amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-01-28 PRETORIA 4 ALFRED KGASE AM 7737/97 ATTACKS ON HOUSES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53140&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99012529_pre_990128pt.htm MR MOHLABA May I now call on Alfred Kgase. Thank you, Chair. Mr Kgase wants to give his testimony in Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Is that also Northern Sotho, Mr Kgase. MR KGASE Northern Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kgase, do you have any objection to taking the oath? ALFRED KGASE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. Mr Kgase, on the 4th of June 1988, there was an attack on a residence of Mr Mveke, did you take part in that attack? MR KGASE Yes, I did. MR MOHLABA And during this period, did you belong to any political organisation? MR KGASE I was a member of the ANC and then again a member of the MK. MR MOHLABA Do you remember when you joined the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe? MR KGASE Yes, I do. MR MOHLABA Tell the Committee. MR KGASE It was in 1987. MR MOHLABA Can you explain with full details how you came to join this organisation and its military wing? MR KGASE I joined the ANC and MK in 1987. It was after my brother's funeral. I met my commander, Rodney Toka. MR MOHLABA And he is the one who recruited you into the movement? MR KGASE Yes, he was the one who recruited me. MR MOHLABA Who is your brother and can you tell the Commission how he was killed or how he died? MR KGASE My brother is Moses Kgase. He died in a roadblock in Sandton. He was a member of MK. MR MOHLABA Do you - can you explain to the Commission what was the role you played at Mveke's residence? MR KGASE I went with my commander, Reuben Kgotsa and he told me that there was a policeman at Mamelodi West and his name was Mveke. He went there and he showed me the house where he was staying. I told him that I was going to do the reconnaissance before we could come and attack. I wanted to do so, so that we were safe after the attack. MR MOHLABA Yes, proceed and explain what happened until the attack was carried out. MR KGASE After I've done my reconnaissance and I've told him that I've already done so, he said we were ready to proceed. MR MOHLABA Yes, proceed. MR KGASE When we went there on our way he said to me before we could proceed we should meet our commander so that he gives us the weapons or the hand-grenade. He went and saw the commander and afterwards he came and fetched me so that we could proceed. When we arrived there he told me that I should wait somewhere at a distance so that I make sure that he's being covered or protected. I looked for a cover and I waited there, protecting him. He was the one who had the hand-grenade. We made sure that we were safe after he threw the hand-grenade at Mveke's house. CHAIRPERSON Were you armed? MR KGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON With what? MR KGASE A hand-grenade. MR MOHLABA So the hand-grenade you had in your possession was never used at the attack at Mveke's residence? MR KGASE No, it wasn't used. MR MOHLABA Were you arrested for having taken part in this attack? MR KGASE Yes, I was. MR MOHLABA And did you stand trial and what was the outcome thereof? MR KGASE No, I wasn't sentenced but I was arrested. MR MOHLABA How did you get out of prison, did you escape? MR KGASE I escaped. MR MOHLABA And after escaping, where did you go to? MR KGASE I went to exile. MR MOHLABA Where? MR KGASE I went to Lusaka. MR MOHLABA So are you also applying for amnesty for escaping from lawful custody and leaving the country unlawfully? MR KGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, I notice also like the previous applicant, the copy of which we have in our bundle of the application has not been signed before a Commissioner of Oaths. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair. You have lodged an application in a prescribed form for amnesty, is that correct? Is this the form which you have completed, is it a copy thereof? MR KGASE Yes. MR MOHLABA The signature appearing at the foot of the form, is that your signature? MR KGASE Yes. MR MOHLABA Do you confirm that the contents of these application forms are the truth and that they are binding on your conscience? MR KGASE Yes. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair, that will conclude the evidence of the applicant. ADV DE JAGER Before we continue, you've just confirmed that the contents of this application is the truth, now you're applying in this application for amnesty for murder, who did you murder? MR KGASE I didn't murder anyone. ADV DE JAGER So that's a mistake, it's not the truth? MR KGASE Yes, it's a mistake. MR MOHLABA When you were arrested after this attack at Mveke's residence, did you also face a charge of murder or several charges of murder? MR KGASE No. MR MOHLABA Were you not co-accused of Rodney Toka, Francis Pitsi and the others? MR KGASE No. MR MOHLABA When you were arrested, where were you kept or tell us the prison from which you escaped, which prison was that? MR KGASE Modderbee Prison. MR MOHLABA You were not arrested together with Legodi and Kgotsa? MR KGASE We were arrested together. MR MOHLABA Do you know whether they also escaped from Modderbee Prison? MR KGASE Yes, we escaped together. MR MOHLABA In completing your application form for amnesty, who was assisting you? ADV DE JAGER Were you accused number 12? MR KGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON It would seem here from the papers, page 56, he says that he was charged with murder, attempted murder and malicious damage to property in case number CC349/89, which case is the same as the other applicants' cases, and it's apparent from the indictment that appears at page 66 etc., that there were a number of murder charges there as well. Obviously the basis for the, including all the accused and the charges, they were going to try for common purpose or something like that I'm sure. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair, that will conclude the evidence of the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Molefe, do you have any questions to ask the applicant? MR MOLEFE None, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mokone? MR MOKONE None, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOKONE CHAIRPERSON Mr Monyane? MS MONYANE No questions, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MONYANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert is not there, Mr Dreyer is not there. I'm sure they wouldn't have questions, they had no interest in this matter. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Mr de Jager, do you have any questions? ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) for what purpose? Why did you carry a hand-grenade on that specific evening? MR KGASE The reason was we wanted to protect ourselves and at that time in Mamelodi there were too many soldiers' vehicles and we wanted to be safe and to protect ourselves, to defend ourselves. ADV DE JAGER So what would have happened if 10 passed by? What would you do? MR KGASE I wasn't going to do anything because they were not going to arrest me. ADV DE JAGER Was this only in case of you being threatened with an arrest, then you would use this hand-grenade? MR KGASE Yes, that was my only reason, to protect myself from the police. ADV DE JAGER So it was for self-protection? MR KGASE Yes, it was. ADV DE JAGER And you said that you kept a watch on this house, did you see people entering the house or playing in the yard or standing in the yard? MR KGASE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Were there children? MR KGASE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Did they sleep in the house? MR KGASE That's where I don't know because in that house there was a garage and outside rooms. ADV DE JAGER But didn't you keep a watch that night to see whether the target would come home and whether he'll sleep there? MR KGASE I didn't check that. ADV DE JAGER Did you check whether he was involved in any police activities or acted against the community? MR KGASE He was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON Well we've heard at the time of the attack he was retired. MR KGASE We didn't know that at the time, we only knew him as a policeman. ADV DE JAGER Were you sent to kill him? MR KGASE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Was anything said about his family? MR KGASE No, the only person we were targeting was him. ADV DE JAGER Now if you throw a hand-grenade into a house you are aware that other people present could be killed? MR KGASE Yes. ADV DE JAGER You've been trained and told that, isn't that so? MR KGASE In our training we were never told about that. ADV DE JAGER Weren't you trained and told this is a deadly weapon, be careful it could kill the people around when it explodes? MR KGASE Yes, we were told. ADV DE JAGER So you knew it could other people in the house? MR KGASE Yes, I knew. ADV DE JAGER But you didn't worry about it? MR KGASE I worried about that. ADV DE JAGER And what did you do to prevent it? MR KGASE That hand-grenade didn't go inside the house. CHAIRPERSON Do you think it was thrown purposely not to go into the house for that reason, so other people wouldn't be injured? MR KGASE It hit the wall, that's why it didn't go inside the house. CHAIRPERSON But if it went inside the house as it was meant to have gone in the house it may have killed innocent children. You see I can't understand how anyone can say that care was taken not to injure other people by hurling a hand-grenade at a house, unless before you throw it you go, you look in the window and you see that the only person in the room in which you're throwing the hand-grenade is the target and there is no-one else. That would be the only circumstance. But just to throw it blindly at a house, how can anyone even begin to think that any steps were taken to prevent injury to other people, it's just irrational to think so, would you agree? MR KGASE I wasn't there, I was just protecting him. CHAIRPERSON Yes? Mr Sandi, do you have any questions? ADV SANDI Yes, Chair. Mr Kgase, I noticed that in your application form at page 52 of the bundle, in reply to the question where you are asked to state the nature and the particulars of the offences in respect of which you are applying, you make mention of AK47s. Was there any incident in which you had to use an AK47? MR KGASE No, I was just trained on how to use an AK47. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are these any questions arising from questions put by Members of the Panel? Mr Mohlaba? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Yes, just one aspect. You mention that after you were, after a target was identified your comrade went to collect the weapons from your commander, ...(indistinct), is that correct? MR KGASE That's correct. MR MOHLABA And other than knowing that the target is Mveke's residence, were you told how the operation is going to be carried out, that is who was going to throw the hand-grenade and so forth? MR KGASE That's correct. MR MOHLABA What were you told? MR KGASE We were told that we were supposed to attack Mr Mveke's house and Reuben was going to be responsible on throwing the hand-grenade there. I was going to be responsible on protecting him so that he could go ahead. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you, Mr Kgase, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED