amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-01-26 VEREENIGING 7 SIPHO ALFRED BUTHELEZI AM 6132/97 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53127&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99011827_vrn_990126ve.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the next applicant I intend calling is Sipho Buthelezi, but I ask for the matter to stand down for a short time. I must still consult with him and just go through his affidavits. Unfortunately he was not here yesterday. He phoned my attorney and gave an explanation why he could not be here, but I see he is here today. I didn't say that I'm going to call him, I said Paulos Mbatha but I think I'll also call Paulos Mbatha probably later today, so he will still be called. I ask for a short adjournment. CHAIRPERSON How much? MR STRYDOM Twenty minutes. CHAIRPERSON Well, Mr Strydom, is there any reason why you have not consulted with your client? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I've consulted with all my clients but just to make it more convenient for the Committee, I must go through their statements before they testify, just to get clarity on each and every aspect. I would submit that it shortens the proceedings if I can go through with the interpreter before he testifies, just before the witness testifies. I've used all the other adjournments during lunch breaks to do consultations up till now, but things went a bit quicker today, so I'm in a bit of trouble at this stage so I will ask for a short adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Have you consulted? You are now left with Sipho Buthelezi is it? MR STRYDOM Yes, Sipho Buthelezi. CHAIRPERSON Sibongeleni Mkhize. MR STRYDOM Mkhize I must inform the Committee is not present. I don't about his whereabouts, neither does my attorney. He hasn't been present since the beginning of this session. He's never been here, he never came. CHAIRPERSON Okay, is the applicant who said will be dealt with at the close of things? MR STRYDOM I indicated at the beginning that he was not present, he never arrived. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR STRYDOM So the outstanding ones are Sipho Buthelezi, Mbatha and then Kubeka. CHAIRPERSON Right, okay. Have you consulted with Mr Mbatha on the statement? MR STRYDOM Yes, on a previous occasion but not today or yesterday, so I would like a short adjournment to consult with him as well. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Mr Kubeka? MR STRYDOM I've consulted with him on the last occasion, I took his statement. That was during the course of these hearings but not again. CHAIRPERSON Alright, okay. MR STRYDOM A request, can the matter stand down for lunch now till 2 o'clock and then I can consult with three of them then I don't need any further time for any consultations after that? I can consult with the three of them together. CHAIRPERSON That's what we are considering. MR STRYDOM Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, what we propose doing is to allow Mr Strydom to consult with the three remaining applicants and then we will take the lunch adjournment now and allow him to consult with all of the applicants and then we will resume after lunch, do you have any objection to that? MR BERGER No objection, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The time now is about twenty past twelve, should we come back at one thirty? It would be one hour and ten minutes. MR STRYDOM Can I ask until a quarter to two because I'm going to consult with three people. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. Well if that is the case, what do you colleagues say to that request? MR BERGER We've got no problem. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. Well the Committee recognises the fact that we have probably been starting too early and perhaps finishing somewhat late and that may well have prevented you from consulting with your clients. We will adjourn a this stage, take lunch and we will come back at quarter to two. MR STRYDOM Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON And when we come back, we expect at least you to have consulted with all the remaining witnesses and could you also make enquiries if you can, as to what is happening to Xholiseni Sibongeleni Mkhize or ask your instructing attorney to make enquiries from the other co-applicants as to when last he was seen or what his position is. MR STRYDOM Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. May I see all the legal representatives in the Committee shortly after this? We will rise and come back at quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Buthelezi, what language are you going to speak? MR BUTHELEZI Zulu. ADV SIGODI Sorry, I didn't get the middle name. MR BUTHELEZI Alfred. ADV SIGODI Thanks. MR LAX Sorry, Judge, we're not getting any translation in English. SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Strydom? EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Mr Buthelezi, you've signed a Form 1, Amnesty Application, on page 182, is that your signature? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM This document has been shown to you and translated to you, and you've indicated that there is one mistake which you want to rectify and that is contained in paragraph 11(b), is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM That paragraph deals with orders that were given inter alia it reads "Orders were given on the 10th and 17th of June 1992." Is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR STRYDOM When did you move into the hostel for the first time? MR BUTHELEZI On the 17th of June 1992. MR STRYDOM Did you attend any meetings in the hostel prior to the 17th of June 1992? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM I also want to refer you to the annexure to this Form 1. You've indicated to me that you will set out the reasons why you went to Boipatong, in your own words, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM We will deal with that later. First I want to show you page 185 and 186, that is the request for further particulars and your answers are on page 187, 188 and 189. Do you confirm the answers given by you? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM You've indicated to me that you want to add something to the answer contained under point 2.2? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM The question was, with reference to the two groups of attackers "In which one you were" And the answer you've given is: "I cannot remember." MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM You added to that "I think Mkhize." Is that what you wanted to add, Mkhize's group? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM Then I want to refer you to your affidavit on page 190 and your signature on page 192. Is that your signature? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is my signature. MR STRYDOM And do you confirm the contents of that affidavit? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM According to this affidavit, you arrived at the hostel on the date of the attack. MR BUTHELEZI I arrived on that day of the attack. MR STRYDOM Before you moved into Kwamadala hostel, can you just elaborate on what happened in the townships and what motivated you to move to Kwamadala. MR BUTHELEZI What motivated me to move to Kwamadala hostel, I had a quarrel with two young men. One of them was Doti and the other one was Skosana. Doti and Skosana were there at my place of work at Hollywood Inn Nightclub. They wanted to hit Timothy Stals Mazibuko with a handgrenade. I said to them; stop doing what you intend doing. If you want peace or harmony stop that because you are going to injure this person and all of us will be affected and the other people who know nothing about this. They said they wanted to do their job. I said - I drew my firearm, a 9mm that was in my possession and I told them that after finishing what they wanted to do, I was also going to hit them back. The other said; then that means the guy was my friend because I was prepared to do whatever on his behalf. I told them that this person was a customer. The situation was bad and I couldn't live freely in the township thereafter. Whenever I'm walking around the township, I would see people looking at me in a funny way, in a strange way but I knew what the cause was ...(intervention) MR STRYDOM Just to interrupt you there, this Doti and Skosana, were they members of the ANC? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, they were well-known members of the ANC. MR STRYDOM During that period, were you a member of any political party? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM Yes, can you take it from there, what then eventually happened and why did you move to Kwamadala? MR BUTHELEZI The month was April in 1992. Skosana and other young men who were residing in that same area called me Umkgwenbe. I told them to stop calling me with such a name. Skosana referred to me - said I was a dog and he wanted to get something to hit me with. When the other one opened his jacket I saw an AK47. I ran away. They shot at me but they missed me and I went to my place. I told my brothers and I told them that the situation was tense. Just because I'd stopped the guys trying to hit Skosana(sic) with the handgrenade and Skosana influenced the other people against me and they told the other people that I was a member of Inkatha Freedom Party. My situation became worse. On the 16th we couldn't sleep at our respective places because the people were pelting the house with stones. We woke up. I took that firearm, that 9mm. I shot in the air for about five times. The pelting of the stones subsided and my friend Jabulani said to me; it's better for us to leave the place because the people would come and burn us inside the house. We did as Jabulani was saying. I didn't even know that Jabulani was an IFP member. We went to Jabulani's girlfriend and we spent a night there at her place. Jabulani told them about the situation. After that they said we must get into the shack. They locked us inside the shack, they locked from the outside. Jabulani opened the window and tried to talk to them through the window and asked them why were they using a padlock. They said they that the people should think that there was no-one inside the shack. On the 17th we woke up and Jabulani told us to go to a certain place to get better protection. I asked him: "Where are we going?" and he said: "Lets go to Kwamadala hostel. I had no alternative but we had to go to Kwamadala hostel. We went to Kwamadala hostel, it was three of us. MR STRYDOM Who was the third person that went with you and Jabulani? MR BUTHELEZI It was Doctor, the name was Doctor. MR STRYDOM Now when you went to the Kwamadala hostel on that morning or during that day, did you know that there will be an attack on Boipatong that night? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM Then what happened, how did you become aware that there was going to be an attack? MR BUTHELEZI After we had got into this hostel in one of the rooms that was occupied by the young men from the township, we saw our old friend that used to work with us at Hollywood. His name was Serame Mokoena. We had some money, we bought some liquor. We just wanted to calm down our emotions with this liquor. As we were sitting there I went to the toilet to relieve myself. I heard something like a whistle or siren. I heard sound. It looked like some people were talking outside, a number of people were talking outside. I was in the toilet at the time. After relieving myself I went out of the toilet. I enquired as to what was happening, what was this siren for. Serame said it might happen that something is going to happen, maybe there are people who want to come to attack us because the siren wouldn't just ring for nothing. He told us to go to the stadium. We went to the stadium. When we arrived at the stadium, as we were coming in Hollie Bajozi was going out of the stadium. Serame asked him: "Why are you going out so quick, what was happening?". Hollie Bajozi told Serame this: "We were instructed to go and fetch our weapons." As he was telling us that, Mkhize came and he said: "I told you that this is the day that you've been waiting for, you must go and arm yourselves." We left. When I arrived at the house, Doctor gave me a pump-gun. MR STRYDOM Who gave you the pump-gun? MR BUTHELEZI Doctor gave me the pump-gun. After giving me this pump-gun there were two pump-guns left. One was his and one was Jabulani's. We left for the stadium. When we arrived there, Damarra said each and every man must get out. We went to Serele and we came back again - I beg your pardon, he said, if they can go to Serele and come back and find a man inside the hostel, that man would be killed. We left for Serele. We used ntelezi just before going to that. We applied that ntelezi on ourselves and we left through the gate. We were in a hurry. MR STRYDOM Did you know at that stage what was going to happen in Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, it was well-known that the Self Defence Units were to be attacked. MR STRYDOM Did you agree with the idea that Self Defence Units should be attacked? MR BUTHELEZI No, I did not agree. As I was going there I did not agree with the idea. As they said we were going to - if they said that we were going to Zone 12 at Sebokeng, I would be in the forefront but unfortunately we went to this nearest house. We went there, we went under the bridge, we walked behind the nursery ...(intervention) MR STRYDOM Whilst you are in that area, did you see any Casspir vehicles there and did you get into a Casspir vehicle and were you transported to Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM So you said you were by foot, what happened then? MR BUTHELEZI We went past the bridge that was on the tar road. We walked through another footpath through the bridge and we took cover under a big tree. We were told to wait there for the others. They came. We were divided into two groups and we were told that another group should go in front and the other one would follow. In that process we saw a fence from the school that was used to barricade, to close the road, and it was tied up next to a certain pole. We removed that fence, we went through. When we were at the corner, at the road that was used by the taxis, we were told to start with the job. MR STRYDOM Do you remember who told you that? MR BUTHELEZI I was with Serame and I asked him who was the gentleman that was talking. He said to me the gentleman was Damarra. I said fine. MR STRYDOM And what job are you referring to? MR BUTHELEZI The job of attacking. As we were going through on that road, we met with the Self Defence Units at the corner. Damarra started shooting and the others followed those who had firearms. The Self Defence Units shot back. Damarra took another direction with his group, going towards the direction of the shops. I took another direction, taking that same street as we had used as we were coming in. I participated, I also shot at the Self Defence Units. After shooting I left. I shot pointing at the houses, directing at the houses. MR STRYDOM Did you shoot any person in Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM Did you see if anybody got killed in Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI I did not get into the houses, I was just walking in the streets. MR STRYDOM Did you see if anyone of the attackers stole goods in Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I saw them. MR STRYDOM After the attack, what happened to your shotgun? MR BUTHELEZI Damarra instructed me to give him the firearms. He was about to hide them. I asked Serame why is, this gentleman who wants my firearm, where does he say and Serame said this person is also living in that same yard. I gave him my firearm. MR STRYDOM The following day, were you at the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I was there. MR STRYDOM At that time did you know Themba Khosa? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I knew him as I used to see him on TV. MR STRYDOM Did you see him there on the following day? That's now the day after the attack. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I saw him. MR STRYDOM Did you hear him issuing a warning that certain bloody clothes should be burnt? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM Did you see that some of the goods that were stolen in Boipatong got burnt? MR BUTHELEZI Will you please repeat your question, Sir? MR BUTHELEZI Did you see that stolen goods were burnt? MR BUTHELEZI No, I did not see that. MR STRYDOM Do you know Mr Nosenga? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I know him very well. MR STRYDOM Did he share a room with you in the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM Now when you started living in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992, was Mr Nosenga there already or not? MR BUTHELEZI No, he was not there. MR STRYDOM When did he come to the hostel, according to you? MR BUTHELEZI He came after the Boipatong incident. MR STRYDOM Are you certain about that? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I am certain about that. MR STRYDOM Apart from him, can you remember the names of other people that also shared that room? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I can still remember them. MR STRYDOM Can you give the names of the other people? MR BUTHELEZI The first one is Papie. MR STRYDOM Another name if you can. MR BUTHELEZI And Tsanana, Hollie Bajosi. MR STRYDOM Hollie Bajosi was a State witness at the trial, is that right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM Any other names? MR BUTHELEZI Serame Mokoena and Skumbuzo. MR STRYDOM Is that all the names you can remember? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, for now those are the only names that I can remember. MR STRYDOM Before Mr Nosenga moved into the hostel, did you know him? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM When were you arrested for this Boipatong incident? MR BUTHELEZI If I'm not mistaken I think it was on the 25th of September 1992. MR STRYDOM Do you remember the policeman who came here by the name of Peens? MR BUTHELEZI I just saw them for the very first time on Friday. MR STRYDOM Both of them? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you know a policeman by the name of Shaka? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I know him. MR STRYDOM Where do you know Shaka from? MR BUTHELEZI I used to see him at Tekani's garage. MR STRYDOM Whilst you were moving through Boipatong and whilst you were busy with the attack, did you see any police or military vehicles in Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI No, I did not see any military vehicles or police vehicles. MR STRYDOM During the course of that night of the attack, did you see any vehicles at any stage? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR STRYDOM Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS PRETORIUS I have no questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS MR DA SILVA I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Yes, M'am. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER When you arrived at the hostel, who allocated you a room? MR BUTHELEZI If I'm not mistaken I think it was Mr Mthembu. MS TANZER Were you presented to any committee upon your arrival? MR BUTHELEZI No. MS TANZER Were you questioned about your political affiliations when you arrived at the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI Will you please repeat the question, M'am. MS TANZER Were you questioned by anyone about your political affiliations when you arrived at the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI I cannot remember. MS TANZER You were simply given a room and invited into the hostel without any questioning or any interrogation? MR BUTHELEZI I remember when we arrived at the gate, Jabulani issued his card, his membership card, IFP membership card. I think Mr Mthembu asked us something ...(intervention) MS TANZER What time about did you hear the siren? MR BUTHELEZI It was in the evening. MS TANZER Was it the early evening or the late evening? MR BUTHELEZI I think the time was about nine. MS TANZER When you arrived at the stadium, was anybody speaking to you, were there any speeches being made? MR BUTHELEZI No. MS TANZER When you arrived at the stadium, did you notice any weapons lying on the floor or anywhere, to be taken by the hostel residents? MR BUTHELEZI No. MS TANZER Was the pump-gun that you used that night, did that belong to you or did you bring that with Jabulani to the hostel that afternoon? MR BUTHELEZI It was brought by Jabulani in the evening and he said he was giving it to me, it would be mine thereafter. MS TANZER And as you entered the hostel, did they not search you or anything? Did they not try to search for weapons or something? MR BUTHELEZI These three pump-guns, Jabulani left with a guy who was, they left with a guy in a car and they went to fetch them in the hostel. I asked him where did he get the pump-guns, he told me that he had bought the pump-guns from the Sebokeng hostel. MS TANZER How many people would you say attacked Boipatong that night? MR BUTHELEZI Are you talking about the residents of Kwamadala hostel or the people who were attacked? MS TANZER No, the Kwamadala hostel, the attackers. MR BUTHELEZI Plus-minus 300. MS TANZER Did you notice anyone wearing a balaclava on their face or covering their face in any manner that night? MR BUTHELEZI No, no-one was like that. MS TANZER Did you notice any white people participating in the attack? MR BUTHELEZI No. MS TANZER Can you remember when about did Nosenga join the hostel after the attack? MR BUTHELEZI I cannot remember whether he came after weeks or after a month, I just cannot remember. MS TANZER Well when he arrived, was he only able to speak Sotho? MR BUTHELEZI He came to us and he was speaking in Sotho. MS TANZER So how did you communicate with him? MR BUTHELEZI I asked him about his visit, why was he there. He first said to me the people want to burn him in the township because they said he was an IFP member. I asked him what is it that he did that made the people to say that he was an IFP member ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Buthelezi, that's not really the question, the question is you say that Nosenga spoke Sotho. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, he spoke Sotho. MS TANZER Now what you've been asked is how did you communicate with Mr Nosenga. Is that the question, M'am? MS TANZER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you understand the question? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I understand the question. He first greeted us, he said ...(Sotho). That means he was greeting us in Sotho. I noticed that he was a Sotho-speaking person. MS TANZER But my question was, in what language did you communicate with him, how did you talk to him? MR BUTHELEZI I can say I was born here in this Vaal Triangle. I can speak both languages, Sotho and Zulu. MS TANZER So were you conversing with him in Sotho? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MS TANZER What was he relating to you, his reasons for joining the hostel? You were telling us beforehand what he was telling you, can you just tell us again? MR BUTHELEZI When I asked him why he was out of the township, he said the people were saying that he was an IFP member ...(end of tape) washing Hollie Bajosi's car. I don't know what is it that he told the other gentlemen. After a few days I heard Joseph Radebe who was also a witness during the trial, though he did not go to Pretoria, he told me that this person said he was sent by the ANC to try and inspect the place as to where can he plant the bombs. I got a shock because I realised that we were staying with someone who wanted to kill us. I asked him; gentleman, I asked you yesterday your reasons for being here in this hostel. He said no, I was afraid, I was too scared. Then Nosenga was then to be taken to the conference. MS TANZER Are you telling this Committee that he admitted to you that he was an ANC spy sent to plant bombs in the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI I was not alone, he admitted, I was with the other people. MS TANZER Did you discuss the attack with Mr Nosenga when he joined the hostel? Did you relate details of the event of the attack to him? MR BUTHELEZI Joseph Radebe would make an example about someone else in front of him. I think this is where he got some idea. MS TANZER What motive would you then give to Mr Nosenga for alleging that he participated in the attack if he did not participate in the attack? MR BUTHELEZI The motive behind him saying that he was one of the people who participated in this Boipatong incident, perhaps he was regarding himself as a journalist, I don't know, or a newsman, I don't know. MS TANZER Now you've heard the version of Mr Nosenga that I've placed to all your fellow applicants to day, from the meetings that took place leading up to the attack and the attack itself. I don't want to waste this Committee's time any further, so I'm just going to put to you that that is Nosenga's version, that there were policemen at the time assisting in the attack at Boipatong and that he did participate in the attack at Boipatong. What are your comments and your comments regarding his statement? MR BUTHELEZI I dispute that. MS TANZER Well I put it to you, insofar as your version contradicts and differs Nosenga's that he is telling the truth and that you are not completely honest and open with this Committee, what are your comments? MR BUTHELEZI I'm the one who is telling the truth. MS TANZER I have no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, after you became aware of Mr Nosenga's statement that he was an ANC spy and that he had been sent by the ANC to come and plant bombs in the hostel, what steps were taken to isolate Mr Nosenga? MR BUTHELEZI What do you mean, isolate him? MR BERGER Well, were any steps taken against Mr Nosenga? MR BUTHELEZI What steps were taken were that he was taken to Ulundi. MR BERGER How long after the allegation that he was an ANC spy was it until he was taken to Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I did get the question, I'm still thinking. No, I do not remember. MR BERGER Well, was it a week, two weeks, a month? MR BUTHELEZI No, I cannot even begin to estimate. MR BERGER This was shocking news wasn't it, for you to discover that the man who is sleeping in your room is an ANC spy who has come to kill you, and you can't tell the Committee whether he continued to sleep in your room for a week or for a month after you became aware of that allegation. MR BUTHELEZI He was always under our watchful eyes, even though he went to the toilet at night. MR BERGER Is that your answer? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER And then how did you become aware of the fact that he was being taken to Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI A meeting was convened at Kwamadala to the effect that on a particular day people would be going to a conference at Ulundi. MR BERGER Who addressed that meeting? MR BUTHELEZI I cannot recall. I was not quite familiar with the community at the hostel, only a few people. MR BERGER That was a meeting attended by all the residents of the hostel, is that right? MR BUTHELEZI That is correct. MR BERGER And at that meeting it was announced that Mr Nosenga is to be taken to the conference in Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Was Mr Nosenga at that meeting? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, he too was present. MR BERGER So one can assume then that the entire hostel knew about Mr Nosenga and knew about his confession to be an ANC spy. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER And nobody attempted to harm Mr Nosenga in any way, is that right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct, we received an instruction to the effect that we should not harm him. MR BERGER Oh, from whom? MR BUTHELEZI This came from Mr Thembankosi Khumalo. MR BERGER Was that also at a meeting held in the hostel immediately after it became known that Mr Nosenga was an ANC spy? MR BUTHELEZI Would you please repeat the question, Sir? MR BERGER This instruction from Mr Khumalo, was it issued at a general meeting in the hostel immediately after it became known that Mr Nosenga was an ANC spy? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Do you know who went to Ulundi with Mr Nosenga? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, there were people with whom I shared a room who went to Ulundi. MR BERGER Who were they? MR BUTHELEZI Joseph Radebe, Serame Mokoena and Papie Skumbuzo. In my room I think it was myself and a few others or should I say two boys who were twins. MR BERGER Did you go to Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR BERGER So Joseph Radebe, Serame Mokoena and papie Skumbuzo, they went to Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, they did. MR BERGER And when they came back from Ulundi, did they tell you what happened there? MR BUTHELEZI No, they just informed me that Nosenga was put on stage, introduced and he was made to explain what drove him to Kwamadala. MR BERGER He was put on stage at the national conference and made to explain himself? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Was this in front of the top leadership of the IFP? MR BUTHELEZI That's how they told me. MR BERGER And did they tell you what Mr Nosenga said when he was on stage? MR BUTHELEZI They just informed me that Nosenga told the people there that he had been sent by the ANC to infiltrate the hostel and reconnoitre the area to establish where he could plant the bombs. I cannot remember which old man asked him but I think he was asked by an old man as to whether he was still prepared to go back to the ANC, and Nosenga is said to have said no, he's a member of Inkatha. MR BERGER And then what decision - were you informed as to what decision had been taken at conference as to what to do with Mr Nosenga? MR BUTHELEZI No, I was not informed. MR BERGER Well did Mr Nosenga come back to stay in your room? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Did you speak to him about his trip to Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI I asked him in the presence of other how they fared to and fro and he told me that they fared well. MR BERGER Did Mr Nosenga tell you that he had met Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi at the conference? MR BUTHELEZI No, he didn't explain that to me. MR BERGER So as far as you were concerned it was alright for Mr Nosenga to come back and stay in your room, you were quite happy with that? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, because we had realised that he's a nice person. He didn't have to be on his own thinking all the time. MR BERGER So from then on you treated him as a friend? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I would say that. MR BERGER Mr Buthelezi, I want to put it to you that this version of Mr Nosenga admitting that he was an ANC spy who had come to blow up the hostel and kill the hostel residents is a fabrication and it has been concocted by you and some of your fellow applicants who have recently given evidence. MR BUTHELEZI No, we have witnesses who arrived in Nosenga's presence. There are people who can testify in my favour in this regard, people who are no longer at the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Who are those people? MR BUTHELEZI Xhala, or should I say the first one would be Tsalmo, Nomjali Fasibiya ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you know Tsalmo's surname? MR BUTHELEZI No, I don't. CHAIRPERSON Do you know where he stays? MR BUTHELEZI I used to see him at Zone 7. CHAIRPERSON When last did you see him? MR BUTHELEZI Last week. CHAIRPERSON This is Zone 7 where, Sebokeng? MR BUTHELEZI Tzwee is one person who has the full knowledge to this effect. CHAIRPERSON No, you said that you last saw Tsalmo at Zone 7. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON So where? MR BUTHELEZI At the shops. CHAIRPERSON Ja, but which township, in Boipatong, in Sebokeng or ..." MR BUTHELEZI At Sebokeng, Zone 7. CHAIRPERSON You said this was last week? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who is the other person? MR BUTHELEZI Tzwee Bajosi. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR BUTHELEZI That's all. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I've got Salmo, Tzwee, Bajosi, who is the other one? MR BUTHELEZI Nomjali Fasibiya. CHAIRPERSON And where does he stay, Nomjali Fasibiya? MR BUTHELEZI When I asked him last week where he stays, he told me that he stays at the two rooms near Palm Springs. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and Bajosi, where is he? MR BUTHELEZI At his parents' home, Zone 7, Sebokeng. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. You say that Mr Bajosi would be able to come and tell the Committee everything about Mr Nosenga? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I trust that he can come here. MR BERGER Joseph Radebe, is he still alive? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, he is arrested. MR BERGER Where is he now? MR BUTHELEZI The last time I heard he was in Groenpunt, Groenpunt in Stoffberg. MR BERGER Serame Mokoena, where is he? MR BUTHELEZI I have no idea as to whether he is still alive or not. The last time I heard of him he had gone to Parys. MR BERGER Papie? MR BUTHELEZI He too is incarcerated in Sun City. MR BERGER And finally, Skumbuzo? MR BUTHELEZI He cannot be found, he is moving about. MR BERGER This quarrel that you had with Doti and Skosana was in Sebokeng, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Were you friendly with Stals Mazibuko at Kwamadala? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR BERGER Did you see him at Kwamadala? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I did. MR BERGER Did you take your 9mm with you to Kwamadala? MR BUTHELEZI No, we gave it to a boy called Lucky from Everton. MR BERGER Did you think you wouldn't need your gun once you got to Kwamadala? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, it never occurred to me that I might need it. MR BERGER So when you went to Kwamadala, you, Doctor and Jabulani, none of you had guns, is that right? MR BUTHELEZI I would say as far as I'm concerned, Doctor and Jabulani had knowledge about the pump-guns. MR BERGER No, I'm not asking about their knowledge, I'm saying when the three of you entered Kwamadala on the 17th of June 1992, all three of you were unarmed. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER And where is Jabulani and Doctor today? MR BUTHELEZI They died in 1992. MR BERGER Is it correct that you - or let me ask you this, what time did you enter Kwamadala hostel on the 17th of June? MR BUTHELEZI It was round about 12 to 1. MR BERGER Wasn't it about 3 o'clock in the afternoon? MR BUTHELEZI That is my estimation, 12 to 1 is my estimation. MR BERGER At the criminal trial, page 3444 you said you arrived at the hostel at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. MR BUTHELEZI I was not sure because - I am saying that I was not sure because I was angry about what happened to me. MR BERGER So? Because you were angry you said you arrived at the hostel at 3 o'clock in the afternoon? MR BUTHELEZI That was an estimation of time. MR BERGER After you got into the hostel you were allocated a room you say, by Mr Mthembu? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is so. MR BERGER And then you went to your room together with Jabulani and Doctor, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER What did you do between the time you got to your room and the time you heard the siren go off? MR BUTHELEZI We held hands and spoke to some of the gentlemen that we found there. We bought liquor, we sat drinking. MR BERGER And there was no talk that afternoon about an attack on Boipatong, was there? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR BERGER In fact the first indication that you had that something was going on was when you heard the siren? MR BUTHELEZI I asked what this whistle was all about, Serame then told me that we were wanted at the stadium, something might happen. MR BERGER And Doctor and Jabulani were drinking with you and talking throughout the afternoon? MR BUTHELEZI We sat drinking all together to the time that we heard the siren. MR BERGER Well you see, my problem with that is there would then be no time for Doctor and Jabulani to go and fetch the shotguns from Sebokeng hostel. MR BUTHELEZI There was time because at some point Jabulani disappeared. MR BERGER No, you see you said you sat drinking with them the whole afternoon until the siren went off. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is what I've just said. MR BERGER But you also say at some point in the afternoon Jabulani got up and left. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And he left the hostel and he went to Sebokeng hostel, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI I only heard from him when he came back telling me that he was coming back from Sebokeng hostel. MR BERGER And the distance from Kwamadala to Sebokeng hostel is quite far, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is quite a distance. MR BERGER And he returned with two shotguns? MR BUTHELEZI There were three of them. MR BERGER I beg your pardon, three shotguns. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER By himself he fetched three shotguns and brought them back to Kwamadala. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Despite the fact that he too had no knowledge of any planned attack that night, that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that's correct. MR BERGER Are you being honest when you say that you only came to the hostel on the 17th of June and that you had no knowledge whatsoever about a prior attack on Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I am telling the truth. MR BERGER Now when you got to the stadium you had no idea what it was all about, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER What exactly were you told at the stadium? MR BUTHELEZI When we arrived at the entrance point, myself and Serame, that is the entrance point to the arena, we came across Bajosi and we asked him what was happening. Hollie Bajozi then said to Serame; Mkhize said this is the time, the time which you all have been waiting for, that we should go and attack. He then said Mkhize had just said that we should go and fetch our weapons. Indeed, we went to fetch our weapons. As we were talking there, Mkhize spoke as well. MR BERGER And what - sorry ...(intervention) MR BUTHELEZI Mkhize then said that the day of reckoning has arrived, it's about time we launched the attack. We then went for our firearms or our weapons. MR BERGER Did Mr Mkhize say anything else? MR BUTHELEZI I only heard him say what I've just said. I don't know what he said before we arrived at the Arena. MR BERGER Did he say who you were going to attack? MR BUTHELEZI Hollie Bajosi said we were going to attack the Self Defence Units. MR BERGER Did you know why? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I already knew. MR BERGER From whom? MR BUTHELEZI Serame had informed me that they were tired of being burnt all the time. MR BERGER So you knew when you left Boipatong, when you left Kwamadala, that you were only going to attack the Self Defence Units? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER The shotgun that you had was a pump-action, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER The State witness, Mr Moloi, told the trial Court that you were in possession of a pump-action shotgun, so he was correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER And you were lying in the criminal Court? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Mr Moloi also told the criminal Court that the following day he heard that, he heard you say that you had shot a small child in Boipatong, do remember that evidence? MR BUTHELEZI No, I don't. I did not know the State witness at the time. MR BERGER But he knew you because he accurately described what you were carrying in Boipatong. Let me read to you what was put to you at page 3447 of the record. Mr Bajosi has said in Court that he saw there in Boipatong and that you shot at a person, do you remember that? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Is that evidence correct of Mr Bajosi? MR BUTHELEZI That is a lie. MR BERGER You never shot at a person? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Then it goes on. Mr Moloi has testified that the following morning he was in a conversation with you and other people while he was drinking there and others were also drinking and then you said that you had shot a small child, do you remember that evidence? MR BUTHELEZI No, I don't. MR BERGER You say Mr Moloi was not telling the truth? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Because you knew, or you know, and you knew then that small children were not part of the SDUs, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Do you know what happened to your shotgun? MR BUTHELEZI It was taken by Mr Damarra. MR BERGER Yes? MR BUTHELEZI He took it on the 17th, he took it together with the other two shotguns. He brought them back on the following day, which was on the 18th and during which time we heard or we received information that we were going to be attacked by people from Serele. When we came back, at the robots where we took a turn, Mr Damarra took these firearms again, put them in his Skyline and drove away. MR BERGER This is on the 18th? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Mr Damarra Chonco puts three shotguns into the boot of his car, were there other guns in the boot of his car? MR BUTHELEZI His car was a distance from where we were. It was on the side of a wall. MR BERGER But it was inside the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER And there were other weapons in the boot? MR BUTHELEZI I did not get near the Skyline. MR BERGER And then with your three shotguns in his car, he left the hostel and drove away? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And at that time the hostel was surrounded by the police and the army? MR BUTHELEZI The police had not arrived yet and the soldier had not arrived as well. MR BERGER What time of the day on the 18th was this? MR BUTHELEZI It was in the morning. It was after we heard that the Serele people were going to avenge. The time could have been eight, nine or thereabouts. MR BERGER And the people of Boipatong were marching towards the hostel, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI They had said they were going to avenge, that is insofar as rumour is concerned. MR BERGER And how were they turned away? MR BUTHELEZI There were many soldiers and the Stability Unit around the area and they came to us, MR BERGER And it was only after that that Mr Damarra Chonco drove away? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER And at that time the army was already there outside the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI We left the soldiers and the police at the robots. CHAIRPERSON Did you leave the hostel on the 18th to meet these people who were about to attack you? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON You say, did you go as far as the robots? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, we went as far as the robots. MR BERGER After Damarra Chonco drove away with the three shotguns you never saw those shotguns again? MR BUTHELEZI I saw only two of them later and not mine. He said he was going to bring my gun back. MR BERGER What happened to the two that he brought back? MR BUTHELEZI The police confiscated them as exhibit. MR BERGER When did he bring them back? MR BUTHELEZI He brought them back after the soldiers and the police had left. MR BERGER This must have been many days after the attack? MR BUTHELEZI It could have been a week or weeks. MR BERGER Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER When was that? MR BUTHELEZI At the time when we were at the veld. MR BERGER Was it your shotgun that he was burying? MR BUTHELEZI ...(no English translation) MR BERGER Whose shotgun was he burying? MR BUTHELEZI It was his own shotgun. MR BERGER This was after you had left Boipatong but before you returned to Kwamadala. MR BUTHELEZI It was on our way to Boipatong. MR BERGER On your way into Boipatong you saw Jabulani burying a shotgun in the ground? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Before the attack on Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI Jabulani had already passed away at the time, I am the one who buried the shotguns. I did not understand the question. MR BERGER I think you understood the absurdity of your previous answer, but let's proceed. You buried a shogun in the veld on your way to Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI The guns were not hidden at Boipatong but were hidden at Kwamadala hostel. MR BERGER When did you bury a shotgun? MR LAX Sorry, Mr Berger, he keeps talking about guns, not a gun, he's using the plural. MR BERGER Thank you, Mr Lax. All of this flows from a question: "Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun?", and he said: "Yes". Now he says Jabulani didn't bury the shotguns, the shotgun, "I did". Do I understand you correctly, Mr Buthelezi? MR BUTHELEZI I thought you were asking me if I did see Jabulani carrying a shotgun. MR BERGER I'll start again. Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR BERGER At the trial, your counsel put on your behalf a fact that you had seen Jabulani burying a shotgun. And when I say on your behalf, I mean on your, Sipho Buthelezi's behalf it was put, do you remember that? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I do remember that. MR BERGER And you say that is not true? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that was a lie. MR BERGER Did you tell your counsel that, that you saw Jabulani burying a shotgun? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I told him so. I told him so as I was trying to run away from the truth. MR BERGER How many shots did you fire in Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI About three times, I fired about three time. MR BERGER And you fired into houses? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I fired only once, directing to the houses. MR BERGER And the other two times? MR BUTHELEZI I shot, directing my shots towards the SDUs and I shot for the second time in the air. As the other people that were in my company were getting into the house I shot in the air. MR BERGER Why did you shoot into the air? MR BUTHELEZI I was too scared to kill a person. MR BERGER You wanted to kill people, didn't you? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that was the instruction that was coming from Mr Damarra. MR BERGER And you fired into the house because you wanted to kill whoever was in that house, you didn't care who was inside, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI I shot at a certain window, the bullet penetrated the dining-room. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you didn't fire, you fired into the air because you were afraid of killing a human being? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Previously you had threatened to shoot at the people who wanted to throw a handgrenade at Stals Mazibuko. MR BUTHELEZI I knew that they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't hit Mazibuko with a handgrenade. CHAIRPERSON But you did threaten to shoot them. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I tried to threaten them. CHAIRPERSON You told us earlier on that if you had been instructed to go to Sebokeng, you would have been the first one to go there. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I said so. CHAIRPERSON What were you going to do there? MR BUTHELEZI I was going to kill the people who were trying to kill me. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, at page 188 of your further particulars you say the following: Question 6: "I had a shotgun and I fired shots in the direction of the houses and into the air." Is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER At page 191, third last paragraph you say the following "I fired three shots in the first street which we entered. I fired in the direction of the houses and into the air." Is that statement correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER So you fired at more than one house, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI I shot at one house only. MR BERGER You know that with a shotgun that the pellets spray all over the show, it's not just one bullet that comes out of a shotgun, you know that? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I know. MR BERGER So when you fire in the direction of one person you can hit 10 people, you know that? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I know that. MR BERGER And you went spraying shotgun pellets in the first street in which you entered Boipatong, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And the first street that you entered in Boipatong, was at the bottom, the southern side of Boipatong. The first street was Moshweshwe Street, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Though I do not know the name of the street, but it was the street next to the school. MR BERGER Yes, that's Moshweshwe Street, right at the bottom of Boipatong. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER And just at where you came in in that street, Moshweshwe Street, people were killed and in house 666 two people were killed. DISTRESSED AUDIENCE MEMBER MS CAMBANIS Mr Chair, may I be excused from the proceedings for a few minutes? Thank you. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR BERGER And the two people who were killed at 666, Mr Buthelezi, were Anna Sebolai and Percival Sebolai, and Percival Sebolai was shot in the face with a shotgun. Is it correct, Mr Buthelezi, when you say that you didn't see who you were shooting at and you don't know if anyone was killed as a result of your shots? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I am sure that I did not see the person that I hit as I was shooting. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat your answer. MR BUTHELEZI I am saying ...(indistinct) that as I was shooting, directing to the house on that particular street, I am not sure if I did hit someone or not. MR BERGER When you were shooting there were people around you with spears, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Isn't it correct that you went into the house at 666, you and your co-attackers, you shot Percival Sebolai whilst your co-attackers stabbed Anna Sebolai in Moshweshwe Street, the very first street that you entered? Isn't that what happened? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR BERGER Where was Jabulani and Doctor when you ...(intervention) MR BUTHELEZI They disappeared, they just disappeared. MR BERGER So they were not with you in Moshweshwe Street when you fired into the houses, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, they were not there with me. MR BERGER Did you move down to Slovo Park? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, we took that direction. MR BERGER And did you fire shots in Slovo Park? MR BUTHELEZI I did not shoot thereafter. MR BERGER Why not? MR BUTHELEZI I do not have a specific reason why I did not shoot. MR BERGER According to you, you hadn't killed anyone up to that point. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Why did you stop your shooting spree when you got to Slovo Park? MR BUTHELEZI It's something that just happened unplanned. MR BERGER Weren't you still chasing the SUDs? MR BUTHELEZI They had already run away, most of them. MR BERGER Hadn't they run into the houses in Slovo Park? MR BUTHELEZI The others ran towards Slovo Park. MR BERGER Yes, and you followed them there. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, we followed them. MR BERGER But you didn't shoot anymore, even though you could have? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I did not use the chance to shoot them. MR BERGER You're not being completely honest with this Committee about your participation in the attack, are you, Mr Buthelezi? MR BUTHELEZI No, that is not true. MR BERGER You know because you saw the damage that a shotgun can cause, and you want to distance yourself from that horror, isn't that right? MR BUTHELEZI Please repeat the question, Sir. MR BERGER You know because you saw the damage that a shotgun can cause on a human being, and you want to distance yourself from that horror, that is why you say you didn't shoot anymore in Slovo Park and you don't know if you killed anybody in Boipatong. I am right, aren't I? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I can still hear the interpreter interpreting whilst the next question was already asked. INTERPRETER The interpreter was still explaining the question to the witness. MR BUTHELEZI I can respond like this, as follows: at Boipatong I did not shoot anyone, all I know what I did was to shoot directing to one house only. In my mind I think that was in the bedroom. I was standing on the street, I think I hit the bedroom. I shot in the air, I left the scene. CHAIRPERSON Well did you shoot once or did you shoot twice? MR BUTHELEZI I used three bullets. CHAIRPERSON Alright. The first shot that you fired, where was it directed at? MR BUTHELEZI My first shot was directed at the Self Defence Units. The second one was directed to one house and the bullet hit the bedroom. CHAIRPERSON Okay, you fired directing the shot at a bedroom? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And the third shot, was it the one that you fired into the air? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you. You fired into a bedroom because you knew that there would be people in bed, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI In that bedroom the light was on. MR BERGER And you knew there would be people in bed, that is why you fired into the bedroom, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI I did not know that there would be people in bed, or there were people in bed. MR BERGER Why did you fire into a bedroom? MR BUTHELEZI I was trying to break the windows. MR BERGER Well Mr Buthelezi, there were many people breaking windows. Your job was to kill people. MR BUTHELEZI I've explained that I myself, I was afraid to kill a human being. MR BERGER You knew when you fired into that bedroom, that you had a very good chance of hitting people in bed, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI I was just shooting. MR BERGER Mr Buthelezi, I can see you don't want to answer my question, I'll move on. If there were police and police vehicles in Boipatong, you would have seen them, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER If the police had assisted you and your fellow attackers in Boipatong, you would know about that, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I would know about that. MR BERGER Because you would have seen it and you would have discussed it with your co-attackers afterwards, am I right. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Am I correct when I say you said Damarra's group went towards the shops and your group took the other route, that would mean that your group moved right down the first street in Boipatong, correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER In Moshweshwe Street I can just tell you that there were many windows smashed in many houses by your colleagues. Do you agree that there were plenty of people around you smashing windows in Moshweshwe Street? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I agree. MR BERGER At 11.93 Dick Mokoena was injured with a shotgun wound. MR BUTHELEZI Pardon? MR BERGER Dick Mokoena. MR BUTHELEZI I do not know that person. MR BERGER The next day after the attack, are you saying that you have no knowledge of anything being burnt? MR BUTHELEZI I did not know where these goods, the place, the spot where these goods were burnt. MR BERGER But you do know that goods were burnt? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Goods which were stolen from Boipatong. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Who gave the order that those goods should be burnt, do you know? MR BUTHELEZI In the room that I was staying Damarra came in ... MR BERGER Yes? MR BUTHELEZI He told us that if we had taken something from Boipatong, we should take it to the stadium so that it could be burnt. MR BERGER And was anything taken from your room to the stadium? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Who had stolen stuff from Boipatong and what had they stolen. MR BUTHELEZI Hollie Bajosi brought a video machine, Skubuzo had a blanket, that is all. MR BERGER And Damarra said that these goods must be taken to the stadium to be burnt? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, he said anyone who had stolen property from Boipatong, that should be taken to the stadium. MR BERGER When you went to the meeting at the stadium, had the goods already been burnt? MR BUTHELEZI I hope so. MR BERGER But you don't know. MR BERGER No, I don't know. MR BERGER Isn't it that Themba Khosa gave the instruction that the goods should be burnt and the weapons should be destroyed? I beg your pardon, the evidence linking you to the attack on Boipatong, should be destroyed? MR BUTHELEZI No, that is not Mr Themba Khosa's instruction, that was not Mr Themba Khosa's instruction. MR BERGER What was his instruction? MR BUTHELEZI Mr Themba Khosa came and I heard him saying that they were shocked about the Boipatong incident and he wanted to know if we had any knowledge as to who did that, who was involved in that incident and everyone denied having any knowledge to that effect. MR BERGER Why? MR BUTHELEZI No-one wanted to be arrested at that time. MR BERGER But when Themba Khosa spoke the police were not in the stadium, were they? MR BUTHELEZI I think police were there on that particular day. MR BERGER Did you deny your involvement because you knew that such an attack would not be approved by Themba Khosa, is that why you denied it? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, we denied our involvement there in that particular incident. CHAIRPERSON No, the question is, did you deny your involvement in the attack because you knew that Themba Khosa would not have approved the attack on Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, Mr Khosa, I am sure that he wouldn't approve and he wouldn't be happy if he had known that we were the people who did that. MR BERGER You knew that on the 18th of June 1992? MR BUTHELEZI Will you please repeat the question, Sir? MR BERGER Did you know that on the 18th of June 1992, that Themba Khosa wouldn't have been happy if he had known that you were responsible for the attack? MR BUTHELEZI That is my view. MR BERGER Did Mr Mkhize give an instruction that the goods looted from Boipatong should be burnt? MR BUTHELEZI I don't know but in our room, Mr Damarra came. MR BERGER So would you answer at page 188 where you say: Question 5.1 "Mr Khosa did not give such a warning, this warning was given by Damarra and Mkhize." Would the reference to Mkhize there be wrong? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I can say so. ADV SIGODI Did you know Mr Mkhize? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. ADV SIGODI No, at the time, did you know him, at the time of the attack? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, Serame pointed him to me at the stadium. ADV SIGODI Thanks. MR BERGER This is the night of the attack, the night of the 17th? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR BERGER Thank you, Mr Buthelezi, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Mr Malindi? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Buthelezi, it's your evidence that you were not a member of the IFP before the 17th of June 1992. MR BUTHELEZI Are you talking about June or July? MR MALINDI 17 June 1992. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I was not an IFP member at the time. MR MALINDI And the only conflict you had had with the ANC was the one involving Doti and Skosana? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you become a member of the IFP subsequent to that, that is subsequent to the 17th of June 1992? MR BUTHELEZI I became a member on the 17th. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson. To the extent that you approved of this attack on Boipatong, it was because you were motivated by the desire to avenge what Doti and Skosana had done to you? MR BUTHELEZI No, deep in my heart I did not like the idea, I was not for the idea of attacking at Boipatong. MR MALINDI And you didn't want to take avenge in any form for what Doti and Skosana had done to you? MR BUTHELEZI I would try and - I would revenge at Zone 12. MR MALINDI So in other words, you can't put forward any reason why you attacked Boipatong yourself? MR BUTHELEZI My reason to go to Boipatong is because Mr Damarra said openly that a man that be left behind or that would be left in the yard while the other men go to Boipatong, that man, the one who would be left in Boipatong - the man that would be left in the hostel whereas other men had gone fighting, that man it would be his very last day. MR MALINDI After you heard about Nosenga's existence, did you go up to him, Nosenga? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I went up to him. MR MALINDI When you got to him and questioned him, who else was with you? MR BUTHELEZI It was a number of us. MR MALINDI Any names that you can remember? MR BUTHELEZI It was the late Mtwala and Tzwee, Papie, Doti, Shemi and Matanana and Chanke. Chanke is Joseph Radebe. MR MALINDI Was Mr Richard Dlamini anywhere near Nosenga at that time? MR BUTHELEZI No, I did not see him. MR MALINDI Were Vusi and Spongolona also there? MR BUTHELEZI Though I cannot remember very well, as we were coming towards him I did not see the people who were in his company. MR MALINDI At that time was Nosenga taken anywhere, after you questioned him? MR BUTHELEZI Do you mean on that particular day? MR MALINDI On that particular day and specifically at the time when you were part of the group questioning him. MR BUTHELEZI He came there and he joined us. He stood there as we were washing the cars. MR MALINDI So as far as you are concerned, on this particular day, the day that you questioned him, he was not taken to any person, he just lay around the premises of Kwamadala? MR BUTHELEZI As we were there with him, in the evening a meeting was held. MR MALINDI The meeting was held in order to address the Nosenga issue? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. INTERPRETER Will the speaker please repeat the previous question. MR MALINDI Was this meeting held to discuss the Nosenga issue? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, and the other subjects were to be discussed. MR MALINDI Up until this meeting was called, you had seen Nosenga walking about the premises, he was not handed over to anyone? MR BUTHELEZI I can see Nosenga was shocked. MR MALINDI And at this meeting, was this meeting on the same day on which you first met Nosenga and you were part of this interrogating group? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR MALINDI I don't remember if I've asked this question, where was this meeting held? MR BUTHELEZI The meetings was held at Kwamadala hostel at the stadium. MR MALINDI And who dealt with the Nosenga issue at this meeting? MR BUTHELEZI Mr Thembankosi Khumalo. MR MALINDI And Nosenga was at the stadium also? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, he was also present. MR MALINDI And where had he come from before he presented himself at the stadium? MR BUTHELEZI I do not understand your question. MR MALINDI Did Nosenga go to the stadium like anyone else when the meeting was called? MR BUTHELEZI Nosenga went to the IFP Committee. MR MALINDI Did he present himself to the committee or how did he get to go to the committee? MR BUTHELEZI He came to the stadium with the Committee. CHAIRPERSON I think the question - wasn't your question how did, did he go on his own to the Committee. MR MALINDI Yes, that was my question, Sir. MR BUTHELEZI People came to fetch him. MR MALINDI Who fetched him? MR BUTHELEZI I cannot remember those people. MR MALINDI You yourself did not see Nosenga being taken away and being taken to the IFP Committee? MR BUTHELEZI No. MR MALINDI Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS CAMBANIS No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you, Sir. As at the 17th of June 1992, how many of you were occupants in the room that you were occupying? MR BUTHELEZI It is very difficult for me to say but it was a lot of us. CHAIRPERSON You're not being asked about the hostel as a whole, you're being asked about the room that you occupied. MR BUTHELEZI Do you want to know how many people occupied one room, is that your question? CHAIRPERSON Occupied the room which you also occupied. MR BUTHELEZI If I'm not mistaken I think we were about 10 or 13. MR MAPOMA And I take it that in the light of Damarra assertion that every man must go and attack Boipatong, all your roommates did participate in the attack, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR MAPOMA And of all your roommates, it's only three of you, that is yourself and the two twins who did not attend the Ulundi conference subsequent to the attack, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MR MAPOMA And your roommates who attended the Ulundi conference, were they necessarily delegates for that conference or were they just attending the conference as interested persons? MR BUTHELEZI I think they went there as interested people. MR MAPOMA Why did you not attend the conference? MR BUTHELEZI I was not interested. MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM This interrogation which was referred to which you had with Mr Nosenga, was that an informal situation or was it a formal situation, like a committee situation? MR BUTHELEZI We would ask questions randomly. MR STRYDOM Now when Mr Nosenga said that he was planted in the hostel as a spy and that he should look for places where he could plant bombs and all that, did you believe him? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, we believed him because there were threats all the time. MR STRYDOM When you arrived at the hostel with Doctor and Jabulani, did you arrive by car? MR BUTHELEZI No, we used public transport, we used taxis and we alighted at the robots. MR STRYDOM You stated that the instruction to attack was given by Damarra, now if no order was given by him to attack Boipatong, would you have attacked Boipatong out of your own freewill? MR BUTHELEZI No, we would not attack. MR STRYDOM Did you realise at that stage that Damarra was one of the leaders at the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR STRYDOM You testified about three shots which you fired in the beginning stages of the attack and later on you went to Slovo Park, did you see any comrades in Slovo Park, or did you find any comrades in Slovo Park? MR BUTHELEZI The comrades at the street that intersects the Slovo Park and Boipatong, they jumped to the side of the shacks and they disappeared. MR STRYDOM After they disappeared, did you see them again? MR BUTHELEZI No, we did not see them again. MR STRYDOM Do you know or did you see where Doctor and Jabulani fired shots with their shotguns? MR BUTHELEZI No, I did not see them shooting. MR STRYDOM Apart from yourself, Doctor and Jabulani, do you know if other people also had shotguns? MR BUTHELEZI The person that I remember seeing was Mr Mkhize. MR STRYDOM Apart from him - let me ask you, did you know exactly what weapon each of the attackers had with them? CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, what is the question? MR STRYDOM If he knew the weapons of each one of the attackers. CHAIRPERSON There were approximately 300 attackers the evidence indicates, so do you want him to tell us what each one of these men had? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I know that the answer is obviously no, but if that is the situation he won't know if other people also had shotguns. That is basically the point I want to make. I can just put it straight away. Do you know if some of the other attackers had shotguns with them? MR BUTHELEZI No, it was quite a large number of people. The only person that was in front of me was Mr Mkhize. MR STRYDOM I've got no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM MS PRETORIUS No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS MR DA SILVA No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Just two or three. Who related to you the event that Nosenga was on the stage at Ulundi? INTERPRETER Will the speaker please repeat the question? MS TANZER Who related to you the event that Nosenga was on the stage at Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI It was Joseph Radebe. MS TANZER Did Nosenga tell you about this when he returned from Ulundi? MR BUTHELEZI No, Mr Nosenga did not mention that to me. MS TANZER Did you not ask him questions about being on the stage in Ulundi? I mean it's quite an honour. MR BUTHELEZI No, I did not ask him question, the people were just discussing. I did not ask him a question. MS TANZER Did he ever tell you that at the hostel you people were thanked for the good work done in Boipatong, by Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi himself? MR BUTHELEZI No. MS TANZER Now on your version Nosenga joined the hostel after the attack, that is correct right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MS TANZER Would you say that he got his information relating to the attack from his fellow roommates and hostel dwellers? MR BUTHELEZI I think he got that information from the other hostel dwellers. MS TANZER Do you think that in fact he pieced together the attack on Boipatong from information he obtained, resulting in the statement? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MS TANZER Then is it not correct that even if your version is correct and true, you are not relating an important fact to this Committee and that is that the police were involved in the attack of Boipatong? MR BUTHELEZI The police were not present and the soldiers were not present during the attack at Boipatong. MS TANZER Were you part of Victor Keswa's hit-squad or gang? MR BUTHELEZI No. MS TANZER No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax. MR LAX Thanks, Chair, just two quick questions. You said that a number of you went out to the robots early in the morning on the 18th when you suspected some sort of an attack, did I hear it correctly? MR LAX How many of you went out there? MR BUTHELEZI It was quite a large number of people. MR LAX More than 50, more than 100? MR BUTHELEZI I think it was more than 100. MR LAX And how did you get marshalled out, who brought you together so that you knew about these things that you went out there? In other words, who called you together? MR BUTHELEZI It was Mr Damarra. MR LAX And that's when you were re-issued with your shotgun? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. MR LAX The second issue was the question of Nosenga, you were questioning him and you said they came and fetched him to the Committee, do you remember that? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I do remember that. MR LAX Where did they fetch him from? MR BUTHELEZI He was fetched from the room. MR LAX So after you chaps had finished talking to him you went back to the room? MR BUTHELEZI Will you please repeat your question, Sir? MR LAX Did you go back to the room after you had finished talking to him or asking him questions etc? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, we went back to the room. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sigodi? ADV SIGODI You say that you went to the hostel for the first time on the 17th of June. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. ADV SIGODI Had you been to the hostel before that date? MR BUTHELEZI No. ADV SIGODI Did you have friends staying at the hostel, did you know anyone before going to the hostel? MR BUTHELEZI Yes. ADV SIGODI Who did you know before going to stay there? MR BUTHELEZI There's a gentleman called Tabang that I used to know and one gentleman called Bono, the other one was Faltein. ADV SIGODI Alright, but were you a frequent visitor to the hostel before staying there? MR BUTHELEZI I was not a frequent visitor there at the hostel. ADV SIGODI And before the attack were you active in politics? MR BUTHELEZI No. ADV SIGODI And this difference between you and Doti and Skosana, why do you think that it was a political difference? MR BUTHELEZI I knew very well that Skosana and Doti were well-known people at Zone 12, each and everyone at Zone 12 knew them at the time. ADV SIGODI No, but why do you ascribe your difference with them to being a political difference? MR BUTHELEZI It is solely because they said Stals was a member of IFP, that was Smith. ADV SIGODI But when you went to join the hostel you were not an IFP member. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I was not yet a member. ADV SIGODI You joined on that day. MR BUTHELEZI Yes. ADV SIGODI Did you submit your name to somebody, saying that you were joining the IFP? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, though I cannot remember the name of the person but I was issued a card. ADV SIGODI Why did you join the IFP? MR BUTHELEZI It's because the people were accusing me of being an IFP member. ADV SIGODI Yes, but was it necessary to join as an IFP member on that day? Let me put it this way, you were only seeking refuge in the hostel, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI It wasn't necessary for you to join as an IFP member on that particular day, is it correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, there was no need for me to join the IFP. ADV SIGODI Why did you choose that day to join and become an IFP member? MR BUTHELEZI In the township already they were accusing me of being an IFP member. ADV SIGODI Did you agree with the IFP policies? Did you know the IFP police? MR BUTHELEZI No, I did not know. ADV SIGODI Did you know who were the leaders of the IFP? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I knew the leader. ADV SIGODI Who was the leader? MR BUTHELEZI It was Doctor Mangasotho Buthelezi. ADV SIGODI Alright. And you say that when you joined the group to go and attack in Boipatong, you were not really keen or deep down in you you were not for the attack on the SDUs, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Will you please repeat your question? ADV SIGODI You say that you did not align yourself with the idea of attacking the Self Defence Units in Boipatong on that night? You didn't know anything about the attack before then. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I knew nothing about the attack. ADV SIGODI And so you only went there to attack simply because you were scared of threats by Damarra Chonco that you would be killed if you did not join the attack, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. When Nosenga told you a different story than the one that he was sent by the ANC to plant the bombs, did these events happen when you were washing the car, on the same day or was it on different days? MR BUTHELEZI As I was questioning him as to what was the reason for him to come to Kwamadala hostel, we were still washing the cars and he told me that the people who were accusing him of being an IFP member. When I heard from Chunkie the following day he said the reason for that person to come to Kwamadala hostel was to assist the possibility of planting bombs. I went back to him and I said; Sir, I asked you the reasons yesterday and you told me that the people who were accusing you of being, you told me that you were being accused of being an IFP member whereas you know very well that you were there to check whether you can plants the bombs. And he told me that he was afraid to tell me the truth. MR SIBANYONI So when you confronted him of having told you a lie, was it also at the spot where you were washing cars? MR BUTHELEZI We were in the house, in the room when I was asking him that question. MR SIBANYONI Earlier in your evidence when you were asked about the shot you directed at a house, I heard you saying that you directing it at the dining-room, but under cross-examination you say you directed it at the bedroom. Did I understand you correctly? MR BUTHELEZI No, you did not hear me well. MR SIBANYONI You said Nosenga was left to live in the hostel because he was asked by an elderly person at Ulundi and he said that he was an IFP person, he was no longer ANC, did Nosenga become a member of the IFP? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, he became an IFP member. MR SIBANYONI At what stage, when did he become a member of the IFP? MR BUTHELEZI After the conference in Ulundi. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything arising? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Chairperson, there's just one question and it's for clarification only. Mr Buthelezi, the Mkhize that you saw armed with a shotgun, that's Bhekinkosi Mkhize, am I right? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I saw him with an AK47 rifle. MR LAX Sorry, the question was, which Mkhize did you see with a shogun? We're trying to clarify which Mkhize you saw with a shotgun. MR BUTHELEZI No-one was armed with a shotgun, it was only a rifle. MR LAX So that was Bhekinkosi Mkhize that had an AK47? MR BUTHELEZI It is Archie's one. CHAIRPERSON "It's my co-applicant, yes." MR BUTHELEZI It is my co-accused. MR BERGER I'm sorry, Chairperson. In answer to a question by your counsel under re-examination as to who else had shotguns, you mentioned a person by the name of Mkhize, and I want to know that Mkhize, is it Bhekinkosi Mkhize, your co-accused. MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I thought you were referring to a rifle. I just said he had a firearm, I did not know that he was referring specifically to the size of the firearm. MR BERGER Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Anything arising? MR STRYDOM No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Thank you, Mr Buthelezi, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED