the change, or the fact that certain portions of that question 11(b) was wrong and you were asked about meetings and you were scared to mention meetings. You wanted that reference to the 10th of June to be deleted ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, what is the question? MR STRYDOM I just put the background before I put the question. I want to refer you to your statement on page 117 and the first paragraph on that page. I'm going to translate it to you and I want to know if you stand by that. CHAIRPERSON Just before you get to that. He has told us that he went through a book, and by that I assume that he meant, he was referring to the application papers which one of the applicants had, and that on going through those documents he made a note of those matters that were inaccurate. He has told us that some of those that he did not refer to as a mistake and were in fact a mistake, and he apologised to Mr Berger for that mistake. What is the point now? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the only point I want to make is that there was a suggestion that there was a particular reason for changing the, or asking for the 10th of June to be deleted, but in his original statement he said that he knew nothing of the attack before the 17th. So there was no reason for him to change that because it was already contained in his statement. That is the point I want to make. CHAIRPERSON Well just direct him to that portion of the document. MR STRYDOM I want to refer you to page 117, to that paragraph which reads "I knew nothing about the attack beforehand, it was only on the 17th of June 1992 at the stadium that I heard about it." Is that indeed your evidence? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is my evidence. MR STRYDOM Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS Just one question. Was Victor Keswa present on the 17th of June in Boipatong? MR MAZIBUKO He was not present on the 17th of June. MS PRETORIUS Do you know where he was? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I know. MS PRETORIUS Where was he? MR MAZIBUKO He was at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station. MS PRETORIUS Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr da Silva? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA May it please you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mazibuko, I want to take you to where you described these group of attackers, where they were gathering in the veld between Boipatong and the road that leads to Vanderbijl Park. In an answer to Mr Berger's question you said that most of the attackers were in the veld, and I gather that what you meant was that most of the attackers were in the veld before they crossed the road. Is that what you meant? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is what I said. I said when we get out of Boipatong, when I left Boipatong there were people who were standing and others who were sitting down. Others were standing, others were bending, others were sitting down, before we crossed the road. MR DA SILVA Now in a question from Mrs Pretorius yesterday you estimated that there were about 200 to 300 attackers, do you recall that? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I remember. MR DA SILVA Would that be the same amount of people that were gathered in the veld before they crossed the road on the way to KwaMadala? MR MAZIBUKO I would not say that because when we left Boipatong, there were those who were behind me, there were those who were in front of me, there were those who were already sitting in the veld, when we left Boipatong. MR DA SILVA But if you had to make a rough estimate, and I'm now taking you back to your evidence where you say "Most of the attackers were in the veld." Do I understand it that it was a large group of about 200 people at least? MR MAZIBUKO I said I did not want to commit myself in estimating the number as to who were sitting in the veld or standing in the veld and those who were behind. I don't want to commit myself on that number. MR DA SILVA Now you also testified under cross-examination that some people, some were running but others were not moving that fast. When the group crossed the road, were they moving in a military unit like an impie, were they running in a fast jog in the military unit, is that what they were doing? MR MAZIBUKO What I can explain is that I don't know the method of military movement. Yes, we were not running fast, the pace was just average but you can say that the person was moving on a faster pace though not faster. MR DA SILVA So would you describe this as a fast jog, was everybody jogging in a fast manner back to get to the hostel? MR MAZIBUKO Before we crossed the road we saw the soldiers. I could observe that they were trying to move faster so that they should avoid arrest by those soldiers whom we saw. They wanted to be safe. MR DA SILVA The point that I'm trying to make, Mr Mazibuko, is that the group that crossed the road, the majority of them were running, I'm not saying running at speed, but in a fast jog across the road, is that how you would describe them? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, they were moving faster. MR DA SILVA Now also in regard to a question which Mr Berger put to you, I understood from your evidence yesterday that you described that the two vehicles that were reversing were in the vicinity of the Trek garage and that one vehicle approached you, did I understand your evidence correctly or did all three vehicles approach the group? MR MAZIBUKO When I first saw those cars they were on the road between Boipatong and the firms, then they turned to the left to the road towards Vanderbijl Park. When they turned they reduced their speed. After Mr Mabote started shooting, two of these cars reversed then the front one did not turn faster. The driver of the first car did not see that the two vehicles were reversing, therefore he made a U-turn. That is the time when we crossed the road. MR DA SILVA Now what I want to clarify, Mr Mazibuko, is it your evidence that all three vehicles were approximately 30 metres away from you, or is it your evidence that only one of the vehicles was approximately 30 metres away from you and the other two were near the Trek garage? MR MAZIBUKO They were following each other, there was no-one who was a little bit closer or a little bit further from the other one. I'm not able to explain as to whether the other one was 30 metres and the other on was 15 metres or 20 metres. They were in the same line closer to each other or to one another. MR DA SILVA Now Mr Mazibuko, I now dealt with this and it's been dealt with today in regard the amount of vehicles that you saw. Isn't there a possibility, and I want you to think very carefully about this, after the attack there were many vehicles or there were numerous vehicles that patrolled the vicinity of Boipatong and KwaMadala, aren't you making a mistake when you're saying that you saw three vehicles and that you might have seen three vehicles at a later stage and not at the stage when you crossed the road? What I'm putting to you is, aren't you making a mistake that at the stage that you crossed the road, that there was only one vehicle and you might be mistaking that to an incident later that evening? MR MAZIBUKO When I saw there were three I don't make a mistake. That's how I observed the situation. MR DA SILVA But Mr Mazibuko, you will agree with me that Mr Bajosi was also part of that group, would you agree with that, Hollie Bajosi? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I know him, I know him very well. MR DA SILVA Do you agree that he was part of the group returning to KwaMadala? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. MR DA SILVA In the criminal trial at volume 6, page 577, he describes a single military vehicle, can you explain that? MR MAZIBUKO I'm not able to explain why he's talking about one car because that is what he saw. MR DA SILVA But on your description if you have three cars on the road, you can't make a mistake, you either see three cars or you see one car. Mr Bajosi saw one car, one vehicle. MR MAZIBUKO I'm not saying I'm making a mistake and I would not say he's making a mistake, that is how he saw. If he says he saw one car, there is no way where I can dispute what he is saying. I listen because it's what he says but I saw three cars. MR DA SILVA Do you know Mr Oupa Maloi? He also testified at the criminal trial. MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I know him. MR DA SILVA He was also part of this group, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR DA SILVA And at volume 12, page 1318 he talks of one military vehicle, he doesn't talk of three vehicles, can you explain how he makes that mistake? MR MAZIBUKO I'm not able to explain why he made that mistake because even in Court both of them made a mistake. One said I was having a knopkierrie, the other one said I had a gun, which means they committed two mistakes which are different because I said I saw three cars and both of them saw one car. So I don't know how to comment on that aspect. MR DA SILVA The point that I wish to stress, Mr Mazibuko, is that both Mr Bajosi and Mr Maloi testified that they saw one vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Mr da Silva, I have been somewhat patient. The witness has repeatedly said he saw three motor vehicles and your instructions are that there was one motor vehicle. The point has been canvassed thoroughly. I mean, should we be belabouring this point? MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman, I'm not going to take the matter any further. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DA SILVA In regard to this group of persons crossing the road, my information is that it took approximately two minutes to cross the road, can you give any comment in that regard? For the group to cross from the one side of the road to the other, can you give any comment in that regard? CHAIRPERSON I just want to be clear on the question. It took approximately two minutes for the whole group or it normally take two minutes for a person to cross? MR DA SILVA It took two minutes for the whole group, Mr Chairman. MR MAZIBUKO There is nothing I can say because I don't know how long we took to cross. If I may say, to cross there it takes seconds but I did not observe how long we took. I would not know as to whether all of us, how long did we take. I did not pay attention to the time, how we took, my worry was just to cross and go to Madala hostel. I didn't observe. MR DA SILVA I gain an impression that you're not very clear about the time of when the group crossed the road, are you able to estimate more or less when this happened, at what time of day? MR MAZIBUKO I don't want to lie, I don't want to lie what time was it. MR DA SILVA My information is that it would be approximately at 10.30 in the evening, would you dispute that? MR MAZIBUKO If they say that, I would not dispute, I'm listening. MR BERGER Chairperson, I'm sorry to interrupt but it might become relevant later. Just for the purposes of clarity, when my learned friend says: "My information is that it took two minutes for the group to cross the road" and so on, is this material that emanates that emanates from the South African National Defence Force, in which case one would then be able to use it in cross-examining such witnesses or does it come from a different source? MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman, those are my instructions. CHAIRPERSON Those are his instructions. MR BERGER Chairperson, unfortunately that doesn't assist me. CHAIRPERSON Suffice as to say that what he is putting to this witness is on the basis of his instructions. MR BERGER From the Defence Force? MR DA SILVA I only act for one party, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Put another question. MR DA SILVA May it please you, Mr Chairman. Now a last aspect, Mr Mazibuko, from where you were standing and looking at these vehicles, can you estimate at all or could you give an idea of how many soldiers were in the vehicles? Is it possible for you to do so? MR MAZIBUKO No, I would not be able to estimate. MR DA SILVA My instructions are that on the single vehicle there were four soldiers, would you dispute the amount of soldiers on the vehicle that was closest to you? MR MAZIBUKO I will not disagree with you because I don't know or I did not know at that time how many soldiers were in one car. I want to explain to you shortly in this way; when you look on one side, you can only see their hats or their heads. On the side where I was standing I saw that soldiers were inside but you would not be able to tell how many soldiers are in that car or in that vehicle. MR DA SILVA I have not further questions, Mr Chairman. There is one aspect that I undertook to come back to the Committee about, and that was in regard to the distance between the applicant and the furtherest wall. My attorney measured the distance and he measured 29 paces, so the estimate of 30 paces is approximately correct. CHAIRPERSON And I take it that in regard to the question of the approximate time that the motor vehicle you said was in around the vicinity, is 10.30? MR DA SILVA That is correct and that is precisely why I put it to the witness, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DA SILVA I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr da Silva. MS CAMBANIS Honourable Chairperson, may I ask, following Mr Berger's enquiry, about what Mr da Silva has been putting, he has furnished us with a copy of the reply to our memorandum and nowhere in that memorandum does he talk about information that a group was seen crossing, that it took a period of two minutes. We don't, or I don't understand what he means by his instructions, it doesn't appear in his reply, is he going to tender a witness, is there a report or what is this information, is it going to be placed before this Committee? CHAIRPERSON For the purposes of this inquiry in these proceedings, we are satisfied that he is acting on his instructions. We know that he is acting for the Defence Force and those are the instructions given to him by the Defence Force. Whether he will call witnesses is a matter on which he has to make a decision. The reason why he is here is because the Defence Force is implicated and that is why he is here. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms ...(indistinct) MS TANZER No re-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mazibuko, you mentioned Richard Dlamini, Mr Matanda and Mr Mkhize going round to various rooms telling people to go and burn the items that were looted from Boipatong, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Now when Mr Mkhize gave evidence yesterday, he denied any knowledge of goods being burnt or playing any part in giving any instructions for those goods to be burnt. Now in fairness I just want you to comment on that. MR MAZIBUKO Mr Mkhize did not - if he disagrees with that fact, I don't know but I saw him and that is why I testified before this Commission that I saw him. MR LAX Thanks. Were you aware that Victor Keswa was reputed to have a gang? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not know that. MR LAX And all the allegations about his activities which led to him being called "The Monster of the Vaal", did you know about those activities? MR MAZIBUKO I didn't know about those activities. MR LAX Did you know about the allegations? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I learnt from people when they were commenting about him but the way I knew him he was not like that, the way he was portrayed. MR LAX Did you ever ask him about those allegations? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not. MR LAX You were never part of any gang that he may have led? MR MAZIBUKO No, I have never been part to any gang. MR LAX Why did you go and visit him in jail? MR MAZIBUKO The reason was that he was my friend even whilst we were in the township. MR LAX Now, you said that you were aware of the complaints of the residents, you were questioned about the complaints of the residents, about the attacks on them, and you went on to say that you were one of those people who were complaining, do you remember that? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do remember. MR LAX You said you weren't interested in attending any of the meetings, you were just interested in the safety of your family and dealing with the people who were attacking your family, is that right? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, you're right. MR LAX So what steps did you take to deal with those people who were attacking your family? MR MAZIBUKO When I was at Madala hostel, what was in my mind firstly was the welfare of my family, as to where they are, are they safe or not, the house is not burnt, there is no-one within my family who has been attacked. Those are the issues which occupied my mind. When it entered my mind, anything which I would do at that time I would not be able to concentrate, I would not even have an appetite because I would be eating and I would be thinking of them as to what are they eating at that time or do they have that time to eat. So those are the issues which occupied my mind all the time. MR LAX I understood that your family was attacked, am I mistaken in that understanding? MR MAZIBUKO Not that they were attacked. I thought perhaps they would be attacked or if they can be attacked what could happen to them. MR LAX So they weren't attacked? MR MAZIBUKO No, they were never attacked but people came to look for me in my house. MR LAX Then what were you complaining about? Your family weren't attacked, what complaint did you have? MR MAZIBUKO What scared me - how can I put it, I did not have complaints to take them to the committee, we were discussing within ourselves, those who came from the township, as to whether, we were asking ourselves as to whether, or getting reports from those who came from the township, as to whether who is attacked, who is not attacked. Maybe the people who attacked me could attack my family also. MR LAX Yes, but you said you were one of the residents who had complaints about being attacked, and when you were asked to explain you said that it was your family that you were worried about and not yourself. Do you understand what I'm tying to put to you? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. MR DA SILVA So if they weren't attacked, what I'm trying to understand is what complaints did you then have. MR MAZIBUKO The main complain was my shooting. MR LAX But that was a matter that was over and done with already before you even came to KwaMadala. MR MAZIBUKO I went to Madala hostel whilst I was still limping, immediately after I had been shot. It was not after a long time. MR LAX You said during your evidence that it was your job to break windows, that's how you described it. You were busy with your job breaking windows, that is how you put it, what did you mean by that? MR MAZIBUKO I was explaining that I did not attack any person, what I was busy with at that time was breaking windows. MR LAX So the main thing that you did was break windows. How many houses did you break windows in? MR MAZIBUKO Many houses, many houses. My hand was tired the way I was using it to break the windows. MR LAX Can you estimate, more than 10, more than 20, more than 30? MR MAZIBUKO That would be a small number if I said 20 or 30, I am not able to explain how many houses. I entered Boipatong, I started breaking windows and at the end I was still breaking windows. MR LAX You see, you were asked by Mr Berger "Why did you break the windows?" And you said you broke the windows to see whether there were SDU members inside, do you remember that? MR MAZIBUKO I remember when I was saying - Mr Berger asked me how did it come that we should break windows whilst we went there to attack the SDUs, I said the reason is that for us to break windows is that when we were shooting some of the SDUs went into the yards and we were not able to see where they were hiding, we thought maybe they are in those houses. That is why we started breaking those windows. That is what I remember saying. MR LAX But surely, after the first few houses where you saw nobody inside, you must have realised they must have carried on running and disappeared somewhere else? Why was it necessary to break so many houses' windows? MR MAZIBUKO It just happened, to break windows. Others were entering into the houses, so it just happened. No-one said to somebody you should stop because those people are not there, we cannot find them in those houses, let me stop breaking those windows. MR LAX Well wasn't it rather that you wanted to teach this community a lesson, you went around destroying their property, isn't that really what you were doing? MR MAZIBUKO That's what I've explained, that something of that sort would happen again, that one of the families would die and the property is destroyed and the windows are destroyed. That's one of those reasons. MR LAX I'm asking you whether that was your intention in doing that. MR MAZIBUKO No, that was not my intention to do that. For me to break those windows it just happened, it was not a premeditated intention that when I got to Boipatong I should break windows. It just happened. MR LAX So you don't know why you broke those windows? MR MAZIBUKO I would not give a specific reason. What I am saying is that we just started breaking windows because we thought the SDUs ran into those houses. MR LAX But they couldn't have run into all the houses whose windows you broke, you mentioned more than 30. MR MAZIBUKO May you please repeat the question? MR LAX You've mentioned that you broke more than 30 houses and that would be a small number you said. They couldn't have run into all those houses. MR MAZIBUKO Yes, they would not be able to run into all of those houses. MR LAX So what we're trying to understand is what your objective was in breaking those windows. MR MAZIBUKO I did not have an intention as to why I was breaking those windows. I saw others continuing breaking the windows and then I started breaking the windows. MR LAX You just got carried away, is that what you are saying? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, Sir. MR LAX You see earlier in your evidence you also spoke about, when we were talking about teaching the community a lesson, the residents a lesson, you said that if they wouldn't reprimand the SDU members the same thing that happened in Boipatong would happen again, and you said people would lose their properties. That's how you described it. MR MAZIBUKO I'll explain it in this way. I was saying if they don't reprimand them that would happen again. I would say that would stick in their mind, that if you have kidnapped one Inkatha member, kill him or burn him, they would know that anything would happen. It may happen that these people would come and pay revenge. They would have the same problems which we encountered before. MR LAX The point I'm trying to make is, was losing their properties part of the lesson that you were teaching them? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, Sir. MR LAX Thank you, Chairperson, I've no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Mr Mazibuko, you said there was a fight between yourself ...(inaudible). INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR SIBANYONI To whom were you referring by "fellow comrades"? INTERPRETER The speaker's mike was not on, it cuts. Can you please repeat your question? MR SIBANYONI Thank you. Mr Mazibuko, at the beginning of your evidence you said while you were living in Sebokeng there was a fight between yourself and your fellow comrades, to whom were you referring by "fellow comrades"? MR MAZIBUKO I was referring to the ANC supporters in Sebokeng. MR SIBANYONI Were you at any stage an ANC supporter yourself? MR MAZIBUKO I've never been a member or a supporter of the ANC. MR SIBANYONI But why do you refer to them as "fellow comrades", as if you are with them? MR MAZIBUKO Well I did not refer to them as "fellow comrades" but what I said is I was a friend to a guy called Ntwana. So that time he was a member of the IFP, so there were allegations that I was also a member of the IFP. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that's the single question. ADV SIGODI It was put to some of the other applicants that women were raped, did you see any of that happening? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not see that happen. ADV SIGODI Do you know Sonny Michael Mkwanazi? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I know him very well. ADV SIGODI Did you see him on that day? MR MAZIBUKO I did not see him. ADV SIGODI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Prior the attack on Boipatong your family had never been attacked. MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Had you been attacked? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I was attacked. CHAIRPERSON Did you fear that your family might be attacked? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I had that fear that my family would be attacked. CHAIRPERSON And that is the fear that you would have had in regard to your relatives? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct, that is what worried me a lot. CHAIRPERSON So you couldn't possibly have had any complaint? MR MAZIBUKO There was nothing else, the only thing that worried me was my parents' safety. CHAIRPERSON Then why didn't you tell us that, that you feared that your family might be attacked? MR MAZIBUKO I do not understand the question clearly. CHAIRPERSON Well, you were asked at length as to what complaint did you have and it turned out to be, all that happened is that you feared that your family might be attacked. So rather than telling us about this complaint, why didn't you just tell us that all there was is that you feared? MR MAZIBUKO If I remember well I said that, that when I arrived at KwaMadala hostel I was always worried about my parents. That is what I said before. CHAIRPERSON The television set that you picked up, you were going to put that in your room. MR MAZIBUKO That's correct. CHAIRPERSON During the course of that evening did you hit any human being? MR MAZIBUKO No, I did not hit any human being. CHAIRPERSON But in the houses that you went to, did any of the occupants perhaps come out running? MR MAZIBUKO Most of the people who came out of the houses, who were running out, were women and I did not intend to hit women. But if I saw somebody, a man of my age, I would make sure that when I leave him he is cold. CHAIRPERSON But you didn't come across any man, did you? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Is there anything arising from the questions? MR STRYDOM No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS PRETORIUS I have none. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS MR DA SILVA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY R DA SILVA MR MAPOMA No questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR BERGER Nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER MR MALINDI Nothing further, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mazibuko, you may stand down.