amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-04 NELSPRUIT 4 MONDLI NGXONGO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53158&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020105_nel_990204ne.htm This application for amnesty is connected with the application of Mr Romeo Mbambo, who has already appeared before this committee in respect of various incidents for which he applied for amnesty in the hearings that have become known as the Caprivi hearings. The hearings in respect of the Caprivi hearings were held at various places across the length and the breadth of our country. The first hearing was held in Richards Bay, wherein incidents relating to that particular region were dealt with. The second hearing was in Pietermaritzburg, which dealt with the incidents affecting that particular area. The third hearing was in Ermelo, and the matter of Mr Japie Thalede was heard in Ermelo, but it was only in respect of the applicant, Mr Mbambo. Will the legal representatives of the parties involved in this hearing kindly place their names on the record? Thank you, Madam Chairman, members of the committee, my name is Johan Oosthuizen, I am an attorney from Nelspruit, I'm a local attorney from Nelspruit, from the firm Du Toit Smits Attorneys, and I represent Mr Ngxongo in this matter. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Oosthuizen. MR WILLS Thank you, Chairperson, members of the committee, my name is John Wills, I'm a attorney from Pietermaritzburg, I represent the implicated party, Mr Romeo Mbambo, in these proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Is he an implicated party or is he a co-applicant? MR WILLS Well, he could be either. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms Thabete? MS THABETE I'm Ms Thabete for the TRC. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Oosthuizen, are we ready to commence hearing Mr Ngxongo's evidence? Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Ngxongo going to give evidence under oath? Indeed. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ngxongo, will you please rise to take an oath? MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO (sworn states) With permission of the members of the committee and Madam Chair, I will proceed. CHAIRPERSON You may do so, Mr Oosthuizen. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr Ngxongo... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Mr Oosthuizen, before you proceed, we do not want to make the same mistake that we did with Mr Sambo. Will you please bring it to our attention if you feel at any stage that Mr Ngxongo needs a break, we wouldn't like to be seen to be insensitive to his plight. We are aware that it is five o'clock now and he might actually feel fatigue as he proceeds with his evidence-in-chief. We would like, however, to conclude his evidence-in-chief, if possible. However, if it is not so possible, please bring it to our attention. Thank you, Madam Chair, with permission of the committee may I just get instructions from my client on that point? CHAIRPERSON You may do so. Thank you. Madam Chair, thank you, we can proceed, it's my instructions from my client that he is indeed capable and fit to proceed. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Oosthuizen, you may proceed then. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr Ngxongo, can you, just in brief, tell us about your background, where you were born, where you grew up, what was your childhood like? I was born at Umlazi Township, I grew up there, I started there or I attended school there, that's where I matriculated. Can you tell us, your father, what - did he play any political role in your life? Mr Ngxongo, sorry to interrupt you, do you think you could speak up a little bit, it's difficult for the people in the audience to hear you and if you speak softly, the interpreters won't hear you either, just use a louder voice if possible. Sorry to interrupt you. If I can just repeat my question, your father, can you, just in brief, tell the committee what kind of political figure, if any, did he play in your life? My father was a member of IFP at Umlazi and he was an active member. This is what led me to be a member of IFP at Umlazi as well. When time went on, I had numerous problems from my peers, even within the organisation, and in the community we didn't grow up liking one political organisation. There were other guys who were not involved in some disobedience acts like beating teachers, and there were others who were not like that, and we used to call other youth that they were "amatlabane"(?), meaning they were belonging to an ANC. We never liked that group. Okay, just to interrupt, can you just inform us, did you at any stage accompany your father to any relays (rallies(?)) of a political figure? Yes, I used to accompany my father, even in IFP rallies. I had a friend who was a policeman, his name was Musandi Mali, he was a little bit older than me, but he used to come to my house, and other people used to be amazed that why he used to like me so much, and sometimes I will drive his car and other boys will have a problem about that, they wanted to know why I was associating myself with him. I think this is what led them calling me an informer, an askari or informer. Tell the committee, were you also a member of the IFP? As I've mentioned before that I ended up being an IFP member, since my father was. When was that? As from 1983, but I only had a card in 1987. Your best friend at school, you mentioned the name of Msandile Sabilo, tell us about him? Msandile Sabilo was a son of a prominent member of IFP, and he was also working as an MP member in Kwazulu, and most of the time people will see me relaxing at Sabilo's house and his boys. And your IFP card, are you still in possession of it? I lost my card over the weekend, but it was going to be expired anyway on Tuesday and I have to apply for a new one. Can you tell us about your relationship with one Sipiwe Mbuyane? Sipiwe Mbuyane was a young guy who was very active, or who was an active member of IFP in Durban South region. Durban South region includes Umlazi, Kwamashu, Gomakutem, Lamontville. We were friends. I think we started being friends towards the end of 1988, beginning of 1989. He also experienced problems from ANC youth. He survived too many problems or attacks from the youth. Was he also a strong and active member of the IFP? Yes, he was a member of the IFP and also a member of a hit squad, he was a leader of the hit squad in Kwazulu in South Region of Kwazulu-Natal. So one of your - you are saying one of your best friends was a leader of the IFP hit squad, is that right? Okay. What was the purpose of the hit squad, what were their duties? Their main duties were to attack or to try and dismantle activities which was launched by ANC, because ANC was anti IFP. And did you supported these acts? I supported this, because I was a member of IFP and I have been harassed by ANC, therefore I would do whatever it took to do the same to them, the ANC. And this Sipiwe Mbuyane became a very close friend of yours and who convinced you, at a later stage of your life, to also become a member of the IFP hit squad? Yes, he's the one. After you joined the IFP hit squad with Mbuyane Sipiwe as one of your best friends, did he introduce you to any other members of the IFP? That's correct, he introduced me to some members of IFP, especially the leaders of IFP. Can you give a few names of the members that you were introduced to? This Mrs Mbuyazi, except for the fact that she was a member of the Central Committee, did she play any other prominent role as a political figure? She was also a leader of a Women's Brigade of IFP. At what stage, if you can remember, of the year were you introduced to Mrs Mbuyazi? If I'm not mistaken, I think it was the beginning of 1992. That's correct. From there on, can you please tell the committee exactly what happened and, in a nutshell... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Mr Oosthuizen, did you say at the end of 1992, or '93? Madam Chair, it was 1993. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Can you, Mr Ngxongo, please tell the committee about the instructions or the information that you had in connection with the killing of Mr Thalede? May I ask, do you want to know why he was going to be killed, or do you want to know something else? Okay, let's first start, the information that you got from anyone in connection with Mr Thalede, can you tell us about anything that you knew about him? Sipiwe told me about Mr Thalede, and he said he was supposed to come to the Eastern Transvaal and eliminate Mr Thalede, because he was harassing IFP. Were you told in what way he was harassing IFP members? Mr Thalede was smuggling ammunitions from Mozambique, and these arms were used to kill IFP members, especially in Ermelo. He was staying here in Nelspruit, but he was working for the IFP in Ermelo. Were you informed about the type of weapons that was smuggled from Mozambique to the Republic? Yes. Can you tell the committee please? AK47, limpet mines, hand grenades, ammunitions. Can you further tell the committee, who was the co-ordinator of IFP in the Eastern Transvaal? It was Mr Makwena from Bushbuck Ridge, he was the one who was the co-ordinator between the Ermelo branch and Eastern Transvaal. Is his name familiar to you? Willie Makwena. Have you ever met Mr Willie Makwena before the killing of Mr Thalede, have you ever met him in person? I've never met him at that time, but we used to talk over the telephone. At what stage did Mr Sipiwe Mbuyane died? Sipiwe Mbuyane died in May 1993, on the 1st of May. And can you, in a nutshell, just inform the committee how he died and the circumstances surrounding his death, being your best friend? On that night, I didn't have a car, I was accompanied with a friend of mine, we went to Durban Westville University's festival, there was a festival there. I telephoned a friend of mine, I telephoned Sipiwe Mbuyane to come and pick me up. When he arrived there at the festival, there were too many people, it was at night, it was dark, so I couldn't see him. I thought he was going to look for me, look around for me. From what I heard is that he went outside, looked for me and he couldn't see me, and he left because where he had parked his car, it was an unlawful parking area, so he went back to try and look for another parking. That's when he was shot. Do you know if his death was also associated with a political objective? This is what I believe, because ANC members used to attack us, and during those days there were too many attacks coming from ANC to us, and he died those days. Being your best friend, are you aware exactly how he was killed, was it a shot from a distance or was it a close shot? When he was shot, he wasn't alone, he was with two other guys who were sitting in a blue Caravelle VW, and a girl who was sitting at the passenger's seat, and the person who told me that after he looked for me, when he came back, he left the keys with one guy who was sitting inside the kombi and then he took the key from this guy and got inside the car. As he was about to start the car, when he was busy putting the key in the ignition, and then the guy who actually shot him came closer and shot him next to the ear. CHAIRPERSON Mr Oosthuizen... (intervention). Okay. CHAIRPERSON Mr Oosthuizen, the circumstances surrounding Mr Mbuyane's death are not within his personal knowledge... (intervention). As the committee pleases, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...but even so, I think these are matters which are not really relevant... (intervention). I will proceed. CHAIRPERSON ...for the matter at hand. My intention, Madam Chair, was just to sketch a brief background, but I will proceed. After the death of your friend, Sipiwe Mbuyane, you received another phone call from Willie Makwena, is that correct? That's correct. What was the phone call about? He called, he wanted to know as to what was going on, because Sipiwe was supposed to go and complete his mission for killing - to and kill Mr Thalede, because even the people from Ermelo were complaining that Mr Thalede was supposed to have been eliminated, but now he is still around, people can still see him in Ermelo and Bushbuck Ridge, therefore he wanted to know what was going on. And after the phone call, what did you do? I didn't know the person who gave Sipiwe instruction. CHAIRPERSON Was that properly translated, you didn't know the person who had given Sipiwe instructions, is that what you said? I think there was a mistake by the translator? Yes, there was a mistake, I did know the person who gave Sipiwe the instruction to kill Mr Thalede. CHAIRPERSON Who was he or she? And after the phone call, did you spoke to... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Mr Oosthuizen, I just asked Mr Ngxongo to tell us who that person was who had Mbuyane instructions to kill... (intervention). Sorry, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON He hasn't responded to that question. Not yet. Mrs Mbuyazi from Skwaweni, the one whom I've already mentioned that she was a leader of IFP. CHAIRPERSON Thank you for interposing. I received this phone call on Thursday after work. I decided to go personally to see Mrs Mbuyazi, I just had to go there because it was important. And after that? I went to Skaweni, first I went to see Mbusa Mbambo, I told him about the phone call. We then both decided to go and see Mrs Mbuyazi personally. Can you tell the committee, Mr Romeo Mbambo, where did he fit in. You were a member of the hit squad, was he also a member? Romeo Mbambo, together with Israel Shlongwano Delimkese, they were operating on the north coast, we were on the south coast region, and they were on the north coast region. Right. Was he also a member of the IFP hit squad? Yes, that's correct. That's correct. Can you tell us about the visit that you paid to Mrs Mbuyazi? We told Mrs Mbuyazi and then she decided that I wasn't going to go back to Durban, and we were supposed to go and take over Sipiwe - which was - the thing that was supposed to be Sipiwe's mission of killing Mr Thalede. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose again, Mr Oosthuizen? Did you on your own decide that you wouldn't go back to Durban, but would proceed to attend to the Thalede issue? That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Where is that evidence, Mr Oosthuizen? Are you not leading him? We don't have the evidence that there was any instructions from Mr - and it's Mrs Mbuyazi - to him, that's why I was asking him whether he himself decided to go to Bushbuck Ridge on that Thalede issue. We don't have any evidence that he was ever given any instructions by Mrs Mbuyazi. You are asking a leading question. Madam Chair, if I might just to respond? According, or how I understood it is that the applicant himself and Mr Mbambo went to Mrs Mbuyazi and she herself instructed them to complete the mission that was not completed at that stage. CHAIRPERSON That's not what I have and that's not what I heard. I think clear that up. After we've told Mrs Mbuyazi about the report which we've got from Mr Makwena, she said we were supposed to go to Bushbuck Ridge on Friday so that we are there on Saturday. And at what day of the week did you got this instructions from Mrs Mbuyazi? Do you want to know the time... (intervention). No... (intervention). ...or the day? ...I just want to know the day. You said you got instructions to leave for Mpumalanga the Friday, on what day, was it the previous day, was it two days before you left, when was your instructions from Mrs Mbuyazi to leave for Nelspruit? The same Friday, immediately after we've reported this matter to her, she told us to leave on that very same Friday. Thank you. Are you aware of any previous unsuccessful trips that was undertook by Mr Romeo Mbambo and other hit squad members? That's correct. They came here for the first time, it was the three of them, and then the second time they were unsuccessful, and then when they were supposed to go for the third time, that's when Sipiwe was killed. Okay. You testified that you arrived in Nelspruit the Saturday, is that correct? That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Can I clear something which is not... (intervention). No, certainly, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON I would like you to clarify one thing for me. We were told to come to Nelspruit to meet Mr Makwena in Ganyamazane Township. CHAIRPERSON So you were not instructed to go to Bushbuck Ridge? No. CHAIRPERSON Why did you say so before? That was a mistake. And you arrived here the Saturday morning? That's correct. Where did you met up with Mr Willie Makwena? In Ganyamaza..., just in front of the police station in Ganyamazane Township. Can you tell the committee who made these arrangements that Mr Willie Makwena will meet you before or in front of the police station in Ganyamazane? After we've spoken with Mrs Mbuyazi, she went inside the house and she made a telephone call, I think she was calling Mr Makwena, and then when she came back, she told us we must go, we will meet Mr Makwena and what car he'll be driving and the police where to meet Mr Makwena. From the time that you met Mr Willie Makwena at the police station, what happened then, tell us from there? He arrived and he was driving similar car to the one we were driving. We greeted each other and he said he was happy since he's known me from the telephone, over the phone, and then he said we must follow him and he was going to provide us with accommodation, so that we rest, since we were driving the whole night. Just before you continue, can you tell us the numberplates of your vehicle, was that the original numberplates or was it false? After I've passed Macheladorp, I parked the car aside, at the side of the road, and I put a false registration and I put computer numbers registration on the car. You testified that you drove with Mr Willie Makwena to his house. What happened there? We were following him, he was also driving his own car, we were following him. We went to his place. His house is at his business area, where you can find his hotels and his house on the same premises. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose, Mr Oosthuizen, for purposes of the record? Excuse me, Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON May I interpose... (intervention). Certainly. CHAIRPERSON ...and just clear a few things before he proceeds? Certainly. CHAIRPERSON Is it your evidence that you got to Nelspruit and you had arranged to meet Mr Makwena just outside the police station at Ganyamazane, and that's where you first met him, outside the police station on Saturday morning? You then proceeded from that place outside the police station to his hotel, is that how I understand your evidence? I didn't make those arrangements. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's where you met him? Yes, you first went to Ganyamazane Police Station and that's where you met and he was in his kombi. You then drove in both kombis to his other place or hotel somewhere? Okay. Can you tell us where this hotel is situated? In Bushbuck Ridge. Were you introduced to anyone else at the hotel? A guy came and was introduced to us as Willie's brother. Is his name familiar to you? David Makwena. And what did David do that evening, what was his duty? Late in the evening, he was told by Mr Willie that he must go and check if Mr Thalede was still in his business earlier, or in his business premises. Now, this business premises, with reference to the hotel where you spent the evening, how far is it situated from the hotel? From the hotel where we were, it's like from here and where the policemen are sitting. There's a fence in between and then on the other side of the fence, those are Thalede's businesses, in other words this side is Makwena's businesses and the other side of the fence. CHAIRPERSON Can you approximate that in terms of metres or paces, Mr Oosthuizen? Excuse me, Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON Can you approximate that in terms of metres or paces, can you say about... (intervention). Madam Chair, I would say it's about... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON ...six, seven paces? Ja, maybe - ja, six to ten, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And the name of the business of Mr Thalede, is that familiar to you? He had two businesses, one was Chicken Licken and the other one was a supermarket. So Mr Makwena's hotel and Mr Thalede's business were situated directly next to each other, and they were basically neighbours, is that right? That's correct. And you testified that David had to go and look and see if Mr Thalede is at his business. What was David's reaction on that? He didn't respond, he just went and did as he was told. And what did he told you when he came back? He said Mr Thalede wasn't there, it looked like he was in Jo'burg. And what did you do after you received this news? We decided to sleep there and that we were going to go to Durban the next morning. In the hotel it was Mbusa Mbambo, myself, he left us there because he's married and he went and sleep in the house because the house and the hotel, it's in one premises. What happened the next morning? We woke up late in the morning. Since we were not prepared for this trip, we didn't even have clothes to change, we decided to go to Durban, but first we took a bath, and Mr Makwena came to us and he said that we should first come to Nelspruit so that we have breakfast before we leave for Durban. You can proceed, what happened then? We got inside his kombi. Me and Mbambo, we sat at the back, because we didn't want people to see us in this area. As we were going to Nelspruit, we met a certain car, which was a Honda Prelude and it was maroon in colour, and Mr Makwena said to us that was Mr Thalede. We waited for a while and then we made a U turn, we followed him. And then? We followed his car at a distance, but we didn't want him to be suspicious that this car was following him. We followed him until he entered his business premises and Makwena as well did the same, entered his own business premises. And what happened then? We went back to the very same room which we had put up. We waited so that it was dark and so that we can carry on on what we came there for. And then? Late in the evening, we looked for guns, or we demanded guns from Mr Makwena. David, Mr Makwena's brother, left and came back with an AK47, and he gave that AK47 to Mbusa Mbambo. Romeo took the AK and checked it if it was in a good condition, but the gun had mud, it looked like it wasn't going to work properly and it was too stuck, stiff, and then he said he didn't think that it was going to work, that very same gun. Which guns were you planning to use then? We decided that we were going to use the same guns which we were given as hit squad, the ones which belonged to the police or who were given to us by the police. Where and what... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Were you a policeman? No. CHAIRPERSON Where did you obtain the firearm that you used, that you had with you on that day? These guns were brought from Skaweni and some of them from Ulundi, they were hit squad guns. CHAIRPERSON And who had given you that particular gun? I took it among other guns which were also used for such operations. Mbambo had his own gun, I only took one from those guns. CHAIRPERSON Where did you take it from? Where Mbambo was staying. CHAIRPERSON Did you take it at anyone's instruction? There was no need for me to be instructed by anyone to take a gun, because I was already being sent on an operation, therefore I took one gun from those guns. CHAIRPERSON Had you used that gun previously in any of the operations? No. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr Oosthuizen. Thank you, Madam Chair. What type of gun did you had and what type of gun did Mr Romeo Mbambo had? He had a 9mm Z88, I had a 9mm Baretta(?). I only know that he knew him, this is what he told me as well. Were you aware of any bodyguards or protection that Mr Thalede had? I was told that he had one bodyguard, who usually will arm himself with a shotgun. If you can repeat that please? Were you aware if Mr Thalede himself was armed? Yes, Willie told me so when we were at the hotel. Were you told what kind of weapon he had in his possession? They said he usually carries a revolver, but they were not sure whether it was 38 or 357 magnum, but it was a revolver. After you got this information, what did you do? I decided to put a bulletproof vest. And tell us from there what happened? And what was his reply to that? Mbambo said yes, he could remember, and he said he's got a short hair, and Mr Makwena explained to him that no, he doesn't have a short hair anymore, he's now greyish. And after that you left for Chicken Licken, is that right? That's right. Tell us what happened from there? We decided that we were not going to use the front gate when we were going to Mr Thalede's house, we decided that we were going to use the - or we were going to use the road which is behind the businesses, so that we enter Mr Thalede's house from behind. Was there a gate at the back? We jumped the fence. You may proceed. We went and we entered to the Chicken Licken. Our aim was to see if Mr Thalede was there, even though we pretended to be buying something from the Chicken Licken, and we discovered that Mr Thalede wasn't there. When we left... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON If I may explain there? We left from the gate, through the gate Mr Makwena's house or place, and then we entered the gate of Mr Thalede's businesses. We decided to use the path which is behind the businesses. We jumped the fence and then we entered the businesses. His house is not in the business area, it's just his businesses. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the front gate. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Because I heard Mr Thalede and not Makwena, so there was a problem with the translation then. I believe so, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Or maybe you made a mistake, we can't be blaming the translators all the time. (Indistinct), I can't hear you, because you are speaking very low and I can't pick up. I can understand what you are saying, because I speak Zulu myself impeccably, but I just cannot follow because your voice is so low, so I can't pick up whether this is a mistake of the translators or its yours. However, we will now, I think proceed to correct that, because I think we all had that you had used the front door, that's what we have, the front door of Thalede's house, which just didn't make sense as soon as you started speaking about getting to the businesses of Mr Thalede. I think let the record show that the witness intended to say they did not intend to use the front gate of Mr Makwena's house. Indeed, Madam Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON I think it's the front gate of Mr Makwena's premises. You may proceed, Mr Ngxongo. When we left the Chicken Licken, after we've realised that Mr Thalede is not in the Chicken Licken and there were stairs and then we met a certain guy whom we thought he was also working there, and Mr Mbambo asked this guy as to where was Mr Thalede, and then the guy turned and pointed at him, he was in his supermarket, he was standing next to the till in his supermarket. And after Mr Thalede was pointed out in his supermarket, what did you do? We left this guy and we decided to go inside the supermarket. I was wearing a black hat to hide my hair, Mbambo had a hat, a black cap. We didn't want people to see our hair, so that people will have difficulty in identifying us as to whether we were coloureds or blacks. We started speaking English there. We were following each other. We greeted four people who we met next to a till, we passed them. As you know, a supermarket has shelves, we went in one passage and then we came on another passage, that's when Mbambo told me that when we arrived there, if he shoots Mr Thalede, I must go at the door and watch if there won't be any other person to disturb us or to try and shoot us back. How would you describe the position between yourself and Mr Mbambo, who was more senior in this IFP hit squad movement? After Sipiwe Mbuyane died, he was the senior, and after Sipiwe Mbuyane died, Romeo took over, he was my senior. So he gave you instructions to guard the door and you followed that order? Yes. Just tell the committee, the people that were present inside the supermarket, who was that? Were there any customers, for example? It was towards the closing time, there were not too many people there, there was Mr Thalede and another person, whom I trust maybe it was his brother and two other females, and one of the females was busy on the till, the other one was just standing there chatting. Okay, and what happened then, after you are now at the door, busy guarding the door, what happened then? Mbambo started shooting Mr Thalede, as I was walking towards the door, and at this time Mbambo was ready. And then? He was shot by Mbambo. At that time, I was waiting there and looking towards the door, watching for anyone who will come and disturb us, so that I defend or I kill anything that will come on our way. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you say you also had a gun in your hand? Did you not say also that you had a gun in your hand, because that was not translated? I was waiting there with a gun and pointing at the door with that gun. CHAIRPERSON I was just trying to correct your evidence, because that had been omitted by the translators. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Can you inform the committee how many shots, if you can recall, were fired by Mr Mbambo? I wouldn't be able to say so, but it was quite a number. But if I understand you correctly, you cannot definitely say and state in which part of his body was he shot? I won't be able to say so, but I saw him, because one can tell when a gun is pointing down and when the gun is pointing at somebody's body, but as I heard the fire shots, I cannot say that that shot shot him at his body, but I saw him pointing the gun at his body. And after the shots were fired, what happened then? After he finished shooting him, he came running and then we came out and we ran away, and then we went back and jumped the same fence which we've jumped as we were coming here, and then when we arrived there - there's just one thing I would like to highlight, something that I've forgotten, when we came to Thalede's place, we decided that I should park the Caravelle far, so that when we leave the area there of the scene, we don't jump immediately inside that kombi, and then when we ran away, Mr Makwena's Nissan was parked there, 4 x 4, and then we jumped in and David got inside, drove us to, and took us to the car where we've hidden the kombi, and then we left. I just want to take you back to the supermarket scene, did the bodyguard of Mr Thalede fired any shots after Mr Mbambo fired his shots? No, he didn't. Except for the shots fired by Mr Mbambo, were there any other shots fired, that you are aware of? When Mbambo was firing this gun, it was at night, I was at the door, I thought that there were other gunshots, but then it wasn't, I think it was just the echo, because I didn't see anyone shooting there, it was just Mbambo. Did you yourself fired any shots in the supermarket that evening? No, I didn't. Did you fired any shots outside of the supermarket that evening? No, I didn't. You further testified that you got into a white Nissan 4 x 4 and eventually into your VW Caravelle kombi and you left for Natal, is that right? That's correct. What happened after that, when you arrived -or where did you go to when you first entered Natal? And after you made this phone call, what happened? They confirmed the death of Mr Thalede and we went off to Mrs Mbuyazi and informed her that we did carried out the operation. When you... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that - sorry, may I interpose, Mr Oosthuizen... (intervention). Certainly, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...are you saying that when you got back you went to the police station, you phoned Nelspruit to confirm Mr Thalede's death and it was confirmed, and then it was only then that you went to Mrs Mbuyazi, after you had ascertained and confirmed Mr Thalede's death? That's correct. CHAIRPERSON It is not your evidence that your first port of call from Nelspruit was Mrs Mbuyazi? INTERPRETER Excuse me, I didn't get that? CHAIRPERSON It is not your evidence that your first port of call after Nelspruit was Mrs Mbuyazi? Madam Chair, if I might just come in here? I've asked the applicant if his first stop was indeed at Mrs Mbuyazi and he said, no, his first stop was at the police station... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes. ...so he actually corrected me. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So I'm just trying to get his evidence, that his first port of call was not Mrs Mbuyazi, but the police station... (intervention). Indeed so, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...where Mr Mbambo worked. Indeed so, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON And it was at that police station where a confirmation was made with Nelspruit about Mr Thalede's death. That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that subsequent to that confirmation, they then drove to Mrs Mbuyazi to give a report, which was a firm report, because they had already confirmed Thalede's death even before going to Mrs Mbuyazi. That's quite correct, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON I wanted to understand that aspect of evidence correctly. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. She was very pleased, she shaked hands with us and hugged us, and said that first thing in the morning she will call Ulundi to report the incident. Why would she report to Ulundi, what is so important at Ulundi? Because that's where the leadership of the ANC were, or they were predominantly there in Ulundi. MR LAX Sorry, you said ANC, you mean IFP? INTERPRETER Yes, of course. And how long after this incident were you... (intervention). MR LAX Speaker's mike. Mr Oosthuizen, I have been begged by our logistics officers that we must kindly take a short adjournment at six o'clock... (intervention). Certainly, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...to give, in particular the translators just an opportunity to have some fresh air. Certainly. I haven't got objection. CHAIRPERSON Can we then take that very short adjournment for about five minutes? Definitely, I haven't got any objection. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO (still under oath) (cont) Mr Ngxongo, you testified that you gave the instructions or the confirmation that Mr Thalede was killed to Mrs Mbuyazi, she was extremely happy, and tell us what happened after that, how long after this were you arrested by the South African Police? After giving the full report to Mrs Mbuyazi, I was supposed to continue to Durban and Mr Mbambo was supposed to remain behind, because that's where he was stationed, and on that first year, it ended and nothing happened until I was arrested in January 1994. Can you tell us, were you aware of any other persons, except for Mr Thalede that was killed or injured because of those acts committed by yourself and Mr Mbambo and members of the hit squad, any other one injured? I only heard about that after I was charged for murder, two attempted murders, but at the time of the incident, I didn't see anyone who was shot at or injured. And you were sentenced on this specific case on the 15th of January '97, is that correct? That's correct. During your criminal trial, what was your plea, did you plead guilty or not guilty on the said charges? I pleaded guilty. I pleaded guilty to all the charges. And you were sentenced to 12 years imprisonment, is that right? That's correct. Mr Ngxongo, can you please tell us, your application form for the amnesty application, who completed that? I did complete it, I personally completed it. Do you want to reply on the way that you completed it, is it truthful completed or is there any false information contained in it? There are some parts of which is not true. Madam Chair, may I refer the applicant to his application form, specifically page No 2, paragraph 9.4? CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's paginated No 3. As the committee pleases. Can you have a look at paragraph 9.4, Mr Ngxongo? It is asked there that you must give a brief description of the natures and particulars and you've stated something completely different than what you are telling the committee today, is that correct? That's correct. Now, can you give an explanation why your evidence today and the way that you've completed the application form actually contradicts each other and is very far apart from each other? CHAIRPERSON I didn't understand you well. When you said Didlike, whom are you referring to? He's a lawyer, or he's a legal representative or a lawyer for the IFP, he's the one who came with TRC forms and he said those who want to complete them, they can complete them, but they should not implicate IFP members, senior members, but some of us who didn't go to school, didn't understand what he said, so they ended up including the names of senior members. This De Klerk came back, I think when they looked at the application and realised that they did implicate some people whom we said they should not implicate, they returned the application form and said to us we should change the application form and write other things and some application forms were changed. CHAIRPERSON Was your application form completed with the assistance of Mr De Klerk? No, it wasn't, mine was already gone. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr De Klerk involved at all in fetching your application from you whilst you were in prison in order to despatch it to the offices of the TRC? I gave my application form to the person who was responsible for submitting the application. That person was working at the Westville Prison, I didn't give it to De Klerk. CHAIRPERSON Was that person attached to the TRC? He was just a police officer in Westville Prison. CHAIRPERSON When you say some leaders came and pleaded with you not to implicate IFP leaders, can you mention the leaders who came and requested you not to do so? CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I think the names didn't come out appropriately, I only picked up Mr De Klerk and De Klerk I know is indeed a lawyer, not a leader of the IFP. Thank you, Mr Oosthuizen, you may proceed. Thank you, Madam Chair. Sir, can you tell us at what stage - or before we come to that, why did you decide to come to the commission today and tell the truth? It's because the person with whom I was arrested, or the person with whom I was operating, did came before the commission to reveal the truth. In the beginning, I wasn't willing to expose the IFP because I was loyal to it, but I realised that the IFP was no longer visiting me or sending me some lawyers to represent me, so I realised maybe I should take this opportunity to come before the commission to tell the truth. And when did you made this decision to tell the truth? After they stopped visiting me and leaving me in the dark, and after I see all my colleagues coming before the commission to tell the truth, and that changed my mind, that it's better for me to go out and tell the truth. CHAIRPERSON When did they stop visiting you, what year was it? They stopped last year, early last year. And did you receive any financial benefit to commit this act? I didn't get even a single cent. Do you know if Mr Romeo Mbambo received any financial benefit? What I heard from him is that he didn't get anything and I never witnessed him getting anything. Thank you. Sir, further on, why did you comply with these instructions from Mrs Mbuyazi? You mean the first time? Firstly, I also wanted to do it myself, because I hated the ANC. It was even evident that they could win the elections and I thought if it does win the elections, we will enter a period of starvation. Secondly, I was a member of the hit squads and if you were given instructions, you're supposed to perform your duties. What would have happened to you, if anything, what would have happened to you, if anything, if you did not comply with these instructions from Mrs Mbuyazi? I'll personally, as a member of the squad, I couldn't refuse, because it was my work, if I was given work to do as a hit squad, I'm supposed to do the work. CHAIRPERSON The question is what could have happened to you had you not obeyed the instructions from the hierarchy? If I were to refuse, if I were to refuse after giving instructions, they wouldn't trust me anymore. If they don't trust me among my colleagues in the leadership, they might have killed me, because I will be a danger to them. And you testified that at that stage, just before, or during the time when you received the instructions from Mrs Mbuyazi, you said that you hated the ANC. Why is that? Because the ANC people have already troubled me a lot, they tried to assassinate me and while I was still schooling, they called me an impimpi, that means an informer. Since I associated myself with my friends who were police, they started hating me, thinking that I was an informer, and they were thinking that some of the things that were done towards the ANC members by these police, I knew them, therefore they started attacking me with AK47, limpet mines, and I was shot while I was walking with my friend in 1989, and during the shooting two of my friends died and from there I started hating them. And would you say that this act that you actually committed, together with other members of the IFP hit squad, would you describe that as an act associated with a political objective? Yes, I would say yes, firstly because if they attack you and called "igovo" (?), which was the name denoting that you are a member of IFP, a derogative name. And would I be correct if I say that you acted on instructions from an IFP central committee leader? That's correct, there were instructions that we should, I mean harass them or trouble them. And at that stage when this whole incident happened, would you say the IFP was engaged in a political struggle against the ANC at that stage of time? What time are you referring to? The time when - the time of the killing of Mr Thalede. What was happening - are you asking what was happening at that time? No, my question is, would you say, would you agree if I state that at the stage when Mr Thalede was killed, the IFP was engaged in a political struggle against the ANC? Yes, it was like that, there was great fighting, especially in Kwazulu-Natal. Yes, they came to visit me in Ermelo while serving my sentence, because I started serving my sentence around this area and I asked them to transfer me to a place, a prison near home, and they took me to Ermelo, that's where the Thalede family came to see me and I did ask apology from them. You did ask forgiveness and what were their reaction? Yes, I did ask them to forgive me, and they were happy that I came down to ask for forgiveness, and we forgived each other, and it showed that they did accepted my apology. What you've just testified before the commission is a discussion that took place privately between yourself and the family of Mr Thalede. If, like today, publicly, and it is indeed the case, you've got the opportunity, what would you say in the public today to the family of Mr Thalede? Firstly, I know it's not easy for someone to say, "I'll forgive you", because the pain that I caused them to suffer, I know that it's not only the Thalede family that suffered, I know they help the whole community of the Bushbuck Ridge, and even to the people of Bushbuck Ridge, some of them are not able to get help from Mr Thalede, therefore I will ask them to forgive me too for whatever I did and they should forget what happened. I know they will not forget Mr Thalede, because they loved him, but I would like them to forgive me and forget. And if your application is successful, will you or will you not again be connected with acts like these? I wouldn't, even in my dreams, because I believe that even the family of Thalede's family, Thalede's wife had fears that "If you serve your sentence and you get out and the people who ask you, instructed you to kill my husband, come to you and say, `Now go and kill the family', will you do it?", and I said to her, "No, I am sorry for what I did and I wouldn't do it again". Just to finalise the matter, is it so that Mr Mbambo was sentenced on this same case before you? That's correct. Do you know when he was sentenced? It was 1996, but I can't remember the month. You testified that you never ever fired a shot at Mr Thalede or anyone else, why then did you pleaded guilty at your criminal case in Graskop? May you repeat the question please? CHAIRPERSON Excuse me, Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON I do not understand your question. My question, Madam Chair, is the applicant testified that he himself never fired any shot... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Yes. ...at the supermarket or Chicken Licken, towards Mr Thalede or any of the other members. CHAIRPERSON I think probably about something else we can put that question, but insofar as Mr Thalede is concerned, there is no need for you to put that question, the applicant has already associated himself with the action of Mr Mbambo. Indeed so, Madam Chair, my question to the applicant is, I just want to establish if he did not fired any shots, why did he plead guilty on a charge of murder then, at this criminal trial? CHAIRPERSON You know, it is your case, you are conducting your client's application, but I don't think we need that evidence, that's already... (intervention). As the committee pleases, Madam Chair, I'll leave it then. CHAIRPERSON You'll be surprised at the response you might get from your applicant, then you keep on asking unnecessary evidence that has already been established, particularly if it's to your client's favour. Ja. Madam Chair, I'm aware of that and I am aware of the answer that the applicant will give, but I'm going to leave it there. CHAIRPERSON You may, however, proceed to ask a question about the two attempted murders that he pleaded guilty to, that's what I would like to hear him on. Thank you, Madam Chair. Can you maybe give an explanation to that? You testified that you never fired a shot, why did you plead guilty on the attempted murder charges? CHAIRPERSON It is not Thalese. Thalede, Mr Interpreter. Sorry, I know you're getting tired. INTERPRETER I'm sorry, I'm sorry about that, (indistinct) Thalese. May I proceed, Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON You may do so, Mr Oosthuizen, we are sorry for that interruption. Sir, in connection with this whole hearing today, is there anything else that you want to address the committee on, or have we basically covered everything? I think I've said what I was supposed to say. It will depend on how the committee see facts. That's correct. Finally, can you just give an explanation to the committee, why didn't you, in your initial application form, mentioned the application for the two attempted murders? CHAIRPERSON He did (indistinct). Madam Chair, I was just on my way to look. I see, Madam Chair, paragraph 9A.1, it's on page 3. CHAIRPERSON I think the problem with some of these applicants is that we understand they are not literate. We, therefore, don't... (intervention). As the committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON ...take a robust view on how they complete their applications. As the committee pleases, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Particularly because we are aware that they are not afforded any Legal Aid in completing the application forms. I will accept that. CHAIRPERSON I therefore will accept that he had intended to include these two attempted murder charges, because when one has recourse to paragraph 12(c), which is on page 7, he makes a specific reference to... (intervention). I see, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...the offences for which he has been convicted and charged. I see that. CHAIRPERSON So we take it that... (intervention). Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...it was his intention to include them. Thank you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON We note, however, that at that stage he had not yet been convicted, because he has just testified that he was convicted later in January 1997, but the fact that they are really mentioned there... (intervention). Indeed so, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...it is an indication that it was his intention to apply for those offences for which he was already standing trial. Indeed so, Madam Chair. May I just get final instructions from my client? CHAIRPERSON You may do so. Mr Ngxongo, just to finalise then, is there anything that you wish to address the committee on, specifically with reference to the way that you've completed your application? I would like to put it before the committee that on those parts where I did give false information, I would like to ask for forgiveness and apology for doing that, and I would like to promise that what I've said now does clarify the truth and covers everything that I didn't put in my application. Thank you, Madam Chair, I haven't got any further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, we now give you an opportunity to put any questions to Mr Ngxongo, if you have any. CHAIRPERSON Why not, Mr Wills, we both did not know what the applicant was going to say. I am sure, on the basis of what has been said and on the basis of your previous instructions, you should be able to put questions, if any, to Mr Ngxongo. Yes. What my position is, Chairperson, is that I, in preparation for this case, expected this witness to be hostile to my client's version as a result of what was completed on the application form. I now find that he's very supportive of my client's version, and in regard to the actual incident itself, I've got one or two questions that I need to clear up, which I would be in a position to put to him immediately, but what I feel would be important for me to exercise my client's mandate properly, is to secure further corroborative evidence from this witness, which will support this particular client's case, and the other two persons whom I represent in these hit squad hearings in relation to the general operations and instructions of hit squads, and in that regard I just need to look at certain things, and I would also like to take some advice on that. In particular, I'm concerned about instructions, for example you'll be aware, having sat in the other issues, the issues of the indiscriminate killings, what the attitude was, and more general information about how these hit squads operated, because this witness is operating in a different area in relation to - and under different circumstances, so I would perceive that the evidence that he might have in that regard would be seen by the committee who considers the application in the other matter that I'm involved with, as being quite supportive and quite independent, as opposed to the evidence of the three who've basically been together all along, and that's basically my position, but I'm sure, in that regard, it's a very short aspect. I don't know if you're intending to finish, I don't know, if we could finish tonight, but I don't see that we can, I believe that you were expecting to finish at 7:00, but there's still argument to come and there's also certain questions from my learned friend, Ms Thabete, so I don't know if we would, in any event, finish this evening. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Chairperson, if I could have, I know that I'm not going to be very long and I mean I've got a simple position, if we are going to finish tonight, well then I can understand the reason for me to go ahead right now, and in that event I would at least request a short adjournment in order to consult with my client before I proceed. If, on the other hand, we are not going to finish today, then I would prefer to take a bit more time over the matter and consider, as you know, the voluminous documents that I have in relation to these hearings. But, in any event, what I can guarantee you, Ms Chairperson, is that when we do reconvene, I will be no longer than half an hour. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I don't think you really are faced with voluminous documents in this matter. You and I are both very familiar with these hearings, and this incident is an incident that involves documents which are not more than 30 pages, the testimony of Mr Mbambo that was given in Ermelo, which I'm sure you already are privy to and you have had an opportunity of reading, notwithstanding the fact that the application of Mr Ngxongo, as it stood then, before his viva voce evidence today, would have been different from the version given by Mr Mbambo in Ermelo. So I would be surprised if you still have to go through the volumes of documents you are alleging that you have to go through. I'm not suggesting, Ms Chairperson, that I have to go through volumes of documents. What I'm suggesting is that there is a lot of evidence in these cases, and for me to just go off the cuff, it might end up in me missing an opportunity where I can get certain corroborative evidence, but if - I'm quite happy, if you could give me a short time then, just to consult with Mbambo and then to take my cross-examination further. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, we really don't want to be perceived to be obstructive to how you want to discharge your mandate, we indeed would want every lawyer to do just what you want to do, discharge his or her mandate to the best of his or her abilities, but that does not mean that we should also not take cognisance of the short lifespan that we have in this committee. So we will grant you your indulgence. This matter will then stand adjourned until tomorrow morning, and hope that you will be responsible, as you've been always, and not take too much of our time that will end up making us unable to finalise and dispose of this matter before 12 o'clock tomorrow... (intervention). I'm much obliged, thank you, Ms Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I'd have no objection to that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Wills. Ms Thabete, you may proceed to put questions to Mr Ngxongo. Thank you, Madam Chair, I only have two questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Thabete? Mr Ngxongo, you say you worked as a hit squad. In which area did you work under? I was working in the Durban South region, involving the following townships: Umlazi, Kwamashu, Claremont, Lamontville and Makuta. You say on your way to Nelspruit you changed numberplates on the cars. Why did you do that? Yes, I said that. We wanted to be sure that whoever sees the car, even if it's someone coming from where we're coming from, but they won't be able to recognise it even by looking at it and looking at the registration numbers, or they will recognise the car. Besides Mr Romeo Mbambo and Mr Makwena, who else was with you in Nelspruit when you shot Mr Thalede? Are you referring to the time in the shop? No, during the whole, how can I put it, from the time you arrived in Nelspruit, who else was involved in the planning and execution of Mr Thalede besides Romeo Mbambo and Mr Makwena? The other person that I remember, the person that also brought a firearm, it was David Makwena. No further questions, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS I'm at the committee's disposal, I'm prepared to start earlier if necessary. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible for Correctional Services to be able to be here by half past eight? DISCUSSION REGARDING TIME OF COMMENCEMENT THE FOLLOWING DAY COMMITTEE ADJOURNS