amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-01-28 PRETORIA 4 JOSEPH NKOSI AM 7273/97 ATTACKS ON HOUSES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53141&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99012529_pre_990128pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Does that exhaust your clients' testimony, Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA That's correct, if I may be excused for a while, while Mr Molefe is proceeding with his other applications. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Molefe? Is Mr Joubert here? MR MOLEFE He is around, Mr Chairman. Mr Chair, we beg leave to call Mr Joseph Nkosi. He is the 6th applicant. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Molefe. Mr Nkosi, in which language will you be testifying? MR NKOSI English. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to taking the oath? JOSEPH NKOSI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Molefe? MR MOLEFE Mr Chair, Mr Nkosi will be applying for amnesty in respect of the attack Kulele's house where a one year old baby passed away in Mamelodi. He will also be applying for amnesty in respect of possession of arms and ammunition, as well as escaping from Modderbee Prison. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Molefe. EXAMINATION BY MR MOLEFE Mr Nkosi, you were staying in Mamelodi just before you were arrested, is that correct? MR NKOSI That's correct. MR MOLEFE And you had joined the African National Congress and its armed wing, Umkhonto weSizwe, is that correct? MR NKOSI Correct. MR MOLEFE Can you just briefly explain to this Court as to how you joined Umkhonto weSizwe and when was it? MR NKOSI I joined the ANC in the early '80's. I underwent the military training in 1984 in Angola. MR MOLEFE Whereabout in Angola? MR NKOSI In the northern camps. MR MOLEFE Northern camps? MR NKOSI Ja, in the north, they called them the north. MR MOLEFE Okay, you can continue. MR NKOSI And then I came back and filtered back into the country ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Sorry, could you perhaps speak a little bit louder or I suppose I should increase the volume here. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, continue please. You said that you were trained in northern Angola in 1984 and then you came back into the country. MR NKOSI Yes, yes. Then I started to operate as an MK cadre inside the country in the logistic section. MR MOLEFE What type of training did you receive in Angola? MR NKOSI Basic military training. MR MOLEFE Now you said you started to operate inside the country in the logistics. MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE Can you just explain briefly what you mean by that or what did that encompass? MR NKOSI Logistics, I used to transport some of the cadres within the country, weapons, retrieving weapons from the DLBs and distributing the weapons into different units. MR MOLEFE Right. We have heard that at one stage you served under the command of Mr Toka, is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE And can you just briefly give us a background as to how it came about? MR NKOSI Okay, Mr Toka was brought to me by Mr, comrade Lekombi(?) to assist him in his units with transport. MR MOLEFE Was Mr Lekombi already a member of MK at that time? MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE Okay, you can continue. MR NKOSI There I assisted Mr Toka to retrieve the weapons around the farm between Middelburg and Witbank and to distribute the weapons to his units around the country. MR MOLEFE Now we've heard that a number of units existed which were under the command of amongst others a Mr Toka, in which one did you belong? MR NKOSI I operated as a unit on my own. MR MOLEFE Did you operate on your own until you were arrested or, can you just explain? MR NKOSI Yes, I operated on my own but during the process of assisting Toka with transport I recruited one guy because as a busy man I couldn't afford to serve my units and Toka's units with all the logistics I have, mainly transport. MR MOLEFE And who is that person? MR NKOSI That's Bennie Mokonyane. ADV DE JAGER Sorry I couldn't follow, Ben? MR NKOSI Bennie Mokonyane. MR MOLEFE Did you give any training to Mr Mokonyane? MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE If so, when and what kind of training did you give to Mr Mokonyane? MR NKOSI I trained Bennie Mokonyane on handling, in the uses of handling of a pistol and explosives and hand-grenades. MR MOLEFE Just to be of assistance to the Committee, Bennie Mokonyane is accused number 8 in the charge sheet. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Molefe. ADV DE JAGER So he was in fact one of those that remained, he didn't escape and he was sentenced? ...(inaudible) found not-guilty. MR NKOSI He was the one who acquitted. MR NEL Now you are also applying for amnesty in respect of the attack on Kulele's house. MR NKOSI That's correct. MR MOLEFE Can you just briefly tell us what your involvement was inasfar as that is concerned? MR NKOSI Okay, since there was a call from the ANC headquarters in Lusaka that all the policemen in South Africa must be isolated and commanders who had infiltrated the country at that time, they gave orders that they must, their units must reconnoitre or identify the policemen who can be attacked. Bennie Mokonyane was given also that order to go and identify some policemen who can be attacked around Mamelodi. CHAIRPERSON Do you know who he received the order from? MR NKOSI That's from Mr Toka, Webster and myself. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue please. MR MOLEFE Just for the sake of clarity, in this unit, this two man unit of yours and Mokonyane, what was your position? MR NKOSI At that time I was his commander but I was preparing him to hand him over to Mr Toka for logistical purposes. MR MOLEFE Okay, you can continue from where Mr Mokonyane has been given an order to identify policemen who can be attacked. Continue. MR NKOSI So Bennie Mokonyane went. After a few days we met and he brought back the report that he already identified the targets. And then Toka ordered Webster as he is an intelligence man, to go and do the surveillance on the targets which were identified by Mr Bennie Mokonyane. MR MOLEFE Do you know which targets are those? MR NKOSI At that time I didn't know. CHAIRPERSON Was there more than one target at that time that had been identified by Bennie? MR NKOSI No, I didn't know. He didn't disclose the number of targets. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR MOLEFE Yes, you can proceed from where Toka had ordered Webster to reconnoitre. MR NKOSI Okay, they went to do the reconnaissance. I don't know whether they were together with Webster or Webster was alone, I don't know because I was not there at that point in time, but after some time we met again and Bennie - okay let me, a point of correction, Webster gave the report to Toka that the target is okay, the attack can continue. MR MOLEFE Which target was that? MR NKOSI Of a policeman. MR MOLEFE Which policeman? MR NKOSI At that time I didn't know but at a later stage I realised that it's Mr Kulele. MR MOLEFE Okay you can continue, Webster has given the report, what happens thereafter? MR NKOSI So Mr Toka issued out an order that Bennie Mokonyane can continue with the attack. And after some ...(indistinct) days Bennie Mokonyane had already attacked the house, he gave back the report to Mr Toka which I - okay, I already got it from Mr Toka that Bennie Mokonyane has attacked the house. Unfortunately the target, the operation was not successful. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Nkosi, were you present during the attack itself? MR NKOSI I wasn't present. CHAIRPERSON Well who, who ...(intervention) MR JOUBERT Excuse me, Mr Chairman, I didn't hear the answer on that question. CHAIRPERSON He says he wasn't present at the attack himself. MR JOUBERT Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Who conducted the attack? You've mentioned Bennie, was there anyone else? When I say "conducted the attack", I mean the actual physical attack on the house, not the planning that you've referred to etc., but the actual attack. MR NKOSI With due respect, Mr Chairman, I really don't know exactly who attacked the house, or Bennie was someone or he was alone. I didn't know exactly. CHAIRPERSON But you know that Bennie did it, Bennie was there? MR NKOSI Ja, the report I got from Mr Toka is that the house was attacked by Bennie Mokonyane. I don't know with whom. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. MR MOLEFE So the reason why you are applying for amnesty in respect of this offence is because you were part of those who gave Mr Mokonyane the command? MR NKOSI Exactly. MR MOLEFE Is so that at a later stage you were arrested and stood trial at Delmas? MR NKOSI Exactly. MR MOLEFE And is it so that you are one of those who escaped from the Modderbee Prison? MR NKOSI That's correct. MR MOLEFE Is there any other thing that you'd like to say in respect of this application? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just one thing before he answers. Sorry, is there anything you wish to say? I just want to draw your attention to the copy of the application form and the Commissioner of Oaths. Perhaps you can deal with that Mr Molefe. MR NKOSI Ja, what I can say to this Commission and to these people of South Africa, is that you see, it's a pity that in that attack there was that crossfire and it's unfortunate that a kid died. I do apologise for that and for my orders but that was not the aim, to kill the kid, the aim was to kill the policeman. I ...(indistinct) my apology on that. MR MOLEFE Did you know that Mr Kulele lived with his wife and his kid in that house? MR NKOSI I didn't know because I didn't do the reconnaissance at the place and I didn't do the surveillance on the place. MR MOLEFE Is it so that you completed the application form for amnesty by yourself? MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE Were you not assisted by any attorney? MR NKOSI No. CHAIRPERSON Is your mike on Mr Molefe? Perhaps you can repeat that, I don't think your mike was on when you said that. MR MOLEFE Thank you, Mr Chair. Is it so that you completed the amnesty application by yourself? MR NKOSI That's correct. MR MOLEFE And that you were not assisted by anybody to complete this application? MR NKOSI That's correct. MR MOLEFE And that the signature appearing on that application is your signature? MR NKOSI That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you sign it before a Commissioner of Oaths? Did you sign your application form before a Commissioner of Oaths, because if you take a look at page 43 of the papers, and what I have here before me is merely a photocopy, it doesn't appear so but I don't know if the original was or wasn't signed before a Commissioner of Oaths. MR NKOSI No, no, Mr Chairman, but I do have my copy which I took it to, recently I took it to a Commissioner of Oaths and he signed it. CHAIRPERSON Do you have a copy signed by a Commissioner of Oaths? I wonder if that could be submitted up to us. MR NKOSI ...(indistinct) MR MOLEFE I will forward it, Mr Chairman. That is all. CHAIRPERSON Do you confirm that this one that we have before us was completed by yourself and you confirm the contents as being correct and binding on your conscience? MR NKOSI Yes, Mr Chairman. MR MOLEFE That is all, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLEFE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, do you have any questions? MR MOHLABA I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mokone has none, Mr Mohlaba has none. Ms Monyane I'm sure she doesn't, she wouldn't have not being involved. Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT Mr Chairman, I would like just a five minutes stand-down if I may. CHAIRPERSON I see it's just shortly before eleven, perhaps we can take the tea adjournment at this stage for approximately half an hour. MR JOUBERT I will continue after that, Chairman, thanks. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will now take the tea adjournment and resume at about twenty past eleven. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLEFE ... with Mr Nkosi. Mr Nkosi, you have testified about Webster, can you just briefly give us his background? MR NKOSI After, before or? MR MOLEFE His background, what was he? CHAIRPERSON What do you know about Webster? MR NKOSI Okay. Webster was the intelligence guy working for Rodney Toka, working under Rodney Toka's command. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what his name was, other than Webster? MR NKOSI No, I didn't know his name. And during our arrest in 1988, Webster was separated from us and during the trial in Delmas Webster, according to the information I got, he was a State witness who ended up working with the police, who ended up being an Askari member. The information I got after my return from exile is that Webster, after the trial of Bennie Mokonyane, Webster was killed. I don't know in the barracks or the police or was he killed in the township but what I know is that Webster is no more with us. MR MOLEFE Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Molefe. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether he gave evidence at the trial? MR NKOSI I heard so. CHAIRPERSON Was Bennie's trial separate from yours? Didn't you say Bennie was accused number 8? MR MOLEFE If I could just be of assistance to the Committee, after the escape of the nine other co-accused the trials were separated. CHAIRPERSON So Bennie's trial proceeded in the absence of the other applicants? MR NKOSI That's correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Joubert, do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT I do have questions, Mr Chairman. Mr Nkosi, if I can take the Commission to page 40 of your application in which you also admit that the handwriting is your handwriting. I'd like to point out that in your application you said: "I regarded anyone who worked within South African Special Branch ..." "Special Branch." Now this week the Commission has heard different versions of how policemen were attacked. In the one instance Mr Toka said his version was people that were an enemy or attacking ANC comrades' houses and then your version, or in your application you said: "the Special Branch" In your testimony you said: "The ANC headquarters has sent commands that all policemen must be attacked." Now what version is the right version? MR NKOSI There's nothing wrong in Special Branch and the SAP, they are all policemen. CHAIRPERSON No, but I think what Mr Joubert is getting to is, when you testified here today you said that the order was received that all policemen should, I think the word you used was "be isolated". MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON In other words, that all policemen be regarded as the enemy. MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Whereas in your application in paragraph 10(b) which appears on page 40 of the papers, you say "I regarded anyone who worked within South African Special Branch as an enemy." You confined the enemy to only be a portion of the police, namely the Special Branch who we know were that branch of the police involved in political investigations. So Mr Joubert is asking you why this difference, why do you now say "all policemen" whereas in fact you restricted it to only members of the Special Branch in your application. MR NKOSI To explain it in a broader perspective is that Special Branch policemen mainly they were used to arrest ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, no we know what the difference is but we ...(intervention) MR NKOSI But I want to bring it, Mr Chairman, I want to bring it why ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why you said this. MR NKOSI Special Branch and why the policemen. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR NKOSI They were used to arrest the MK cadres but during the process of arresting an MK cadre they can employ and usually employed assistance from the SAP, uniformed policemen. CHAIRPERSON So what are you trying to say, that when you said in your application that you regarded the Special Branch as your enemy, you meant all the policemen? MR NKOSI Ja, that's what I meant. MR JOUBERT Mr Nkosi, yes it's quite easy to, at this time to rectify your meaning of Special Branch and/or policemen. Tell me, Mr Nkosi, in your testimony you said that you - a question was asked that you stayed in Mamelodi before you were arrested, so I can assume that after you came back into the country in the beginning of the '80's you went straight to Mamelodi as well. MR NKOSI Yes. MR JOUBERT Did you in that time start knowing people around you, get acquainted with people around you? MR NKOSI I knew the people who were around me. MR JOUBERT And was there any possibility that you - let me put it this way, when was the first time you have met Webster? MR NKOSI It was - the time I met Mr Toka that's when I met Webster. MR JOUBERT Is that the time you met Mr Toka? MR NKOSI Yes. MR JOUBERT Now tell me Mr Nkosi, did you at certain times meet Mr Webster at different places or did you meet him at home or where did these meetings usually take place? MR NKOSI Different places. MR JOUBERT Different places? MR NKOSI Yes. MR JOUBERT But if you say different places, at your house, Webster's house, Mr Toka's house, where? MR NKOSI At times at my place. MR JOUBERT Ja. MR NKOSI At times at a meeting point, meeting points. MR JOUBERT Ja, and Mr Toka's house? MR NKOSI Toka had no house. MR JOUBERT And Webster? MR NKOSI They had no specific place where they stayed. MR JOUBERT So Webster was ...(intervention) MR NKOSI Let me clarify you. Mr Toka was roving the country, he had a place to sleep maybe in Mamelodi East, he had a place in Mamelodi West, he had a place in, maybe in Atteridgeville, I don't know, maybe in Krugersdorp. When he's absent in Mamelodi, I don't know about the outside Mamelodi. MR JOUBERT And tell me, there was no instance that you had met Webster at his house? MR NKOSI No. MR JOUBERT How long did you know Webster? MR NKOSI I know him through Mr Toka. MR JOUBERT For how many years? Let me put it this way, how many years? MR NKOSI I know him just - when Mr Toka was introduced ...(intervention) MR JOUBERT I'm asking how many years did you know Mr Webster. MR NKOSI Not years, months. MR JOUBERT How many months? MR NKOSI I can't recall, it can be six or less than six, plus-minus. MR JOUBERT And he never mentioned his address to you? MR NKOSI Pardon? MR JOUBERT He never mentioned his address to you? MR NKOSI His address? No. MR JOUBERT Okay. Mr Nkosi, in what unit was Webster stationed or attached to, what unit? MR NKOSI He was in the commanding structure of Mr Toka. MR JOUBERT But we've heard this week that there were different units operating with two or three cell members in Atteridgeville and Mamelodi, so I'm trying to establish what unit was Mr Webster being appointed to. MR NKOSI I don't know - I can't tell the structure of Mr Toka's units, but what I can tell you it's between me and Mr Toka, between me and Mr Webster, not about their units. MR JOUBERT You can say nothing about the units even though the possibility to be arrested, you didn't find out the background about each other, if this is a real comrade or not. MR NKOSI You know we operated illegally in the country, I don't have know someone, his background because you don't trust, you cannot trust so much whether is he a police, he's an informer or what but you had some limits. You talk with someone for a specific job you are doing at that point in time, then you stop there and then you disperse. MR JOUBERT Well, Mr Nkosi, the problem I have is that Webster was the person that only operated and only featured in one action, and that was the action or the executing of the hand-grenade into Mr Kulele's house. This whole week in the whole Mamelodi no other cases where attacks in Mamelodi on policemen's houses happened Webster's name appeared or was mentioned, it's only this specific case and I find it very, very strange. MR NKOSI So? MR JOUBERT The point I want to make to you is that Webster didn't exist, what do you think about that? It's only a person that's floating around in the evidence in the house attack where a little baby of 14 months died, what do you say about it? MR NKOSI So there was no person called Webster, it's what you are saying? MR JOUBERT Well I'm putting it to you, what's your answer on that? MR NKOSI Webster was there. Webster was the intelligence man. I did say in my chief evidence that he was the intelligence man of Mr Toka's commanding structure. MR JOUBERT You know, Mr Nkosi, ...(intervention) MR NKOSI So he did exist, Webster and he did some reconnaissance, not only on that house. Just to - I know an intelligence guy is being utilised in any different attacks but at this point I was there when he was giving that order, that's why I'm testifying that. MR JOUBERT What order was given? MR NKOSI To go and reconnoitre, to go and do surveillance in that area, target of Bennie Mokonyane. MR JOUBERT Who was present at that meeting? MR NKOSI At that meeting it's myself, Mr Toka, Webster and Bennie. MR JOUBERT And Bennie? MR NKOSI Ja. MR JOUBERT Tell me, Mr Nkosi, as far as I know in the surveillance only Webster was being sent to do intelligence on Mr Kulele? MR NKOSI Ja, since I've - is you recall my chief evidence, I was preparing Bennie. MR JOUBERT You were preparing Bennie? MR NKOSI Ja, to hand him over to Toka so he can assist them. CHAIRPERSON You were training him in logistic work? MR NKOSI Ja, but I did train him in a pistol and in explosives, I did mention that. So he was in the process of training. He was a civilian so to speak. You can't compare Bennie with Webster. Webster he was a trained personnel. MR JOUBERT In intelligence? MR NKOSI Yes. MR JOUBERT Only intelligence? MR NKOSI No, not only intelligence, he start basic training, military basic training and then he was specialised. MR JOUBERT So Webster was also trained in handling grenades and handling ...(intervention) MR NKOSI He was a soldier. MR JOUBERT He was a soldier. MR NKOSI Mm. MR JOUBERT I thought he was only in army intelligence. Tell, Mr Nkosi, now who gave the actual instruction, after gathering the intelligence, to attack Mr Kulele's house? MR NKOSI Who gave the instructions? MR JOUBERT Ja, who gave the instructions and authorization for it? MR NKOSI Mr Toka. All of us okay we were together, the instruction was given to Bennie Mokonyane that he can continue the attack. So since I was there I also was part of that, that I gave also instructions. MR JOUBERT So you also gave instructions? MR NKOSI No, Mr Toka gave instructions, since I was there listening also. MR JOUBERT Tell me, can you recall why it was decided to use a hand-grenade to conduct the attack? MR NKOSI Pardon? MR JOUBERT Can you recall why a decision was taken to use a hand-grenade to attack Mr Kulele's house? MR NKOSI I can't get your question clearly. CHAIRPERSON The question, Mr Nkosi is, do you know why it was decided that a hand-grenade be used in the attack? MR NKOSI I wasn't there. CHAIRPERSON When the order ...(intervention) MR NKOSI Because the attack, the agreement, we agreed that the attack must take place but the attack took place after some days which I was not there. So why it was agreed that a hand-grenade must be used, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Where did Bennie get his weapons from for the attack? MR NKOSI I think he got it from Mr Toka, or I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Why wouldn't he have got them from you seeing that you were dealing with the weapons? MR NKOSI Weapons. CHAIRPERSON Mm. MR NKOSI That was - as I've said that I handed over Bennie to Mr Toka, so it was his duty to see that Bennie is being utilised effectively. MR JOUBERT Mr Nkosi, Mr Toka in his evidence said that he only gave the authorization, he was not further involved in the attack or the planning, he gave the authorization. Now you're sitting here today and you're telling me that you hand Bennie over to Mr Toka and Mr Toka, from there on it was in Mr Toka's hands and he gave the instructions and he gave the authorization but Mr Toka said he only authorised the attack. MR NKOSI I'd like to bring this into attention that you know as I've said that we operated illegally we didn't keep records. If Toka as a busy man he had more than four to five units around the country, so if he can't recall, Mr Toka, that he gave the instruction, me now as I'm sitting here I'm telling you that he gave the instructions because I can recall on that particular day. MR JOUBERT And you can recall basically, you remembered quite well what exactly happened from the identification till afterwards, you recall everything? MR NKOSI No, I recall where I was present and ...(indistinct) we discussed. That was the things I was telling you in my chief evidence, that reconnaissance, surveillance, Bennie Mokonyane, Webster, myself and Toka, when we were discussing the target. MR JOUBERT What was discussed? MR NKOSI Pardon? MR JOUBERT What exactly was discussed in that meeting? MR NKOSI The targets. MR JOUBERT The targets, how many targets? MR NKOSI Generally I've said the policemen. MR JOUBERT You see Mr Nkosi, I still have a problem. In Mr Toka's main evidence he didn't even refer to meetings where discussions took place, how it's going to be executed, he only authorised the attacks and you're sitting here today and saying there was meetings, yourself, Mr Toka, Webster, Bennie Mokonyane. MR NKOSI How can you authorise ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Did we hear the name Bennie Mokonyane? Was Bennie's name mentioned earlier? MR JOUBERT Bennie's name was mentioned in that meeting, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON By Mr Toka? I mean in this evidence, have we heard the name before this witness? MR JOUBERT No, no, not in Mr Toka's evidence, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is there any reason, Mr Nkosi, why you didn't mention Bennie's name in your application form and why we hear his name for the first time when you testify now? MR MOLEFE Mr Chairman, before he answers this question, I'd just like to correct my learned friend. Mr Toka did mention Mr Mokonyane in his application. And inasfar as my client's application is concerned, you will see that he just generally refers to the case ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, no, I'm asking him is there any reason why he didn't mention Bennie in his application form. MR MOLEFE Okay. MR NKOSI Because Bennie Mokonyane was acquitted in this trial, in a court of law. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue, Mr Joubert. MR JOUBERT While we're on that subject, Mr Nkosi, why do you think Bennie was acquitted? MR NKOSI I can't think because - I don't know, I was not present. MR JOUBERT Let me help you. Most probably because there was not enough evidence to find him guilty on all charges laid against him, so he walked out of the court in the South African law. And today the indications - after listening to Mr Toka's evidence, listening to your evidence the question now is, who did because the implication is that Bennie did the assault or he threw or executed the attack on Mr Kulele's house? Now who did or who committed himself to attack a house where a 14 month old baby was sleeping in, because before this Commission this question is hanging in the air. MR NKOSI As I've mentioned earlier that I had my units to take, to look after, Mr Toka had his own units to look after but according I had my logistics in hand I had to assist Mr Toka but since the job was too heavy for me, that's why I introduced Bennie to Toka. So if they utilised Mr Mokonyane other way around, I was not there, I cannot answer for Bennie Mokonyane or for Mr Toka because I was also busy as much as Mr Toka was busy. So I just ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Sorry. Mr Toka in his evidence according to my notes said that this attack was approved in Botswana before the attack, do you know anything about that? MR NKOSI I don't know that. ...[inaudible] why she mentioned that because myself ...[indistinct] and he utilised Benny Mokgonyana. MR JOUBERT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nkosi, as far as I remember in your main evidence or testimony you said that you mostly operated alone. I'm a little bit confused, you just said that you had your units to take care of. Can you clarify that for me. MR NKOSI Okay, to clarify on that I was working with people in Swaziland myself and Mr Toka was reporting his orders in Botswana so he knew that I have people, have to work this, but since he lacked transport he was brought to me to come and assist him to retrieve his arms in the ...[indistinct] around the country. So I did but since I had my units to look after I introduced Benny Mokgonyana since he was a driver also to assist Mr Toka, that was the plan. MR JOUBERT Mr Nkosi you also said that a meeting took place after the attack to establish if the attack was successful or not. How long did the meeting take place after the attack, how many days? MR NKOSI You see all the attacks were being reported in the newspapers ...[intervention] MR JOUBERT Just answer my question. How many days afterwards? MR NKOSI I can't recall. MR JOUBERT You said a few days, is that correct? MR NKOSI Ja. MR JOUBERT You said a few days. Now I'm going to put it to you that Mr Toka in his main evidence also said that the meeting shortly afterwards took place. Now once again there's a vast difference between your testimony and Mr Toka's testimony? MR NKOSI Yes. MR JOUBERT Now who is correct now, who is speaking the truth here in front of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? MR NKOSI As I'm telling you Mr Chairman that we didn't keep records of this, if someone mentioned this then you can mention the correct date, I cannot dispute that. If he mentioned a day after that, I cannot dispute that but for me it's a few days because I'm not sure of the dates and the times. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just if I may interrupt Mr Joubert? Mr Molefe do you know who accused number 9 was at the trial? There doesn't seem to be - I haven't got a list of the - no there's nothing there. MR MOLEFE That is Mr Nkosi, the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Because I'm just putting this - apparently at the trial there were certain witnesses who gave evidence in camera and if you take a look at page 199 of the papers at lines 20 following, it says "The witness" that's one of these witnesses who testified at the trial in camera, this is from the judgement, the judge says" "The witness eventually met accused number 8 when accused number 9 had to buy liquor for accused 1. When he and accused number 8 were alone in the car, accused number 8 told him that he and accused number 9 threw a hand grenade into a certain house in Mamelodi Gardens and that they did not find the policeman that they wanted to kill but that they unfortunately had killed a small child." Now that was the evidence at the trial where this witness, I don't know who the witness was but some witness who gave evidence in camera says that number 8, that is Benny, accused number 8 said that - to him - that you and he, that's Benny, threw this grenade through. Do you have any comment on that evidence that I've just read? MR NKOSI Ja my comment is that if this is Webster's evidence, it is well known it he was a police informer already, it can be fabricated another way round to turn me down. CHAIRPERSON So you don't agree with that evidence at all? MR NKOSI I don't agree with this one. ADV DE JAGER Were you known as Tiger? MR NKOSI Pardon? ADV DE JAGER Were you known as Tiger? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT Mr Chairman, I was just looking into the documents can I ask for permission just for Mr Nkosi to repeat his answer on the question of the panel? CHAIRPERSON And he says - he was read that extract of the evidence page 122, line 28 and he said that if it was Mr Webster testifying then it's probably - then it's a fabrication, he didn't say probably, and he says disagrees with the evidence, it's incorrect, it's not the true evidence. This extract that it was Benny and him. MR JOUBERT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nkosi, I've listened to the answer on the question of the panel, now can you explain to me why would Webster say something that incriminated him in a trial like that? MR NKOSI As I've said earlier that Webster after we were arrested was separated from us. The reason why we didn't know because we were in solitary confinement for over plus minus six months so why he was separated we don't know but at a later stage we realised this guy is a police informer and he is working with the police, he came to be a state witness, he ended up being an askari and he ended up being dead in the hands of the police. MR JOUBERT Mr Nkosi, can you remember who provided a hand grenade for the attack? MR NKOSI I didn't provide. MR JOUBERT You didn't provide so ...[intervention] MR NKOSI Okay sorry, to whom? MR JOUBERT No, who provided a hand grenade for the attack? MR NKOSI To whom? MR JOUBERT To Benny. MR NKOSI I didn't provide. MR JOUBERT You didn't provide and Mr Toka didn't provide he only authorised. Now who gave the hand grenade? MR NKOSI I don't know but if it was my operation I had my own weapons anyway, I would have given him ...[intervention] MR JOUBERT Now why were you in a war in this operation if you didn't have any function in this operation? MR NKOSI It's my - I said it was not my operation, I had my own units as I'm telling you. I wanted to utilise Benny Mokgonyana as an operative like Mr Toka did, I would have done it so without handing over to Mr Toka but I'm telling you that I had my own weapons, I had my own explosives, I would have given him whatever I wanted him to have to go and execute those operations, I wanted him to execute. MR JOUBERT So you weren't really involved in this attack, in the planning, you weren't really involved? MR NKOSI No I was involved in the planning as I mentioned earlier. CHAIRPERSON You were involved in the extent that you happened to be present when certain reports were made? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON But did you make any contribution yourself to the planning? MR NKOSI Yes generally, not for a specific target but general target. CHAIRPERSON What did you do, what did you actually do other than being there and hearing what was being said? MR NKOSI No we were discussing the policemen but mostly the notorious ones and Benny had to identify those notorious policemen but anyway the target was general, the policemen must be attacked. MR JOUBERT Now just to clarify that Benny identified or did Webster identify the policemen. MR NKOSI Benny did the identification. MR JOUBERT And Webster only did surveillance on the house? MR NKOSI Ja according to the report I got. MR JOUBERT Can you remember if Benny was with him during this surveillance? MR NKOSI No I wasn't there. He parted after...[intervention] MR JOUBERT I'm just asking, can you remember if he did go with Webster to - Webster and Benny go together to do surveillance on the house? MR NKOSI No I don't remember. MR JOUBERT You can't remember. You see Mr Nkosi, I have a problem in the sense that we're sitting here with a situation that you weren't actually involved in the matter and that's why I'm finding it very strange that you apply for amnesty for this action because your involvement was very limited, it looks like in your testimony today in front of the Commission so what was the exact reason for applying for amnesty for this specific attack on the Kulele's house? MR NKOSI It's because I was there when it was discussed, when they bring back the report but he reconnoitred - okay, he didn't mention earlier, he didn't mention earlier that it was a specific target of Mr Kulele's house but he set the target. CHAIRPERSON But do you also apply for amnesty because you were in fact charged with this? MR NKOSI Yes. MR JOUBERT Mr Nkosi so in the beginning you said you didn't know what policemen's houses were the targets, that was not revealed at all. So when did you realise that Mr Kulele's house was attacked? MR NKOSI When we were in prison. CHAIRPERSON And just on that - sorry again, Mr Joubert, if you take a look at page 53. No, no, sorry. Don't worry. Sorry, it's page 45. You applied for - oh no, this is the court hearing again, sorry. Yes, no I won't put that. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Joubert, just to make a follow up on your very last statement you say you only realised whilst you were in prison that the house of Mr Kulele had been attacked. Who told you that whilst you were in prison? MR NKOSI Through the lawyers. ADV SANDI None of your comrades had told you? Benny had not told you anything about this before that? MR NKOSI We know that the house was attacked before that but I didn't know exactly which house was that. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR JOUBERT Now Mr Nkosi I must say I still find it strange that you've applied for amnesty on the attack on this house because of your statement today, you were not really involved there. Mr Nkosi, if I can ask this, I know you said that your knowledge of this attack was very limited so can I ask the indications that Benny threw or executed the attack and he threw a hand grenade through the window? MR NKOSI You're asking me that? MR JOUBERT I'm asking you that. MR NKOSI I don't know. MR JOUBERT Could it be Webster? MR NKOSI I don't know. MR JOUBERT So this question will never be answered, who actually executed the attack? MR NKOSI Ja I didn't know because I wasn't there. MR JOUBERT Well I've put it to you Mr Nkosi, that you were involved in this attack, it's just a statement I'm making. Webster has been used as a person that's just disappeared, no one can answer it, you know Mamelodi well, you stayed there, you know the people and Benny, he didn't apply for amnesty and that's it but in the meantime your role was very limited and you applied for amnesty. I'm putting it to you that your involvement was more far in this attack than you put it today to this Commission. No further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Dreyer, do you have any questions? MR DREYER I've got no questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Monyane do you have any questions? MS MONYANE No questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Molefe, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLEFE Yes, just one. Mr Nkosi, you said in your evidence in Chief that you were Mr Mokgonyana's commander in this two man unit is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE And you say that you were present when Mr Mokgonyana was given this thing, the instructions to proceed? MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE Can we just briefly tell this Committee again as to why are you taking responsibility of Mr Mokgonyana's actions because you said also in your evidence in chief that you accept responsibility of what Mokgonyana has done? MR NKOSI I must take responsibility because I recruited Benny Mokgonyana. I trained him, I introduced him to Mr Toka and we discussed that Benny Mokgonyana must work with Mr Toka. MR MOLEFE That's all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLEFE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Molefe, Mr de Jager do you have any questions? ADV DE JAGER I only want to put it that at the trial there was evidence given that you were in command of Benny, you were his commander and you in fact was in command of the operation when this child got injured and killed. What do you say on that? MR NKOSI I would say that I was Benny's commander, yes it's true. ADV DE JAGER At that stage when the child was killed? MR NKOSI At that stage because I was not there, I was not his commander. ADV DE JAGER Ja but he was still - was he still in your unit sort of at that stage although you were not there? MR NKOSI Yes he was still with me because I would have - if I wanted him I would have utilised him in my operations as well as much as Duka would have done that as well. ADV DE JAGER In all the other operations, I can't think of a single one that wasn't planned that two people would sort of go together to the same vicinity at least. Do you know what you've been doing on the day of this attack or can't you remember? MR NKOSI I can't remember since it's we didn't keep records and it's a long time past but then what I just want to clarify to the Committee is that since I had so many units, I had the unit in Nelspruit for example, I had the unit here in Mopani, I had a unit in Kwandabele, I had a unit in Witbank, so you see I had to travel and check and do whatever I do, the daily procedures with my unit but at that time during this operation I was not in Mamelodi so to speak, even if I was in Mamelodi I'm wasn't aware that there was an attack going on, on the other side of the township. ADV DE JAGER And did you order all those other units whatever they should do as far as the struggle is concerned? MR NKOSI Yes I did. My units I did order. ADV DE JAGER You haven't applied for anything illegal that your other units have done? MR NKOSI Yes because they haven't done anything anyway to talk, which is involving a gross human rights violation. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Sandi do you have any questions? MR SANDI Thank you Chair. Mr Nkosi, when you were infiltrated back into the country by the ANC as a soldier of uMkhonto weSizwe, what was your brief, what were you supposed to do. Did you have any specific task in relation to the police? MR NKOSI The police? Okay, the orders came after, of the police, but my general duties for the ANC was to recruit and establish more units as much as I can around the country but the order of policemen, it was just a call, the statement of I believe the time that we must isolate the police so we followed the call. ADV SANDI That call was made whilst you were already inside the country? MR NKOSI Yes. ADV SANDI Would I be correct to believe that from the evidence you have given it was part of your task to make it possible for the police to be attacked by members of uMkonto weSizwe? MR NKOSI Pardon, I can't hear you? ADV SANDI Was it part of your duty to make it possible to provide the logistics for attacks on members of the police force? MR NKOSI Yes it was my job. ADV SANDI Would it be necessary for you to know each and every specific incident in which a policeman has been attacked? MR NKOSI Not in my unit, not in someone's unit, but in my unit they have to know because the reports are coming to me direct so I have to draft a report and sent it to Lusaka, to Swaziland and to Lusaka. ADV SANDI Were you not supposed to get a report about this attack on the house of Mr Kulele? MR NKOSI It was falling in my unit, it was not my operation. ADV SANDI But you were present when the discussions took place? MR NKOSI It was a common target not specifically my operation. ADV SANDI I get the impression from your evidence that you had no contribution to make in that particular discussion? You seem not to have made any contribution in the discussion when Benny and Toka were talking about attacking the house of Mr Kulele? MR NKOSI Not specifically - no I contributed because Benny, he came, his my - at that time - he knew these guys because of me and I was there, so my contribution, since I was there, discussing these common targets, the policemen, generally, that was the contribution I made that they must be attacked. ADV SANDI Did you make any contributions specifically in regard to Mr Kulele? MR NKOSI I didn't specifically but not with regard to Mr Kulele's house. ADV SANDI Was that name, Mr Kulele, specifically mentioned in that discussion? MR NKOSI It was not mentioned. It was not mentioned. ADV SANDI Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Why do you think, with Mr Toka, named you as an operative in the attack on Mr Kulele's house? MR NKOSI I can't - I don't know why he was mentioning that because he can answer that, he's here, Mr Toka. I can't answer for him because I don't know why he mentioned me as an operative in that house but if he mentioned me through Benny, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER No he said you and Benny were the operatives in this attack? CHAIRPERSON Just like in the evidence that I read in the trial? MR NKOSI Yes but I don't know why exactly he mentioned that but the point is Benny, if he did the attack, him alone or if someone as I was not there and I don't know with whom he was there during that attack. CHAIRPERSON Now if he was with anybody? MR NKOSI If he was, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Now if you were Benny's commander, why wouldn't he have reported back to you? MR NKOSI I was his commander. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NKOSI But at that time he was in the hands of Toka. CHAIRPERSON Yes but I mean he was your pupil, you were his mentor, you were the person training him, you trained him in the use of guns, you trained him in logistics, you said that you were his commander, why wouldn't he have gone back, why would he do his first operation and then just be quiet about it to you, his mentor. MR NKOSI The person who gave him the ammunition or explosives who armed him to go and do that attack, he must report back to him. CHAIRPERSON No but you said you gave the order, you were one of the people who gave the order in your evidence in chief? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON I know, I'm just trying to ask if you can explain why he wouldn't have come back, taking into account you recruited him? MR NKOSI Ja. CHAIRPERSON You trained him? MR NKOSI Ja. CHAIRPERSON Not only in logistics but in the use of weaponry? MR NKOSI Ja. CHAIRPERSON You were present when the order was given that the operation be carried out? MR NKOSI Ja. CHAIRPERSON Now when that's - I'll get back to that just now. You were his commander and yet he doesn't even tell you, make mention, even in passing conversation that he's carried out an act? Don't you find that to be somewhat strange? MR NKOSI We didn't meet immediately with Benny. CHAIRPERSON It's when you met later, I'm not talking about how quick or soon, even if you met him a year later, even if you met it doesn't matter how much later. Isn't it strange that he didn't talk to you about the operation? MR NKOSI Because I already had information that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But for him to talk to you, you find that strange or not? MR NKOSI No we talked about it later at a later stage. CHAIRPERSON And what did he say? MR NKOSI He said that no the attack was unsuccessful. CHAIRPERSON Did he say he threw the hand grenade? MR NKOSI Pardon? CHAIRPERSON Did he say he threw the hand grenade? MR NKOSI I didn't ask him so far. CHAIRPERSON So he was with somebody? MR NKOSI I didn't ask him that, just mentioned to him that the attack was not successful. CHAIRPERSON Now can you explain something else to me Mr Nkosi, you said that Benny was still being trained. Why should some - and he was not yet a full member of MK? MR NKOSI Ja. CHAIRPERSON Why should somebody like that be sent on an operation without his commander because we learn from the facts that the operation was botched up, a one year old baby was killed instead of the target? MR NKOSI That was the way - that was the part of the training. CHAIRPERSON And you were doing the training, that's why I'm asking you why should he be sent alone to conduct an operation when he's not properly trained, he's still going through the training and we also as Mr de Jager says, every incident we've heard there's always been more than one operative. MR NKOSI Yes because you see Benny Mokgonyana, if I hand over Benny Mokgonyana to Mr Toka, I don't hand him over to a civilian guy. CHAIRPERSON But Mr Toka in his evidence said the operatives were you and Benny? MR NKOSI No I'm answering that, if I handed him over to Mr Toka, I know Mr Toka is well trained, he will still go through the drills with whatever weapons he is going to use for that operation. You can't just - even in a military norms, before you do that you must do the drills before and then you attack. CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions arising Mr Molefe from questions put by the panel? MR MOLEFE No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert, any questions arising? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Yes Mr Chairman if you'd allow me just a minute or two? Mr Nkosi, you said as well now to questions from the Commission that you have learned that the attack took place or the attack on Mr Kulele's house that you have learned about that in jail, am I correct? CHAIRPERSON He said he learned of the name of the victim in the jail, he'd heard of the attack before but he learned for the first time that it was Mr Kulele's house that was attacked. MR JOUBERT My apologies Mr Chairman. Now you have heard his name in the jail and you said in your testimony that you were present in a general meeting where attacks on policemen's houses were discussed but policemen's houses were notorious? Now I'm asking you the question again, why are you asking amnesty on this specific case and not on all the other cases? MR NKOSI It's because I was charged with these cases, it was a common purpose when I was charged. MR JOUBERT Yes but all you see what Mr Joubert is asking you, all the other cases were there as well, it wasn't only Mr Kulele's house. There was the Ndala's house and the other houses, Mashele's house etcetera that we've - Mveke's house as well in the charge sheet. Now what Mr Joubert is asking is, he's saying that you said that you were present when there were these discussions taken about policemen's houses being attacked in general and that the police were to be isolated etcetera, etcetera. Why then are you only applying for amnesty in respect of the attack on the Kulele household and not in respect of the attacks on the Mveke, Ndala, etcetera, other households where other policemen - not Ndala, he wasn't really a policeman but where other policemen's houses were attacked especially taking into account the very small minimal, as you say, role you played in the Nkosi attack? MR NKOSI Because when I was sitting in prison I was interrogated about that house. CHAIRPERSON So is that the only reason why you're applying for amnesty only in respect of that? MR NKOSI So I learned that rumour, that trial in Delmas that I've been charged with this operation, that's why I'm now applying for amnesty for that because why, I took part in the discussion of this operation in Mamelodi. ADV DE JAGER You also took part in the discussion of the operation on Mveke's house or on the other policemen that were attacked? MR NKOSI No except police, general police, not specifically namely Mveke, Kulele and the other police. ADV DE JAGER Yes but these names you told us, you didn't even know the names so you didn't specifically know that it was Kulele's house? MR NKOSI During the discussion at the earlier stage before I was arrested so we learned this during the preparation of the case through the lawyers, that house was Mr so and so, that house was Mr so and so and that house was Mr so and so. ADV DE JAGER But then you have learned at that discussion too that the house of Mr Mveke was attacked? MR NKOSI Which discussion? ADV DE JAGER With your lawyers, they would have put it to you because according to the charge sheet you were charged with all the events for common purpose and they had to go through every event? MR NKOSI Yes. ADV DE JAGER And you're in fact asking for amnesty for all the events in your papers and now you've singled out this one and we want to know why specifically single out this one if you were not involved at all? MR NKOSI Because I was charged with that one. ADV DE JAGER You were charged with every one Mr Nkosi. MR NKOSI No because during my interrogation, even my lawyers told me I was charged specifically with this one, that is if I didn't escape from prison I would have stand in the witness box specifically for this case, specifically for that operation. CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT ADV DE JAGER But if you're not guilty on this one, have you committed any offence as regards this operation? MR NKOSI ...[indistinct] ADV DE JAGER No, on my Kulele's house, have you committed any offence? MR NKOSI I can tell you that if I knew that was Mr Kulele's house, for general policemen yes I committed an offence, for ...[indistinct] policemen were discussed. ADV DE JAGER Ja but in this one how would it differ then if it's for general policemen, how would this one differ from the others? MR NKOSI Yes because I was implicated in that case. ADV DE JAGER But you yourself, as you sit there, did you commit any offence as regard the Kulele's? MR NKOSI No. ADV DE JAGER So why do you ask for amnesty then if there's no offence? MR NKOSI Because of the implication, it was made to me. ADV DE JAGER You were aware of it that you can't get amnesty for something you haven't done? MR NKOSI No because I was implicated then, I was charged with that so I had to ask for amnesty for that. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. ADV SANDI You were implicated by who? MR NKOSI By Webster. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Molefe? FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MOLEFE On that issue, you testified earlier that Mokgonyana told you that the operation was not successful and unfortunately a child was killed. Is that correct? MR NKOSI That is correct. MR MOLEFE And therefore must have realised at that time that your subordinate Mr Mokgonyana has committed an offence, is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes. MR MOLEFE That's all NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLEFE CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Thank you Mr Nkosi, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON During the tea adjournment we received information that there's a possibility that a further witness may be called and I don't know, have you any further information on further witnesses at this stage? MR JOUBERT Mr Chairman, if you'll excuse me just for a minute I can go and establish if ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON While Mr Joubert is doing that are any other witnesses to be called? Are any other persons to be called to testify. MR JOUBERT Well if that includes the victims, yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON How many victims do you intend to call Mr Dreyer? I just want to get some idea of the logistics involved. MR DREYER Mr Chairman at this state at least one of the victims that I represent indicated that she would want to give evidence. There might be more than one as I also indicated yesterday, would not be lengthy evidence but still they would wish to give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Yes I understand. Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT Mr Chairman if I can request the Commission to stand down until 2 o'clock, I've established that he's at work, we have established where his work address and we're on our way to send people to go and fetch him from his work so if I can humbly ask the Commission to stand down until 2 o'clock which will enable me to get the witness to come and testify. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dreyer would you want to call the victim now? Not the victim, your client? MR DREYER Mr Chairman I would in any way if that would be the next witness to testify I would also ask just to finalise the situation. CHAIRPERSON Well perhaps in order to save time if it's possible, I don't know if Mr Joubert wants to be present, or there's nothing for you to do until 2 o'clock, you're waiting basically. If it's possible to do it before the lunch hour then we can do so if you want otherwise we can start at half past 1 and take the lunch hour now. MR JOUBERT I'll take a very brief standing down. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a brief adjournment at this stage. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR DREYER Mr Chairman, I would call Mrs Prinsloo which is one of the victims of the so called Juicy Lucy blast. I would just like to place it on record that Mrs Prinsloo wishes to give her evidence in Afrikaans and also wishes to be cross-examined in Afrikaans. I would however if necessary address the Commission in English. CHAIRPERSON But yes the cross-examination of course can be done in any language but it will be interpreted into Afrikaans so what she will receive through her headphones would be all Afrikaans. ANNA MARIA PRINSLOO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR DREYER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Prinsloo, you are one of the victims of the so called Juicy Lucy bomb blast or limpet mine blast which took place on a specified date in 1988, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes it is. MR DREYER 88-5-26. I would like to take you back to the event on that day, it's a number of years ago we realised that as far as details are concerned it might not be as fresh in your memory but I would like to ask you to reply to my questions to the best of your ability. Mrs Prinsloo, on that particular day what was your occupation and in whose service were you? MRS PRINSLOO I was a librarian in the service if the City Council of Pretoria. MR DREYER At that stage, madame, did you support any particular political party? MRS PRINSLOO No, not at all, I was totally apolitical. MR DREYER On that particular day according to your instructions to me you visited the Juicy Lucy in the vicinity of the crossing of Andries and Vermeulen Streets during a lunch hour, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER Were you alone? MRS PRINSLOO No, four of my colleagues were with me - five of my colleagues and we were on lunch there. MR DREYER And four of these five persons including yourself were then eventually injured in the incident, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER Okay let us start with this Juicy Lucy where you spent your lunch hour. Testimony had been put forward by the various applicants that on the basis of information they obtained by observation of this specific restaurant, if I may call it that, that according to their information it was a restaurant which was regularly frequented by, in particular, members of the South African Defence Force as it was known at the time and more specifically because about a block away there were certain Defence Force offices. What is your comment to this? MRS PRINSLOO Because the restaurant is just across the street from the library, it is a place that I myself also visited quite regularly and my impressions were that it was mostly a restaurant visited by women and I did from time to time see female members of the Defence Force there but very seldom the male members of the Defence Force. MR DREYER If you were to guess the distribution or the grouping of the people who visited the restaurant, what would you say percentage wise how the distribution of men versus women were when you visited the restaurant. MRS PRINSLOO It could be about five to 10 percent men who visited the restaurant, mostly women visited the place. MR DREYER At one stage I stated to one of the applicants that this specific restaurant, the Juicy Lucy, was known for the fact that it was a restaurant group that specialised in serving health food? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct, that is also why I went and ate there regularly, I know on more than one occasion my colleagues and I for that particular reason went to spend lunch there, to enjoy lunch there. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Prinsloo, could you give us an indication as to how regularly you used to visit there, was it once a week or every day or once a month, every second Thursday of the month, whatever? MRS PRINSLOO It could easily have been once per month - once per week I beg your pardon. MR DREYER On some occasions I put it to the applicant that during lunch hour the menu not always included the cheapest of items, would you agree with that? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. MR DREYER So you would agree that it was not really something that fitted the pocket of the average man in the street? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct and I don't think the normal Defence Force staff member would on a daily basis go and enjoy lunch there. CHAIRPERSON Yes but the generals might, the officers might go there. MRS PRINSLOO Yes if I were to think what men mainly enjoy eating, it's not the type of food they would enjoy. MR DREYER Just to place that in perspective, the restaurant's menu specialises in health breads, fruit juices and salads, this type of meal, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER On the particular day when this bomb explosion occurred were you together with some of your colleagues were injured, can you remember whether there was a high concentration of Defence Force members besides the normal pattern in the Juicy Lucy? MRS PRINSLOO No. MR DREYER If this had been the case would it have been something that would have struck you? MRS PRINSLOO Yes it would have been something that would have struck me because I was a regular visitor to the restaurant. MR DREYER If there had been a fairly high concentration of Defence Force staff for example in the Juicy Lucy would you have expected those people for example to have assisted you and the other ladies after the bomb explosion? MRS PRINSLOO Yes I would imagine so. MR DREYER Was there any reference of this kind? MRS PRINSLOO No. MR DREYER Let us look at the premises. It was stated on your behalf to some of the applicants that this flower box in which the limpet mine had been placed was about between 20 and 30 metres from the entrance of Juicy Lucy, would you agree with that? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER When one left the Juicy Lucy premises, if I understand your instruction correctly and I put it in that manner to the applicants as well, when you left the entrance you would go onto an area which you could refer to as a stoep and then you had to pass between some flower boxes and pillars to get onto the sidewalk, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes, one had to walk forward, about four or five steps and then to the right to go down a ramp onto the sidewalk. MR DREYER Now am I correct if I say that this stoep portion which also was situated in front of the Juicy Lucy is on a somewhat elevated level in relation to the sidewalk? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER That would then explain why one had to walk down a ramp eventually to the sidewalk? ADV DE JAGER I beg your pardon but Mrs Prinsloo, was the Juicy Lucy situated on the south-western block, not on the corner itself but on the south-western frontage of the building? MRS PRINSLOO No the north-western corner. ADV DE JAGER Is that opposite the Legal and General building? MRS PRINSLOO Right opposite it. ADV DE JAGER And where the Department of Finance and Receiver of Revenue's offices were? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And that building is situated on the corner and then there is virtually like an alleyway right round the building with shops situated and fronting on this alleyway? MRS PRINSLOO That is correct. ADV DE JAGER So those entrances were basically away from the entrance and not fronting on the sidewalk? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And was Juicy Lucy one of these shops fronting on this walkway or alleyway, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. MR DREYER Mr Chairman, if I may just for the purpose of clarification state the following because that might be an item of confusion. The flower box is one of several such flower boxes and there are also pillars which in fact formed part of the outer construction of this very building so you get the limit of the premises I would say, then there's a sort of as Commissioner De Jager indicated there's a sort of a passageway right around the building and on the edge of that, on the very edge and limit, there are these flower boxes and pillars. If that would make it little bit more ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. ADV DE JAGER I think it is very difficult for somebody who doesn't know the building to understand it but perhaps it would assist if you had a sketch plan at some stage that you could submit because the impression is that Juicy Lucy was one of the little shops fronting on the street which is not the actual fact. MR DREYER I take cognisance of this Mr Chair, we will submit such a little drawing as soon as possible or practicable. Okay, so you moved out of Juicy Lucy onto the stoep portion then you said you had to move forward a number of steps and then turn right towards this ramp leading onto the sidewalk, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER And when you moved through this area you eventually then also pass next to this flower box into which the limpet mine had been placed, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER Where more or less in relation to Juicy Lucy or how far compared to the Juicy Lucy entrance were you when the bomb exploded? MRS PRINSLOO 20 plus yards. MR DREYER And how close would you say you were to the flower box when the explosion took place? MRS PRINSLOO I was directly next to it, I could have touched it. MR DREYER Upon your instruction you told me that you indeed had actually been looking in the direction of the flower box and the flowers in particular when the explosion occurred, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. MR DREYER Does that also explain why the largest number of your injuries were on your right hand side of your face? MRS PRINSLOO Yes although it actually struck me fully in the face although the injuries to my right ear, the right eye and right arm were more than on the left side of my face and body. MR DREYER Could we briefly pause and just get a summary of the nature and extent of the injuries you sustained there? MRS PRINSLOO I sustained shrapnel wounds, sever shrapnel wounds to my face and right hand side of my neck. Both eyes were injured, I had to undergo a cornea transplant, both of my eardrums were pierced, had burst, the left one had closed up after about six months but I had to undergo two operations to my right eardrum and I still have problems with my right ear. I also had massive shrapnel wounds to my right arm, particularly my elbow and it is giving me daily problems, I still have shrapnel in my arm and in my face and in my eyes. MR DREYER In addition the surgical procedures that had to be carried out to correct his damage you also had permanent scars to your face and other portions of your body, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. MR DREYER And as you had indicated you still experience pain today as a consequence of what had happened and the shrapnel that still remains in your body? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. MR DREYER Madame you already indicated that at that stage you were apolitical, was that only limited to you yourself or was that the point of view of the household of which you were part? MRS PRINSLOO Well it was our point of view because my husband was employed in the Department of Justice. MR DREYER Did you at that stage or at any stage when this incident took place maintain a certain point of view with regard to human rights or the rights of other members of our population group regarding their call on normal human rights and being allowed a normal life? MRS PRINSLOO I then and still now am against any detrimental act to human right. MRS PRINSLOO All the applicants, Mr Toka in particular, or the relevant applicants as well as Mr Toka asked me while I was cross-examining him whether it would make any difference to me as legal representative representing you if the persons who were injured there had been blacks. I would like to pose the question to you whether it would have made any difference to you if it were to become apparent that the people who had planted the bomb had been whites? MRS PRINSLOO It would have made no difference to me whether it was a white dog that bit me or a black dog that bit me, I would have had a bite mark and I would have had a feeling about it. MR DREYER Would it be possible for you to say that you were to forgive the people who had caused these injuries to you? What is your feeling about this? MRS PRINSLOO It is not possible for me to forgive them because they over and over said that they had forgotten after ten years but unfortunately I myself, nor my family, cannot forget after ten years because we have to live with this for the rest of our lives. MR DREYER You said in your instruction to me that part of the reason why it was difficult for you to forget this and remove these events in your memory, it is because of the continuation of senseless violence in this country? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. MR DREYER Can you qualify? MRS PRINSLOO Well we lived in Cape Town over the past two years and with all the senseless pipe bomb attacks there, particularly the Planet Hollywood attack, it brought back all the memories again and one just realises anew the senselessness of all of this. MR DREYER Madame would you say that there is a difference in your mind between attacks that were carried out at that stage by members of the South African Security Forces on institutions and active participants in the liberation organisations and vice versa, in other words also actions carried out by for example uMkonto weSizwe on Defence Force establishments and police force. Would you distinguish in your mind between these two kinds of actions which were typical of a war situation or semi-war situation as opposed to the incident which involved you? MRS PRINSLOO They were in a war situation, I was an innocent citizen out on lunch in the centre of Pretoria so that was not war. MR DREYER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mrs Prinsloo. Mr Mohlaba do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you Chair, just one aspect. Mrs Prinsloo, is it correct that the people who planted this device were not known to you prior to this explosion? MRS PRINSLOO That is correct. MR MOHLABA And is it correct that either than sustaining injuries after this bomb went off you were not robbed of any of your personal belongings? MRS PRINSLOO No, I did not lose consciousness. MR MOHLABA Lastly Mrs Prinsloo, this is not a question. You have heard the evidence of all the applicants here and they have indicated that they were - they planted that bomb or caused these injuries to you because of the conflict of the past and that this bomb was not placed at that position to target you in particular or other persons who were injured with you but it was aimed at bringing down the apartheid regime. Do you accept their explanation? MRS PRINSLOO If they wanted to attack the Defence Force members they would have planted the bomb in front of the Defence Force headquarters, not in a flower box where thousands of people have to pass by on a daily basis. MR MOHLABA Thank you Chair, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Mr Molefe do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOLEFE Yes Mr Chair. Ma'am you said that you visited this particular restaurant at least once a week, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR MOLEFE And for how long would you stay at this restaurant when you visited it once a week? MRS PRINSLOO Sometimes I bought food to take away and often I sat there, so sometimes it could have been half an hour, often half an hour. MR MOLEFE Would you agree with me that probably never more than an hour at any particular stage? MRS PRINSLOO That is correct. MR MOLEFE And did you visit this restaurant at particular times, that is when you were there or did you just go there randomly? CHAIRPERSON In other words did you always go there at lunchtime or would you go there at eleven o'clock in the morning sometimes three in the afternoon or was it always at lunchtime? MRS PRINSLOO It was always at lunchtime. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Molefe, Mrs Prinsloo can you remember what time this bomb blew up? MRS PRINSLOO It was just past 1 o'clock in the afternoon. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Molefe? MR MOLEFE So the views that you expressed about the people who frequent that restaurant is limited only to your lunchtime and which is not more than thirty minutes a week, that is when you went to that restaurant? MRS PRINSLOO Can you please repeat the question? MR MOLEFE The views that you had expressed in your evidence in chief about the people that frequent this restaurant, those views you formed them on the basis of this time that you spent at that restaurant which is about 30 minutes a week and during particular times, your lunchtime? MRS PRINSLOO My lunch hour could have been from quarter past 12 to 2 o'clock, it fluctuated. It was 45 minutes long so I didn't go at a specific time and also not on any specific day. MR MOLEFE Okay and you'll agree with me that if it is on the average once a week it adds to two hours a month because you went there only for ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I don't think we need any evidence on this, we can work it out arithmetically but you can put it to her. MR MOLEFE Ma'am you said that you were apolitical at that stage, is that correct? You were not? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR MOLEFE Did you vote in the elections just before that bomb blast? MRS PRINSLOO When was the election before the explosion. MR MOLEFE I was not on ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think what Molefe's asking you is did you vote in the elections prior to the bomb blast in the elections for the new government, were you a voter? MRS PRINSLOO I didn't always go and vote even though I could vote, I was eligible to vote. MR MOLEFE So what I just wanted to be sure about is whether you had voted at any stage in the past before this incident happened? MRS PRINSLOO That is correct. MR MOLEFE Okay. Ma'am were you aware of ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Mr Molefe, I understand the line of your question. That would be relevant if for instance this witness was targeted because she voted for the Nationalist Party or some other party but as I understood the case she was never a target so whether she voted for the CP or the NP or the PFP or whoever was irrelevant? MR MOLEFE Maybe the relevance of my question will come later if you can just allow me to continue with my cross-examination? CHAIRPERSON Yes continue. MR MOLEFE Ma'am...[intervention] MR DREYER Mr Chairman, may I just at this stage enquire ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think you're enquiring about the relevance because you specifically asked what her political affiliations were and she said she was apolitical so I don't think it's unreasonable, you know, it's just to ask on that whether a person voted or not. MR DREYER Mr Chairman, that was not the purpose of my intended question. If I may just enquire, if I remember correctly, none of the applicants represented by Mr Molefe was ever indicated to have been involved in this particular incident so I suppose he's entitled to ask questions. The only problem is that I fail to see the relevance of any cross-examination that pertains to the particular applicants on ...[indistinct] MR MOLEFE If I can just be allowed to continue with it, just ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just a second. ADV DE JAGER Perhaps you could respond. MR MOLEFE Okay. ADV DE JAGER Your clients didn't apply for amnesty in this case so are you ...[inaudible] are you authorised, are you mandated to ask questions to this Commission? MR MOLEFE I am representing Mr George Mathe who has applied for amnesty in respect of the so called Juicy Lucy bombing, Advocate de Jager. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR MOLEFE And maybe if I may just respond to the relevance of this question. It will be argued that the ANC instructed it's cadres to take the war from the townships to the white areas and if I can just maybe be allowed to ask a few more questions you will realise probably why it was decided that the war should be extended ...[intervention] MR DREYER Mr Chairman, if I may just respond to my learned friend's remark now. I have pointed it out explicitly to some of the applicants quoting from the very statement of the ANC to the TRC in this regard from the Kabwe. CHAIRPERSON The Kabwe Conference. MR DREYER In terms of the statement, the official statement of the ANC, it was clear that the struggle was to be expanded to these so called white areas but still limited to police and military installations situated within the white areas and not to white civilian targets. That is how I understood the official statement of the ANC so once again I fail to see how my learned friend intends to argue at the end of this case something which is clearly contrary to the policy of the ANC as organisation. CHAIRPERSON But my understanding from the evidence on that, Mr Molefe and we're being derailed now, we're talking about argument when we shouldn't be. Is that the evidence of the applicant? On my understanding, you can correct me if I'm wrong when you argue ultimately, was that that specific corner was targeted because of the presence of military personnel? They didn't come and say we put it there because we were taking the war into the white areas and in any event we know that the CBD of the town can't be classified as a white area, I mean there's all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds and races congregate to make their living. MR MOLEFE With due respect Mr Chairman, I don't want to dwell on this issue, it is not necessarily the cornerstone of our client's application. CHAIRPERSON Let's proceed, I think we're wasting time now, just proceed, you can carry on, you can ask some questions. MR MOLEFE Just one or two questions in respect of this aspect, I'm not going to dwell on it any longer. Were you aware of the existence of the African National Congress and uMkonto weSizwe just before you were injured in this blast? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR MOLEFE How did you become aware of that, was it through newspapers, through T.V. or any other medium? MRS PRINSLOO I was a librarian at that stage, I read widely, books, newspapers, magazines, I listened to the radio, I watched television. MR MOLEFE Okay, maybe I should leave that one at that. You worked in that area in the corner of Andries and Vermeulen Street. Can you just tell us of the government buildings that are around that corner, just around that vicinity? MRS PRINSLOO Across the road is the Department of Finance and further down the road closer to Van der Walt Street was the liberty life building where the defence force was. MR MOLEFE Will you agree with me that this particular building that is occupied by the Defence Force stretches close to the corner of Vermeulen and Andries Street up to Van der Walt Street probably? It's quite a big building. MRS PRINSLOO Yes it is quite a big building but it's closer to Van der Walt street as to Andries Street. I think you must just go and check again how close to Van der Walt Street it in fact is and how far it is from Andries Street. MR MOLEFE Were you and your four colleagues the only people who were injured according to your knowledge? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR MOLEFE And is it so that the four of you were very close to this flower pot where the explosion happened? MRS PRINSLOO Yes we were directly next to the flower box. MR MOLEFE And all the other people who were further away from you or from that flower box were not injured, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON She said that they were the only ones injured, Mr Molefe. Do you have any further questions? MR MOLEFE Yes I'm just considering one or two more questions. No, that's all, that's all Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLEFE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mokone do you have any questions? MR MOKONE I have no questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Monyane do you have any questions? MS MONYANE No questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga do you have any questions? MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert, he excused himself and he said that he wouldn't have any questions. Mr Dreyer, do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DREYER Mr Chairman, just before I commence, my witnesses indicated to me that she just wanted to enquire something. Before I start may I just get instructions? Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Prinsloo, just to put some of these questions in perspective, the impression was created by Mr Molefe that one should look at the closeness, proximity or the concentration of buildings housing state departments at that stage and you then answered that across the road there was the Department of Finance, their office and that one block further down there was the Liberty Life housing the Defence Force, is that correct? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER Now the Department of Finance, their offices, could you indicate to us is that at street level or is that higher up? MRS PRINSLOO It is higher up, a multi-storey building. MR DREYER Just for purposes of clarity, if you go and look at the corner diagonally across from Juicy Lucy there is the De Bruinpark Building? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER Is it correct that that is a building consisting of several levels of shops and also they have several storeys of offices above street level? MRS PRINSLOO Yes that is correct. MR DREYER So there's a high concentration of ordinary normal people? MRS PRINSLOO Yes. MR DREYER And then the building on the corner of Vermeulen and Andries where the City Library is to found, what kind of offices and businesses would one find there in that building, if any? MRS PRINSLOO The City Library is on the corner and immediately next to that further down in Vermeulen towards Paul Kruger Street is the State Library. MR DREYER Alright, let's take the building in which Juicy Lucy was. How many other shops, businesses were there at street level on that corner? MRS PRINSLOO There was a travel agency exactly on the corner, further down in Vermeulen Street there was a bank. MR DREYER If I'm not mistaken the offices of one of the newspaper groups are also found there? MRS PRINSLOO Yes, the Pretoria News offices are there. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dreyer, I don't think we need to go through every shop in the vicinity, we know that it's in the centre of town and that there are all different sorts of businesses and shops, government and private sector. MR DREYER Mr Chairman, I was merely limiting myself to the four corners of the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes we know. MR DREYER So the question I want to ask you is this, if you look at the concentration of civil premises as opposed to government premises in that area, what would you say, what would the distribution be? MRS PRINSLOO There were far more civil premises than State or Government premises. MR DREYER Lastly, Mr Molefe asked you how far away you were from this flower box. Could you perhaps just clarify that for us? MRS PRINSLOO I was walking down the path and it was very path where you had to walk in single file. I walked right in front of this group, I looked at the flowers, I suddenly saw blue light and I heard a very loud explosion, so that bomb exploded right next to me. MR DREYER And just one last question Mrs Prinsloo, the stoep area of this building, would that be used only by people coming from Juicy Lucy going down to the walkway where you were when the bomb exploded or was it also used by other people who were visiting some other premises in the building? MRS PRINSLOO It's also used by other people. MR DREYER So it's not only exclusively for the use of Juicy Lucy customers? MRS PRINSLOO No. MR DREYER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr De Jager do you have any questions? Mr Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you Chair. Mrs Prinsloo, I understood you to say that there were female SADF members who would sometimes visit this Juicy Lucy. How did you know that these people were working for the SADF? MRS PRINSLOO They were dressed in Defence Force uniforms. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mrs Prinsloo for your testimony. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV DE JAGER Mr Dreyer, you should perhaps just take down the names and addresses of the victims because at the end of the case we must make a recommendation regarding possible victims. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you submit names of victims, it would assist if we had names and addresses for forwarding to the Reparations Committee. MR DREYER Mr Chairman may I just at this point for the purposes of logistics point out that Mrs Prinsloo is the only one of the three victims that I represent that elected to give evidence, the other two victims would want to give evidence but at this stage do not feel themselves emotionally in a state to do so. That does not however in any way indicate that they do not feel the same about themselves as victims. If need be the necessary statement or whatever may be submitted at the end of the hearings on behalf of them but at this stage it's only Mrs Prinsloo that's going to give evidence and I do take note of what the Commission said in respect. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Dreyer, we'll now take the lunch adjournment and we'll start again at 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS