amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-01-22 VEREENIGING 5 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53122&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99011827_vrn_990122ve.htm CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane, may I remind you that you are still under oath. RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, you may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (Continued) Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Magubane, please have a look at the document at page 90 of the bundle. It goes from page 90 to page 92. Now you remember yesterday your counsel read through this document and you confirmed that that was the truth? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER You made this statement in June of 1998. MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Six years after the massacre. MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER And you could still remember details of things you had done on the night of the massacre, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Were you assisted by anyone in making this statement? MR MAGUBANE Nobody helped me, I did it on my own. MR BERGER Who interpreted for you? MR MAGUBANE I don't the name of the person, but I had a translator. MR BERGER According to the bottom of page 92, the interpreter was M S Tshabangu. MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Is that Nana Tshabangu? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And the attorney who took the oath is Mr Fredericks, who is sitting next to your counsel today. MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Where was this statement taken? MR MAGUBANE In prison. MR BERGER Was Mr Nana Tshabangu also in prison with you at the time? MR MAGUBANE No, he was not in prison. MR BERGER So he was brought to the prison to act as an interpreter for the taking of this statement? MR MAGUBANE Yes, he came with the lawyer. MR BERGER Were there any other of your co-applicants present when you made this statement? MR MAGUBANE No, in the prison which I am, I am the only one among the applicants. MR BERGER At the time when Mr Nana Tshabangu acted as an interpreter, he was no longer a policemen, is that correct? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Mr Magubane, I want you to try and recall the date on which you were arrested. MR MAGUBANE Do you mean this case or another case? MR BERGER I mean in relation to this case. I'll put it in context, the massacre you know happened on the 17th of June 1992. MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Now how long after the massacre were you arrested? MR MAGUBANE It was on the same month but I think it was somewhere at the end of the month. If it is not at the end of the month, it was at the beginning of July the same year. MR BERGER So end June, beginning July 1992? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I think so. MR BERGER So would it be correct then to say that you remained in the hostel for about two or three weeks after the massacre before you were arrested? MR MAGUBANE No. MR BERGER Well you see, from the 17th of June until the end of June, beginning of July is about two or three weeks. So would that be the period during which you remained at kwaMadala before you were arrested? MR MAGUBANE I stayed in KwaMadala for a long time. After Boipatong massacre I stayed at KwaMadala hostel for a long time. I don't think it will be two weeks or three weeks. CHAIRPERSON No, Mr Magubane, you have estimated that you think you were arrested either towards the end of June or the beginning of July. Now what counsel is putting to you is that it means you probably remained at the hostel from the day after the incident until the day when you were arrested, and that period is approximately three weeks. MR MAGUBANE That is not so. CHAIRPERSON Did you go back to the hostel, did you remain at the hostel after the massacre? MR MAGUBANE I stayed in the hostel before the massacre. CHAIRPERSON We all know, you've told us that you've always remained at the hostel before the massacre. MR MAGUBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON We're talking about the period after the massacre, do you understand that? MR MAGUBANE Yes. I was always in the hostel after the massacre, after the massacre on the 17th of June. The 18th and 19th I was in KwaMadala hostel until I was arrested. CHAIRPERSON What counsel is putting to you is; if you estimate that you were arrested towards the end of June and the beginning of July, that period is approximately three weeks. In other words, you remained in the hostel after the massacre for about three weeks before you were arrested. MR MAGUBANE If you would say I stayed weeks, it is a short period or weeks are a short period to estimate. It might be a month. ...(no English translation) CHAIRPERSON We didn't get the interpretation. INTERPRETER I think the applicant's struggling to understand what the question is, he's going back to months and years, not weeks. CHAIRPERSON We know that before the attack on Boipatong you were staying at the hostel. MR MAGUBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON After the attack you returned to the hostel. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I did these things whilst I was still in the hostel. CHAIRPERSON You went, you attacked, you returned to the hostel. MR MAGUBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Right. You remained at the hostel until you were arrested. MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you say you were arrested probably towards the end of June or the beginning of July. MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON All that counsel is saying to you, he's simply saying the period from the day of the massacre to the day when you were arrested is approximately three weeks. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I know understand. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. I'll ask my learned friend during the adjournment, perhaps he can give me certain dates for the applicants and it might make things a bit shorter. But I'll just ask you this question, Mr Magubane. Were you arrested on your own or were you arrested with all the applicants? This is now end of June/beginning July 1992. MR MAGUBANE I was arrested with others. We were many when we were arrested. MR BERGER Would that include all your co-applicants, as well as many of the others who were accused? MR MAGUBANE Yes, some of the applicants I was arrested with them. We were arrested in groups, not at the same time. MR BERGER Were there people who were arrested before you were arrested, were there groups who were arrested before your group was arrested? MR MAGUBANE I'm the first one to be arrested. MR BERGER Now during that three week period, I want to ask you some questions about that, would I be correct to say that during that period there was a very strong police presence at the hostel? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER And it was very difficult to leave the hostel, in fact you couldn't leave the hostel without permission, am I right? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And you couldn't enter the hostel without permission either, am I right? MR MAGUBANE You would enter but you would not leave. They would give permission to a person who enters, not the one who leaves. MR BERGER Yes, in order for someone to enter the hostel during that three week period, they had to get permission from the police to enter, would that be correct? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And am I correct also that Iscor set up strict controls around the hostel during that three week period? MR MAGUBANE I would agree with you that Iscor - you would not do whatever you wanted to do because the police were there and Iscor again contributed to that strict control. MR BERGER And so both the police and Iscor, during that period, had strict controls in place and monitored who was entering and who was leaving the hostel, would I be right? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER Now after you were arrested, where were you taken to? MR MAGUBANE I was taken to Vereeniging Police Station. MR BERGER And from there, were you taken to a prison? MR MAGUBANE They said they were taking us to Sasol(?) Prison, then they didn't get access, then they took me to Sun City Prison. That is Soweto Prison which is usually called Sun City. MR BERGER And how long were you at Sun City? MR MAGUBANE I did not finish a month there. I would estimate that period to be plus-minus two weeks. MR BERGER And were you then released? MR MAGUBANE I was transferred to John Vorster Square. MR BERGER From John Vorster Square, where did you go? MR MAGUBANE I was taken to Germiston or another police station where I was tortured. I don't remember as to whether it is Germiston or what police station it was. MR BERGER How long were you kept in custody for? Were you kept in custody right until your trial? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was in John Vorster Square. They would pick me up early in the morning and then they would return me after until we were taken to Pretoria. MR BERGER So do I understand you correctly, that after your arrest in 1992, you were never released on bail pending your trial? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was released on bail. I don't remember which year but I was given bail when I was in Pretoria. MR BERGER Was this before the trial, that you got bail? MR MAGUBANE Yes. ...(no English translation) CHAIRPERSON We didn't get that interpretation. MR MAGUBANE I attended the case whilst on bail. MR BERGER You can't remember the date when you got bail, or even the month? MR MAGUBANE No, I don't remember, I've forgotten. MR BERGER Was it in 1992 or 1993 or 1994? MR MAGUBANE I think it is in 1992. MR BERGER And then where did you go once you got bail? MR MAGUBANE I returned to KwaMadala hostel. MR BERGER And did you stay at KwaMadala hostel throughout the trial? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER I have a note here, Mr Magubane, which says that you met Sergeant Peens after Getisi was killed, you met Peens for the first time after Getisi was killed. Is my note right? MR MAGUBANE I said I met Peens. On the day when Getisi was killed I was arrested with him and on that night he was killed. Getisi found me found me at the investigative unit offices. I was not able to discuss anything with him. That is the first time I knew Peens. MR BERGER What were you arrested for? MR MAGUBANE We were arrested under Article 50. We were taken to the cells not knowing what we were arrested for. We stayed there for days. MR BERGER Were you arrested together with Getisi or did you just meet him at the police station? MR MAGUBANE I was arrested with his mother and a certain boy called Taki. We were arrested in KwaMadala hostel. MR BERGER That's Darkie Chonco? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER You were taken to the police station, would that be Vanderbijl Park? MR MAGUBANE Yes, we were taken to Vanderbijl Park Police Station. MR BERGER And you say Getisi was brought into the police station as well that day? MR MAGUBANE He was brought to the police station after we were arrested for two days. He arrived at the investigative unit offices. MR BERGER And it was on that day that Getisi died? MR MAGUBANE Yes, he died on that night. The day when he arrived, he died the very same night. MR BERGER Were you present when he died? MR MAGUBANE I was not present. He died at night but I don't know where he was killed. MR BERGER And did you meet Peens for the first time - did you see Peens for the first time at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I saw him for the first time in that office. MR BERGER I have a note which reads, from your earlier evidence yesterday, that Peens took you from your room in the hostel. MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER So then you couldn't have met him for the first time in the office at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station, could you? MR MAGUBANE You must understand me for I did not know the time when he took me from KwaMadala hostel in my room. I knew that it was Peens when we were at Vanderbijl Park Police Station. That is the person who took me from my room in KwaMadala hostel, then when we arrived at Vanderbijl Park, that is when I knew that is Peens because other policemen were calling his name. MR BERGER I asked you when was the first time that you saw Peens. CHAIRPERSON No, but Mr Berger, is this going to take us anywhere? The witness says when Peens came to arrest him he didn't know that this was Peens, it was only at the police station that he came to know that this is Peens. I think the record speaks for itself in that regard. We know what question you've put and we know his answer. We know the explanation. MR BERGER Chairperson, with respect, this witness' relationship with Peens is important to the issues in this case. CHAIRPERSON We understand that, but I think the point has been made. MR BERGER Chairperson, through you, could I ask for another one of these boxes? MR LAX Yes, and we need another transmitter. MR BERGER And a new headphone, this has been put together with sticky tape. CHAIRPERSON Mr Magubane, when you speak would you please give the interpreter time to interpret because what you are saying is being interpreted to at least two other languages. So just give him time so that he can interpret everything that you say. Do you understand that? Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. How many times have you been arrested? I know that you were arrested in June/July 1992 after the massacre, you say you were arrested a day or two before Victor Keswa was killed, and kept at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station. Were you arrested at any other times? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was arrested about other things, for other things. MR BERGER I'm not talking about before 1992, I'm talking about after the massacre. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was many times, many times. MR BERGER After this occasion with the arrest two days before the death of Mr Victor Keswa, were you arrested again? MR MAGUBANE I was arrested for robbing a policeman in town. MR BERGER You are presently in jail, we know that, what I want to ask you is, how long have you been in custody? I don't know if you understand the question but, you've been arrested on a number of occasions, I want to know, from the last time that you were arrested, when was that and how long have you been in custody? MR MAGUBANE You mean about political cases or do you mean about robbery and theft? I was arrested for theft and robbery many times. MR BERGER You got arrested, then you got released, you got arrested, then you got released? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER But you're now permanently in jail? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER How long have you been there? MR MAGUBANE I've enjoyed two Xmas' in jail, that is two years. MR BERGER So the last time that you were detained was in 1996? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER When you were introduced or when you found out that the policeman who had taken you from your room in the hostel was Sergeant Peens, you say that he asked you lots of questions about Getisi. MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER And he promised you money and he promised you a house. MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER If you gave evidence against Getisi. MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER What made you remember that this is Sergeant Peens? MR MAGUBANE That is the one who wanted me to help him so that Getisi would be convicted or do his work which he wanted me to do. I would not forget that kind of a person because he was doing this which were unusual. MR BERGER The policeman? MR MAGUBANE Yes, the things which he was saying to me were unusual. I will not forget him. MR BERGER Now Getisi died on the 10th of July 1993, so I take it the records will show that you were arrested on or about the 8th of July 1993, am I right, Mr Magubane? MR MAGUBANE Yes, they would show. MR BERGER And you were detained at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station. MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER Isn't it so that you knew Sergeant Peens long before July 1993 and you knew Sergeant Peens already in June of 1992? MR MAGUBANE No, that is not true, that is not true. MR BERGER And isn't is so that you in fact were in a caspir with Sergeant Peens, moving into Boipatong on the night of the 17th of June 1992? MR MAGUBANE That is not true. MR BERGER Do you say that you don't know Shaka and you don't know Rooikop? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER Two policemen? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER But you do know Gatchene, am I right? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I know Gatchene. MR BERGER And you do know Themba Kubeka. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER And Lucky Stekenyao. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER And Sipho Lukhozi. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER And Sipho Buthelezi. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER And Makuka. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER And Tsamo. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER Who is Tsamo? MR MAGUBANE He's not present here and he was not being, he was one of our friends who came from the township and he was not an accused in this case. MR BERGER What is his name? MR MAGUBANE I don't know his full names, I only know Tsamo. MR BERGER But he lived in KwaMadala hostel. MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Is he still alive? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER And you know Makeze. MR MAGUBANE Do you mean Mkhize? MR BERGER Makeze. MR MAGUBANE I don't know Makeze, I know Mkhize. MR BERGER And Dondo. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER And all the people that I've mentioned, except for Makeze were present and participated in the attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992, am I right? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct, except Makeze, whom I do not know. MR BERGER Is it correct, Mr Kubeka, Mr Magubane, I beg your pardon, that after your parents' house in Sharpeville was burnt, they moved to Boipatong and they were living in Boipatong in June of 1992? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And is it also correct that on the night of the massacre your parents were living in Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE Yes. MR BERGER And that they continued to live in Boipatong after the massacre? MR MAGUBANE Even now they are still in Boipatong. MR BERGER Even now. MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Are they living in the same house that they lived in when they moved to Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE I would not know as to whether they're still at the same place because they are living in the informal settlement, but I know that they are still in Boipatong, but I don't know as to whether it is the same yard or the same place. MR BERGER When you say the informal settlement, are you saying that they live in the Slovo Park section of Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE They are staying in Sondela. I don't know as to whether it's Chris Hani or what but we know it as Sondela. MR BERGER Do you know what street they were living in? MR MAGUBANE No, because it's an informal settlement the streets don't have names. MR BERGER Were you not afraid that your parents could be killed during the attack on Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was afraid that my parents would be dead but under the circumstances there was nothing I could do because they dissociated themselves from me. Even if I would be killed before them or if, they wouldn't do anything. I didn't have a choice or be afraid when we were going to kill people, that they will be killed also. MR BERGER So would I be correct to say that you recognised the possibility before the attack that your parents might get killed in the attack but you carried on with the attack regardless? MR MAGUBANE On that day I did not concentrate or I didn't think as to whether they would be killed or not. The situation was tense and I was looking what would happen to me if I don't take part. MR BERGER But you wanted to take part in the attack, didn't you? MR MAGUBANE I took part in the attack at Boipatong. If my parents were killed I could have taken part in their killing. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you would have taken part in the killing of your parents? MR MAGUBANE Yes, as I took part in the general attack of Boipatong, which means if they were killed I would also be responsible because I also took part in the general attack. MR BERGER And when ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Sorry, Mr Berger, just on this aspect. Do you know why your parents' house was burnt down? MR MAGUBANE I received a message that my parents' house was burnt because I was a member of the IFP. That is why - because they claimed that people who killed people in that area in Sharpeville, it was alleged that they were people from KwaMadala hostel. Then from there the people in Sharpeville went to burn my parents' house. ADV SIGODI At the time that your parents' house was burnt, where were you staying? MR MAGUBANE I was at KwaMadala hostel at that time. ADV SIGODI Because I thought from your evidence you said you went to stay in KwaMadala because your parents' house was burnt down. Now are you telling us that when it was burnt down you were already staying at KwaMadala? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was in KwaMadala hostel. My parents' house was burnt whilst I was in prison because it was alleged that I killed people in Sharpeville. Then at that time, in 1991, my parents' house was burnt. I was in KwaMadala hostel at that time. ADV SIGODI And your parents were not politically active, were they? MR MAGUBANE No, they didn't play a role in politics. ADV SIGODI Thank you. MR BERGER You told the Committee yesterday that you didn't care who you killed because you wanted to kill everyone, is that right? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And so you shot at everybody, you shot at men, women and children. MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER Would it be correct to say that you wanted to kill everybody living in Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE If I had that power I would do so. MR BERGER And would you say that that was the intention, not only of yourself, but of all the people who attacked Boipatong with you? That was the desire. MR MAGUBANE I believe that all the people who went to Boipatong went there to kill, but I would not say what the individual intentions were. I believe that all the people who went there went there to kill because our intention was to go there and kill. MR BERGER Your intention was to go there and kill everybody in Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE If it was possible for me to kill all the people in Boipatong I would do so, but the people that I wanted to kill were these boys who belonged to the SDUs. But I was happy that other people were killed as well, but if I had the power I would kill all the people. MR BERGER Why? MR MAGUBANE Because those people also wanted to kill my parents, so for that reason they ended up burning my parents' house and my parents were innocent, they didn't know anything about politics. They were not involved in politics. So I left them and I went to KwaMadala hostel because I realised that if I continue living with them, my parents would be killed. So they went there to kill my parents, so what I did is what they wanted to do to my parents. MR BERGER My question to you is, why did you want to and why did you kill the women and children and old people? MR MAGUBANE Because they also - they killed my father and they burnt my parents' home. So in other words, when I went there I went there for revenge. MR LAX Sorry we didn't hear the translation of the first part of that answer, it was cut off slightly. Would you just repeat it please, Mr Interpreter? MR MAGUBANE I went there to kill because they killed my parents, they killed my father and that is the reason I went there. So the purpose of me going there was to revenge. MR BERGER But your father was living in Boipatong. MR MAGUBANE Yes, he moved from Sharpeville to Boipatong. When he died he was living at Boipatong. MR BERGER Mr Magubane, I don't understand you at all. You told the Committee that your parents lived in Boipatong at the time of the attack, they are still living in Boipatong today, you told the Committee that your father was killed, can you explain that? MR MAGUBANE I didn't say that my father was killed, what I said is that my father died while he was living in Boipatong. So the intention of going there to burn my parents' house was to kill my parents, that is why I did what I did. If somebody did not help my father, he would have been killed. MR BERGER You've just told the Committee that your father was killed, are you now saying your father wasn't killed? MR MAGUBANE I did not say my father was killed, maybe you didn't hear me correctly. They burnt the house and he was inside that house. ADV SIGODI Sorry, when did your father die? MR MAGUBANE He died around 1992. ADV SIGODI How did he die? MR MAGUBANE He was ill. I was told that he was very ill but I did not go there to see him. I only learnt after the elections that my father was ill and as a result he died. ADV SIGODI He died before the massacre or after the massacre? MR MAGUBANE I think he died after the massacre because my younger brother died before my father, so my father died after my elder(sic) brother died. MR BERGER And when did your brother die? MR MAGUBANE That is when the Boipatong people were buried. He also died during that massacre. MR BERGER Your brother was killed during the massacre of the 17th of June 1992? MR MAGUBANE When the people were killed in Boipatong who were buried, he died on the same day. CHAIRPERSON I don't understand the answer. Was your brother killed during the attack? MR MAGUBANE Not during the massacre. The people who were killed on the 17th, when they were buried by brother died on the same day of the burial of the people who died during the massacre. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SIGODI Sorry, can you just clarify. Did he die as a result of being attacked during the massacre or did he die of something else, your brother? MR MAGUBANE He was attacked. ADV SIGODI During the massacre? MR MAGUBANE No, he was attacked by the people who attended the funeral. The ANC people who attended the Boipatong funeral service attacked him because he was chased out of the stadium and he died at Sondela. MR BERGER What was your brother's name? MR MAGUBANE His name is Stanley Maganga. MR BERGER And it was after that that your father died? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER So which of your parents are still living in Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE That is my mother and my sister, they are still living at Boipatong and my stepfather. MR BERGER I want to come back to the question of why you killed children. MR MAGUBANE I've already explained that those people who burnt my parents' house, even if they found children in that house they would have killed them as well. The reason that made me to kill them, children, mothers and everybody is because I wanted to revenge. Those people wanted to kill me, including my parents. MR BERGER So your motive for killing all the people that you killed was to take revenge for the burning of your parents' house? MR MAGUBANE The situation was very tense then because we were hated because it was alleged we were members of the IFP, that is why I wanted to kill everybody. MR BERGER But your motive in killing everybody or in trying to kill everybody, was to take revenge for the burning of your parents' house? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER And it wasn't just you who was killing everybody or wanted to kill everybody. I want to refer you to your statement on page 91 which you confirmed yesterday. Towards the bottom of the page you say "We were actually looking for the SDUs and the comrades, however the group including me proceeded to attack everyone and everything." MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Who was in this group? MR MAGUBANE Mkhize was an Induna in this group. We were so many, I cannot remember all the people who were in my group. MR BERGER Besides Mkhize, who else was in your group? MR MAGUBANE That is the other boy from Zone 13. I forget his name. He was the one who had a 7.65. That is the only one that I remember because he was always next to me. MR BERGER Was that Doctor? MR MAGUBANE No, it's not Doctor, it's Smith. MR BERGER Yes. You say Smith, Sipho Buthelezi, Thomas Sipho Lukhozi, Themba Mabote and Mkhize, you saw them firing shots? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER Now were all of those people that I've mentioned part of this group that you referred to which proceeded to attack everyone and everything? MR MAGUBANE Yes, they were all part of this group. MR BERGER And that was when women and children and old people were being shot and hacked and stabbed and killed? MR MAGUBANE Yes, it happened that day because that is the only massacre, there was never another massacre. So all those people were killed during that day. MR BERGER You had a number of people sharing a room with you at the hostel, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER Were they also part of the attack? MR MAGUBANE That's correct, they were part of the attack. MR BERGER And who were they? MR MAGUBANE It was Lucky, Makuka, Dondo, Timothy Mazibuko, but he used to two rooms. He used to live with us and also with Nana, and Zamu as well. MR BERGER You all shared a room? MR MAGUBANE That is correct, we used the same room. MR BERGER What about Kleintjie? MR MAGUBANE No, he lived in another room, in another flat. MR BERGER And Smo? MR MAGUBANE He also stayed at another flat. MR BERGER Skalo? MR MAGUBANE Yes, Skalo lived with Kleintjie as well. MR BERGER Gazaza? MR MAGUBANE And Gazaza as well lived with Kleintjie. MR BERGER Bobo? MR MAGUBANE Yes, Bobo lived with Kleintjie as well. MR BERGER Tapelo? MR MAGUBANE And Tapelo as well was there. MR BERGER And Nteba? MR MAGUBANE Yes, he lived with us. I forgot to count him. MR BERGER You see, you were asked a question at the criminal trial, page 3007 "Who stayed with you at that time ..." That's the time of the attack. "... stayed with you in your room?" Which is room number 5. And your answer was: "It was Kleintjie, Smo, Skalo, Gazaza, Bobo, Tapelo, Nteba. These are all the people who lived together with me." Besides Nteba, the rest of the names you mentioned there was a lie? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was lying then because I wanted to win the case. I never stayed with those people. MR BERGER Did those people participate in the attack? MR MAGUBANE Yes, all of them except Bobo. I never saw Bobo during the attack. MR BERGER What room did they all live in? MR MAGUBANE They all lived in room number 5. MR BERGER And you lived in another room? MR MAGUBANE I stayed at Zone 2. MR BERGER Zone 2, KwaMadala? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER With all the people that you mentioned: Dondo, Lucky and Mazibuko? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. I said that Mazibuko also had another room except the one we lived together in. MR BERGER Yes, you said he also stayed with Nana Tshabangu. MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER And what room did Andries Nosenga live in when he came to the hostel? MR MAGUBANE He used to live in room number 5. He never stayed at the Zone 2 area. MR BERGER Did he ever come to the Zone 2 area? MR MAGUBANE He used to come because when we were sitting under the trees, when we were washing the cars, he would come and visit us and sit with us. MR BERGER He was your friend? MR MAGUBANE No, he was not my friend. MR BERGER He used to come and sit with you and the other men from your room under the tree, chat. MR MAGUBANE I will answer this way. We used to live there together, we didn't care where you lived, in which room you stayed. So we used to chat together at one place. MR BERGER But there was no ill-feeling between him and you and any of the people in your room? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Why did you steal a blanket and a sound system from Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE The place where we lived we had nothing. I used to sleep on the bricks. We didn't have blankets. We had very small blankets. So when I used to sleep always me feet will be outside. MR BERGER So the living conditions of the residents at KwaMadala were bad? MR MAGUBANE That's correct, they were bad. MR BERGER Not just for you but for all the residents of the hostel? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I agree with you when you say that. MR BERGER And in Boipatong there were television sets, sound systems, blankets, food, money, and all of that was stolen during the massacre and taken back to the hostel to improve the living conditions of the residents of KwaMadala, would that be fair? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Now those goods were burnt the following day. MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER Why? MR MAGUBANE We heard that the police were coming and they will get evidence, so it was decided that those goods should be burnt. MR BERGER Who decided that? MR MAGUBANE Well I don't know who took that decision but the person that I remember telling us to burn those goods was Richard Dlamini. MR BERGER Did he come to your room to say you must bring your goods or bring the loot to the rubbish bin, we're going to burn it? MR MAGUBANE Yes, he went from room to room. If he knew that you had property from Boipatong, he would tell you to take it out because the police were coming. So we took all the goods and we burnt them. MR BERGER And you didn't argue with him because you were afraid if the police come they might see that you've got some property? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER Weren't you afraid of being arrested when you left the hostel to go and attack Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE I did that because I knew that it would happen during the night and if the people come to arrest me I will fight back and shoot at them. MR BERGER Were you or were you not afraid that you would be arrested? MR MAGUBANE No, I was not afraid that I would be arrested. MR BERGER And what about the army, you knew that the army patrolled the area around the hostel, weren't you afraid that the soldiers might shoot you or arrest you? MR MAGUBANE Those are the people that I even didn't think about. I didn't even think about them. The only people that I thought about were the police. I didn't think about the soldiers at all. MR BERGER And do you remember when you came out of Boipatong, you all congregated in the veld before you crossed over the road? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I remember when we were leaving Boipatong, I remember that. MR BERGER And you were still carrying your sound system, probably in the blanket, am I right? MR MAGUBANE No, I put the blanket on my shoulder and in my hands I had the radio. When we gathered there at the open veld I put the sound system on the ground and that is where I wrapped it with a blanket. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, I'm sorry to interrupt you. We intend taking a break at about quarter past 10, so if it is convenient at about that time, let us know. Thank you. MR BERGER After you put the sound system into the blanket you then picked it up and you moved towards KwaMadala hostel? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER And many of your co-attackers were also carrying stuff, television sets, food, blankets, video recorders, all sorts of things, other people were also carrying, am I right? MR MAGUBANE Well I would not say all of them because when I say all of them, that would mean everybody who left KwaMadala had a property, but many of them had property with them but others did not. MR BERGER Yes. And when you saw the army stationed there, you say it was at the corner by the garage, you didn't think to drop your loot and run quickly to KwaMadala, did you? MR MAGUBANE I didn't think about that because I knew that if I leave it there, this is what I wanted, I cannot leave it there. So I wanted them to arrest me with the property that I wanted. I wanted to cross the road with that property. MR BERGER And not only you but many of your co-attackers also continued carrying the goods despite the presence of the army about 30 metres away, am I right? MR MAGUBANE When I was at Court I was told that other property was found there at the open veld, so there are other people who left their property there and that is what led to the police to realise that the people who attacked at Boipatong went to KwaMadala. So other people left their property at the open veld. MR BERGER And many, many didn't, with the result that the property landed up in KwaMadala and had to be burnt the following day. MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is correct, the property that ended up at KwaMadala hostel was more than the property that was left at the open veld. MR BERGER You didn't fear that the army would arrest you, did you? MR MAGUBANE I was not afraid that the soldiers would arrest me because most of use were armed, so we were going to fight back and we knew that they'd would run away. MR BERGER But they made no attempt to approach you, the army, nor did they run away, correct? MR MAGUBANE I cannot say that they ran away because they just moved up. I was told after that they tried to corner us from the front. I learnt about that in Court. So whether they took any initiatives to arrest us, I don't know. MR BERGER You are not aware of any initiatives taken by the soldiers to arrest you, am I right? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER Am I correct - well, I'd rather put it to you that the reason that you were not afraid of the soldiers is because you were aware that the police were assisting you in Boipatong and you knew that the authorities were not going to stop you on your way back into the hostel, isn't that right? MR DA SILVA I object to the question, Mr Chairman, there's no link that even if the police were aware that the army would have been aware of this, I submit with respect, that this question is unfounded. There is no evidence before this Committee at this stage that there was a collusion between the army and the attackers. The only evidence before, in the statement of Mr Nosenga is that there might have been a possible link between the police and the attackers. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Chairperson, we have a situation where a large number, hundreds of armed men are moving from Boipatong, this is common cause, from Boipatong to KwaMadala and this witness and several witnesses before him have confirmed that the army made no attempt whatsoever to stop them. Prima facie, that speaks of collusion, I submit. MR DA SILVA With respect, no, Mr Chairperson. The only evidence before this Committee is a single military vehicle, on the probabilities. The fact that they at that stage did not do something outwardly doesn't mean that there's collusion, with respect. It's quite clear one single vehicle compared to 300 attackers, what can a single vehicle do? CHAIRPERSON I think it's a matter for argument. The situation we have here is that there is a large group of individuals who on the evidence we've had so far, were carrying items and were ...(indistinct), they are seen by the army. On the evidence that we've heard there is nothing that the army does. So what has been put to this witness is the simple proposition that it is because of a collusion, the army was helping them. It is entirely up to the witness, either to admit or deny. I think there is sufficient factual basis to test the proposition against the witness. In those circumstances the question will be allowed. MR BERGER Mr Magubane? CHAIRPERSON Did you understand the question, Mr Magubane? MR MAGUBANE May you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON You have told us that you're not afraid of the army. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I was not afraid because I knew that if they tried to come to us I would fight back and shoot at them. CHAIRPERSON What counsel is putting to you is that you were not afraid of the army, not for the reason that you've just stated, namely you were going to fight it, but because the army and the police were helping you during this massacre and therefore they would not arrest you and that is why you were not afraid of them. Is that the proposition you're wanting to put, Mr Berger? MR BERGER It is, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do you understand what I've just put to you? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON What is your answer? MR MAGUBANE No, that is not so. MR BERGER Chairperson, perhaps we could take the adjournment now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. We will take an adjournment now and come back at twenty to eleven. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Magubane, may I remind you that you are still under oath. RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (Continued) Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Magubane, you will recall that it's been put to you that in the Caspir in which you were moving towards Boipatong there were certain policemen, including Mr Peens and a policeman known as Rooikop. Now I'm going to ask - you say you don't know Rooikop? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER I'm going to ask Mr Peens and the policeman known as Rooikop, who are here today, to come forward and I'm going to ask you if you can identify Mr Peens and I'm going to ask you if you don't know who the other man is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well, Mr Berger, he knows Mr Peens. There is no issue about Mr Peens, he knows Mr Peens. The only person that he says he didn't know is the person known as Shaka and the person known as Rooikop. MR BERGER Apparently I was mistaken, Shaka is not here but Rooikop is here. In that event I'll ask only Rooikop to come forward and ask you, Mr Magubane, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Magubane, do you understand the context in which counsel is asking you to identify, to tell us whether the person that you are going to be shown now you know? Do you understand that? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BOTHA As you please, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Botha, yes? MR BOTHA I've received instructions now also to appear on behalf of Mr Greeff, also known as Rooikop. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Will you just spell the surname of Mr Greeff for the record please. MR BOTHA G-R-E-E-F-F. His first name is Hardus. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Is that gentleman here? Who of you gentlemen is Mr Greeff? Are you also known as Rooikop? You are Mr Greeff? MR GREEFF That is right. Are you also known as Rooikop? MR GREEFF That is right. MR BERGER Mr Magubane, do you recognise this gentleman with the white hair who is known as Rooikop, have you see him before? MR MAGUBANE I saw this white man, I saw him at the offices of the investigation unit. He was investigating the violence. That is the first time that I met him. I was in the van that he was driving. He was driving me to their offices. MR BERGER Chairperson, I think that - unless the Committee wishes, Mr Greeff and Mr Peens can be seated now, it's not necessary for them to ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Greeff, do you confirm that Advocate Botha is your legal representative in these proceedings? MR GREEFF That's right. CHAIRPERSON Let me just take this opportunity because Mr Peens is also here. The gentleman next to you, would he move over to the microphone please. Are you Mr Peens? MR PEENS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What are you full names, Sir? MR PEENS Gerhardus Dirk. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR PEENS Peens. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm that Advocate Botha is your legal representative in these proceedings? MR PEENS That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you gentlemen, you may be seated. Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Berger. CHAIRPERSON Did you want to say anything, Mr ... MR BOTHA Yes, Mr Chairperson, may I be excused to take my place there at the back? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BOTHA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Botha, to the extent that we don't see your face, we can easily forget that you are here. If there is anything that you'd like to put to the witnesses, would you let us know? MR BOTHA I will indeed, thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON As long as you are comfortable wherever you are. MR BOTHA Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Magubane, when we talk about Rooikop, we are speaking about that man, Mr Greeff, do you accept that? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER Now your evidence is that neither Mr Peens nor Mr Greeff were in Boipatong that night, is that correct? MR MAGUBANE That is correct. MR BERGER If they had been in Boipatong, or let me put it this way, if there had been police in Boipatong during the attack, could you have missed them? MR MAGUBANE If police were there, I would have recognised them. Although I would not know their names but I would have recognised them. MR BERGER And if policemen were in Boipatong in a Caspir, you would definitely have known that, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That's correct, if police were there with us with a Caspir in Boipatong, I would have known that. MR BERGER And is it your evidence that nobody has ever told you, and when I say "nobody" I mean not one of your co-attackers or your co-applicants or your co-accused or anybody at KwaMadala, nobody has mentioned to you that the police were in Boipatong on the night of the attack? MR MAGUBANE There's no person who would have told me that. If somebody tried to tell me that I would have disagreed with him, I would have told him that he is lying. MR BERGER And in particular, nobody has said to you that Mr Peens or Mr Greeff were in a Caspir in Boipatong on the night of the attack? MR MAGUBANE There's no-one who ever said that to me. MR BERGER When did you see Mr Greeff, Rooikop, for the first time? MR MAGUBANE That is when he was arresting me under regulations Act. MR BERGER Is that the Regulation 3 that you referred to? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is Regulation 3. MR BERGER When you talk about Regulation 3, are you referring to State of Emergency Regulations? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER And when was that, that Rooikop arrested you? MR MAGUBANE It was around 1994. I don't remember well but we had been in prison for about a month. That is when I was now arrested for this Boipatong massacre. I think it was in 1994. MR BERGER I think your years are out but don't worry about that, because you also told the Committee that Sergeant Peens also arrested you in terms of Regulation 3, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER Was that the same arrest, when Sergeant Peens arrested you? Did he arrest you together with Rooikop? MR MAGUBANE I will not say that they were together because there were many police at KwaMadala, others were outside the hostel, but the person who pointed me and who belonged to the Riot Unit, was Peens. MR BERGER And was Rooikop also with the police on that day? MR MAGUBANE Well I would not say that he was present when I was arrested that day because I did not see him. There were many police around. It was at night, I wouldn't be able to see him. MR BERGER But when you got taken to the Vanderbijl Park Police Station, you saw Peens there and you saw Rooikop there? In other words, you saw them working together, would that be fair? MR MAGUBANE I was taken by Rooikop from the police station. MR BERGER Would it be fair to say that you saw Sergeant Peens and Rooikop working together? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I would agree with you because it happened the same day. The only difference was just hours. MR BERGER And you also said that Rooikop used to work together with another policeman called Barnard. MR MAGUBANE That was during the time I was still young. They used to beat us, Rooikop, during those days. Well I don't know whether he's the one who investigated the housebreakings but if it was him he should be old by now. MR BERGER Oh, I see, so you were talking about things that happened many years ago? MR MAGUBANE The Rooikop that I'm referring to was working with Barnard. It as during the time I was still young and I didn't know anything about the comrades them. MR BERGER So that wasn't the Rooikop that you saw today? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I would say so because this one is till young. MR BERGER You've told the Committee that, well you denied that there were any whites who were part of the attackers, and then you said that "Even at our meeting after we returned, there were no whites." Which meeting were you referring to? MR MAGUBANE We never met that day, that happened when we were told that they are attacking us. During that day of the massacre I never attended any meeting because I went to my room. MR BERGER The words which I wrote down as coming from you were: you were asked "Were whites part of the attackers?" You said: "No." And then you said: "Even at our meeting after we returned." I'm only asking you what meeting you are referring to. MR MAGUBANE I've already explained that when we came back from Boipatong I went straight to my room and then I cleaned my gun. I don't know anything about the meeting that day. If I said that, maybe I must have made a mistake. MR BERGER Which meetings did you attend before the massacre, in relation to the attack on Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE There has never been a meeting that I attended where the massacre issue was discussed. The only meeting that I attended - I heard that we were going to attack but they never specified where are we going to attack. They never specified that we were going to attack Boipatong. That's the only meeting that I attended. MR BERGER When was that meeting? MR MAGUBANE I think it can be a week or two weeks before the attack. MR BERGER So you never attended any meeting where an attack on Boipatong was discussed? MR MAGUBANE No, I did not. MR BERGER Now does that mean that there were some meetings that you did not attend, and it might have been said at those meetings that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong, or does it mean that you attended all the meetings but that an attack on Boipatong was never discussed? Do you understand the difference? MR MAGUBANE I will explain it this way. I was attending the meetings only when I'm present at the hostel but when I'm in town I would not attend those meetings. If any meeting was held while I was around the hostel, I would attend that meeting but in all the meetings that I've attended, I've never heard a discussion about the attack on Boipatong. MR BERGER On the Sunday before the massacre, were you at the hostel? MR MAGUBANE I don't remember whether I attended a meeting during that day, on Sunday. MR BERGER No, that wasn't the question, the question is, on that day were you at the hostel? MR MAGUBANE I can say I was at the hostel because I would not have gone to the town on Sunday, so I think I was around the hostel. MR BERGER And if there had been a meeting on that Sunday, you would have attended it? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER And if Themba Khosa had spoken at that meeting, you would have heard him? MR MAGUBANE I would have heard about it because I would have attended that meeting if he was there. MR BERGER And even if you hadn't attended that meeting, somebody would have said to you; by the Themba Khosa was here today, talking about the attacks on us, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That's correct, you are right. MR BERGER But you never heard any such talk and you never saw or heard Themba Khosa? MR MAGUBANE That's correct. MR BERGER You see, Mr Magubane, that again you are not telling the truth because your own co-applicants, Mr Victor Mthembu, has told us about that very meeting where Themba Khosa addressed the hostel residents. You were at that meeting, I put it to you, you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Would that be the meeting on Sunday? MR MAGUBANE I've already explained that if I attended that meeting, I would say so. I know nothing about that meeting which was attended by Themba Khosa. If there was a meeting on that Sunday, if I was present then Themba Khosa was not there. MR BERGER Well we know you were at the hostel for the whole day on that Sunday. MR MAGUBANE I will agree with you that I was at the hostel on that Sunday. MR BERGER The meeting that you attended about a week before the attack, what instruction was given at that meeting? MR MAGUBANE We were told that we are going to attack but we were not told about the dates and we were not told about the place that we are going to attack. So because we were angry, we wanted them to tell us, because those people who were attacking us, they never waited for a long time. Whenever they catch you, they kill you at the same time, so we wanted to attack immediately. MR BERGER And when you talk about the people catching you, you're talking about the people from Boipatong catching you and killing you? MR MAGUBANE I'm referring to the members of the ANC in the Vaal Triangle, including Boipatong. MR BERGER When last, or let me ask you this, did you see Vanana Zulu in Boipatong on the night of the attack? MR MAGUBANE No, I did not. MR BERGER When last did you see him before the attack? MR MAGUBANE The last time I saw him was when he was leaving and was going home. MR BERGER Did you see him leaving? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I did. MR BERGER And when was that, when was he going home? MR MAGUBANE I don't remember the day but if I'm not mistaken it was on a Friday because the transport used to collect them every Friday. MR BERGER Would that be the Friday before the attack? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that was before the attack. MR BERGER The attack was on a Wednesday, so would that have been the Friday just before that Wednesday? MR MAGUBANE I think that is the same Friday or a week before that Friday before the attack. MR BERGER If Prince Vanana Zulu had been in Boipatong on the night of the attack, you would have seen him, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That's correct, we would have recognised him because he's a leader of the hostel, we all depend on him. MR BERGER What he says in the hostel, or what he said in the hostel was law, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That is correct, we followed everything that he said. MR BERGER When you got into Boipatong, is it correct that you - well, let me ask you this - never mind. What happened to your gun, the one that you used in Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE It was lost. MR BERGER Did the police get your gun? MR MAGUBANE Well I don't know whether they got hold of that gun because when I went to look for it, my weapon was not there. MR BERGER When did Prince Vanana Zulu return to the hostel? MR MAGUBANE He came back after the Boipatong massacre. MR BERGER How long after? MR MAGUBANE It could not be weeks but days after the massacre, it can be about four days, three to four days after the massacre. MR BERGER Did you tell him that you had participated in the massacre. MR MAGUBANE I did not. MR BERGER Did he know that the residents of KwaMadala were responsible for the massacre? MR MAGUBANE He did not know, he only heard the rumour. MR BERGER Why did you not tell him, why did nobody tell him? MR MAGUBANE He's a well respected person. There are people who talk to me, not everybody. We do sometimes talk to him but we cannot sit down with him and talk to him about issues because of he was a respected person. MR BERGER You say in your statement that Mr Themba Khosa did not know that you stole property from Boipatong. Do you remember that he came to the hostel on the day after the attack, on the 18th? MR MAGUBANE Yes, he came after the Boipatong massacre, but I don't remember whether it was a day after or two days after but he did come to the hostel. MR BERGER He asked - did he ask whether you were responsible for the massacre, "you" plural. MR MAGUBANE Yes, he asked us about the attack and we said no. MR BERGER Why, why did you lie to Themba Khosa? MR MAGUBANE We believed that you do agree, you don't confer, you don't agree to kill them. MR BERGER But Themba Khosa was your leader, why did you keep the truth from your leader? MR MAGUBANE It is because he was not involved in what we did. MR BERGER Is it because you thought he would not have approved of what you did? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I think so. I think maybe he will not agree to what we did and that is why we did not tell him what happened. MR BERGER You deny that any woman was raped in Boipatong on the night of the attack and you say that: "We would not do that". Please tell me why, if you would shoot children and old people and women, it' not possible for any of the attackers to have raped some of the women of Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE This ntelezi, when you use ntelezi you don't have to sleep with a woman immediately after you have used that ntelezi. MR BERGER Why not? MR MAGUBANE You don't have to sleep with a woman after using ntelezi. MR BERGER Is that the law? MR MAGUBANE Yes, that is the law, that after you use it, you should not sleep with a woman that day. MR BERGER But the law doesn't say that after you've used ntelezi you can't shoot children? MR MAGUBANE Yes, the law doesn't say so. The law doesn't say that I should kill children. Anything that I want to do, I'll do it. MR BERGER Did you see Mr Thomas Mhlapo in Boipatong on the night of the attack? MR MAGUBANE I didn't see Thomas Mhlapo in Boipatong on that day. MR BERGER Do you know Thomas Mhlapo? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do, he was my co-accused. MR BERGER And Velapi Nkosi? MR MAGUBANE I don't know Velapi Nkosi, maybe I know him by other names. MR BERGER You didn't know everybody staying in KwaMadala hostel, did you? MR MAGUBANE I knew all the people who were resident at KwaMadala, but when you ask me about their real name, I would not know them. I know them by nicknames, other names that we used to call each other. MR BERGER Do you know Ernest Ntombela? MR MAGUBANE I know the surname. There is another one who was my co-accused, but I don't know whether he is Ernest, I only know the surname of Ntombela, unless you can give me one of his other names. MR BERGER Was Themba Mabote accidentally injured in Boipatong on the night of the attack? MR MAGUBANE I learnt that after - I heard the rumour that he was injured but I never saw him. I cannot even say how he was injured. MR BERGER And that he was accidentally injured by Ernest Ntombela? MR MAGUBANE I don't know who injured him. I heard a rumour that he injured himself. ADV BOSMAN Mr Berger, could you please try and confine the questions to full disclosure, and that full disclosure to material facts. I think we've got more or less the whole background of has happened, as well as to the political objective. That is all. MR BERGER Advocate Sigodi, one of the points that we intend to argue at the end of the case is that all the people, well there's a pattern, that when an applicant is asked for people who were involved in the attack, other people, we get either co-applicants or people who or dead, or people who can't be identified. ADV BOSMAN Well then put that to the applicant because the pattern would emerge from all the evidence that we have heard so far. MR BERGER Yes, and what I'm doing is, I'm going through co-accused who were acquitted. And what is emerging from the answers is that either the witness does not know them or he does not know that they were in Boipatong on the night of the attack. So it's aimed at full disclosure, is very I'm going, but I'll bring it to an end. Let me just give you the names of the people that I'm going to ask you whether any of them were in Boipatong on the night of the attack: Tandanane Ngubane, Ephraim Kasane, Jotham Zulu, Methlandodo Sibiya, Hunter Selo Ndlovu, Swelemuti Msane, Masinane Sithole, Bhekumuzi Ngema. Were any of those people in Boipatong on the night of the massacre? MR MAGUBANE Yes, they were there. MR BERGER All the people whose names I've just mentioned? MR MAGUBANE That's correct, all those people were there. MR BERGER The first time you met Andries Nosenga was at KwaMadala hostel before you were arrested for your participation in the massacre, is that correct? MR MAGUBANE No, that is not correct. MR BERGER When was the first time you met Andries Matanzima Nosenga? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, the evidence that we have here is that he met Mr Nosenga upon his release on bail. MR BERGER Finally, Mr Magubane, you told the Committee that "We did what we did in Boipatong because we knew the police were not there." Do you remember that? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. MR BERGER You knew that the police and the army patrolled outside the hostels, am I right? MR MAGUBANE That hostel is inside Iscor premises so the security belonging to Iscor used to patrol there. Soldiers will only come where there was political unrest, the same way as they were patrolling in the townships. MR BERGER The soldiers and the police, in particular the soldiers, would patrol along the road which came from the hostel, in fact along the road that you walked along, am I right? MR MAGUBANE Yes, they used that road because there is no other road they would use if they wanted to enter the hostel. So you have to go under the bridge and they will use that road and then they will turn there at the Queenspark field. MR BERGER Yes, they wouldn't come all the way to the hostel, they would use that road and then they would turn back. MR MAGUBANE That's correct, they will turn back. MR BERGER Now how did you know that the police and the army and Iscor security would be nowhere in sight as you left he hostel that night, would be nowhere in sight for an hour or two hours as you massacred the residents of Boipatong? How did you know that there would be no police, army or Iscor security present? MR MAGUBANE We knew that they would not see us but if they were present, we would see them. We knew that they would not see us. MR BERGER How did you know that they would not see you, because after all you didn't hide on your way to Boipatong, you walked along the main road to Boipatong, and when you returned to KwaMadala, you didn't hid, you walked along the main road and came back in through the main entrance. MR MAGUBANE We didn't know that they would not see us because we used the same road, the road that they use. So they would have seen us if they were there. So we didn't see any Caspir when we crossed the bridge, under the bridge. CHAIRPERSON Mr Magubane, the question is this; your behaviour that night in walking along the road into Boipatong and coming back the same road without an attempt to hide yourselves suggests that you knew that the police were either not there or they were not going to do anything to you, do you understand that? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that the police were not going to see you? MR MAGUBANE We are the only people who were using that road, during the day and during the night. So we know that at a certain time the police are not around that area and there are no cars that are using that road. So we were running when we left the hostel so as to see ourselves going under the bridge. We were running because we were hurrying to arrive where we were going. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. You were chanting se'Sotho as you moved towards Boipatong, were you not? MR MAGUBANE That is not correct. MR BERGER I want to put it to you that the reason that you and your fellow attackers were so brazen in leaving KwaMadala through the main gate and returning back through the main gate and making no attempt to conceal yourselves or your weapons or the loot that you were carrying, is because you well knew and you had been given the assurance by Themba Khosa and by certain policemen, that you would not be interfered with on the night of the attack, instead you would be assisted by the police. MR MAGUBANE That is not so, there was no-one that told us that the police would assist us when we attack the people of Boipatong. We didn't know about that. If it was known, maybe it was known to a few people. MR BERGER You mean to the leaders of the attack? MR MAGUBANE If it was discussed or it was known, it was only known to the leadership, those people who were involved in the planning because I would not be in a position to disagree with them when they say so. MR BERGER But you never asked anyone, either a co-attacker or someone in leadership? You never said; what about Iscor security, what about the police, what about the army, they might catch us our way to Boipatong. You never raised those concerns? MR MAGUBANE That is so. MR BERGER Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Magubane, when Richard Dlamini was coming to the rooms to tell you to take out the things that you stole from the township, who was he with? MR MAGUBANE He was alone. MR MALINDI Was he not with Matanda? MR MAGUBANE Well I did not see him with Matanda. I know Matanda, he speaks too much, I know him. Even if he was with Matanda, maybe Matanda was in another room. MR MALINDI Was he not with Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize as well? MR MAGUBANE I don't know, I don't remember well. MR MALINDI Did you see either Matanda or Mr Mkhize also helping to inform the residents to take out the goods to be burnt? MR MAGUBANE That hostel is very big, I won't be able to see around the hostel. There are places that I will not be able to see. MR MALINDI Mr Mazibuko who gave evidence before you said that Mr Dlamini, Mr Mkhize and Matanda were telling people to take things out, you didn't see that? MR MAGUBANE I would not dispute what he said, maybe he saw them together, maybe the time that I saw them they had already dispersed. MR MALINDI In order to take revenge for what happened to your family in Sharpeville, why didn't you recommend that Sharpeville be attacked rather than Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE If we had transport I would suggest that we go and attack Sharpeville. I would fight and tell them that we should go to Sharpeville but now because we did not have a transport, it was difficult for us to go there so we decided to attack these people next to us because they also participated in attacking us. MR MALINDI But the Boipatong people had not participated in the burning of your house in Sharpeville, is it not so? MR MAGUBANE The people living at Boipatong are also supporters of the ANC. MR MALINDI And you did not have information that every resident of Boipatong was a member or supporter of the ANC? MR MAGUBANE You will not live in the township if you are not in the support of the ANC. MR MALINDI Well your parents left Sharpeville and went to Boipatong, and you said they were not politically involved. MR MAGUBANE That is correct, I said so. MR MALINDI And there must have been many other residents who were not politically involved in Boipatong? MR MAGUBANE When they arrived in Boipatong, they participated in politics. MR MALINDI On page 91 of the bundle, in your affidavit, you state that the people who were in control of the meeting of the 17th of June 1992 before you left to attack Boipatong, were Mkhize, Damarra and other Indunas. Could you give the Committee the names of the other Indunas who were in control of this meeting? MR MAGUBANE The other Indunas were Malankana, he was also a co-accused but he was acquitted. We used to call him Malankana. He was from KwaZulu Natal. I don't know whether from Nonkoma or where. The other one, there's another big man, I forget his name. MR MALINDI Any other Indunas? MR MAGUBANE I don't remember others. MR MALINDI Was Malankana acquitted or was he discharged at the end of the State's case? MR MAGUBANE Yes, he was acquitted, he was found not guilty. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS Nothing, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? MR STRYDOM No re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM MS PRETORIUS No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA Mr Magubane, during your cross-examination you stated on two occasions that, with reference to the military vehicle that you saw, that you would fight back and that they would run away. I get the impression when you state that, that you were confident that if you had to enter into a fight, and when I say "you' I mean it in the plural, I mean the group, that if you had to enter into a fight with the military vehicle you would have no doubt of victory, do you agree with that? MR MAGUBANE We would not claim victory but we would fight and maybe they would arrest us, but after a struggle. MR DA SILVA Do you believe that a single military vehicle would be able to arrest the group of people that was crossing the road, a group of about 300 or 200 people? MR MAGUBANE No, they would not. MR DA SILVA Now if that was so obvious, wouldn't that be obvious to the people in the military vehicle as well? ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr da Silva, are you expecting this witness to express an opinion as to what was going on in the mind of the people who were in the army vehicle? Isn't it sufficient for him just to tell us what his perception of the situation was. I mean surely, we are not here to listen to his opinion as to what was going on in the mind of the army. MR DA SILVA I'll leave that question, I won't take it further. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DA SILVA You testified earlier that the vehicle that you saw was in the vicinity of the robots, and I understood your evidence to be that the group crossed at the footbridge, are you able to estimate the distance between the group and the vehicle? MR MAGUBANE The car has already passed the bridge when we passed. It was at a distance, the car was parked at a distance. MR DA SILVA Would you agree with me that on your explanation, the distance between the robot and the footbridge is in excess of 100 metres, or can't you say? MR MAGUBANE You say 100 metres? MR DA SILVA Yes, 100 metres, more than 100 metres. MR MAGUBANE If 100 metres can equal this hall twice, then I would agree. MR DA SILVA Well we've measured the hall, it would be in excess of three times the length of this hall, would you agree with that? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I would do. MR DA SILVA My instructions are that the military vehicle never saw people carrying goods while they were crossing the bridge or crossing the road, do you have any comment in that regard? MR MAGUBANE If they say so, I would agree because where we were it was dark but where they were there was light. I would agree if they say they did not see people. MR DA SILVA I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't understand your answer properly. The point put to you or the question put to you was that they saw nobody carrying any goods, would you dispute that? MR MAGUBANE We were in a group and then we crossed very fast. As to whether they turned and looked around, if they did not see, they did not see and then I would agree because if a person passes you at the back, you are not able to see. MR DA SILVA Now a further question was put to you in regard to whether you were aware of any initiatives being taken by the military vehicle to arrest you, and you say you were not aware of such initiatives, so you would not dispute that in fact steps were being taken at that time, is that correct? MR MAGUBANE I would not agree or disagree because the road we used we had no obstacle or no hindrance in our movements. Even in Court we heard that the soldiers entered in the grass and then they shot in the air. I heard in Court. I did not see them, even under the bridge I did not see them. MR DA SILVA Are you aware that at a later stage more military vehicles were in the vicinity, were called to the vicinity? Do you have any comment in that regard? MR MAGUBANE Do you mean the following day? MR DA SILVA After the group had crossed the road, a few minutes after that, say an half an hour after that there were more military vehicles in the vicinity. CHAIRPERSON Is there any indication how many military vehicles were there at that stage? MR DA SILVA There were several vehicles at different stages, Mr Chairman, it's difficult for me to say precisely at what stage. The question is a general question, whether the witness is aware of further military vehicles after they had for instance, entered KwaMadala hostel. CHAIRPERSON Well it's just that I wanted clarity because I had understood what put to the other witness, that there were only two vehicles that were available at that particular time ...(intervention) MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman, I don't want to go, protract the proceedings into going into a long detail, but at various stages during the night to the following morning there were different vehicles coming in. At the stage when they were crossing the road, there were only Buffels available at that stage. I'm talking after they had entered into the KwaMadala hostel, if the witness is aware of further military vehicles in the vicinity. CHAIRPERSON In the vicinity of the hostel? MR DA SILVA Of the hostel, yes, Mr Chairman. MR MAGUBANE The room which I use is in the middle of the hostel so I would not be able to see what was happening at the gate. MR DA SILVA I don't have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Yes, Ms Tanzer? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Thank you, Chairman. You say that Mr Nosenga came chatting to you in Zone 2, in your cross-examination, how often did he do this? MR MAGUBANE I would not be able to say he came daily or on a particular day but all the time he was inside, then he would not talk Zulu or communicate with the Zulus because he did not know Zulu. He would come to our group because we are Sotho-speaking. MS TANZER When he came to chat, did he talk about the Boipatong attack, did he mention police assistance in the attack, did he mention any events of that night? MR MAGUBANE No. MS TANZER Did you ever discuss between yourselves what happened that night? CHAIRPERSON When you say "between yourselves", does it exclude Mr Nosenga? MS TANZER Well not really, between the residents, "yourselves" in plural. MR MAGUBANE We were not discussing about this issue because it happened and then it passed. MS TANZER According to your testimony, Mr Nosenga only joined the hostel after the attack, were you not suspicious of him, that perhaps he was an ANC or police spy? MR MAGUBANE We did not have suspicion. He told me that he was sent by the ANC for the first time when he came, that he was coming to observe what was happening in the hostel. Then he was taken to the office and then he appeared on the newspapers as to whether what was happening, what was he doing in the hostel and what happened, that he wanted to kill Getisi. From there he was taken back to the township. He knew that he was going to be killed if he can go back to the township. Then after he was made to stay in the hostel, we had to protect him because the ANC was going to kill him, so he stayed in the hostel. MS TANZER You said he wasn't a friend of yours though, did you ever visit him in his room? MR MAGUBANE Yes, I had friends who were staying in that room, not him. MS TANZER No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. After the - well, did you go to the stadium after you'd heard what has been referred to as "Ixilongo". INTERPRETER May you please repeat your question, Sir? CHAIRPERSON Did you go to the stadium after you've heard what has been described here as "Ixilongo"? MR MAGUBANE Yes, you mean before the attack? CHAIRPERSON Yes, just before the attack, yes. MR MAGUBANE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON And who spoke to the people who had gathered there? MR MAGUBANE It would depend what was the purpose of the meeting. If it was called ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm referring to the night of the 17th just before you proceed to Boipatong. MR MAGUBANE That is Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON What did he say? MR MAGUBANE He said this is the time about your complaints, we should go and arm ourselves and then we're going to attack. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that again, be very slow so that the interpreter can interpret that. MR MAGUBANE He said this is the day which we were crying for, everyone must go back to his room and collect his arms, we're going to attack, we're going to attack Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no questions. ADV SIGODI No questions, thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything arising from this? MR BERGER Nothing. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Thank you, Mr Magubane, you may return to your seat. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON In view of the time, we are not going to deal with your next witness, Mr Strydom. We will have to adjourn until Monday. Did we agree on a time on Monday? MR BERGER I'm keeping ...(intervention) MR STRYDOM No, Chairperson, but I can suggest 9 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Okay, alright. Shall we start at nine thirty. Okay, very well, these proceedings then stand adjourned until Monday at nine thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS