amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-01-25 VEREENIGING 6 SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI 6120/97 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53123&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99011827_vrn_990125ve.htm CHAIRPERSON Are you ready to proceed Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson, the next applicant is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi. CHAIRPERSON May I indicate that I have been advised by the interpreter that there is only one Zulu interpreter and that being the case we may either have to slow down or take adjournments every time and again so as to give the only interpreter present time to rest. I am informed though that another interpreter is on her way from Cape Town so once she arrives we should be able to proceed at the normal pace. Yes thank you. What is the name of this gentleman? MR STRYDOM Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, number seven on the list. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkwanazi what language our you going to speak? MR MKWANAZI Sesotho. CHAIRPERSON Very well, would you state your full names for the record? SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Mr Mkwanazi, what is your level of education? MR MKWANAZI Standard 5. MR STRYDOM How old are you presently? MR MKWANAZI I am 23 years old. MR STRYDOM Which year were you born? MR MKWANAZI 1977, it was in February. MR STRYDOM You have signed a so-called Form 1? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Your signature appears on page 133, do you identify your signature? MR MKWANAZI Yes I can see the signature. MR STRYDOM Do you confirm the contents of the application form, Form 1? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM You've indicated now that you were born during 1977, I see in this form your birth date is given as 11th February 1976, can you just make that clear? MR MKWANAZI I have just applied for an identity document in 1997 and I only learnt then that I was born in February 1977. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkwanazi, would you please speak up so that people at the back of the hall can hear what you are saying, do you understand? MR MKWANAZI Yes very well. I have just taken in a new identity document, it was in 1997 when I applied. It is then that I only came to know that I was born in 1977 in February. MR STRYDOM And next to your application form is a typed out document setting out inter alia the political objective you wanted to achieve with the attack. Now this document was translated to you and shown to you. Do you confirm the contents of this document? MR MKWANAZI Yes that is correct but I must say we did not have an interpreter on that day. MR STRYDOM Yes but I'm referring today this contents have been explained yet again, do you confirm the contents? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM In your own words, what was your motive and objectives when you decided to go along with the group that attacked Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI The objective was to go to Boipatong and teach the people of Boipatong a lesson. They didn't want us to live in the township. I wanted to teach them a lesson. MR STRYDOM Before you moved to Kwamadala Hostel were you a victim of violence against yourself personally? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM And according to your application you moved into the hostel during 1991, is that right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Did you become a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Now the next document I want to refer you to appears on page 136 of the bundle, that is the request for further particulars and your answers appear on page 138 to 140. Do you confirm that the questions and answers were again shown to you? MR MKWANAZI I confirm. MR STRYDOM You indicated that there's a wrong answer, is that right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM And you indicated to me, well I'll read you the question, you give the answer that should be given, that's question 5.2 "Did Mr Khosa warn hostel dwellers at the meeting that they should burn all evidence that linked attackers to the massacre including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood?" The answer that appears on page 139 under 5.2 is "Yes" Do you stand by that answer? MR MKWANAZI No I don't stand by that answer. MR STRYDOM What should that answer be? MR MKWANAZI I said he might have said that but not in my presence. I had not arrived at the meeting. MR STRYDOM Can you give or tender any explanation why the answer was given as "yes"? CHAIRPERSON Well isn't it what he's saying that what he said was that he might have said that but not in his presence? MR STRYDOM That is his answer today but I just want to give him the opportunity to explain why the wrong answer appeared on the application initially. MR MKWANAZI My advocate was with me during that occasion, he must have mistaken me for a wrong answer. On that day I said to him he might have said that but I had not arrived at the meeting yet. The mistake comes from his side. MR STRYDOM Do you remember if an interpreter was used? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM Would you speak a little bit of Afrikaans? MR MKWANAZI No that much. MR LAX Sorry Mr Strydom, does he know that there wasn't an interpreter or he does not remember, I'm not quite clear what his answer is? MR MKWANAZI No. MR LAX No to what? Was there an interpreter or that you just don't remember? MR MKWANAZI There was no interpreter. MR LAX Thank you. MR STRYDOM When your statement was taken were you in custody at that time? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Now the next document I want to show you is an affidavit which appears on page 141 up to page 143. Now this document has been shown to you again and interpreted to you and you indicated that there are certain aspects that are not completely correct. The one paragraph I want to read out to you is on page 142, the second paragraph which I will translate "Before the night of the 17th June 1992 I knew nothing of any attack which was going to take place" Is that correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM When was the first time for you to become aware that Boipatong would be attacked? MR MKWANAZI It was on the 10th at the meeting. MR STRYDOM Who spoke during the meeting of the 10th you refer to? MR MKWANAZI It was Mr Mkhize. MR STRYDOM Do you remember what he said during the meeting? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR STRYDOM Can you just repeat what you remember? MR MKWANAZI He said we should get ready for an attack but he did not tell us as to when will the attack take place. They said we should go and revenge against the people of Boipatong who did not want us in the township, the people of Boipatong who killed us when we went into the township. MR STRYDOM So if I can refer you to page 142 again, is that statement then correct, the one I translated to you? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkwanazi, the statement that your counsel has just read to you says that before the night of the 17th June 1992 you did not know or you were not aware of any attack that was going to take place, do you understand that? MR MKWANAZI Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON You've just told us now that you first became aware of the attack, of the pending attack on Boipatong on the 10th June 1992? You see, do you understand that? MR MKWANAZI I understand. CHAIRPERSON So the statement that appears at page 142 cannot be correct can it? MR MKWANAZI What I know is that we were told to prepare ourselves for an attack. We were not told the date of the attack. CHAIRPERSON And you knew what place you were going to attack didn't you? MR MKWANAZI We did not know. MR STRYDOM The other paragraph you pointed out to me relates to the request for further particulars and the answer given there. I'm going to translate this paragraph and you must tell me what you say is incorrect "Shortly after the attack goods from Boipatong were burnt. Mkhize and Damara gave instructions. Themba Khosa said during a meeting after the attack that we should burn blooded clothes. The video which I took during the attack was burnt." Are you happy with that paragraph? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM To which extent are you not happy with that paragraph? MR MKWANAZI It is that issue of bloodstained clothes, nobody gave such an order. Damara, Xongo and Metjie Mkhize ordered us to burn the videos to do away with the evidence. MR STRYDOM Are you also known as or your nickname during that period as Stickenau? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Is that a nickname for a person that walks with a limp? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Do you know a policeman by the name of Peens? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM Do you know a person by the name of Andries Nosenga also known as Matanzima. MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Where do you know him from? MR MKWANAZI I know him from Madala Hostel. MR STRYDOM You've heard the allegations that's been put to the other witnesses which basically boils down to the fact that he came to the hostel before the attack. What do you say about that? MR MKWANAZI That is not correct. MR STRYDOM He also made a reference to a meeting that took place before the attack where Themba Khoza and Peens addressed the hostel dwellers. Do you have any knowledge of that? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM In Mr Nosenga's affidavit it's also stated that on the night of the attack Casspir vehicles picked up various residents of the hostel including a person by the name of Lucky and he stated that he was limping. Now if one accepts that reference to that Lucky, his reference to you, what do you say about these allegations? MR MKWANAZI There were no police vehicles on that day. We walked to Boipatong. When we were next to an open space we stopped, split in two groups and went into the township. I did not see police vehicles on that day. MR STRYDOM During the course of the attack or shortly thereafter did you see any military vehicles? MR MKWANAZI Yes, after the attack I saw two military vehicles and they wanted to stop us entering into Kwamadala Hostel. Themba Mabote shot in their direction and they drove off taking the direction leading to Sebokeng. MR STRYDOM Was that the only defence force or police vehicles you saw during the course of the attack or shortly thereafter if I could put it that way? MR MKWANAZI I saw them approaching from Vanderbijlpark. MR STRYDOM But when was that? MR MKWANAZI When we were coming out of Boipatong. MR STRYDOM Now you indicated in your application that you were in Damara's group and you did explain briefly what did you do in Boipatong which places did you go to and what did you do inside Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI We were breaking windows and others were getting into the houses, opening the doors. I smashed the windows in Boipatong. MR STRYDOM Did you injure or kill any person in Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM Could you see that any person was injured or killed by some other of your co-attackers? MR MKWANAZI I could not see anything on that day but because of the shots that were fired there's a possibility that people might have been killed or injured and the next day it was reported that the people were killed in Boipatong and it was alleged that they were killed by the people from Kwamadala. MR STRYDOM Apart from breaking windows did you go into houses yourself? MR MKWANAZI There is this one house that I got into and I took a video away but there were no people in the house, they had run away already. MR STRYDOM And is that video you returned to the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Why did you take the video? MR MKWANAZI I took this video to sell it in Kwamadala, we were starving. I did not even have clothes to wear. When I arrived at Kwamadala I only had the clothes that were on my person only so I wanted to sell this video so that I can buy clothes and buy food. MR STRYDOM Your parents, where did they stay during the attack? MR MKWANAZI They stayed in Sebokeng. ADV. DE JAGER Could you return to your parental home? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM Why not? MR MKWANAZI There was a group of comrades who accosted me, they assaulted me and they told me to tell them where my friend was. They claimed that we were members of IFP. I managed though to escape from them and a certain friend of mine called Mapondo advised me to go to Kwamadala Hostel, I did not know Kwamadala Hostel then. I agreed, we went together. He told us that there was accommodation at Kwamadala Hostel and we could stay there. The comrades had killed Tompie Vilakazi who was my friend. They chopped him with ...[indistinct] and pangas, I got very scared and I retreated to the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Do you know why the comrades accused you of being a member of the IFP? MR MKWANAZI Yes. A certain boy who was a scholar at Lekwashando was killed, his name Lata so he was killed by my friends. I was not present in that group now when they were searching for my friends they came to me but I told them that I did not know their whereabouts. They then left with me, assaulted me with shamboks, I managed to escape to the police station, I met Mapondo, he advised me to go with him to Kwamadala Hostel. He told me that there was accommodation and we would be safe and then we moved. CHAIRPERSON Yes I understand, I know that you were advised by Mapondo to go to hostel but what I want to find out is do you know, I mean apart from the fact that Lita Shando was killed there. Do you know why the comrades accused you of being a member of the IFP? MR MKWANAZI I really do not know, I do not know why they accused me. MR STRYDOM Apart from the fact that you could not return to Sebokeng, just prior to the attack could you move freely in the township Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI No we could not move free anywhere, not only Boipatong, Sebokeng included, Sharpeville and Boepalong. MR STRYDOM Did you know a person by the name of Victor Kezwa? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Were you a member of any hit squad? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM During the period before the attack were you aware of Victor Kezwa's activities? MR MKWANAZI I only heard of them. MR STRYDOM When you got to Kwamadala Hostel did you become a member of the Youth Brigade? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Did you rape any person whilst you were in Boipatong during the attack? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM Now an allegation was made during the trial of this Boipatong Massacre case, that the allegation was made by one of the state witnesses that you bragged afterwards that you have raped a woman. The witness also testified that he did not believe you and he thought that it was - you were just saying that to boost yourself but what do you say about the allegation that you said so? MR MKWANAZI This is a blatant lie. The situation was very tense in Boipatong. There was gunfire. People were screaming. There was no such act that could have taken place, an act of raping, the situation was just tense for such an action to happen, it was gunfire, people were screaming. One would never take such an action. MR STRYDOM Do you know Prince Vanala Zulu? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM Did you see him during the attack? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM If he was there just before and during the attack would you have seen him? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR STRYDOM At that time did you know where he was? MR MKWANAZI I know he was at home. I'm referring to Natal. MR STRYDOM I've got no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Yes Ms Pretorius? EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS Thank you Mr Chairman. At this stage when this attack took place you were only 17 years old, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI I was thirteen years old. MS PRETORIUS Do you know how Victor Kezwa died? MR MKWANAZI No. MS PRETORIUS Why did you have only the clothes you were wearing when you went to Kwamadala Hostel, what was the reason for that? MR MKWANAZI It's because I ran away from the township, I could not go back to fetch my clothes. Had I gone to Sharpeville, who knows, I would have been killed and my parents could not even bring me clothes because they were always being threatened. MS PRETORIUS I've no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr da Silva? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA May it please you Mr Chairman. Mr Mkwanazi, you testified that you saw two military vehicles. Could you explain where you were when you saw these vehicles? You say you saw them after the attack. Can you explain more or less where you were after the attack? MR MKWANAZI We were retreating from Boipatong, we were at an open space. Now these vehicles approached from the Vanderbijlpark direction. Themba Mabote shot at these vehicles, they drove off leading to Sebokeng. MR DA SILVA So do I understand your evidence that you were in an open veld between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, that's the road that leads between Sebokeng and Vanderbijlpark? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA Now when you saw this vehicles, let me just clarify this, there's a road Noble Boulevard that is between Boipatong and the factories. Did you see these vehicles any stage on Noble Boulevard or did you see them only on the road which is between Kwamadala Hostel and Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI I saw them in the main road. MR DA SILVA Now when you saw them were they in the vicinity of the robots? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA When you saw them the first time is that where you saw them, in the vicinity of the robot? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA And you say Mr Mabote shot at them and then they moved off in the direction of Sebokeng, in other words in a northerly direction? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA Now if you saw them the first time in the vicinity of the robots, what makes you believe that they came from Vanderbijlpark? Is that not an assumption you're making? MR MKWANAZI No, I saw them approaching from Vanderbijlpark and they wanted to stop us. Themba Mabote shot at them, they moved from where they were parked, that is close to the robots and they headed for Sebokeng. MR DA SILVA But if you saw them the first time in the vicinity of the robots, what makes you believe that they came from Vanderbijlpark, in other words from a southern direction? CHAIRPERSON He said in his evidence that when he saw they were approaching from the Vanderbijlpark direction, is that not what he's saying? MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Unless there's something that I've missed here. MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman I asked him specifically this to try and establish why he says they came from the Vanderbijlpark area and I asked him specifically where did he see them the first time. He says he saw them at the robots. That is not from the Vanderbijlpark direction, Mr Chairman, this is why I'm trying to follow this up to try and clarify this. Is your evidence, I understood your evidence to be that you saw them in the vicinity of the robots the first time? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA My instructions are that they never came from Vanderbijlpark. Is it possible that you made an assumption that they came from the Vanderbijlpark direction? MR MKWANAZI There are two streets. There's a four way stop in the middle, cars approach from Vanderbijlpark in the northerly direction, that's why I'm certain that they were approaching from Vanderbijlpark heading towards the north. MR DA SILVA Why do you say you're certain they were coming from Vanderbijlpark? MR MKWANAZI I saw them on the left side of the road from Vanderbijlpark. MR DA SILVA But could it not be that they just parked there, it doesn't mean that they're in actual fact travelling from Vanderbijlpark? MR MKWANAZI I saw them approaching from Vanderbijlpark, they were not parking. They then turned towards our direction, they lit us, Themba Mabote shot at them and they drove off. MR DA SILVA Now if I remember Mr Mazibuko's evidence correctly, his evidence was that Themba Mabote shot several times at them. Is that your recollection? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA Now there were several witnesses that testified during the trial, a Mr Holi Bajosi and a Mr Malloy. Do you remember them testifying during the criminal trial? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA These vehicles that you saw can you describe them? MR MKWANAZI Yes, brown in colour and these are small cars but topless because the people could protrude from within. MR DA SILVA So it's your evidence that both of them were brown and both vehicles didn't have a roof? MR MKWANAZI That is correct, they were open at the top. MR DA SILVA Mr Mazibuko referred to these vehicles as suitcases, do you also know them as suitcases? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA So you're quite certain you saw two vehicles which you know as suitcases? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR DA SILVA Now to return to Mr Bajosi's evidence and Mr Malloy's evidence and one of your co-applicant's evidence, Mr Magubane, he says he saw one vehicle. Isn't it that you could be mistaken that there was only one vehicle? MR MKWANAZI No I saw two cars. MR DA SILVA Is it - you can't give an explanation why Mr Magubane only saw one? MR MKWANAZI Magubane one, I saw two. It might happen that he saw one car, one vehicle, but I saw two. MR DA SILVA I just want to put my instructions to you, my instructions are that there was only one vehicle and that vehicle came in the direction of Sebokeng. Do you have any comment in that regard? MR MKWANAZI It was from Vanderbijlpark's direction. MR DA SILVA Do you have any comment in regard to there only being one vehicle? MR MKWANAZI I saw two vehicles on that day. MR DA SILVA I have no further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Yes Ms Tanzer? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Have you been sitting in these proceedings listening to the hearing since the beginning? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MS TANZER You have heard what I have put to your co-applicant so far regarding Mr Nosenga's statements? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MS TANZER So in order to prevent any protracted questioning, I'm going to just simply put to you as you are well aware Mr Nosenga's version are the events that led up to the Boipatong attack, the meetings that took place and the fact that there was police assistance during the attack on the night of the 17th June. What are your comments in this regard? MR MKWANAZI That is not correct, there were no police vehicles assisting, I did not see the police vehicles. It was only our group, our members, in Boipatong. There were no police vehicles. MS TANZER So in fact Mr Nosenga's version is incorrect in your opinion? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MS TANZER When were you arrested? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember the month but it was not on the 18th or the 19th, it was quite sometime thereafter, three or four months thereafter. MS TANZER When do you allege that Mr Nosenga joined the hostel? MR MKWANAZI After the attack, after the attack had taken place in Boipatong. MS TANZER Can you be a little more specific? One week, one month? MR MKWANAZI It might be a month or two after the attack. MS TANZER Did you know Mr Nosenga personally? MR MKWANAZI No. MS TANZER Did you ever have any conversations with him? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MS TANZER And during these conversations was the attack ever discussed? MR MKWANAZI No. MS TANZER Did he ever ask you questions about the attack? MR MKWANAZI No. MS TANZER Did he ask you about your participation in the attack? MR MKWANAZI No. MS TANZER So how can you explain why Mr Nosenga has such detailed knowledge about events leading up to the attack and the attack itself? MR MKWANAZI I do not know, he might have heard of the activities from the newspapers because this was a very famous news story. He might have read it from the newspapers, he might have seen it from the television, this was known world wide. MS TANZER I put it to you that Mr Nosenga has no education and cannot read a newspaper and he had no access to televisions in the hostel as I understand from your evidence or the evidence of your co-applicants? CHAIRPERSON Well I'm not too sure whether this witness said that there was no television in the hostel at all. Were there televisions in the hostels? MR MKWANAZI There was no television in the hostel. CHAIRPERSON In the entire hostel no one had a television? MR MKWANAZI In our room we did not have a television. CHAIRPERSON What about the other rooms? MR MKWANAZI Yes there were televisions in other rooms. CHAIRPERSON That was prior to the attack? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MS TANZER Did you see no police vehicles in and around Boipatong during the attack? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MS TANZER Now in your evidence you said that you were advised you could stay in the hostel. What were the conditions imposed upon you for joining the hostel? MR MKWANAZI It was expected of me to be a member of the IFP as I've run away from the township, afraid of the attacks from the comrades. MS TANZER And being a member of the IFP what was asked of you in the hostel, what were your duties as a member? MR MKWANAZI There were no duties assigned to me, I was just an inhabitant of the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Once at the hostel were you employed? MR MKWANAZI No. MS TANZER You mentioned a meeting after the attack that you came late to while Themba Khosa was addressing this meeting. How long would you say this meeting took place? MR MKWANAZI I do not know how long the meeting took place. MS TANZER Approximately? MR MKWANAZI It might have been an hour or thirty minutes. MS TANZER Now you gave evidence that you heard nothing about the burning of the loot by the time you arrived at this meeting? What was he talking about? MR MKWANAZI He was telling us to co-operate with the police because they are investigating the Boipatong issue. MS TANZER For a whole hour? MR MKWANAZI There are other things as well. He said we should not fight back because the people of the hostel were angry, they wanted to fight the police. He told us to come down and give our co-operation. MS TANZER Was Themba Khosa angry at this meeting? MR MKWANAZI No he wasn't. MS TANZER Well how was his attitude towards the hostel dwellers having just attacked Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI He was very sad, he asked us what happened but nobody told him the truth. MS TANZER So at this meeting he was basically giving over the chair to the audience asking who could offer information, is that what you're saying? MR MKWANAZI He asked that question but nobody responded to it. MS TANZER You said you weren't employed at the hostel, how were you maintained? MR MKWANAZI Red Cross supplied us with food parcels. Often times the people of Kwamadala would gather some money so that we can buy food. MS TANZER Where did you get the money from? MR MKWANAZI The elderly men at Kwamadala would gather some money and buy us food. MS TANZER Did you ever break into shops or steal money or food in order to maintain yourself? MR MKWANAZI No. MS TANZER Did you have a choice in participating in this attack? MR MKWANAZI I did not have a choice. I really did not have a choice. We were told to attack, before that we were told to take white headbands, all men were told to go, only women were supposed to stay behind. There was nothing I could do. MS TANZER Well what age were you considered a man? CHAIRPERSON Ma'am, I'm not too sure what's the relevance of these questions, is there an issue about whether this applicant take part in the attack? MS TANZER I didn't get the question Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON As there an issue as to whether this man took part in the attack? MS TANZER No there isn't Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Then why are we asking these questions? MS TANZER You're right Mr Chairman. During the attack did you leave yourself with anybody or did you make sure that you were standing next to a person with a weapon, a firearm? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MS TANZER And who was your accomplice, who were you with all the time? MR MKWANAZI That is Damara, Damara Xongo. MS TANZER Alright my final question is, I put to you that I understand you have denied allegations of Mr Nosenga. He places you in a Casspir on the night of the attack, taking you to Boipatong. This is his statement and this is the evidence he is going to be giving. What is your comment? MR MKWANAZI That is not correct, that is a blatant lie from Nosenga's side. Nothing of that sort happened. We walked to Boipatong and walked back. MS TANZER Well I put it to you that you are lying and that Mr Nosenga is being open with this Committee. MR MKWANAZI I do not know anything of what he said. I am telling the truth today. We were on foot to Boipatong, on foot back from Boipatong, no police casspirs, no police vehicles. MS TANZER I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are you also known as Lucky? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON We will be - I beg your pardon, I should start with Mr Mapoma. Do you have any questions Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No Chairperson, I thought if any questions I do have I may have after Mr Berger has cross-examined the witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Berger? MR BERGER Yes? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger let me warn you that we intend taking a break at 11 o'clock. MR BERGER Chairperson, might I ask if we take the break now instead of at 11 because in five minutes time I going to be right in the middle of a point which I wouldn't want to break. CHAIRPERSON We will take an adjournment now, we will come back at 11.25. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkwanazi, let me remind you that you're still under oath to speak the truth. Yes Mr Berger? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkwanazi, at the criminal trial you told the court that you first moved into the hostel on the 27th June 1992 and prior to that you were never at Kwamadala, is that correct? SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI (s.u.o.) That is correct. I was just defending myself. MR BERGER That was a lie? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And now, before this Amnesty Committee you admit your participation in the attack but you reduce it to an absolute minimum, correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER In other words you don't admit killing or attacking or attempting to attack any person? MR MKWANAZI I did attack, I went to Boipatong. MR BERGER Yes but in your admitted participation in the attack before this Committee, you have reduced your participation to an absolute minimum? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And you say that is not a lie? MR MKWANAZI I went to Boipatong to attack but it was not my intention to go there. An order was taken out that nobody should remain behind, all men must go, women must stay behind. It wasn't my intention to go and attack people in Boipatong. MR BERGER So you didn't want to go to Boipatong and you wouldn't have gone if there hadn't been an order? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And if you don't get amnesty then you're going to proceed with your appeal and you're going to go to the appeal court and you're going to lie about your participation in the attack, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI No. MR BERGER So if you don't get amnesty you won't proceed with your appeal? MR MKWANAZI The appeal goes on, sir. MR BERGER Isn't it correct that depending on the circumstances you just modify your evidence accordingly? MR MKWANAZI That is not correct. MR BERGER You see I wasn't surprised this morning when you changed certain of the answers in your application and in particular I'm referring to your answer about what Themba Khosa said at the meeting of the 18th June 1992. You told the Committee that the reason that there's that wrong answer and the reason that there's that incorrect passage in your affidavit is because your advocate got it wrong, not you, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI That's what I said. MR BERGER And the fact that you've been sitting here everyday - well let me ask you that first, is it correct that you've been present throughout these proceedings? MR MKWANAZI When these proceedings began this month I was not here. MR BERGER Yes, you were not here on the 18th January 1999. MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER But for that day you have attended every other day, every other sitting of this hearing? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And you've heard all your co-applicants with the exception of Mr Victor Mthembu denied that Themba Khosa gave the order to burn goods from the hostel? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And you knew what was contained in your amnesty application namely that you had admitted that Themba Khosa had given that instruction? MR MKWANAZI It might have happened that he took out such an instruction but I was not present at that time, I arrived late. MR BERGER You see what I'm putting to you is that the reason that you changed your application or the details, those particular details in your application, is because you want your evidence to fit in with the evidence of your co-applicant's, am I right? MR MKWANAZI No, you're not right. MR BERGER Okay, when you made your application, I'm talking about the documents at pages 131 to 133, where were you? MR MKWANAZI I was in prison, Leeuhof. MR BERGER That was on the 15th January 1998. MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And when you gave you answers which I recorded at pages 131 to 133, who was present? MR MKWANAZI It was two advocates. MR BERGER Advocate Strydom next to you and Mr Frederick next to him? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And there was no interpreter present? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And at that time were the contents of the pages 134 and 135 explained to you? MR MKWANAZI I did not have an interpreter but here and there I could understand what was said. MR BERGER Please be aware of the document that I'm referring you to, I'm referring you to page 134 and page 135. Perhaps my learned friend could show you? Was that document explained to you when you signed your amnesty application? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And then the questions at pages 136 to 137 were put to you and you gave the answers at 138 to 140? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Who was present when you were asked those questions and you gave those answers? MR MKWANAZI Advocate Strydom next to me. MR BERGER Only Advocate Strydom? MR MKWANAZI The two of them again. MR BERGER Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick and there was no interpreter present? MR MKWANAZI There was no interpreter. MR BERGER Then the document at pages 141 to 143, that is your affidavit, that was signed by you on 11th June 1998 and the oath was taken by Mr Frederick, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And who else was present when you gave this statement? MR MKWANAZI We were three. MR BERGER You, Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And once again there was no interpreter present? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And you do not speak English or Afrikaans and you do not understand English or Afrikaans, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER You spoke exclusively in Sotho? MR MKWANAZI Afrikaans as well, I can understand Afrikaans just bits and pieces of Afrikaans. I'm very strong in English, my English is stronger than Afrikaans. MR BERGER So did you not speak English to Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick? MR MKWANAZI Here and there I would throw a bit of English, yes. MR BERGER You see because the document from 141 to 143 is quite a detailed document and it has information which is peculiar to you and to no one else. For example what is written on page 141 and on other pages, 142 and 143. So what I'm suggesting to you, Mr Mkwanazi, is that you and Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick were able to converse quite easily for them to be able to get this statement down from you, that there was no problem with communication at all? MR MKWANAZI There was a linguistic problem, a communication problem. Why do I say this it's because I would mix English and Afrikaans together. MR BERGER Yes but there was never a time when you didn't understand what they were asking you and they didn't understand what you were saying? Isn't that right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct, here and there we would understand each other quite well. MR BERGER Now for example question number 6 at page 136 "Did you see any person firing with firearms during this attack? If yes, please supply particulars." MR MKWANAZI Themba Mabote. MR BERGER Yes, in fact that was your answer. You said "yes, I saw people" - page 139. "I saw Themba Mabote" Accused 67 at the trial, fired shots in the streets of Boipatong, that's correct is it not? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER I also saw Damara firing shots in the direction of the shops. That is correct is it not? MR MKWANAZI Yes that is correct. MR BERGER You went on "Apart from what I saw I also heard various shots being fired." That's correct is it not? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER I see you answered in English that time, you said "yes". MR MKWANAZI Yes that is correct. MR BERGER In fact you've been through all the questions and all the answers with your legal representatives, you've been through your application and you've been through the affidavit which you made at pages 141 to 143 and am I correct to say that you are satisfied with everything that is written there except the parts that you pointed out in your evidence this morning? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Everything else has been properly, faithfully and accurately recorded. Am I correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Now to come to the pertinent question, it's question 5 on page 136. You were asked "Did Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Nglovu visit Kwamadala after the attack?" MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR BERGER Your answer was exactly the same, yes. You answered yes in Sotho and you answered yes in English on page 139. Your answer now again is yes. 5.1 "Give particulars of the nature of this visit" It's not a simple question if one doesn't understand English or Afrikaans. You answer 5.1: "They called a meeting of the hostel dwellers" That is correct is it not? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER: 5.2: "Did Mr Khosa warn hostel dwellers at the meeting that they should burn all evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood?" What part of that question - well in fact I beg your pardon -there's nothing in that question that you didn't understand, am I right? MR MKWANAZI My advocate made a mistake somewhere because I said to him if ever an order was taken out to burn bloodstained clothes I was not there. He might have said it but I was not in the meeting yet. MR BERGER So let's just get clarity, you understood the question perfectly well, there was no problem with understanding what the question was? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Where the dispute comes is you now say that your answer was not a simple yes, your answer was much longer than a simple yes, am I right? MR MKWANAZI I repeat, my answer is he might have said it but I was not in the meeting yet. The mistake arose from my advocate when he wrote this down. MR BERGER So you gave a long answer and your advocate recorded it as a simple yes, that's your evidence today? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER I put it to you that that answer is not the truth? MR MKWANAZI To me it's the truth. MR BERGER And you see it goes further than that, because in the statement where you were recounting what happened during the attack and after the attack, you give a full explanation and then at page 143 you say that "shortly after the attack we burnt the goods which came from Boipatong. Mkhize and Damara gave that instruction." Is that part correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER You then go on to say "Themba Khosa said during a meeting after the attack that we must burn the bloodied clothes" MR MKWANAZI That is not correct. MR BERGER Yes now in response to the question "Did Mr Khosa warn hostel dwellers at a meeting that they should burn all evidence that linked the attackers to a massacre including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood" You now say that your answer was not yes, your answer was: "He might have said so but I didn't hear him because I came late" MR MKWANAZI That's what I said. MR BERGER But your answer is not "no". Mr Mkhize and Mr Xongo gave that instruction. That's not your answer is it? MR MKWANAZI Mr Mkhize and Mr Damara issued out an instruction to burn the goods that were stolen from Boipatong to hide evidence. MR BERGER And what about the clothes stained with blood, did they say that those must also be burnt? MR MKWANAZI I did not hear anything to that effect. MR BERGER But the clothes stained with blood weren't to hide the evidence of the massacre, isn't that right? MR MKWANAZI The goods that were burnt included television sets, microwave ovens and video machines. These were goods stolen from Boipatong. MR BERGER And bloodied clothes? MR MKWANAZI I did not hear anything of the bloodied clothes. MR BERGER So where did your advocate get this sentence at page 143, that Themba Khosa said during a meeting of the attack that we must burn the bloodied clothes. Where did he get that sentence from if not from you? MR MKWANAZI He might have made a mistake. I explained to him as I am doing now. MR BERGER I put it to you Mr Mkwanazi that there was no mistake here, that this paragraph like the rest of the statement was faithfully and accurately recorded by your advocate from what you told him on the 11th June 1998. MR MKWANAZI What we've just discussed now is incorrect. On that day I was telling him everything I recalled. MR BERGER Now is it correct that at the time you were friendly with Mr Jack Mbele? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And you're still friendly with him aren't you? MR MKWANAZI We're still friends. MR BERGER You were also friendly with Mr Timothy Stalz Mazabuka? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And you're still friends? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Now you say that you were armed with a kierie is that right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER The state witness, Mr Malloy, said you were armed with a kierie, so he was correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER He said that you were in a group that were breaking windows, so he was telling the truth? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER He also said that he saw you come out of a house with other attackers and that you were carrying looted goods, so he was telling the truth? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER So he was quite an accurate witness as far as you were concerned, would you agree? MR MKWANAZI I agree. MR BERGER He also said that the following day you said that you had raped someone in Boipatong during the attack? MR MKWANAZI That is a blatant lie, the situation within the township was very tense. There was gunfire all over and screams of people, such an action would have never taken place. Even the members of our group were not known to each other, almost all of them because we were many, there were many of us, we would only know each other by white headbands. Such an action would have never taken place, no one would have raped on that day. I believe if you were found on the bed you would be killed mistakenly for someone who lives in that house. MR BERGER Firstly, why do you say the rapes were taking place on a bed? MR MKWANAZI I believe raping, sleeping with a woman, takes place on a bed. MR BERGER Mr Mkwanazi, I'm not going to debate the point with you that rape is not a sexual act, it's an act of violence, it's an act of power and it doesn't have to take place on a bed. The point is that Mr Malloy who accurately gave accurate evidence according to you about everything that you did or that he saw you doing during the attack should suddenly be mistaken about what you said a day after the attack. Can you explain that? MR MKWANAZI He is mistaken when it comes to the issue of rape because he did not see me raping. He says he heard it from me, I never said that, that is a blatant lie. MR BERGER Either you did rape during the attack or you're aware of the fact that people were raped and you in the euphoria after the attack tried to claim some credit for yourself? MR MKWANAZI That is not the truth. MR BERGER Mr Bajosi at the trial said that he saw you in Boipatong at a house on the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Streets, would that be correct? MR MKWANAZI It might be true he saw me but I did not see him. MR BERGER Well you don't dispute that during the attack you were in the vicinity at one point in time of the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Street? MR MKWANAZI I think we got into many streets. I do not even know where Glubie is, I would not dispute that. MR BERGER I can tell you - well you say you don't know where Glubie is, does that mean that you don't know Boipatong very well? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER You didn't spend any time in Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI No. MR BERGER You didn't have any friends or family in Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI I don't have family in Boipatong. MR BERGER You didn't have any reason to go to Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI I had no reason to take me to Boipatong to attack people. MR BERGER Now Glubie and Bafokeng, the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng is right at the top of the township, you know the streets where the factories are? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, his evidence is that he cannot dispute whether he was at that place because there were so many streets. I don't know what point would be served by telling me where the location is unless there is something to the point that you want to make. MR BERGER Chairperson, I want to give the witness an opportunity to at least have an idea of the area of Boipatong that I'm talking about because I want to tell him what happened at two houses near the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Streets but I can move onto that straight away without telling him, fine. CHAIRPERSON No, let's hear what he has to say because I understand him he just didn't know Boipatong, nor does he know any streets there, he can't dispute, deny that he was at some of those places. MR BERGER That's what I'm trying to assist him with, with some idea of where it is. Mr Mkwanazi, near the corner of the two streets where you were seen are two houses. One is 734 Bafokeng and the other is 722 Bafokeng. CHAIRPERSON And this is where he was seen by the state witness Bajosi? MR BERGER That is so, Chairperson and at 734 Bafokeng Andries Manekye and Lena Manekye were stabbed - let me be accurate, Andries Manekye was stabbed, chopped and shot. Lena Manekye was stabbed and items were stolen from the house and at 722 Bafokeng ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Let's just let him deal with the first one, with 734 first, let's get his response. Did you understand the question? MR MKWANAZI I understand. MR BERGER The question is and I'm not sure which house you were seen coming out of, that's why I wanted to mention both houses which are near the corner of the street, but in both houses items were stolen and in both houses people were killed. In other words they were there when the items were stolen because they died there. Now you say that the house you went into had been deserted? Are you not telling lies again? MR MKWANAZI No, there were no people inside the house, the house was deserted, the doors were open. CHAIRPERSON The state witness Bajosi only says he saw him in the vicinity of these two houses, 734 and 722, is that all he said? MR BERGER Yes, he saw him at a house on the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Streets. CHAIRPERSON Okay and the houses at the corner would be either one of those two? MR BERGER No Chairperson, 734 is exactly on the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng and 722 is in Bafokeng across the road from the corner with Glubie and Bafokeng. It's two houses away from the corner. CHAIRPERSON Yes alright. MR BERGER You're saying you didn't go into those houses? MR MKWANAZI No I did not get into those houses. The house that I went into was in the middle. From the corner it might be the seventh if not the eighth house. MR BERGER Oh, so you do have an idea of where the house is? MR MKWANAZI It might happen it is the seventh or the eighth house from the corner, that's the structure of the township houses. MR BERGER And you can remember that today from that night? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. I remember what happened on that day. MR BERGER You took a T.V. - I beg your pardon, a video recorder, because you were hoping to sell it to someone in the hostel? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER You were hoping to sell it to someone who had a T.V.? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. Someone who did not have a T.V. could have as well bought it. MR BERGER To do what with? MR MKWANAZI He would buy it and buy the T.V. set later on. MR BERGER How many people had T.V. sets in the hostel? MR MKWANAZI I would not say everybody in the hostel had a television. I think according to my knowledge ten if not eleven people owned television sets within the hostel. MR BERGER Why did you not steal anything else, why just a video? MR MKWANAZI I knew that video machines are very expensive when you buy them from the shops so when selling it I would sell it at a very high price so that I can buy food and clothes. MR BERGER So you hoped to make a lot of money from this video machine? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And isn't it also so that you couldn't carry anything else because you were now carrying a video machine so it would have been a bit difficult to steal other stuff? MR MKWANAZI That is correct, I wanted this video. MR BERGER You must have been very upset the next day when Mr Mkhize and Damara Xongo said you must burn the video machine? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Would it surprise you that - or are you surprised because you were present that Mr Mkhize doesn't tell the Committee that he gave any order to burn the goods? MR MKWANAZI I did not hear an order to burn the bloodstained clothes I only know an order to burn stolen goods which is microwave ovens, television sets and video machines. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkwanazi, that is not the question you are being asked. The question is are you surprised that Mr Mkhize, when he gave evidence before this Committee, did not mention the fact that he had given orders that stolen items such as your video machine be burned? MR MKWANAZI It really surprised me. MR BERGER Where was this order given and how was it given? MR MKWANAZI It was after the attack. We were told that the police were outside to come and search and we were told we should burn the stolen goods to hide the evidence. MR BERGER Are you talking now about the day after the attack, the 18th June 1992? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Round about what time in the morning was it when this order was given? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember the time but it was day. MR BERGER Was it in the morning? MR MKWANAZI It was not in the morning it was just towards midday, round about 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock but not in the morning. MR BERGER And where were you when this order was given? MR MKWANAZI I was at the stadium. MR BERGER Alright, so if I understand your evidence correctly, what happened was you woke up that morning very pleased with yourself that you now had a video machine and you were going to make lots of money. The whole morning went by and nothing happened and then at some point everybody was called to the stadium, would that be right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Did the siren go off again and then everyone went to the stadium? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. Others were just walking towards the stadium. MR BERGER Then everybody congregated in the stadium, it's now about midday and Mr Mkhize and Damara Xongo address the men? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Only the men, women didn't come? MR MKWANAZI They were not there. MR BERGER Why not? MR MKWANAZI I believe women were not needed to go to Boipatong, they were not needed as well in our meeting, it was a secret that was going to be discussed, only men were allowed, women were not allowed to hear what men were discussing. MR BERGER But how did the women know not to come to the stadium that morning? You see the night before we've heard when the siren went off all the women went to the stadium then they were told to go back to their rooms. Now the day after the attack the siren goes off again and yet the women don't go to the stadium? MR MKWANAZI I believe the siren was calling the men who went to Boipatong for an attack. Those who did not take part were not needed, I'm referring to women. MR BERGER And the women who didn't know what happened the night before because they were sent away from the stadium, they just knew when the siren went off the following day they're not needed again at the stadium? MR MKWANAZI They would not come to the stadium. MR BERGER And at this meeting now where Mr Mkhize and Mr Xongo addressed the residents was Themba Khosa present? MR MKWANAZI On the 18th he was present. MR BERGER And then at that meeting Mr Mkhize said all the goods which we have looted from Boipatong must now be burned, right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And Mr Themba Khosa was present when he said that, correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And then all the men went back to their rooms and fetched the goods which they had stolen from Boipatong and brought them back to the stadium where they were burned, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI They did not come with the goods to the stadium. There are these big rubbish bins on the premises of Iscor, we threw those goods into those rubbish bins and they were burned. MR BERGER And after the goods were burned you then went back to the stadium? MR MKWANAZI No. MR BERGER What did you do after the goods were burned? MR MKWANAZI We went to our different rooms. MR BERGER And the meeting was over? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER So when did Themba Khosa say you must cooperate with the police? MR MKWANAZI It was a day after the attack. MR BERGER Before you left the stadium to go and burn your goods? MR MKWANAZI I've got a problem. MR BERGER You've got a problem because the interpretation is not coming through? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR BERGER Just for the record you're speaking English again and understanding it? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR LAX Sorry, if you take your hand off that black box you'll be able to hear better. If you block the signal then you can't hear. MR BERGER I'll repeat the question Mr Mkwanazi. You see what we've established thus far is that there's this meeting in the stadium. Mkhize is there, Damara Xongo is there, Themba Khosa is there and I take it Humphrey Nglovu is also there and at this meeting and in the presence of Mr Themba Khosa, Mr Mkhize and Mr Xongo give orders that the goods stolen from Boipatong must be burned. Correct so far? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And then once those orders are given, the meeting breaks up, the men go back to their rooms, get the stolen loot, take them to the huge bins provided by Iscor and burn the loot? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And after that there's no more meeting? MR MKWANAZI There were subsequent meetings, after this one there were others. MR BERGER So would it be correct to say that at a subsequent meeting Themba Khosa told you to co-operate with the police? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER But at the meeting where Themba Khosa was present when Mkhize and Xongo said burn the goods, at that meeting Themba Khosa did not say cooperate with the police, he just kept quiet and remained there, am I right? MR MKWANAZI Can you repeat your question please? MR BERGER At the meeting of the 18th when Themba Khosa was there with Mkhize, at that meeting Themba Khosa did not say cooperate with the police, at that meeting Themba Khosa just kept quiet. MR MKWANAZI He said many things, some I cannot remember. MR BERGER So Mkhize spoke and Themba Khosa also spoke at that meeting? MR MKWANAZI That is correct, the two of them addressed the meeting. MR SIBANYONI Sorry Mr Berger. Mr Mkwanazi, on what day did Themba Khosa say you should cooperate with the police? MR MKWANAZI It was on the 18th. MR SIBANYONI When were these subsequent meetings you are talking about, were they on the same day or sometime thereafter? MR MKWANAZI Days thereafter. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Mr Mkwanazi, you were asked by your counsel whether you were a victim of violence. You said yes. Do I understand it correctly from your statement at 141 that the violence you're referring to is an attack upon you in Sibokeng? MR MKWANAZI No, that is in Sharpeville. MR BERGER I just want to get your evidence accurate on the meeting of the 10th June, you remember you told the Committee this morning about a meeting you attended on the 10th June, a week before the attack? MR MKWANAZI Yes I do. MR BERGER You said at that meeting Mr Mkhize spoke and he said "we should get ready for an attack" but no date for the attack was set, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER At that meeting on the 10th June he said, this is Mr Mkhize, he said that "we should take revenge against the people of Boipatong who killed us because they didn't want us in their township." Is that what he said? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Do you walk with a limp? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Mr Peens, you say you don't know him, you recall on Friday he was - there were two men standing at the bottom of the stage, there was one with white hair who is referred to as Rooikop and then there was another man standing next to him, darker in complexion than Rooikop, do you remember that? MR MKWANAZI I remember that. MR BERGER The darker one is Peens. Are you saying that before Friday of last week you had never seen that man before? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER If you had been in a Casspir with him on the night of the attack you would have seen him, correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct but because we were not in Casspirs I did not see him. MR BERGER How do you know that Mr Nosenga was not in the hostel before the attack? MR MKWANAZI I believe I knew every member of Kwamadala Hostel who came from the township, there were not many of us. I knew them, well except those who come from the homelands, there were many in number, I did not know some of them but some of them I did know. On that day I did not see him. MR BERGER So when did Mr Nosenga come to the hostel? MR MKWANAZI After the attack. MR BERGER The attack was on the 17th June, when did Mr Nosenga come to the hostel? MR MKWANAZI It might be somewhere around August. MR BERGER And you were arrested when? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember the month. MR BERGER Approximately? MR MKWANAZI It might be two months, three months even four months after the incident, it was quite some time before I was arrested. MR BERGER Besides the meeting you have spoken about on the 10th June as well as the meeting in the stadium on the 17th June immediately before the attack are you saying there were no other meetings at the hostel prior to the attack where an attack or a possible attack was discussed? MR MKWANAZI There were meetings before the attack, yes there were meetings. MR BERGER But you never attended any? MR MKWANAZI Some of the meetings I did attend and some not. MR BERGER Did you attend a meeting on the Sunday before the attack, that's the 14th June? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And Mr Themba Khosa addressed that meeting as well, is that right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And he said at that meeting if people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them? MR MKWANAZI I did not hear that part but I do know that the people from Boipatong wanted to come to the hostel to attack us. The police stopped that because when we heard of a possible attack from the township we went out and we met at the police at the robots. They stopped us, we went back. MR BERGER You are talking about an incident which took place after the attack, am I right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER I am talking about a meeting on the Sunday before the attack, the one where Themba Khosa was also present, about three days before the attack. What did Themba Khosa say at that meeting? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember what Themba Khosa said but he was addressing the meeting though. MR BERGER What about the meeting two weeks before the attack on the 3rd June 1992, did you attend that meeting? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember the date but I was attending the meetings. No I do not remember the dates, I did attend some meetings. MR BERGER I'm talking now about two weeks before the attack. At that meeting Themba Khosa was also present, am I correct? MR MKWANAZI I remember the meeting that was held on the 10th, this is the meeting I attended and I still remember. MR BERGER So you don't remember what happened at the meeting of the 3rd June 1992? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember. MR BERGER And so you wouldn't be able to dispute whether Themba Khosa was present at that meeting as well? MR MKWANAZI I would not dispute that. MR BERGER You were not employed whilst living in the hostel? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Were any of your friends employed whilst living in the hostel? MR MKWANAZI No. MR BERGER Did you know Jabogo Magubane? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER You were friendly with him before the attack? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER In fact you were all part of the same circle, you Jabogo, Timothy, Dondo? MR MKWANAZI Yes we all stayed in one room. MR BERGER And you never went out stealing to get money and to get stuff to survive? MR MKWANAZI No. MR BERGER The two army vehicles that you saw driving along the main road from the direction of Vanderbijlpark, remember? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR BERGER You say at some point along that main road they turned to face your group as you were congregating in the veld outside Boipatong, this is now after the attack? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR BERGER And they shone their lights on y our group? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER How did they try to stop you from crossing the road or whatever? MR BERGER The cars parked exactly where we were supposed to cross. Themba Mabote then shot at them and they moved through the point where we were supposed to cross and we managed then to cross to Kwamadala Hostel. MR BERGER So the only thing that the soldiers did you stop you was to park in front of you, face you and shine their lights at you? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER How many shots did Themba Mabote fire at the soldiers? MR MKWANAZI Many times. MR BERGER Approximately? MR MKWANAZI It was a series of gunfire, I would not be in a position to count or estimate as to how many times he shot. What I remember he had an AK47 rifle in his possession. MR BERGER So he fired an AK47 at the military vehicles? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. I do not know whether he hit them or the bullets just went - just passed by but he was shooting in their direction. MR BERGER And was he the only member of the attackers who shot at the military? MR MKWANAZI I do not know whether he was the only one who shot but as I've said there was a series of gunfire. MR BERGER He was the only one you saw shooting? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER You didn't see anyone else shooting? MR MKWANAZI Except in the township, inside the township I saw Damara and Mkhize shooting. MR BERGER Yes, now I'm talking about at that point in time in the veld outside Boipatong. You didn't see anyone other than Themba Mabote shooting at the military? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And the military vehicles then turned to face Sebokeng and drove away? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER They didn't stop at the robots? MR MKWANAZI They were stopping at the robots. The other one was in the front, the other ...[indistinct] and they drove in a convoy to Sebokeng. MR BERGER As you were crossing the road they drove beyond the robots towards Sebokeng? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER And so then it was easy for you to return to the hostel because there were no soldiers in your way and you re-entered through the main gate? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER You say it's not correct that Casspirs transported some of the attackers to Boipatong and assisted with transporting the loot from Boipatong back to Kwamadala, that is not correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Were you a friend of Victor ...[indistinct] MR MKWANAZI No. MR BERGER But you know he was called the Vaal Monster? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Prince Vanana Zulu, he was the most senior IFP leader in the hostel, would you agree with that? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER His word was law in the hostel? MR MKWANAZI He was the leader of the Indunas. MR BERGER Nothing happened in the hostel without his permission, am I right? MR MKWANAZI There were many leaders in Kwamadala Hostel. MR BERGER Was Prince Vanana Zulu the most important leader at Kwamadala Hostel, yes or no? MR MKWANAZI Yes he was most honoured. MR BERGER And if he said something should happen then it happened, correct? MR MKWANAZI He used to address meetings of the elderly people and there was also a separate meeting of the youth. Mr Buthelezi conducted the meetings that included the youth. He chaired the meetings of the elderly people. MR BERGER I'm asking you a simple question, if Mtwana Zulu said that something should happen, he gave an order in the hostel, that order was carried out, am I right? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER If he gave an order and said something should not happen, that order was obeyed and it did not happen. MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR BERGER Prior to June 1992 when was the last time that Prince Vanana Zulu had gone home on leave? MR MKWANAZI I only noticed that he was not present within the hostel, it was after the attack when I saw him getting out of a taxi. When did he come back from KwaZulu Natal, I do not know. MR BERGER When was the time before this that Prince Vanana Zulu had taken leave, do you know? CHAIRPERSON Do you know when Mr Zulu went to KwaZulu Natal prior to the attack? MR MKWANAZI No. MR BERGER So how do you know that Prince Vanana Zulu was not present in the hostel on the day of the attack? MR MKWANAZI I believe I would have seen him in all the meetings of Kwamadala. His house was located next to the gate. One would have seen him because that was the gate that we used for exit and entrance. MR BERGER And if someone were to say that Prince Vanana Zulu was in Boipatong at the time of the attack would you say that that is not correct or would you say it's possible but you never saw him? MR MKWANAZI I dispute that. Had he been around Boipatong I would have seen him, I would have seen him again at the meeting. MR BERGER Thank you Mr Mkwanazi, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS No questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. How often did Mr Themba Khosa come to meetings at the hostel? CHAIRPERSON Do you want him to tell us the exact number of times that Themba Khosa came to the meeting? MR STRYDOM Not exact, I want an estimate of how regularly did Mr Themba Khosa come to the hostel to address meetings. CHAIRPERSON Then put that question. MR STRYDOM Yes the question is how regularly did Themba Khosa come to the hostel to address the people? MR MKWANAZI Mr Khosa used to come regularly to the meetings. MR STRYDOM Before the attack on Boipatong do remember when was the last occasion when Mr Khosa came to the hostel to address the people? MR MKWANAZI Can you please repeat your question? MR STRYDOM Before the attack I want to know if you can remember the last occasion before the attack Mr Khosa came to the hostel to address the residents? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember when it was, I do not know the date. MR STRYDOM Can you give any estimate whether it was weeks, days or months before that? MR MKWANAZI It might be a month before. MR STRYDOM At any meeting which you attended did you see Mr Khosa together with the person that stood there, Mr Peens, on Friday that he stood there? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM Mr Chairperson just bear with me, I'm just taking an instruction? I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Ms Pretorius? MS PRETORIUS I have no further questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr da Silva? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA May it please you Mr Chairman. Mr Mkwanazi, you testified that Mr Mabote had an AK47 in his possession and he fired this AK47 at the military vehicles. You say there was a series of gunfire. Is it your recollection that Mr Mabote was shooting single shots or was the AK47 semi-automatic? MR MKWANAZI He was shooting on automatic. MR DA SILVA And while he was shooting on automatic were there several bursts of fire at the military vehicles or was it a single burst of fire? MR MKWANAZI An automatic will shoot many times. MR DA SILVA But if you think back of the incident was there a burst of fire and then a pause and then another burst of fire? Was this what happened on several occasions or was there just one continuous burst of fire? MR MKWANAZI The gun was on automatic. MR DA SILVA And he was just shooting in the direction of the military vehicle? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR DA SILVA Can you recall more or less what time in the evening this incident took place? MR MKWANAZI I would not remember the time sir. MR DA SILVA Now I understand your evidence to be that the vehicles parked directly opposite the steel footbridge that leads to the main road where the group eventually crossed, is that correct? MR MKWANAZI That is correct, that's where we were supposed to cross, that's a small bridge. MR DA SILVA My instructions are that the military vehicle that was there in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard never stopped opposite the footbridge. Do you have any comment? MR MKWANAZI The vehicles that I saw on the 17th June stopped at that bridge, that's when Themba Mabote shot in their direction. They were removed from our way and they drove off to the direction of Sebokeng. We managed then to cross the bridge. MR DA SILVA Now Mr Timothy Stalz Mazibuku you say moved in the same circle as what you did. What I want to know, did he form part of that group that crossed that bridge when the military vehicles were there, was he part of the same group? MR MKWANAZI I would say yes. Remember we had split into groups now some people were still coming to join the group, some were right behind. MR DA SILVA I would state to you that he was part of the same group because his evidence was that he was standing next to Mr Mabote when he fired the firearm. Would you dispute that? MR MKWANAZI I would not dispute that, I would not confirm that, we were many. I did not go there to inspect as to who was standing next to who. MR DA SILVA Why I'm asking you this question, Mr Mkwanazi, is that Mr Mazibuku's recollection of the events is different from yours. He says that this vehicles or the vehicles approached close to the group and they were about thirty metres away and then they turned around and drove away, that they did not come from Vanderbijlpark and stop at the bridge. I don't understand his evidence to be that. Do you have any comment in that regard? MR MKWANAZI It might have been that he was right at the back but I still say I saw the vehicles that approached from Vanderbijlpark. MR DA SILVA Now your evidence is that these vehicles drove away in the direction of Sebokeng. If I put it to you that these vehicles drove to the gate of the hostel and at later stages fired canisters of gas into the marsh, you won't be able to dispute that would you? MR MKWANAZI That is correct, I would not dispute that. When they arrived we were already inside Kwamadala. MR DA SILVA I don't have further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Thank you sir. MS PRETORIUS No re-examination. CHAIRPERSON Did I ask you Mr Mapoma if you had any questions? MR MAPOMA ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mkwanazi, you say Prince Vanana Zulu was not at the hostel because if he was there you would have seen him during the meetings. My question is if he was there and he didn't attend the meeting can you still dispute that he was not there? MR MKWANAZI There would never be a meeting in his absence. He was a respectable man and he would attend meetings of elderly people and address them. He would be there. MR SIBANYONI Now we understand all men were called to the hostel. Are you in a position to say everyone attended the meeting of the 17th at the stadium? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR SIBANYONI Was Mkambalani Buthelezi also at the meeting of the 17th at the stadium? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember. Mkambalani Buthelezi was a sickly person, I don't know whether he was suffering from T.B. or he had ulcers but he was sick. He was the leader of the Youth Brigade. Now he at times would not attend our meetings. Instead Thembu would chair all these meetings. As I said he was a sickly person. MR SIBANYONI You can't say whether or not he was there, you can't vow and say definitely he was not at the meeting? MR MKWANAZI I did not see him on the 17th, I do not have certainty as to whether he was there. MR SIBANYONI As we are told that there are many people staying at the hostel is it possible that maybe Nosenga was also there but because of the fact that there were many people it was possible that you could not have identified him or saw him? MR MKWANAZI I mentioned earlier on that I knew all the people who came from the township, we were not many. MR SIBANYONI How many men stayed at the hostel during June 1992, approximately? MR MKWANAZI Between 300 and 400, this was a massive hostel. MR SIBANYONI And you knew each and everyone of those people? MR MKWANAZI No. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sigodi? ADV SIGODI On the day after the attack when you were told that you must burn the goods, were the police present at the hostel? MR MKWANAZI On the 18th? ADV SIGODI Yes. MR MKWANAZI There were policemen but they were not allowed to get into the hostel they were outside. ADV SIGODI In other words they couldn't have heard the instruction to burn the goods, is that what you are saying? MR MKWANAZI They did not hear that. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. You said that you couldn't say whether Themba Khosa had said anything about destroying evidence because you came late to a meeting. Do you remember that? MR MKWANAZI I remember. MR LAX Which meeting did you come late to? MR MKWANAZI It is the meeting of the 18th June. MR LAX When you came into the meeting was he already talking? MR MKWANAZI Correct. MR LAX And who spoke after him? MR MKWANAZI It was Mr Mkhize. MR LAX So after he had told you to cooperate with the police Mkhize then said you must burn all these items? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR LAX And he was present when that was said? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR LAX Now what was the meeting on the Sunday about? MR MKWANAZI Give me the date for that Sunday please? MR LAX The attack was on the Wednesday which was the 17th so the Sunday would be the 14th and in reply to Mr Berger's questions you indicated you were present at that meeting but you couldn't remember what Themba Khosa said at that meeting. Do you remember now? MR MKWANAZI Yes I remember. MR LAX Now what I'm asking you is what was that meeting called for, why was that meeting called? MR MKWANAZI At that meeting Mr Khosa was addressing the people in Zulu and I am not that good in Zulu. Mr Mkhize addressed us on the issue of going to Boipatong. MR LAX So at that meeting on the 14th you now knew you were going to Boipatong but you didn't know when you would go to Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI We were told about an attack but when we were not told. MR LAX Yes, but you were told now where the attack was going to be? MR MKWANAZI Are you referring to the address by Mr Mkhize? Mr Mkhize said we would attack and we must be ready but he did not tell us when. MR LAX We are talking about the meeting on the Sunday, not the meeting on the 10th. You said that on the meeting of the 10th Buthelezi told you about getting ready for an attack. We're now talking about the Sunday which is four days later. MR MKWANAZI That's not Buthelezi, it's Mkhize. MR LAX I didn't say anything about Buthelezi. I beg your pardon, I'm sorry, I mean Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkwanazi you told us that you were present at a meeting that was on a Sunday? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You say at that meeting Mkhize talked about - is that the meeting at which Mkhize talked about the attack on Boipatong? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR LAX So the point I was putting to you was on the Sunday you now knew that Boipatong was the place you were going to attack? MR MKWANAZI That is correct. MR LAX Because your previous evidence said to us that until the 17th you didn't know where, which place you were going to attack or when? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR LAX Well just explain to us why you made a mistake? MR MKWANAZI Mr Mkhize addressed us and he told us that we should be ready for an attack because we were being killed as members of the IFP. He said we should be in a position to go and revenge in other words attack. He said we were being burned, we were being killed all the time. He said we should go into Boipatong and teach the people a lesson, a lesson that killing a person is not a child's play, we are also in a position to do the same. MR LAX And that was at the Sunday meeting? MR MKWANAZI Yes. MR LAX Just one last thing, Mr Mazibuko in his evidence says he saw Mr Mabote shooting with a small gun not an AK47. Are you sure it was an AK47? MR MKWANAZI I am sure he had an AK47 and a shotgun on that day, in his possession he had an AK47. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Anything arising from that? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. The meeting of the 10th you testified about already, do you know what day of the week that was? MR MKWANAZI I do not remember. MR STRYDOM Now the meeting of the 10th when Mr Mkhize said that you must be ready for attack but he didn't give the dates or the place ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, is this going to take us any further? I mean the man's - his evidence is on record. MR STRYDOM I just want to establish if Mr Khosa was present at that meeting. The meeting of the 10th, was Mr Khosa there or not? MR MKWANAZI No. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM MS PRETORIUS Nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MR DA SILVA I don't have any questions. MS TANZER None. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? Mr Malindi? Yes Mr Berger? MR BERGER No questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mkwanazi you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON The time now Mr Strydom is about ten past 1, shall we start with your next witness at 2 when we resume? MR STRYDOM That will be convenient. CHAIRPERSON Could you indicate to us who will be the next witness? MR STRYDOM Moses Mthembu. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. We will rise, we will come back at 2 o'clock.