amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMITTEE, AMNESTY HEARING 1999-01-28 PRETORIA 4 THAPELO REUBEN KGOTSA AM 7653/97 ATTACKS ON HOUSES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53139&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99012529_pre_990128pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. I will now want to call upon Thapelo Reuben Kgotsa who is the 4th applicant in this matter. Thank you, Chair, Mr Kgotsa will prefer to give his testimony in Sotho. CHAIRPERSON South or North Sotho? MR KGOTSA Northern Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Northern Sotho. THAPELO REUBEN KGOTSA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba? EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. Mr Kgotsa will be applying for amnesty in respect of the attack at Ndala's house and also in respect of the grenade attack at Mphahlele's house and the attack at Mveke's house. Mr Kgotsa ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And escaping from prison? MR MOHLABA And escaping from prison. I'm indebted to the Chair. ADV DE JAGER I see his application hasn't been signed either and I think we didn't point out that Mr Mathe's application hasn't been attested, not signed but signed by a Commissioner, and what we've said before would also apply here. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. Mr Kgotsa, ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Mohlaba, just whilst you're dealing with the list of offences in respect of which the applicant is applying, was he not in possession of certain weapons whilst involved in these attacks? MR MOHLABA Certainly, Chair, he was in possession, unlawful possession of amongst others, handgrenades. ADV SANDI So he will be applying for amnesty for those also? MR MOHLABA Certainly, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Mohlaba, you may proceed. MR MOHLABA Mr Kgotsa, you filed an application which appears on page 23 of the paginated bundle, being an application for amnesty and it has just been noted that your application was attested before a Commissioner of Oaths, can you confirm whether this is the form which you have completed and whether the signature appearing at the foot thereof is that of yourself, and whether you ...(intervention) MR KGOTSA That is correct. MR MOHLABA And do you consider the contents of this application form to be the truth and binding on your conscience? MR KGOTSA That is correct. MR MOHLABA You are applying for amnesty in respect of the incident ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER We didn't hear the answer. INTERPRETER That is correct, the answer is "that is correct." Either channel 2 or channel 1 which is Afrikaans. ADV DE JAGER Was this form completed by yourself, is this your handwriting? MR KGOTSA Yes, that is my handwriting. MR MOHLABA Mr Kgotsa, can you tell this Committee whether you belonged to any political organisation during the period of the commission of these offences? MR KGOTSA Yes, I was a member of the African National Congress and then again a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. MR MOHLABA Can you explain to the Committee, supply full details of how you joined the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe and also explain the nature of training if any, which you underwent. MR KGOTSA I joined ANC in 1986 - I beg your pardon, in 1985. The person who recruited me is, I don't know where he is. I joined Umkhonto weSizwe the late 1987. I was recruited by Alfred Kgase. After we met we went to Rodney Toka who confirmed my membership, then I was trained by Rodney Toka. He trained me in the use of handgrenades and AK47s. MR MOHLABA Where was this training conducted, was it inside or outside the country? MR KGOTSA Inside the country. MR MOHLABA Did you belong to any unit and if so, can you mention the name of that unit? MR KGOTSA I was a member of Macedindaba Unit. CHAIRPERSON Could you just spell that name. MR KGOTSA M-A-C-E-D-I-N-D-A-B-A. MR MOHLABA How many persons ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Mohlaba, I think - did you say Maqedindaba Unit? MR KGOTSA That is correct. ADV SANDI Is that not: M-A-Q and not C as the interpreter has said? CHAIRPERSON We've got a dispute between a Panel Member and the interpreter, is it a C or a Q? MR KGOTSA I'm Sotho-speaking and I don't know the correct spelling. ADV DE JAGER Perhaps the people down in the south are spelling it with a Q. CHAIRPERSON It seems that the general view from the people attending is that it's a Q, so we'll change the C to a Q. (M-A-Q-E-D-I-N-D-A-B-A) MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. How many persons did this unit consist of? MR KGOTSA Three members. MR MOHLABA Can you mention the names of those members? MR KGOTSA Reginald Legodi, James Kgase and myself. MR MOHLABA Can you take this Committee through the incident which occurred around the 15th of April 1998, namely the hand-grenade attack at Mphahlele's house. MR KGOTSA I was together with Reginald Legodi. Reginald Legodi is the one who threw the hand-grenade in that house. I was waiting somewhere. After he threw the hand-grenade we left the scene. MR MOHLABA Can you explain to the Commission why, or rather how this attack was planned. I believe that you first sat down, planned about this attack and there should be a reason why this house was attacked and who was the target who was aimed at. MR KGOTSA The reason for the attack, the person we were looking for was a policeman and it seemed that he rented that house. I went there to make surveillance before. We took a few days to make the reconnoitring and then I went again on the same day of the attack to make surveillance, then I saw him entering the house or in that room. From there I left and went to collect Lefti, then we returned to accomplish our mission. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when you say that you saw the target, the policeman entering the house on the day of the attack, at approximately what time of the day was it that you saw him entering the house? Because we've heard from Mr Legodi that the attack took place after dark at night, when did you see him entering the house? MR KGOTSA At the time when I went to make surveillance before I collected to fetch Lefti. It was approximately 10 o'clock. When I came back with Reginald Legodi ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON 10 o'clock in the morning? MR KGOTSA No, in the evening, Sir. MR MOHLABA You have mentioned that you went back to collect Lefti, can you explain to the Commission who is Lefti. ADV DE JAGER Yes, but we still don't know now ...(intervention) MR KGOTSA That is Reginald Legodi. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, we still don't know, the Chairperson asked you to say at what time did you see him entering the house. CHAIRPERSON He said at 10 p.m. ADV DE JAGER No, he started surveillance at 10 p.m. CHAIRPERSON At what time did you see him entering the house before you went to fetch Legodi? MR KGOTSA I saw him entering the house, I don't know exactly but it was approximately 10 o'clock at night. CHAIRPERSON Continue, please. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. Can you explain to this Committee why was, who was this police officer who was your target, do you know his surname or his name? MR KGOTSA I do not know his name, I know his surname. That is Molatezi: M-O-L-A-T-E-Z-I. MR MOHLABA And can you explain whether you were given any orders to attack this person, orders or approval from somebody to carry out that attack and if so, explain who gave such orders or authorization. MR KGOTSA When we have identified a target we would go to our commanders, then we'd explain to our commanders about the type of target and then they would approve and give us an order to attack. CHAIRPERSON Did that happen in this instance? MR KGOTSA Pardon? CHAIRPERSON Did that happen in this particular case, did you get orders? MR KGOTSA Yes, they gave us an order, an approval. MR MOHLABA Who did this approval come from, do you know? MR KGOTSA That is our commander, Rodney Toka. MR MOHLABA At the time of this attack, who was heading this Maqedindaba Unit of yours, was it yourself or anybody else? MR KGOTSA During this attack the commander was Lefti, that is Reginald Legodi. MR MOHLABA Let us now move over to the incident which happened during May ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, sorry, before you do, Mr Mohlaba. We heard from Mr Legodi that no-one was killed or injured in this attack, do you confirm that or was anybody in fact injured or killed? MR KGOTSA Nobody was injured and nobody was killed in this attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. May we now move over to the incident which happened during May 1998, which was an attack in Ndala's house. Do you remember this incident? MR KGOTSA Yes, I do. MR MOHLABA Did you take part in this attack? MR KGOTSA Yes, I did. MR MOHLABA Can you explain in full details how this attack was planned and carried out? MR KGOTSA It was not our intention to attack him directly or his house. The police used to stay there, for example, Mr Hlongwane. We wanted to scare off Hlongwane from Mr Ndala's house. That is why we threw the grenade outside, just outside the gate. MR MOHLABA And do you know if anyone was injured? MR KGOTSA No, nobody was injured or killed, it's only damage to property, that is windows. CHAIRPERSON Who was present at the operation? MR KGOTSA I was together with Reginald Legodi. MR MOHLABA And can you explain whether you were given any orders to carry out this attack and if so, who gave such orders? MR KGOTSA The attack was approved by Rodney Toka. MR MOHLABA May we now move over to another attack ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Where did you get the hand-grenade from? MR KGOTSA We were given it by our commander, that is Rodney Toka. MR MOHLABA May we now move over to the attack at Mveke's residence. Do you know anything about this attack? MR KGOTSA Yes, I do. MR MOHLABA Who was in your company, or rather let's put it this way, did you take part in this very attack? MR KGOTSA Yes, I took part. MR MOHLABA Who was with you when this attack was carried out? MR KGOTSA I was together with Alfred Kgase. MR MOHLABA Can you explain why was this residence, there was an attack on this residence? MR KGOTSA It is because the father of that family was a policeman. MR MOHLABA And did you get any orders or approval from somebody to carry out this attack? MR KGOTSA Yes. MR MOHLABA Can you explain in full details to this Commission how ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Who did you receive orders from? MR KGOTSA We received the approval from our commander, that is Rodney Toka. MR MOHLABA Can you explain with details how this attack was carried out and the type of weapons used to attack this residence? MR KGOTSA We used a hand-grenade to attack this house. MR MOHLABA Who threw the hand-grenade, was it yourself or somebody else? MR KGOTSA I threw the hand-grenade. CHAIRPERSON Where did you throw the hand-grenade, did you throw it into the house or again just in the garden or what did you do, can you just give a bit more detail please. MR KGOTSA I threw it in the yard. CHAIRPERSON Why did you throw it in the yard? MR KGOTSA It was dark and then I was a little bit far from the house, I was not near for me to hit the target. MR MOHLABA Where were you intending to throw the grenade? You wanted to throw it through the window into the house or was it your intention to throw it in the yard? MR KGOTSA I wanted to throw it through the window. MR MOHLABA The comrade who was in your company, what role did he play there? MR KGOTSA He was at a distance so as to protect me and to disturb people who may pass by. MR MOHLABA In carrying these three attacks, what were you trying to achieve? ADV DE JAGER Could we just dwell on this last one. You intended to throw this hand-grenade into the house, is that correct? MR KGOTSA Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER In that house Mr Mveke's family was staying. MR KGOTSA Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER His wife and children. MR KGOTSA I did not know as to whether his wife and his children were in the house at that time. ADV DE JAGER Didn't you keep this house under surveillance? MR KGOTSA Sorry? ADV DE JAGER Didn't you keep this house under surveillance before you threw this hand-grenade? MR KGOTSA Yes, we did surveillance but at the time when we were going to attack this house it was dark. ADV DE JAGER So you didn't care whether you would kill women, children or whoever in that house? MR KGOTSA Because it was an operation it was difficult for us to pull out Mr Mveke and attack him alone. CHAIRPERSON It was dark at the time, your intention was to throw the hand-grenade through the window with the objective of killing your target, why then throw the hand-grenade when you're far away from the house, that you can't even reach the house? Why didn't you go up to the window and hurl it through the window seeing that it was dark? MR KGOTSA There were some disturbances in the street. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MOHLABA In carrying those three attacks, what did you hope to achieve? MR KGOTSA Our intention was to further the aims and objectives of the ANC. MR MOHLABA So the people who you attacked, did you view then as stumbling blocks to the accomplishment of the objectives of your organisation? MR KGOTSA That is correct. MR MOHLABA In support of your application, is there anything that you wish to mention to the victims of these attacks and the Commission? MR MOHLABA Please go ahead. MR KGOTSA I, Thapelo Reuben Kgotsa, I would like to say to all the victims who were affected by my attacks from the depth of my heart I want them to forgive me. I'm requesting them to forgive me and that we should all start all over again so that all of us should forgive each other and start building our new nation. To all the families which were affected by our attacks. MR MOHLABA Were you arrested for these activities and stood trial? MR KGOTSA Yes, I was arrested but I was never prosecuted. MR MOHLABA There is evidence here that some of your comrades escaped from custody in Modderbee, were you part of those comrades who escaped? MR KGOTSA Yes, that is correct. MR MOHLABA And you're also applying for amnesty for escaping from custody and leaving the country unlawfully? MR KGOTSA Yes, I do. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair, that will conclude the evidence of the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mohlaba. I see Mr Molefe is not here. Mr Mokone, do you have any questions to ask? MR MOKONE I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOKONE CHAIRPERSON Ms Monyane, do you have any questions? MS MONYANE No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MONYANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert, do you have any questions? MR JOUBERT No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr Dreyer. MR DREYER No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA I do have one question, Mr Chairman. Mr Kgotsa, when Mr Legodi testified yesterday he mentioned that the reason for attacking Mr Ndala's house, well the reasons were twofold, it was that he was informing or he was suspected of informing and that information came from you. Then second one was that he had these visits from Mr Hlongwane. And in your testimony today you've only mentioned one, that you attacked his house to scare off Mr Hlongwane, so what is the position? MR KGOTSA Could you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON What Ms Mtanga is asking you is, what she is saying is that yesterday when Mr Legodi gave evidence with regard to the attack on Ndala's house, he said that it was suspected Ndala was an informer, a police agent and he also said that another reason why the house was attacked was because he got regular visits from a policeman who worked in the Security Branch, by the name of Hlongwane. You have only mentioned the fact that the reason for the attack was Hlongwane's frequent visits to the house. She also said that Legodi said that you had informed him that Ndala was an informer, what do you say about that? MR KGOTSA The way Reginald Legodi was testifying, that is the way it is, we suspected that he was an informer. Then again, Hlongwane used to visit Mr Ndala or Ndala's house. That is why we had that suspicion that Mr Ndala is an informer. MS MTANGA Are you able to tell this Committee what nature of information you suspected Mr Ndala to be informing on? MR KGOTSA Not that he was informing about us. MS MTANGA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba, do you have any re-examination? MR MOHLABA None, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Mr de Jager, do you have any questions? ADV DE JAGER In this last instance, the attack on Mr Mveke's house, why did you attack that house? MR KGOTSA Mr Mveke was a policeman. ADV DE JAGER Wasn't he a retired policeman and not serving as a policeman anymore? MR KGOTSA I don't know as to whether he was on pension, I only know that he was a policeman. ADV DE JAGER Did you target him, did you make surveillance and ask that he should be declared a legitimate target? MR KGOTSA Yes, I did the surveillance on him. ADV DE JAGER And what did you see? Was he an active policeman or was he a retired policeman? MR KGOTSA As I've already said, I did not know as to whether he was on pension or not. ADV DE JAGER Why did you make surveillance on him? MR KGOTSA The surveillance was based on as to whether what time does he come at home and how ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Kgotsa, the question is why did you initially decide to do surveillance? I mean we know what surveillance is but why did you elect to keep a watch on Mveke's house to determine what are his comings and goings? MR KGOTSA Sorry to make use of the word "surveillance", let me use the word "reconnaissance". CHAIRPERSON Why did you reconnoitre in the first place, why did you decide to reconnoitre Mveke's house? MR KGOTSA We do the reconnoitring so that we will be able to identify that place and look at the movements. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kgotsa, I know that. If I decide - I can go outside, I can walk out here and I can walk down the road and I can reconnoitre any number of houses but I've got no reason to do it, I'll only properly reconnoitre a house if I've got a reason. Why did you decide to reconnoitre the house? Why pick on Mveke's house, why didn't you pick on somebody else's house down the road? Or did you say; we're going to pick this house, reconnoitre it so that it can become a target, without knowing anything about it? Why did you choose to reconnoitre that house? MR KGOTSA We did reconnaissance because he was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON But now you say you don't know whether he was a policeman, whether he was on pension or not. MR KGOTSA At that time when we started reconnaissance I knew that he was a policeman, I didn't know that he was on pension. ADV SANDI Yes, but did you - Mr Kgotsa, did you ever see Mr Mveke going out of his house in uniform? MR KGOTSA No, I never saw him in police uniform. ADV SANDI In which branch of the police was he in? MR KGOTSA I did not know as to whether he was a CID or working at Compol, I did not know. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that he was a policeman? MR KGOTSA It was known that he was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean, it was known? It was known to you, I'm asking you how did you know? MR KGOTSA For a person to be known as a policeman you can identify them because he was in uniform. There were those whom you were not able to identify on their uniform because they're on the private clothes. The CID's don't put uniforms and the Security Branch, but it was known around Mamelodi community that he was a policeman. ADV SANDI Did you ever see him in a police vehicle, Mr Kgotsa? MR KGOTSA I did not see him in a police vehicle because he was using a private car. I did not verify as to whether that car was a policeman(?) or not. ADV SANDI Did you get to know whether he was staying with a wife and children in his house? MR KGOTSA Yes, I knew that he had a family. MS MTANGA Mr Chairperson, can I just come in here. According to Mr Mveke, he retired on the 31st of May and when the applicants carried out the attack on him it was on the 4th of June, that is four days after he had retired. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Mtanga. ADV DE JAGER You knew he had a wife and children and yet you were prepared to throw a hand-grenade into his house. MR KGOTSA I did not know the wife and the children. ADV DE JAGER But you watched this house, you kept surveillance there, didn't you see the wife and children? MR KGOTSA I would usually see people in his yard. ADV DE JAGER What people did you see there? Because you just told us a minute before that he had a family, you were aware of that. MR KGOTSA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you see children there? MR KGOTSA During the day I used to see children and people in the yard. ADV DE JAGER And where do you think they slept at night? MR KGOTSA Inside the house. ADV DE JAGER So they would have been killed if the hand-grenade had reached its target? MR KGOTSA The site we chose that we would throw the hand-grenade was on the sitting-room side or on the north side. I know that they would be injured. ADV DE JAGER What was your order, could you kill the women and children? MR KGOTSA Sorry? CHAIRPERSON What was your order, did it include the killing of the family besides the intended target? MR KGOTSA No, it was not including women and children. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi, do you have any questions to ask? ADV SANDI Just to dwell on the reasons for the attack on Mr Mveke. Was Mr Mveke attacked simply because he was a policeman or were there any acts Mr Mveke was conducting against comrades? MR KGOTSA He was a policeman. ADV SANDI We have been told that when this attack was carried out at his house, it was a matter of days that he had retired, would that have made any difference to you? MR KGOTSA Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON If you had known that Mr Mveke at the time of the attack was retired, that he had retired from the police force, would you still have carried out the attack? MR KGOTSA If I knew there was no reason for us to attack him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. From the legal representatives, I'll ask you collectively, does anyone have any questions arising out of questions that were put by Members of the Panel? NO QUESTIONS BY LEGAL REPRESENTATIVES CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, do you have any questions arising? MR MOHLABA Thank you, no questions, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Kgotsa, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. MR KGOTSA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED