amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-11 PIETERMARITZBURG 8 SIKULU PATRICK HLENGWA AM 3418/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53167&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020112_pmb_990211pm.htm MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. The first matter on the roll for today is that of Sikulu Patrick Hlengwa, Application number 3418/96. MR SAMUEL Honourable Chairperson, I act for the applicant, surname is Samuel, the first name is Sivin. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are calling the applicant? MR SAMUEL I do. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hlengwa, please stand. Are you prepared to take the oath in this matter? MR HLENGWA SIKULU PATRICK HLENGWA (sworn, states). CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. MR SAMUEL Yes, thank you. Mr Hlengwa when were you born? MR HLENGWA 1960. MR SAMUEL And where did you live prior to you being incarcerated? MR HLENGWA At Umgababa. MR SAMUEL Are you applying for amnesty in respect of the murder of Mr Mbambo, which took place ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA Not Mbambo, but Mbeko. MR SAMUEL Was it Mr Hlakepani John Mbeko who was murdered on the 25th of January 1991? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER How do you spell Mbeko? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL That is correct, sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Do you belong to any political organisation? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL What organisation? MR HLENGWA ANC. MR SAMUEL When did you join the ANC? MR HLENGWA Even though I cannot remember very well, but I think in the 1980's. MR SAMUEL And did you join any specific organisation aligned to the ANC, during that time? MR HLENGWA UDF. MR SAMUEL Now the deceased, was he also a member of the ANC or the UDF? MR HLENGWA He was a member of the ANC as well. MR SAMUEL Now prior to the murder in 1991, can you describe what was happening to the ANC members in the Umgababa area? MR HLENGWA What do you mean when you say to describe? MR SAMUEL Can you tell us, were there any attacks on them? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Can you hold on? CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA In our area at Umgababa there were conflicts between the IFP and the ANC. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA There were fights between the two organisations. Some members of us, in other words, some members of ANC left ANC and joined IFP. We were continuously attacked. We used to camp.. MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA Many people were killed by IFP in the community, and those people who were killed were ANC members. CHAIRPERSON Were there many IFP people killed by the ANC as well, or by the UDF? MR HLENGWA No, there were not. They were not killed by ANC. IFP was the one who was attacking ANC. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so my question was that no IFP people were killed by the ANC people at that time? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Which party was, had a stronghold in the area where you lived? MR HLENGWA IFP. MR SAMUEL Were the IFP in a majority in that area? MR HLENGWA Yes, they were the majority. MR SAMUEL And did, at any stage, you as the ANC take any decisions to attack the IFP? MR HLENGWA Yes, we took that decision that we should attack them because they were attacking us. MR SAMUEL Were there any IFP people killed in these attacks? MR HLENGWA We were not lucky as to killing them. CHAIRPERSON You see they say, "...we decided". I would like to know when they decided. Where they decided. MR HLENGWA Even though I cannot remember when the decision was taken because it has been a long time, but we were usually holding meetings to take actions against the IFP, but we were not so lucky to get hold of them. CHAIRPERSON And what year are we talking about now? MR HLENGWA In 1991. ADV DE JAGER You said, "...We took the decisions". What was your role, were you a leader in the ANC? If not, who was the leader, and who took the decisions? MR HLENGWA I was just a member. The person who was the leader was Joe Ngema. MR SAMUEL Who started the attacks in the area? Was it the IFP or the ANC? MR HLENGWA IFP started. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL So just to reiterate for the record that the ANC then took the decision in response to attacks that were taking place on ANC members. MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Now you speak of these, this decision, being taken, this decision having been taken in 1991. When were the majority of the ANC members killed in that area? MR HLENGWA Yes, it was in 1991. I cannot remember very well but I think prior to 1991 there were attacks as well. MR SAMUEL Now a gentleman by the name of Stoffel, was he an ANC member? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Okay, before we get to that, when you say he used to come to us, did he attend any meetings of the ANC? MR HLENGWA Yes, I used to see him when we were having meetings, he will be present. MR SAMUEL At that meetings were there, was there anything secret, any secrets of the ANC in that area discussed? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Where were these meetings held? Were they held at a particular place, or were they held at different places? MR HLENGWA Usually in a school. MR SAMUEL Did Stoffel remain an ANC member, or did he join another party? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Mr Hlengwa you say Stoffel used to attend the ANC meetings. MR HLENGWA Yes, he used to come. MR SAMUEL Did he stop attending ANC meetings? MR HLENGWA Yes he did. MR SAMUEL When was this? MR HLENGWA The last time we saw each other it was in a meeting. The meeting was Nkotoyo School, in 1991. MR SAMUEL So is your answer the last time you saw him at a meeting was in 1991? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Now after Stoffel stopped coming to ANC meetings, what happened? MR HLENGWA After he stopped, we experienced problems when we were attacked in numbers. We were attacked in various places, even our hiding places were known or were revealed. It was like someone had revealed to the enemies that we were hiding wherever. MR SAMUEL Whose hiding places? When you say our hiding places, whose hiding places are you referring to? MR HLENGWA We ANC members. MR SAMUEL And what did you, to whom did you attribute this increase in the attacks against ANC members? MR HLENGWA It became clear to us that the person who was revealing this was Stoffel, because he knew our hiding places and our secrets. MR SAMUEL As an organisation, did the ANC discuss any strategies in regard to dealing with Stoffel? MR HLENGWA Yes, we did. ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL What did the ANC decide to do with Stoffel? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Just, sorry, how do you spell the name of that place? You met at Ukalo, how do you spell that? MR HLENGWA It was in the open space, the wilderness. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that name Ukhalo? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Yes, what happened at Ukhalo? MR HLENGWA We discussed and we came to a decision that we should look for Stoffel and we knew where his house was. I volunteered alone. I told the group, the ANC group, that I alone, I was going, my name, I was referred to as Malumi, and I told the group that I was going to approach him and I was going to hide somewhere because I knew his route, his usual route which he usually used, so I decided that I was going to hide and wait for him and attack him. MR SAMUEL What was the thinking behind sending you alone to approach Stoffel, and not the whole ANC group? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Did you manage to get hold of Stoffel? MR HLENGWA Yes, I did. MR SAMUEL When? When? MR HLENGWA At that time I went to the area where I told them I was going to wait next to his, closer to his house ...(intervention) MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA It was on a Saturday. MR SAMUEL Yes, how many weeks before the death of Mr Mbeko, did you manage to get hold of Mr Stoffel? MR HLENGWA I got hold of Stoffel first. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL If you listen to the question, perhaps you will be able to answer it. How many weeks before Mr Mbeko was killed, did you get hold of Mr Stoffel? MR HLENGWA Refresh his memory. Tell him when Mbeko was killed, according to the papers. ADV DE JAGER On the 20th of January 1991, Mbeko was killed. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON You mean it was two weeks before the killing of the deceased? MR HLENGWA I mean I killed Stoffel two weeks and then two weeks later I killed Mbeko. MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA I think I understand now. We held a meeting in the morning, and then I went the same day, that afternoon I went and attacked Stoffel. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA Stoffel then appeared. I went there. I waited for him, and then took him to the ANC members where I left them on the open space. CHAIRPERSON Did you not talk to Stoffel before you took him away? Did you say anything to him? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON You told him to accompany you. Where were you taking him to? MR HLENGWA We were off to the ANC members, taking him there to let him know that here is the men. CHAIRPERSON And what happened when you reached the place where the ANC members were? MR HLENGWA We then left with him, the other remained. We took him to another place called Ziko. CHAIRPERSON Please, my question was, when you took him to where the ANC people were, you and Stoffel arrived there, what happened? MR HLENGWA I told them that here is the man, and they asked him: "We do not find you here amongst the ANC members", and he agreed and said that the IFP people actually came and took him by force. CHAIRPERSON What did the ANC members ask Stoffel? MR HLENGWA They asked him on which side is he, as he was initially amongst the ANC members, and now where is he. And he answered, he said he was taken by IFP people by force. CHAIRPERSON What happened next? MR HLENGWA We took him to another place called Ziko to interrogate him. CHAIRPERSON Just spell the name of this place. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON So who went to Ziko? MR HLENGWA A lot of us went there. I cannot count how many were we. CHAIRPERSON And what happened at Ziko? MR HLENGWA On our arrival there, Mr Mahlangi Mbeko arrived, and asked that we should bring him, bring him to, as they were in-laws. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Are you not having any difficulty with this? INTERPRETER I am. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA He took Stoffel and then he said he would like to speak to Stoffel. CHAIRPERSON Just hold it. Where did he take Stoffel to? When you said he took Stoffel. MR HLENGWA We did not exactly know because their departure, both of them did not return. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON So the deceased and Stoffel left? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What happened next? MR HLENGWA Thereafter we dispersed. Our final word was that we will meet in the afternoon, CHAIRPERSON What happened next? MR HLENGWA Thereafter, while I was at home, I heard the kids crying, saying that there is an attack, people are actually approaching from the school. CHAIRPERSON Was it the same day? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So later that day, whilst you were at home, you heard the kids crying. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON So what was it that the kids were shouting? MR HLENGWA They said, "...Here is the war". CHAIRPERSON What is meant by here is the war? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Do you understand all this? ADV DE JAGER While he was at home that afternoon he was called by children coming from the school that there was a group coming to attack them. ADV DE JAGER Yes, now the children have warned you that there is a group approaching you, and they want to attack you. Is that correct? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Were they coming towards your house, this group? MR HLENGWA That is actually the place or the space which the attackers usually use whenever they attack us, so that is the place they use, or the area they use to enter when they attack us. CHAIRPERSON And how can they attack you when you are not in the area? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Just wait. There was nobody attacking at that time. The children said, "...Here are the attackers coming from the school." My question to you was, where were they? Were they coming? Were they coming to your house? MR HLENGWA These people were actually going to attack the entire area and particularly my house or my area. MR SAMUEL Just to clear something up. You say these children warned you of a group of people coming from the school towards your, towards a particular area. You also told us that this the route that the attackers normally use when they attack the area. MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What happened then? MR HLENGWA I went up to the upper area and the others had actually realised that, and then we were actually willing to face them. Unfortunately they were in larger numbers as compared to us and we ran away. ADV SIGODI Just to clear this. This area in which you stayed, was it a predominantly ANC area, or was it full of both IFP and ANC people? MR HLENGWA What I can say is that people were in larger numbers. IFP was no longer there. It was now ANC only, and they were attacking. IFP was attacking. The people who were residing there were now ANC. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Please, did they attack, did they shoot, did they kill anybody, when you ran away? MR HLENGWA Some died, some got injured. CHAIRPERSON You only learned that when you got back, because you had fled? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was the next thing that happened? MR HLENGWA Thereafter, MR SAMUEL Sorry, are you going on to the next day? I need to ask you some questions about the same day. Are you still dealing with the same day? MR HLENGWA Still the same day. MR SAMUEL Okay, go ahead. MR HLENGWA When we came back others had already told the police that were already attacked there at Umgababa, and people got injured, and the police from Umkomaas came and took the corpse. MR SAMUEL Now, the people that died, who were they and which party did they belong to? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Yes, just carry on. MR SAMUEL Who were the attackers? MR HLENGWA IFP members. MR SAMUEL Did you recognise any IFP member in particular there? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Now, did the ANC meet to discuss the attack on you on that particular day? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Did the meeting take any decision regarding these people? MR HLENGWA At that particular point in time the decision was taken, but it was never taken on that day. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON So there was a meeting? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And at that meeting people felt that the attack came about as a result of the work of Stoffel and the deceased? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What happened next? MR HLENGWA Thereafter, I met, we, I myself met with another ANC member. We discussed. ADV DE JAGER Who was this member? MR HLENGWA It was our leader, John Ngema. ADV DE JAGER What did you discuss, and did you receive any orders from him? MR HLENGWA We discussed that the way we were attacked, it is not due to the fact that, it was evident or apparent to us that they were told how they will actually find us, because these people were from amongst us. Because this actually happened the same day. ADV DE JAGER So you discussed it, and you concluded that Stoffel and Mbeko was responsible for the attack, or did play a part in the attack? MR HLENGWA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Now what did you decide what should you do about them, if anything? MR HLENGWA We took a decision that one of them must be killed. ADV DE JAGER Why not both of them? ADV SIGODI Did you say must be killed or ...? CHAIRPERSON What was decided specifically? Say it again. MR HLENGWA We took a decision that Mr Mhlanga Mbeko must be killed. CHAIRPERSON Although nobody saw Mr Mbeko as being part of the people that did the actual attacking? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Yes, I want to get it absolutely clear as to why was it decided that Mr Mbeko should be killed? Nobody saw him as part of the group that attacked your area. MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL After Stoffel escaped and the attack took place, did Mr Mbeko come to any other ANC meetings thereafter? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Did you not go and see Mr, the deceased, you and others, to question him about this suspicion you had? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Did you not take the trouble of going to him to see him? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL This incident you speak of took place on the day of the killing? MR HLENGWA Yes. MR SAMUEL The Honourable Chairperson was talking about before the decision to kill him was taken, did you not make any other efforts to discuss with this person who was a member of the organisation why he did what he did? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL And when he went missing in the area, what conclusions did you draw regarding his affiliations, political affiliations? CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about he, himself, or his group at a meeting or what? MR SAMUEL What conclusions did you draw yourself, and did the group meet and draw any conclusions regarding the disappearance of Mr Mbeko, the deceased? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Whenever you sent messages to him the messages did not reach him. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA They did not find him. CHAIRPERSON Carry on, now what happened after that? MR HLENGWA (TRANSLATION Indistinct) CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA We then left. We left the area to another house. We went to the Umtjale residence. MR SAMUEL Are you now talking about the day of the killing. MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Okay, you told us that you sent three men to the house of the deceased, and his wife told them that he was not around? MR HLENGWA Yes, the boys said that. MR SAMUEL The boys reported that to you? MR HLENGWA Yes. MR SAMUEL You now tell us that you then went to the Umtjale house? MR HLENGWA Yes. MR SAMUEL Why did you go there? MR HLENGWA Our going there was due to the fact that some people would meet there at Umtjale. MR SAMUEL Was this house a shebeen? MR HLENGWA Yes. MR SAMUEL Did you meet the deceased at the Umtjale house? MR HLENGWA We arrived there first, and then he came in later, but not that much later. MR SAMUEL What happened when the deceased arrive? MR HLENGWA He entered the house and requested what he needed, and thereafter I went straight to him, asked him to go with me outside. MR SAMUEL Go on. MR HLENGWA And thereafter he did not go back to the house. We then left with the other three, the ones that I had sent, we left. CHAIRPERSON This makes no sense. Does it make any sense to you? When you say, when he arrived that at the shebeen of Umtjale, you told him to come outside with you. Did he come outside with you? MR HLENGWA Yes he did. CHAIRPERSON Who else was with you, when the deceased came out? MR HLENGWA I was with Manci, Tuli and Boy Khoza. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell the name of this first person? INTERPRETER MR SAMUEL For the record, are these the three other people that appeared in the criminal ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON You were there, you asked him to accompany you, and you were with these three people? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What happened outside? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA And then I said to him, we should go to a camp where we are camping on that particular day. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. What happened next? MR HLENGWA And thereafter we left. Then I said we can leave. We proceeded. I was carrying a gun. CHAIRPERSON Did he accompany you? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he agree to accompany you? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he ask you why you had to go to the camp? MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI Just to clarify something. If you were taking him to the camp, did he come with you willingly? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL For the record, is it robbed or tricked? INTERPRETER Tricked. In other words we tricked him into coming with you. MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA We went to the road. We proceeded not for a long distance, but we did walk. It was myself and him in front, the other three were behind us. I was carrying a gun, 303 gun. I was carrying it right in the middle. We were talking. CHAIRPERSON Just hold on. When you say you were carrying the gun, where were you carrying it? In your hand? MR HLENGWA Yes, in my right hand. CHAIRPERSON And he could see it? MR HLENGWA Yes, he could see it. CHAIRPERSON Did he ask you why you were carrying a gun? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Yes, now then what happened next? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON While you were walking ahead of him, you had a gun in your hand, you then hit him with the gun? Right? MR HLENGWA And then he fell. ADV DE JAGER INTERPRETER He hit him with the gun, and then he fell. He hit him deliberately. CHAIRPERSON Listen to her. INTERPRETER He hit him deliberately with the gun and then he fell. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell him why you hit him? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON You see all this ought to have been brought out in its sequence. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Slowly. So you told him that he had taken Stoffel away from the meeting. Now proceed. And then? MR HLENGWA I told him the truth as to why I was taking him. There was no camp which I was taking him to. The truth was we needed to discuss with him, and there and then I hit him. CHAIRPERSON What was it that you said to us, that you told him that he had taken Stoffel away from the meeting? You remember saying that to us? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Carry on from there. So you said to him, "...We are going to kill you because you took Stoffel away from the meeting."? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA ...(not interpreted) CHAIRPERSON Mr HLENGWA And then people were killed after Stoffel was taken from the meeting. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Did you not ask him to explain, if you suspected that he had done something wrong, was he not given a chance to explain? He may have had a good explanation. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON So you killed a man without even affording him a chance to say what might be the truth? MR HLENGWA ...(not interpreted). CHAIRPERSON You killed a man without giving him a chance to tell you what might be the truth? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Be careful. MR SAMUEL Did you tell him that you suspected him of being a spy for the IFP? MR HLENGWA Yes, we told him. I told him that he was a traitor. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR HLENGWA These were my last words. I told him that he was a traitor. CHAIRPERSON And without giving him a chance to answer your allegation you just struck him down? MR HLENGWA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And after he fell down, what happened next? MR HLENGWA After he fell down my colleagues started stabbing him. They had knives and tomahawk and spears. Spears. CHAIRPERSON Did you join in, in stabbing him? MR HLENGWA Yes, I helped them. CHAIRPERSON You seemed to have great hesitation in answering. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Did you shoot him with a gun as well, besides stabbing him? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Yes, and what happened after you all stabbed him. Did you leave him lying there? MR HLENGWA Yes, we left him lying there. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Now, was there anyone else who witnessed this killing of Mr Mbeko? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Now the three people with you, were they also ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA ...(not interpreted) MR SAMUEL The three men with you, were they charged in the criminal trial? MR HLENGWA ...(not interpreted) CHAIRPERSON When were you arrested? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Now of the three, that is Temba Manci, Tembano Lethuli, and Boy Raymond Khoza, which of the three participated in the attack on the deceased? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL You were convicted of this offence, what sentence did you receive? MR HLENGWA Fifteen years. MR SAMUEL On what date were you sentenced? MR HLENGWA April 13, 1993. CHAIRPERSON At about what time of day or night was the deceased killed? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON How is it that your girlfriend happened to see this? Where did she suddenly appear from to see all this? MR HLENGWA She was going to my place where I was staying. CHAIRPERSON Yes but what was she doing on the road where you were taking the deceased? MR HLENGWA ...(not interpreted) CHAIRPERSON What was she doing on the road that you were taking the deceased? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Was the deceased related to your girlfriend? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL So when you are saying father do you mean that he is her, he is married to her mother, or are you saying that she regards him as a father and not, as opposed to a brother? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON That night, after the killing of the deceased, you went home? MR HLENGWA Yes, we all went home. CHAIRPERSON You saw your girlfriend there? MR HLENGWA Yes, I found her at my place. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell her that you killed one of her relatives? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION SIKULU PATRICK HLENGWA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Samuel, please proceed. EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA Yes, there is. MR SAMUEL You may take this opportunity of doing that. MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL I have no further questions, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL MR HLENGWA MS PATEL Okay. You said in your evidence earlier that some of the ANC members had moved over to the IFP because they were no longer liked by the ANC. Do you remember saying that? MR HLENGWA You say they were no longer liked? MS PATEL Yes, that is what you said this morning. MR HLENGWA MS PATEL No, your evidence was very specific. You said that some of us were no longer liked by the ANC. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL Yes, certainly, Honourable Chairperson. Can I ask, you know at the first meeting where a decision was taken that you would defend yourselves because the IFP was attacking members of your party? MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL You said that Joe Ngema was present at this meeting, that he was a leader. Can I ask whether the question ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL Was the question of specific targets discussed, or was it just a general mandate given to the members? MR HLENGWA There were no specific names mentioned. It was generally IFP because they were the ones attacking us, not specific names. MS PATEL Okay. Then you say that after Stoffel had stopped attending your meetings, you experienced problems with the IFP. Can I ask whether that, my question to you is, the problems that you experienced after he left, were they greater than the problems that you experienced before he left? CHAIRPERSON Or were they different? MR HLENGWA MS PATEL Can you elaborate please? Would you like to amplify on that? MR HLENGWA After he left it was a usual thing that every morning there will be houses will be attacked the previous night. MS PATEL Was Stoffel the only person who had stopped coming to the ANC meetings? MR HLENGWA It was just Stoffel. He was the only one who stopped. MS PATEL Okay. The decision to bring Stoffel to a meeting, you stated that you had gone to look for him because, you were sent out to look for him because you knew where he stayed, and you knew the route that he took. MR HLENGWA MS PATEL MR HLENGWA MS PATEL MR HLENGWA Yes, I do remember. MS PATEL But the fact of the matter is that you knew where to find Stoffel because you found him on the previous occasion. MR HLENGWA Yes, I knew where he was staying, but at the time, after he was taken from that meeting, in his place there was no-one, no single member of his family. Therefore he was no longer staying in that house. MS PATEL How do you know that he was no longer staying at the house? MR HLENGWA MS PATEL But the decision to kill Mr Mbeko, as I understand it, was taken on the same day that the attack from the IFP members who had come from the direction of the school, had taken place, not so? MR HLENGWA MS PATEL So when exactly did it happen? MR HLENGWA MS PATEL MR HLENGWA Now I understand. We met after we were attacked, and we took a decision that we were supposed to do something about what they were doing to us, and our decision was we were supposed to attack them. MS PATEL So you met immediately after you were attacked, or during, close to that period, not so? MR HLENGWA The very same day we met. The day of the attack, we met later. MS PATEL So how did you know, at that stage, that Mr Stoffel was no longer at his place of residence? Because the decision not to kill him was taken on the same day? CHAIRPERSON Was there a decision not to kill Stoffel? MS PATEL Well, there was a decision to kill only Mr Mbeko. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but no decision was taken not to kill Stoffel. MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL Alright. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL But ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MS PATEL Could I ask you, the meeting with Mr Ngema, where Mr Ngema and you decided that Mr Mbeko should be killed, when was that decision taken? Was it immediately after the meeting with the other ANC supporters or members, or was it some time after? Was it a few days after that you met alone with Mr Ngema? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA MS PATEL MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL Mr Mbeko then comes and asks for, and takes Mr Stoffel away. MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL MR HLENGWA MS PATEL Then after, the same day, later that afternoon, there is a meeting with you together with members of the ANC about the attack? MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL After that you have a meeting with Mr Joe Ngema alone, where it is decided that Mr Mbeko will be killed. MR HLENGWA ...(not interpreted). MS PATEL Now that last meeting between yourself and Mr Ngema, how long, or when exactly did that meeting take place? Did it take place on the same day that all the other meetings took place that I have just spoken about, or was it some days after? MR HLENGWA Now I do understand. We met with Mr Joe Ngema on the same day, the same day of the attack. MS PATEL If that is so, how would you have known on that very same day that Mr Stoffel would not be found MR HLENGWA MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON I think his evidence was that they decided that the deceased should be killed. MS PATEL Is he not retracting that now, Honourable Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA MS PATEL MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI MR HLENGWA Sorry? ADV SIGODI MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI So just to clarify that, you are saying that Mbeko was a bigger problem than Stoffel because he was still part of the organisation and is one who was taking people from the organisation and taking them over to the IFP. Just wait until I am finished. MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER Now, Mrs Mbeko, the wife of Mr Mbeko was killed, have made a statement saying that she and Mr Mbeko was supporters of the UDF. That they even could not sleep at their house, because they feared that the IFP would kill them. Would you say that could be true? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA I would like you to repeat this. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON So the meeting agreed, and allowed the deceased to take Stoffel away? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON They had no objection to the deceased taking Stoffel away? MR HLENGWA There was no objection, cause we thought that he was going to bring him back. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON So the meeting trusted the deceased when he was allowed to take Stoffel away? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Up to that stage there was no reason to suspect that the deceased was a secret member of another organisation? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON So what evidence is there for believing that he, the deceased, was an informer or a member of the IFP, for you to want to kill him MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA That is so. CHAIRPERSON So Stoffel left no doubt in your mind that he was on the other side when he attacked? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Listen carefully because I want to write that down. Yes MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. M Hlengwa, do you recall having written a letter to the Amnesty Committee, setting out the circumstances ...? MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL Alright. Let me read to you an extract from the letter that you sent us. For the record, Honourable Chairperson, page 8 of the bundle. This is what you said to us happened at the camp. You said "At the camp we were intending to kill him, but unfortunately his brother-in-law Mr Shangani Mbeko, he forbidding his killing by saying what he had done it was his first mistake." Right? Then: "Mr Ngcobo, he was released." MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL Why have you told us now, then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Ask him if what he agrees with what he said. INTERPRETER MS PATEL Do you agree that that is what you had said, in your letter? MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL Do you agree that that is different to what you are telling us now? MR HLENGWA Actually that, the statements that I made here in the TRC, I think I made three of them, were wrote to Bloemfontein and then we were sent ...(intervention) MS PATEL Will you please ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA We first wrote to Bloemfontein if I am not mistaken, and then we were told ...(intervention) MS PATEL Mr Hlengwa would you please ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA MS PATEL Yes. MR HLENGWA Where is the difference? MS PATEL MR HLENGWA Taken Mbeko or Stoffel? MS PATEL Sorry, Stoffel away. MR HLENGWA MS PATEL MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER So the meeting agreed to give him a chance. To give Stoffel a chance, and they allowed him to go. MR HLENGWA Yes, he left with him. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA Yes, we did agree in that regard. CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA What made me angry, to be more angry, is that at their departure they did not come back and tell us what they have discussed and what has happened, and then we discovered that we are now being attacked. ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA We took that decision. ADV DE JAGER I follow that. That afternoon you went to the shebeen and you had drinks there? MR HLENGWA In actual fact myself, I did not drink liquor, but the people that I was with, they did get liquor in the shebeen. ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER Why did you go to the shebeen? What do you want to find out, or do, there? MR HLENGWA Our aim at the shebeen was that, because it was a Friday and mostly the guys normally go there and we would meet there, and in that he also came. ADV DE JAGER Was that an ANC frequented shebeen, or an IFP, or members of both parties came to this place? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR HLENGWA The deceased. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. You made a statement shortly after you were arrested, in which you set out the circumstances of this incident, and you stated that you hit the deceased with a stick, and you go further and you say I remember this although I was drunk. Do you remember saying that? Do you still maintain ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA ... (not interpreted) CHAIRPERSON Where is this statement? MS PATEL MR HLENGWA MS PATEL MR HLENGWA ..(no English interpretation) MS PATEL MR HLENGWA No. In that statement I did not enter into any argument with the shebeen owner. MS PATEL And you had absolutely nothing to drink? MR HLENGWA Yes. I agreed to that to the police because of the way they were questioning me, the police, what I put forward to them was not the truth. MS PATEL MR HLENGWA MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL MR HLENGWA I hit at him with the gun and I took a tomahawk and then hit at him while he was lying down. MS PATEL And you say the rest of the people there assisted in you assaulting the deceased? MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL Except Luthuli? MR HLENGWA Yes. MS PATEL Okay, did Manci also stab the deceased? MR HLENGWA Yes indeed. MS PATEL He denied that at the trial. CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL His evidence was also accepted, Honourable Chairperson. He was in fact found not guilty. CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL In his further particulars to us, Honourable Chairperson, he stated, let me just, he says on page 8, Honourable Chairperson, paragraph 4 "I got it from my commander that I should kill..." Is that used or kill? MR HLENGWA "The gun I got it from my commander that I used to kill Mr Mhlango." MS PATEL My apologies, Honourable Chairperson, I misread that. ADV DE JAGER Did Mr Ngema give you the gun to kill Mr Mbeko? MR HLENGWA That gun was usually carried by me, yes it was given by him. It was always been with me. It has always been with me, that gun. ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA No, he gave me it to protect the members of ANC. MS PATEL "We, the Self Defence Unit, together with our commander, we took a decision to kill the deceased." MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON I think he said the two of them met. MR SAMUEL No that was when the Honourable Member questioned him. When Ms Patel questioned him, he said: "we met with Mr Ngema after we were attacked on the same day." CHAIRPERSON Yes well the word we can clear it up because sometimes these words are used loosely. Put your question Ms Patel. MS PATEL MR HLENGWA I will explain. I think I was, it is the same Joe that I am referring to. It is the same Joe that I am referring to. ADV DE JAGER "Blackmail Ngema said that the people who were at my house have fulfilled their will. He then explained that my husband had been killed." CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) that their will may have become accepted by others, but the decision, whether the decision was take by the Self Defence Unit, or by him and Ngema. It met with the approval after the act was done yes. Now the question that was being put to you was, you see we get too versions. I took a note that you and Ngema met and you took a decision to kill the deceased. Then in this paragraph to which ...(intervention) MR HLENGWA ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) to which Ms Patel refers you, she says that the Self Defence Unit together with our commander took the decision to kill the deceased. Now which of that is correct? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON We are talking about whether you met Mr Ngema and decided this with him, or whether the Self Defence Unit met Mr Ngema and decided to kill the deceased. MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON Alright. INTERPRETER MR HLENGWA The two of us, myself and Mr Ngema. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Is that all? MS PATEL INTERPRETER Sorry, where, what? MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL Yes, exactly. CHAIRPERSON Well, a statement has been made by the widow the deceased. Among other things, it would appear from that statement that Ngema, who you say took the decision with you to kill the deceased, goes to the house of the deceased, and talks to the widow of the deceased, about the deceased. Now if he was responsible for killing the deceased, why would he go to her house? MR HLENGWA MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL ADV SIGODI Do you know where Mr Ngema is today? MR HLENGWA Yes, I do. ADV SIGODI Where is he? MR HLENGWA In prison. CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuel, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON There would be room for argument, you know, it depends on how this statement was taken down, and by whom, and so on, but you may put the question in the form in which this thing is worded. MR SAMUEL She says that Mr Ngema said that they had carried out their will. Do you know who Mr Ngema was referred to? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL I withdraw that question, Honourable Chairperson. Now, I just want to take you back to two aspects of your evidence. Firstly, when Stoffel returned with the IFP members and attacked you, after the meeting at which he left with the deceased, was the deceased with you defending yourselves? Was he to be seen at the time of the attack? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The deceased was not there among the attackers. No mention is made about the deceased being there among the attackers. MR SAMUEL No, Honourable Chairperson, I want to know was he there as one of the people being attacked? Let me put this in a sequence that you will find easier to understand. After Mr Mbeko, the deceased, and Mr Stoffel left, the meeting dispersed, and you came back into your area. Amongst the attackers you saw Mr Stoffel and other IFP members. Where was the deceased at that time? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Was his house close to your house? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL If he had been at home, would he have come out of his house in response to the attack? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON Lots of others may not have been there at the time of the attack. The attack may have been a surprise. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Other members agreed to Stoffel being taken away. MR SAMUEL May I have your consent to explore this? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL Thank you. Did you see Mr Mbeko during the attack or after the attack by the IFP members. MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA We used to try to defend ourselves, but they were quite in numbers compared to us. They used to overpower us. We usually ran away. They used to say they were going to chase us to the seas. MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA Which day you are referring? MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER Did they attack your family? MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA When I took Stoffel to the meeting we wanted to interrogate him. We wanted to ascertain from him why was it so that he was with us sometimes, before he was with us many times, and then he disappeared from our meetings or disappeared from us, and the reasons were that if we ascertained that he was a member of IFP we were going to kill him MR SAMUEL Now, did you get a chance to interrogate him? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA The reason was that Mr Mbeko was going to talk to him and he was going to bring him back and we were going to continue and interrogate him. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON He said in page 8, in his own handwriting, the second paragraph, in the middle of the second paragraph "He was released." In the middle of that paragraph on page 8, the second paragraph. You see that, yes? Those are his words. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON We might be able to then question the entire statement ...(indistinct). INTERPRETER MR SAMUEL The difficulty I have is that my instructions are somewhat different ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Put your instructions to him. MR SAMUEL Now, is it not your instructions to me that he, Mr Mbeko, asked to speak to Mr Stoffel? MR HLENGWA CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, but may I just have one final attempt at clearing this up, thank you. MR HLENGWA MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL So what were they going to do? Why was it necessary for Mr Mbeko to take Mr Stoffel away from the meeting? What were they going to do outside the earshot of the meeting? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL These people have been told that they have made a mistake CHAIRPERSON They were told he had made a mistake and this was his first mistake, and so they decided to release him. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON You can argue the probabilities. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). MR SAMUEL MR HLENGWA ADV DE JAGER Was it an hour, two hours, six hours, half a day, how long? MR HLENGWA I think it was about thirty minutes we arrived in that meeting and then Mr Mbeko came. MR SAMUEL What did you establish from Mr Stoffel, that was pertinent to your questions that you asked him? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Were you happy with that answer that he gave? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Why do you say that? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL Okay just one final question now Mr Hlengwa. If you knew that Mr Mbeko was going to take Mr Stoffel away from that meeting and not return, would you have allowed Mr Stoffel to go with Mr Mbeko? MR HLENGWA MR SAMUEL I have no further questions, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Where is Stoffel now? MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI What political objective did you think you are going to achieve by killing Mr Mbeko? MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI And this distrust came only after he had taken Stoffel with him, and then there was this attack by the ANC? Otherwise before that you had trusted him completely? MR HLENGWA The situation was bad. ADV SIGODI Just answer yes or no. MR HLENGWA Had you trusted Mr Mbeko completely before he took Mr Stoffel with him? Answer just yes or no. MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI He had not done anything to betray the organisation before he took Stoffel with him? MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI You did not see him talking to IFP people at all, or liaising with them? MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI CHAIRPERSON That is his reason. ADV SIGODI MR HLENGWA ADV SIGODI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you may stand down. Are you calling any other witnesses? WITNESS EXCUSED MR SAMUEL No Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL MS PATEL No thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) WITNESS EXCUSED MR SAMUEL ADDRESSES COMMITTEE The applicant applies for amnesty in respect of the death of a certain Mr Mbeko who was killed on the 25th of January 1991. Although both were members of the UDF, which is affiliated to the ANC, the applicant has stated that there was a suspicion that the deceased was a spy for the IFP who, during that period, had conducted a reign of terror against the ANC members in the area. He has indicated that a number of members were killed, that he belonged to a Self Defence Unit which, whose function is well known to the Committee, for the purpose of the record, to defend themselves against the attacks by IFP members. He indicated that a decision was taken to kill IFP members but they were not lucky in doing that. At some stage a former member, Stoffel, had stopped attending the ANC meetings, and coincidental, or perhaps not so coincidental with that occurrence, the raids on the ANC members in the area increased, and the hiding places of the ANC people became known to IFP people. The ANC then took a decision to interrogate and kill Stoffel if it was established that he was the spy for the IFP. Stoffel was then brought to a meeting by the applicant and at that meeting he was in the process of being interrogated. And this is perhaps where there is two interpretations of what transpired. I will argue that the following is a more probable version, that whilst this meeting was being conducted the deceased arrived and made a plea on behalf of Stoffel, that this was his first mistake. However, in the light of the circumstances, even if he had made one mistake in which ANC or UDF people were killed, the meeting was unlikely to forgive him for that, because life was already lost, lives were already lost, so no matter how much the deceased would have pleaded for the life of Stoffel, people who had lost their fellow comrades were not going to release him so willingly. However, because they trusted the deceased, they allowed him, and perhaps the reason for that is maybe the deceased would have got more information from Stoffel than they could possibly get at that date. He left the meeting never to return. ADV DE JAGER MR SAMUEL What is clear is that they trusted the deceased. ADV DE JAGER MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL ADV SIGODI MR SAMUEL Sure, it may well be that he ran away, but thereafter as a member of the ANC who has taken away this person who returned to attack and kill ANC people, he should have presented himself at their meetings. ADV SIGODI Why should he? CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about the deceased? MR SAMUEL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Should have attended the meetings? MR SAMUEL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL According to the applicant the deceased was nowhere to be found until the day he actually died. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON We know that the decision reached the deceased. MR SAMUEL That is correct Honourable Chairperson, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL That is correct, and what is important is what conclusions the applicant drew based on these suspicious circumstances. CHAIRPERSON What suspicious circumstances? ...(indistinct) any? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON One reason why they released him was because the deceased told them this was the first mistake this man has made. The apparently accepted that it was his first mistake. They might have been wrong in their judgment. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Yes in the mind of the applicant ...(indistinct). MR SAMUEL And given the circumstances under which they lived during that time, I believe it was probably the state of emergency time, when even the government of the day were taking decisions without probable cause and without clinical examination, so if these people under attack took these decisions without the strongest of legal evidence ...(intervention). ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL That is the other way, if you leave my interpretation out of it and you follow the other alternative interpretation. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, proceed. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Surely in those times, to have someone who one suspected of being an informer for the other side, even if he lived there, even if he were expelled as a member of the ANC, he would still be in a position to give information on logistics, etc., pertaining to the operation of the ANC, which would then be utilised by the IFP to carry out the raids and attacks. A simple telephone call would indicate to the IFP that the ANC members were meeting at such a particular a place, or that the ANC members were not in the area, the men were not in the area, and the attack could be carried out. So, given those circumstances, one can understand the drastic action that was taken, the drastic action in killing someone suspected of being a spy in those times. It appears that Mr Ngema was involved in the decision. He was the leader of the area. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? MS PATEL ADDRESS COMMITTEE ADV DE JAGER MS PATEL Furthermore, regarding the question of the decision, I would ask you to take into consideration the evidence of the wife of the deceased, who stated that Mr Ngema had in fact visited her on the morning of the death of the deceased, and that if in fact he had been party to the decision to kill the deceased, he would not have acted accordingly. To say that it was acceptable for him to conduct himself in the way that he did under the circumstances that prevailed during those times, Honourable Chairperson, I believe is an unacceptable explanation. If one looks at the way in which Stoffel was handled, there was a suspicion amongst the organisation that he was involved with the IFP, that there was a structure in place that Mr Stoffel was then, in fact, collected, that there was an agreement that he would then be interrogated, and on that basis a decision would have been taken to kill him if their suspicions were in fact confirmed. This was not done in this case. In fact, the applicant could not even confirm whether the deceased had in fact received the messages to come to the meetings, so with respect, the correct procedure in terms of the organisation, would not have been to act in the manner that he had. So, it is my respectful submission that he was untruthful in terms of whether he was, in terms of the fact that he was authorised to carry out the act that he in fact did. If one looks at the information that he acted on, it is my respectful submission that it was disproportionate to the action that was in fact taken eventually. That there were in fact other avenues that were available to the applicant that he did not take. It is my...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL MR SAMUEL Just one point, Honourable Chairperson, I think that as far as the proportionality element is concerned, I believe that the test should be not only the information or suspicion or the evidence that he had which implicated the deceased, but also the type of harm that he was trying to prevent, and here, if in fact the deceased was a spy, then that could have resulted in the death of a number of people. Already, by releasing Stoffel, some people died, so I believe that therefore the action taken was proportional to the intended harm. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. The Committee reserves its decision and will in due course, when it has made its decision, announce it to all the interested parties. We now will adjourn and resume at 2:15. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS PUMANI DEREK MWELI: AM 0599/96 ON RESUMPTION MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. The next matter on the roll for today is that of Pumani Derek Mweli, application number 599/96. MR SAMUEL I appear on behalf of the applicant, Honourable Chairperson. Samuel, first name Sivin. MS WILLIAMS Honourable Chairperson I appear on behalf of the implicated persons. Williams, initials G.E. CHAIRPERSON MS WILLIAMS My name is Williams, initials G.E. CHAIRPERSON Did I hear you correctly? The first name? MS WILLIAMS Gillian. CHAIRPERSON Gillian? MS WILLIAMS MR WILLS ADV DE JAGER Mr Wills would you be able to give us a list of the names tomorrow or so to be handed in? MR WILLS I have the list now if we can just get it photocopied for you, for each Member. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Samuel, you may proceed. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Please sort that out. Mr Mweli will you please stand. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mweli please stand. Are you prepared to take the oath in this matter? EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Mr Mweli, when were you born? MR MWELI In 1974, May 20. MR SAMUEL And are you applying for amnesty in respect of seven counts of murder, four counts of attempted murder, and two counts of assault GBH in respect of which you were convicted? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Now, prior to your arrest, Mr Mweli, where were you residing? MR MWELI I resided in Stage Two, in Hlohloko Road. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Where is this road? MR MWELI Downwards in Stage Two, the very last road or street. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but where is this place, Stage Two? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Were you residing anywhere else before you came to live in Stage Two? MR MWELI No, I was born there, in Imbali that is. MR SAMUEL Where were you schooling? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Just give me that name again, and how do you spell it? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON And the last one? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Up to what standard of education, or up to what standard did you proceed in your education? MR MWELI Up to standard five. MR SAMUEL Whilst you were schooling, with whom did you live? MR MWELI I was with my sister in Hlobohlobo at Imbali. MR SAMUEL What Stage did your sister live in Imbali? MR MWELI In Stage Two. MR SAMUEL Did anything happen to the house in which your sister lived? MR MWELI At the time when I was still residing with my sister her house was set alight, was burned by UDF members if I am not mistaken. MR SAMUEL When you say her house was burned, what happened to the house. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). MR SAMUEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. How did the house get burned? Did someone take a match and literally light a fire in the house, or did the fire start as a result of some form of attack? MR MWELI The house was burned by petrol bombs. MR SAMUEL When the house was attacked by petrol bombs, by people throwing, wielding, petrol bombs, where, was there anyone in the house? MR MWELI Yes, there was, my sister and my brother-in-law and their child. Because I had visited somewhere I was not in the house. MR SAMUEL What happened to these people? MR MWELI The neighbours enlisted help to them and they were able to escape this ordeal, but the property was burned. CHAIRPERSON When did this fire take place? MR MWELI This fire took place at night, or in the evening. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON So tell us, what year was it? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes please proceed Mr Samuel. MR SAMUEL Now why, do you know why this house was attacked? Do you know why this house was attacked? MR MWELI What I know and what I will be able to say is that it was burned because my sister and my elder brothers were IFP members, known as Inkatha at the time, as well as the fact that they used to teach at Zulu schools. MR SAMUEL Now, did you ever get any information at any later stage as to who, which individuals, carried out this attack? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL That is correct, Honourable Chairperson. MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Do you remember the names of these people? MR MWELI Some of them yes, I do have the recollection of their names, like Nzo, the first one. The second one Duma. MR SAMUEL How did you learn that these people were responsible for the attack? From whom did you learn that? MR MWELI I gathered that from the neighbours who saw that, as well as other people who were used to around in the area. Some prisoners will give me this information as to the attackers. MR SAMUEL Now, the area that the house was situated in, the house that was burned was situated in, was that area affiliated or populated by people from one political party or more than one political party? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL After your, the house that you lived in, was burned down, did you move and live elsewhere? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that please. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Malangosi? MR MWELI Yes, Mahlongosi Road. MR SAMUEL Now this area that you moved to, is it populated by people from one political party? MR MWELI Mahlongosi Road where we went to was an IFP stronghold area. That street was Inkatha, was filled with Inkatha people. MR SAMUEL What organisation do you belong to? Political organisation? MR MWELI The IFP. MR SAMUEL when did you join the IFP? MR MWELI I joined it in 1987, to be a fully fledged member. I joined in 1987 as a full member. MR SAMUEL Did you join before your house in Stage Two was burned, or after our house in Stage Two was burned? MR MWELI I joined after they burned my house in Stage Two. MR SAMUEL Do you already, or did you hold any office or position in the IFP? MR MWELI Yes. I was after residing there and working because the people there they ended up electing me as a chairman of IFP right there in the area. ADV DE JAGER How old was he then, were you then? You joined the IFP at the age of 13, thirteen years of age in 1987. MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER At what age were you elected to be chairman? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Who was the leader of the IFP in that area? MR MWELI You mean amongst the youth, or the elderly, or the adults? CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI The chairman was Abdul Awetta. CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that name please. MR MWELI MR SAMUEL MR MWELI I was referring to the youth. There were wards. There will be wards 3, 4, 2, 1. My chairman was Derick. The secretary was Mafigizong. The treasurer was Kwahnidladla. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI I was Inkatha chairman, youth brigade, in ward four. CHAIRPERSON Which is in Stage One? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Now the, you mentioned Mr Abdul Awetta as being the leader of the IFP. Was he the leader of the IFP for the whole of Imbali? MR MWELI We took him as the leader or chairman of ward four. The chairman of Natal Midlands was VP Ndlovu and David Ntombela. ADV DE JAGER Would you please repeat the names. David Ntombela and who was the other one? MR MWELI Mr VP Ndlovu. Vilapi Ndlovu his name. So the initial would be V. CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. MR SAMUEL Are there any other important IFP people, leaders that you met, and whom you worked with, after you joined the IFP, that you will be mentioning in your evidence later, but for the record we need to get the names down. MR MWELI Yes, the late Jerome Mncwabe CHAIRPERSON Spell that name please. MR MWELI Jerome, G CHAIRPERSON I got that, the surname. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SAMUEL Anyone else? MR MWELI Mr Gasela, we used to call him Mr Gasela. CHAIRPERSON Spell that name again. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR SAMUEL Now, during this period, were there any violent acts committed by and against IFP members? MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER MR SAMUEL Let me clear that up Honourable Member. ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI January 1989, 23rd the date. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI Yes, there were. MR SAMUEL Who was carrying out these attacks? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL You told us there were attacks on IFP members. People were attacking IFP members. Who was carrying out these attacks on IFP members? MR MWELI Those were ANC members, who were in Stage One. Each time that I was passing a car, or drive past, ADV DE JAGER There was also attacks vice versa, the two parties attacked each other, at that time? MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER There was many attacks between the two parties during that period? MR MWELI Very true. MR SAMUEL Did you as an IFP member also attack ANC or UDF people? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Now, were you given any instructions by your organisation relating to attacks on ANC members, or UDF members? MR MWELI Yes, to tell the truth, I would say yes, I would receive instructions from the leaders locally or around, and some us as members of IFP volunteered to attack. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes, I would receive instructions from them. CHAIRPERSON Who ...(indistinct) ADV DE JAGER Give us the names who gave you instructions. MR MWELI Mr Abdul Awetta was the first. Mr Jerome Mncwabe the second. Mr Gasela as well. ADV DE JAGER When was this? MR MWELI It happened in Imbali after I was staying in Stage One, in 1988. ADV DE JAGER And the Chairperson asked you what were you instructed to do? MR MWELI I was instructed to kill the members of the UDF. And to chase them away from Imbali. CHAIRPERSON Where were these instructions given to you? Where were you? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL When you say we, to whom are you referring? Who were these instructions given to besides yourself? MR MWELI ...(indistinct) and the people I used to keep company with was Dladla Luthuli. Dladla Luthuli I would inform of the instructions I would have received. MR WILLS MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON So you passed on to Dladla Luthuli what information you had received. Is that it? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Where is Dladla Luthuli now? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Besides receiving these instructions, were you given any weapons, by these people? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us what weapons you received from them, and from whom, and when? MR MWELI Mr Awetta often gave us ammunition, and Jerome Mncwabe would give us firearms and others would assist by buying us ammunition. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON What arms? MR MWELI Seven point six five, and three point eight special. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR SAMUEL Did you ever receive any money from these people? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us how much you received, when you received it, and what was this money given to you for? MR MWELI Awetta gave me five hundred rand and said I should buy clothes. Jerome gave me three hundred rand, sometimes. It was not only Awetta who gave me money, but other gave me money as well. CHAIRPERSON Were you not working at that time? MR MWELI No, I was not working. CHAIRPERSON What were you doing? MR MWELI I was a student. MR SAMUEL Why did these people give you so much money? MR MWELI They had said this is the money they are giving out to me as a person who is a hard worker for their organisation, or who is working hard for the organisation. MR SAMUEL What hard work were you doing for the organisation? MR MWELI Like fighting against UDF people and killing them. MR SAMUEL So they were happy with you fighting and killing UDF people? MR MWELI I will say they took me as a hero. MR SAMUEL Did you ever perform any duties for Mr Mncwabe, Mr Gasela and Mr VP Ndlovu, was it, did you ever perform any duties for them? MR MWELI No, except for killing. MR SAMUEL You told us that you were involved in fighting with the UDF members. Can you tell us about these skirmishes that you had. ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI The instructions would entail killing, to kill and eliminate UDF and in other words UDF should cease to exist. MR SAMUEL Why did you want UDF to cease to exist? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL So was that your political objective in trying, in carrying out these orders to kill UDF people? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON What, are you talking about skirmishes in which he personally was involved? MR SAMUEL I want you to speak about those instances where you and the UDF people clashed, in which you were involved, without dealing with specific instances. Just tell us what used to happen when UDF members confronted ANC members, or IFP members. What happened then? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Just hold on, I want to take this down. You were given muti? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON By who? MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER Who did the cutting? Mr Gasela or somebody else? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Why were you given muti by these people? What was the purpose? MR MWELI The purpose was to give us that crave to kill and give us that braveness to kill others but be protected at the same time from being shot and killed. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Were you lucky? Now you say Mr Gasela was the one who administered the muti, or arranged for the muti to be administered, as well as Mr Themba Tjale? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Besides you, who else did you observe muti being administered to? CHAIRPERSON Do you want the names of the individuals? MR SAMUEL Just the description, I want to know whether there were others who were given muti. Were there others also given muti? MR MWELI Yes, there were others. MR SAMUEL Were these young people, or older people? MR MWELI Sometimes it will be youth as well as adults. MR SAMUEL Were they also given muti for the same purpose? MR MWELI Yes, especially to the people who were committed to the fact that they hate UDF, and the ones who were very active in fighting. Those were the candidates of receiving the muti. The ones who were committed and dedicated to the fight. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL So, instead of the word soldiers, can I rephrase that? So this muti was given to all the fighters of the IFP? MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER Was it given to all the fighters, or to those special fighters who were really committed and dedicated to the fighting, or did all the supporters receive muti? MR MWELI It was not every person who would be given muti. They will only elect the chosen few, the dedicated few, those will be the ones they will administer muti to. MR SAMUEL What were you chosen for? For what purpose were you chosen? MR MWELI The purpose of killing the UDF members. MR SAMUEL So muti was administered to those who would carry out the orders to kill? MR MWELI Very true. CHAIRPERSON I thought that it was given to people who were ready and dedicated to kill, not necessarily those who were ordered to kill? Do carry on. MR SAMUEL Now, were these attacks on the UDF and the ANC members, were they attacks which were in all instances planned to the very last detail, or did these attacks take place in some instances spontaneously when you saw these people in front of you? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I want to now proceed onto the specific counts, unless the Committee Members have any questions before I move into that sequence of events? CHAIRPERSON No, I think just proceed. MR SAMUEL Now, you were charged with in all 19 counts, some of attempted murder, one count of robbery, and other counts of murder, correct? ADV DE JAGER Referring to pages 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33 of the record. MR SAMUEL That is correct Honourable Member. Now, you were convicted of counts 1, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 19. Is it in respect of these counts that you apply for amnesty? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Dealing with count 1. Count 1 deals with the death of ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Deals with the attempted murder of Sibusiso Johnson Sibisi, not the death of. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI Yes, I do recall. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us what transpired on that day? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Which political party did he belong to? MR MWELI He had not joined any political organisation, but the family was IFP, or his family was IFP, as far as I knew him. MR SAMUEL Who, as far as your information is concerned, was responsible for his death? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Why was it necessary to guard his house? MR MWELI That house used to be attacked by UDF members quite often. They will ... stones on the house, and now we will take turns in guarding the house, or shifts in guarding the house. MR SAMUEL When you say we used to take turns, who are you referring to? MR MWELI It were IFP members. Somtimes it will be Museni, somtimes Thembo Sibeko and they will even sleep there. Sometimes it will be myself and Dladla and sometimes it will be myself and Kwani Dladla. CHAIRPERSON Just talk about the 27th of October. Who was guarding the house? Yourself? MR MWELI Yes, on that particular day it was myself and Kwani. MR SAMUEL When you went to guard this house, did you arm yourself? Did you carry an arm? MR MWELI Yes, we were armed. MR SAMUEL What weapon did you have? MR MWELI I had a firearm, and Kwani had a home-made firearm. MR SAMUEL What happened on that day? MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI MR SAMUEL When you refer to Sibu, are you speaking of Sibisizo Sibisi? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Who was the complainant in that case and who testified against you in the criminal trial? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). MR SAMUEL That is correct, Honourable Chairperson. You saw Sibu with other people, some of whom were armed with spears. What happened? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Can you go slowly because the Honourable Members are taking down notes. What did they ask you? MR MWELI They were coming closer to me and as I noticed that they had spears and part of that gang that we were fighting against and I drew out the gun. CHAIRPERSON You told us who, he asked you "...why I was harassing the girl." Which girl was he talking about? MR MWELI Zodla. CHAIRPERSON Who is she? MR MWELI It was my girlfriend at the time. CHAIRPERSON And so when he asked you this, what did you say to him? MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER Was Zodla with you at that stage? MR MWELI Yes, I was with her, we were coming from my house, or the area where my house is. CHAIRPERSON They were coming closer to you, and then what happened? MR MWELI Then I took out my gun and I began shooting. MR SAMUEL Why did you take your gun out and start shooting. MR MWELI Because I knew very well that as they were drawing closer they would stab me so in protecting or defending myself this is what I should employ, should, because those were our rivals, people we were fighting against. MR SAMUEL When you say they were your rivals, what do you mean? MR MWELI It was quite usual at Umlatangosi to fight against Hlagoti, it was the shops. There were borders that this group was automatically fighting the other across the border. MR SAMUEL Was it a territorial war, or was it a war relating to political affiliations? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Tell us about this, your pulling out your gun and firing. Who did you fire at, and how many times? MR MWELI I was shooting towards their direction many times, and they fled. Subsequently another gang or group emerged and approached me and asked me, and I told them as to what happened and we tried looking out for them but we could not discover or see them. CHAIRPERSON Did you injure anybody when you shot at them that day? MR MWELI I think there was who got injured. CHAIRPERSON Who? MR MWELI I heard that afterwards that that person was Sibu, in prison. MR SAMUEL Now, you heard evidence at the trial in which it was suggested that you were fighting with your girlfriend and they came to her assistance and it had nothing to do with political affiliations? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Did you want to kill those people when you fired the shots at them as they fled? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Why? MR MWELI That is because I knew very well that those were people we were fighting against. They belonged to ANC. Each time they approach me it was so clear and obvious that I have to kill. MR SAMUEL Are you saying that you would have killed any ANC or UDF person who was fighting you, in that period, if you came across them? MR MWELI Not everybody, but the ones we would often fight with and the ones I would receive complaints about, those will be the ones I will target or fight against. MR SAMUEL Did you receive any complaints or orders relating to Sibu, as you call him, or the people that he joined from that particular area? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Were you ordered by anybody to kill Sibisi on that day? MR MWELI No, on that day I had no instruction but we are going to guard the house as I had explained earlier on, and now we encountered these, they came and approached me, now I told myself that I have to protect or defend. MR SAMUEL Did you receive any complaints about Sibu and the people that he joined? CHAIRPERSON After killing him, or after shooting him? MR SAMUEL Prior to that, Honourable Chairperson. Before you shot him, did you received any complaints about him and his associates? CHAIRPERSON Do you mean on that day? MR SAMUEL No, Honourable Chairperson. MR MWELI Yes. I once had instructions about him because even himself would not be, would not frequent, would not come to Umlatlankosi at all, so he knew very well that he was wanted by us. MR SAMUEL Why did you want him MR MWELI He was one of the gang that was harassing from Stage One. MR SAMUEL What were they doing, this gang? MR MWELI It was a gang that would harass some women or some brothers or fellow people and the kids as well, the children, should they go anywhere else they will harass them, approach them and harass them. ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER On that day did it have anything to do with politics, or did you fight them because they accused you of harassing your girlfriend? MR MWELI As they were approaching, coming to me, they were UDF members, the people, besides the fact that we were fighting for personal vendettas, I think they had intended to kill me. ADV SIGODI Did you have any personal vendettas between yourself and Sibusiso Sibizi? MR MWELI No, I never had any personal vendetta towards Sibu. MR SAMUEL You told us that after they had fled another gang came there and you went and looked for these people. Who was this other gang? MR MWELI Bekizulu, Huseni, as well as Dodi Zulu. Those are the ones who approached subsequent to this event. MR SAMUEL Were these a gang of criminals? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON They may be working as a gang as well. It depends. Anyway, proceed please. MR SAMUEL So you say that this was a group of IFP people that you went with looking out for these people who fled? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes, after the shooting they came. CHAIRPERSON Yes, they came because they heard the shooting. MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you. You then explained to them what had transpired. Did you find anybody on that day, of those that fled? MR MWELI No. MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER MR SAMUEL Sorry, I meant count 3. Should I proceed now with count 3? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL Okay, now MR MWELI I am requesting that Sibu and his relatives to forgive me for what I did to him and whatever I did I did under influence. I had no intention whatsoever to fight him that way, but now I am back to my senses and I do understand if he may say he does not forgive me, but I will like as well as the Imbali community to forgive me for all the acts I committed. CHAIRPERSON Well at the end of your evidence we will deal with all that. Right now we must move on to count 3. MR SAMUEL Now count 3 deals with an incident that took place on the 30th of November 1988, which occurred in Imbali township, where you tried to kill Joseph Ngodama. Do you know this person? MR MWELI Yes, I do. MR SAMUEL Now, prior to this day, did you hear about his involvement in any acts perpetrated against IFP people? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us what you heard about this gentleman? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes, it is. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI I gathered that from the people of the organisation, or the members of the organisation. From Thu Ngcobo. MR SAMUEL Were you given any instructions relating to what you should do to this person if you ever saw him. MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Who gave you the instructions, what did they tell you, and ...(intervention) MR MWELI Mr Gasela said if ever I come across Ngodama he must be killed. MR SAMUEL When did he tell you this? MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER You did meet him then on the 30th of November, is that so? Did you meet Mr Joseph Doduma on the 30th of November? MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER And what did you do? MR MWELI Are you referring to me or Ndodo? ADV DE JAGER What did you do to him, or what did he do to you, what happened there? MR MWELI Because we wanted Ndodo and I saw him that I tried to shoot him. CHAIRPERSON Where did you see him? MR MWELI At Kwalasinkwasi and Mbelebele. CHAIRPERSON You saw him there, and then what happened? MR MWELI I saw him there, I tried to call him and stop him but he did not stop. I took out my gun and shot him. He then fled. CHAIRPERSON It seems that you thought nothing about pulling out your gun and shooting to kill, is that it? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Were you with anyone on that day, on the 30th of November? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether you succeeded in injuring Ngodoma? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL What was your political objective in having Mr Ngodoma killed? MR MWELI It was all boiling down to the fact that Ndodoma must be eliminated and killed at once because he was implicated in these incidents of being in the IFP houses. He was a person that was highly discussed to an extent that anyone who belonged to IFP did want to eliminate this man. MR SAMUEL When you say he was highly discussed, where was he discussed? MR MWELI He was wanted dead or alive, even where he resided he will call meetings and hold meetings at his house and spread around the UDF ideas. MR SAMUEL Who wanted him dead or alive? MR MWELI I will say Mr Gasela, Beki Ngcobo and Jerome were the ones. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI That was general knowledge even at our meetings we would discuss this matter. MR SAMUEL When you say our meetings, do you mean IFP meetings? MR MWELI What was discussed about Mr Ndodoma? ADV DE JAGER I think that they wanted him dead, as far as I can gather. Was that what you discussed at the meetings, you should kill that man? CHAIRPERSON He said he was wanted dead or alive. MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Before I move on to count 4 of the indictment, are there any questions that the Members want to ask? We now move on to count 4 of the indictment. It is alleged that on the 21st of December 1988, that, for the purposes of convenience, may I deal with counts 4 and 5 together? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON And who else? MR SAMUEL And Martha Buthelezi. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR SAMUEL Are you aware of the incident we are talking about? MR MWELI Yes, I am aware. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us what happened on the 21st of December 1988? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Why did you want to kill them? MR MWELI Those were the people we were fighting against and we wanted them as well dead, because they were the ones who rendered the area of One ungovernable, amongst the UDF members. MR SAMUEL What do you mean when you say they rendered the area ungovernable? MR MWELI They would make sure that they kill IFP houses. This was why I said they rendered the area ungovernable. Then we thought we shall discuss and talk about them and about their death, that they should be killed. MR SAMUEL Did you receive any instructions about killing them CHAIRPERSON I think he said he was just walking along the road, he saw them, they asked him what he was doing there, he pulled out a gun and shot at them. ...(indistinct) there was nobody there to give him instructions at that time. MR SAMUEL Honourable Chairperson, his evidence prior to this was that he did receive instructions, rewards, ammunition, from people. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct),in his general evidence yes, about instructions and rewards. Now is the position different in this case. Are you trying to say that he received specific instructions in this case? He was given specific instructions in this particular count? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Yes, please answer the question. MR MWELI I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Were you given instructions to kill these two people, and if so precisely when were those instructions given to you? MR MWELI I received my instructions from the IFP leaders like Awetta telling us that the people from that area should be killed, like Bapa and the other person were the ones we wanted as well, or formed part of the people we wanted to kill. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. At that very time they will call me and tell me that there are people who are troublesome who are dwelling in such places. CHAIRPERSON I want to know whether you were given instructions in respect of these two people, and when were you told that these two people must be killed? MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER Listen, you should regard those two specific as enemies and you should kill them? MR MWELI It was Mr Awetta. ADV SIGODI When you shot these two people were you acting according to a general instruction to kill the opposition, or were you acting according to a specific instruction to kill them particularly? MR MWELI It was a general instruction. It was not a specific instruction in relation to they two. CHAIRPERSON And the general instruction was given to you was that you should kill who? MR MWELI To kill the UDF members. CHAIRPERSON That meant that at any time, anywhere, if you saw somebody whom you thought was UDF, you must kill him. Is that what it meant MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON I thought just now you said that you were not given specific instructions about them? You said that you were given general instructions to kill UDF people. MR MWELI Yes, it is so. CHAIRPERSON ADV SIGODI Did this general instruction specify the circumstances under which you could kill? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON So even if somebody was not fighting or throwing stones at you, if you came across him and he was a UDF member, you would be justified in killing him MR MWELI Yes, that happened sometimes. Sometimes you will find a situation where a person would be killed and yet he belonged, or she belonged, to no political organisation. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Sorry? CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR SAMUEL Now, earlier on I asked you who were you supposed to go out and kill? CHAIRPERSON From this particular area? MR SAMUEL No, no, as a general question. CHAIRPERSON I thought we were dealing with this particular count now? MR SAMUEL Honourable Chairperson, just arising out of the questions that were asked by you and the Honourable Members as to the general instructions, I thought while the opportunity presented itself, I should clear that up. ADV DE JAGER MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER ...(indistinct) backwards. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Clear it up please, quickly. MR SAMUEL Now, earlier on, when you were asked this question as regards whom you were supposed to kill, which UDF people you were supposed to kill, what answer did you give? MR MWELI I had said the people who were active in fighting and were resisting in joining us, those were the ones we had been given instructions to kill. MR SAMUEL Now, the impression that you may have created here is that you now are saying that you would have killed any UDF person that you came across. Is that your evidence now? CHAIRPERSON He has said so. MR MWELI Please repeat what you said. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI Yes, sometimes that was the case, but as for Baba and the other one were the people we highly wanted and we had to ensure that we kill them. MR SAMUEL Okay, now what forum did you come to know that these people were wanted by the IFP? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL MR MWELI Mncwabe, the councillor. MR SAMUEL Now on that day in question, can you tell us what happened, that is on the 21st of December? MR MWELI ADV SIGODI This Mr Hlaguti that you just mentioned, is it the same as Mandla Buthelezi in count 5? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel can we start at a quarter past nine tomorrow? MS PATEL Yes, that will be in order, thank you Honourable Chairperson. MR SAMUEL Yes, Honourable Chairperson. MS WILLIAMS Yes, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will now adjourn and resume at a quarter past nine tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS