amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-01-26 VEREENIGING 7 PETRUS MDINISO AM 6127/97 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53126&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99011827_vrn_990126ve.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is your next witness? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the next applicant is Petrus Mdiniso. CHAIRPERSON We will take the tea adjournment and return at a quarter to twelve. MR STRYDOM Thank you, Mr Chairperson. INTERPRETER Chairperson, may I please make an announcement? CHAIRPERSON Yes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON What language are you going to speak? Please give us your full names. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not activated. THULANI PETROL MDINISO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may be seated. Yes, Mr Strydom? EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mdiniso, I want to show your signature on page 195, that's the signature that appears on the Form 1: Amnesty Application. Is that your signature? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM This document has been canvassed with you and translated to you, do you confirm the contents? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM Now what you state in this document is that you were not part of the attack on Boipatong and you only heard about the attack after the attack, is that correct? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM And you maintain that you were incorrectly found guilty at the trial of this matter? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM Now there's an annexure to your application stating the political objective of the attack, do you say that this is not applicable to your application? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM You furthermore gave certain answers after a request for further particulars was shown to you, do you confirm the correctness of the answers as they appear on page 198 and 199? MR MDINISO Will you please repeat the question? MR STRYDOM During consultations certain questions were put to you and you gave certain answers and these answers were translated to you, do you confirm the answers as they were translated to you? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM You also signed an affidavit, and your signature appears on page 201, is that your signature? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM Do you admit the contents of this affidavit as it has been translated to you? MR MDINISO Yes, I agree, though someone was translating to me. Perhaps there are mistakes, there could be some mistakes because someone was translating for me. MR STRYDOM Yes, it's short affidavit so I'll just translate it to you now and you can just confirm the contents "During June 1992 I was staying at Kwamadala hostel." MR MDINISO Yes. MR STRYDOM "I moved in during 1990." MR MDINISO Correct. MR STRYDOM "This was after all Zulus were chased out of other hostels and townships." INTERPRETER Can the speaker please repeat the last statement? MR STRYDOM "That was after all Zulus were chased out of other hostels and townships." MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM "Supporters of the IFP were killed by ANC supporters." MR MDINISO That is correct. MR STRYDOM "It was not out of my own free will that I moved to Kwamadala." MR MDINISO That is correct. MR STRYDOM "I was forced to do so for my own safety." MR MDINISO That is correct. MR STRYDOM "On the 17th of June 1992, it was my day off." MR MDINISO That is correct. MR STRYDOM "I stayed here at the hostel." MR MDINISO Correct. MR STRYDOM "I did not know anything about an attack which took place, which would have taken place." MR MDINISO Correct. MR STRYDOM "I went to go and sleep at approximately 8 o'clock pm." MR MDINISO That is correct. MR STRYDOM "I stay in a room very far from the stadium. I didn't hear the alarm or anything of that nature. The next day at work, I heard on the radio about the attack." MR MDINISO Correct. MR STRYDOM "I know many people in Boipatong and also stayed there some time ago." MR MDINISO I did not get the last statement. MR STRYDOM "I know many people in Boipatong and stayed there some time ago." MR MDINISO Correct. MR STRYDOM "I feel very sorry for those who died and who were injured. I was falsely implicated at the trial and was also wrongly convicted. I nevertheless ask for amnesty but that does not mean that I did anything wrong." Is that the affidavit? MR MDINISO Correct. MR STRYDOM The process of amnesty has been explained to you, is that correct? MR MDINISO The process of amnesty, I did not have any idea as far as this is concerned, but I heard when Buthelezi and Mthembu were being questioned. I did not have any idea. I only got the idea when I was listening as they were questioned. I came here to clear my name in front of the people of Boipatong and to mention that I was falsely implicated. I was convicted, falsely convicted by the Judge. I knew very well that my hands are clean. I know nothing about the Boipatong incident. ADV SIGODI Could you speak slowly so that we can get the interpretation clearly because if you speak fast we can't get it. MR STRYDOM You were asked if you want to withdraw your application, you said no, you want to carry on with the application, why? MR MDINISO My reasons are as follows: I am prepared to tell the people of Boipatong that I am innocent, I know nothing about the attack. That is the reason why I came here, because I know this place as a place to tell the truth. I wanted to come here and tell the people that I know nothing about the Boipatong incident. I as sick on that particular day, I had flu. I was not feeling well, and that is why I had to go to bed as early as 8 o'clock. MR STRYDOM I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM MS PRETORIUS No questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS MR DA SILVA I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA MS TANZER Are you aware of the existence of Andries Nosenga? MR MDINISO I don't even know him, I only hear about him here for the first time. MS TANZER So you don't know whether he was staying at the hostel or not? MR MDINISO I won't even mention anything about him. I don't even know what to say about him because I don't even know him. MS TANZER No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi? MR MALINDI Chairperson, just one question. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon, do you want Mr Berger to start? MR MALINDI I would be ...(indistinct) to say it that way, Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mdiniso, if I understand you correctly, you did not attend any meeting prior to the 17th of June 1992 at which there was talk about an attack, am I right? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. The only meeting that I attended is only one where there was a complaint when a car was burnt down. A gentleman by the name of ...(indistinct) Sibiya and the other one whose surname was Zulu, they were together. Their car was burnt down at Sondela. I heard the complaints from the people and previously people had died and people were complaining because they were dying. That was the only meeting that I attended. MR BERGER The only question is, at no meeting at which you attended was there ever any talk about an attack on anyone, am I right? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER I just want to ask you one question or I want to concentrate just on one sentence in your affidavit at page 201 where you say "I know many people in Boipatong." At the time of the attack, did you know many people in Boipatong? MR MDINISO Do you mean during the attack? Will you please repeat your question? MR BERGER I'm not suggesting that you were part of the attack, I'm saying, at that time, June 1992, did you know many people in Boipatong? MR MDINISO No, I would request you not to refer to me about the time of the attack. What I said is that I knew people from Boipatong prior to the attack. Just before the politics I grew up in that place and I knew quite a number of people. Please don't refer me to the attack because I was not present but I know the people from Boipatong. MR BERGER Mr Mdiniso, please listen to my question. You say in your affidavit, which was signed by you in 1998, June 1998, you say "I know many people in Boipatong." Is that correct? MR MDINISO The people who are residing at Boipatong, I know the residents, the real residents of Boipatong, not people from KwaZulu Natal. I was also a tenant at Boipatong. I did not own a house there, I was just a tenant. MR BERGER And these people that you know who are living in Boipatong, they were also living in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right? MR MDINISO You mean during the attack? There was a meeting at Zone 7 on the 22nd. I'm not sure whether the month was July because that place is far away. On our way from that meeting, when we went to the hostel at Sebokeng, the hostel was closed. They told us the Zulus were not welcome. The following day on the 23rd, there were pamphlets that were distributed all over the place, in the houses in the townships. The pamphlets were saying that the Zulus were not welcome. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mdiniso, please, you're going on a long story. You're being asked a very simple question. it's really a simple matter. Mr Berger is asking you that as at June 1992, is it correct that you knew many people who were involved or were living in Boipatong, simple as that, yes or no? MR MDINISO Yes, I knew people there. MR BERGER Thank you, Mr Mdiniso, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Just one question. During 1992, you were working at Iscor, is that correct? MR MDINISO Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM And you worked shifts, is that right? MR MDINISO Yes, I was working three shifts. MR STRYDOM And some people that worked at Iscor lived in Boipatong, is that correct? MR MDINISO The people who were working for Iscor, among them there were people who were residing at Boipatong. MR STRYDOM No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM MS PRETORIUS No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MS PRETORIUS MR DA SILVA No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA MS TANZER No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA ADV SIGODI No questions, Chair. MR SIBANYONI No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mdiniso, you do understand that this Committee only has the power to grant amnesty to persons who have committed an offence with a political motive. MR MDINISO Yes, that is what I got to understand when I arrived here. CHAIRPERSON As we understand your evidence you never committed any act of violence in relation to the Boipatong massacre. MR MDINISO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The only reason you came to this Committee was to tell the people of Boipatong that you are innocent? MR MDINISO Yes, that is the reason, because in Court I was found guilty. I wanted to apply for amnesty and to clear my name. Among my brothers and the people of Boipatong they should know that I'm innocent. CHAIRPERSON What was done by the High Court cannot be undone by this Committee. If you persist in your innocence, only the Appeal Court has the power to undo what was done by the High Court. Do you understand that? MR MDINISO Yes, I do understand that. CHAIRPERSON We can only consider an application if you consider yourself to be guilty of the massacre or any act in relation to the massacre at Boipatong. Do you understand that? MR MDINISO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON What you are telling us is that you didn't do anything wrong? MR MDINISO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything arising? MR STRYDOM No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Chairperson, may I ask one question? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALINDI Mr Mdiniso, did you share your room with anyone at Kwamadala? MR MDINISO Yes, there were some people. MR MALINDI Who were they? MR MDINISO It was Benseni Ntuli. MR MALINDI Anyone else? MR MDINISO The other one's surname was Shandu. I cannot remember the first name, perhaps it was Aaron Shandu or something else, but I cannot remember. MR MALINDI You say perhaps it was who Shandu? MR MDINISO Yes. MR MALINDI Was there anyone else in your room? MR MDINISO No, there was no-one else. MR MALINDI Mr Ntuli, was he the one who helped with security at the gate? MR MDINISO Yes. MR MALINDI Now on the evening of the 17th of June 1992, did you become aware that these two other gentlemen left your room during that night or not? MR MDINISO Pardon? MR MALINDI Mr Ntuli and Shandu, were they in your room when you went to sleep? MR MDINISO On that particular day they left me in the house. Shandu was going to be on duty and Ntuli was going to be duty. They were about to start at 6 o'clock. They left me in the house. MR MALINDI The following morning, what time did you go to work yourself? MR MDINISO I was to report at work at 2 o'clock. I moved from Kwamadala hostel at about half past 12 on my way to work. MR MALINDI And that was two in the afternoon? MR MDINISO Yes. MR MALINDI And when you woke up in the morning, did you hear anyone walking around ordering residents to take out things that were stolen from Boipatong, to be burnt? MR MDINISO No, I did not hear that, I heard that for the first time here. MR MALINDI And before you left for work, did you become aware that there was an attack in Boipatong, from your co-residents or not? MR MDINISO No, I only got that information at work. I heard that people died at Boipatong, they were attacked. That is the information that I got when I was at work. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger? MR BERGER No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS Nothing thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mdiniso, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED