amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-02 PIETERMARITZBURG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53168&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020112_pmb_990212pm.htm ON RESUMPTION: 12TH FEBRUARY 1999 - DAY 9 CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuel, you were busy with the applicant. MR SAMUEL Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You are reminded that you are still under oath. Do you understand? PUMANI DEREK MWELI (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL (Cont) Mr Mweli, we now move on to count 10 of the indictment. INTERPRETER If the attorney could remind the interpreter as to what page is that? MR SAMUEL This is on page 31 of the bundle. INTERPRETER Thank you. MR SAMUEL It is alleged that on the 31st of December 1988, and at or near Imbali township, you attempted to kill Nicholas Mbeki Themba Zulu, an adult male. Do you want to tell us what happened on that day? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Proceed. MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER Who was the person coming and telling you there were comrades outside? MR MWELI Dladla Luthuli came into the house. After some time I heard some noise outside, some screaming sort of noise outside, and I went outside with other, together with the IFP colleagues, we went outside. MR SAMUEL Can you name them? MR MWELI Yes, the ones that I perfectly remember. The one who was there was Umlumi Siawete, King Manyoni. CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that name please. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SAMUEL The first person you said was who? MR MWELI Lungisi Awette. MR SAMUEL Was he any, or is he in any way related to the other Awette that you mentioned? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL How is he related? MR MWELI How I know it, they used to call him Awette because their aunt was Mrs Beatrice Awette. I think they were related to, she was related to his mother, like ...(indistinct) as well used to call themselves Awette, or use the surname of Awette, so I suppose there was some kind of relationship. MR SAMUEL So the three of you then went outside. Can you continue with what happened thereafter. MR MWELI And the other fourth one was Ndlandala Luthuli. As well as Sandile Mbele. Those are the ones I remember. MR SAMUEL Proceed. MR MWELI We got out of the Madlala house to the main road, facing, the road was facing the other road where Jeremiah and Vuzi were injured. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. We got outside to the road and we found other comrades outside there and they were already stoning us. I had a firearm with me in the company of those who were with me inside. I started shooting many times and some fled, those who were residing at Matlwana. MR SAMUEL Was this the person mentioned in count 9 of which you were acquitted, that is Mbuso Jeremiah Nene? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Who stabbed this youngster? MR MWELI Ulumi Siawete is the one together with other fellow IFP members who stabbed him, but Ulumi was the main one. MR SAMUEL The deceased in count 10, who shot him? CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about ...(indistinct) there was a deceased in count 9 that was stabbed to death, for which he was acquitted. MR SAMUEL The person in count 10, Mr Thulu was not killed, but he was shot at. Can you tell us who shot at him? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL When you fired these shots did you attempt to kill these people? MR MWELI Yes, I will say so, because a gun when you shoot it you kill, so by so doing I may say I did intend to kill. MR SAMUEL Did you leave the area after the incident, the place where you were? MR MWELI Yes, we fled, we went to our respective homes. MR SAMUEL Before I proceed to the next count, Honourable Members, do any of you have any questions at this point? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. ADV SIGODI Can I just ask you, were you the only person having a firearm? CHAIRPERSON He said so, yes. MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Go ahead. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON When you say we were at the house, I would be pleased if you said I was at the house. Do you understand? You said you were alone. So you were at the house of Mr Thu. Carry on from there. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Your counsel will then lead your evidence in that regard, because ... MR SAMUEL MR MWELI Ngcobo. MR SAMUEL Who else was present at the house? MR MWELI It was myself, Beki Ngcobo and Mr Gasela. MR SAMUEL What was discussed at the house that is of importance to this hearing? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI What we were discussing about is that he will go and fetch a group of comrades from far away to Stage Two to attack IFP members and houses. In the end we will not even be able to associate as to who was attacking and behind this ordeal. CHAIRPERSON Now when you say he would fetch comrades from far away, who told you that he fetched comrades from far away? MR MWELI I heard from Mr Thu and from Mr Gasela as well. CHAIRPERSON When did he fetch people? MR MWELI There was ...(indistinct). Said that usually happened during week-ends, and each time we find out there was a person who was attacked it will be realised the people who attacked him or her were not from around, where are known people. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR SAMUEL So what action did this discussion decide to take against Mr Sosibo? MR MWELI The outcome of that meeting was boiled down to the fact that he has to be killed. MR SAMUEL And who was given the responsibility of killing Mr Sosibo? MR MWELI Mr Gaselo and Beki Ngcobo and Thu Ngcobo. ADV SIGODI What about them? MR MWELI Those are the ones who issued the orders that Sosibo should be killed. ADV SIGODI Yes, but the question was who was supposed to kill him? MR MWELI Myself, I was supposed to do that. ADV SIGODI So they gave the order to you to kill him? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Did you carry out that order? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us how you went about killing Mr Sosibo? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Were you alone at this stage? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL May I proceed to the next count, Honourable Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI On that particular day I was looking for Mpumelelo Sithole. It was said that I was supposed to kill him. CHAIRPERSON Can you please stop. I would like the name to be spelled. You were looking for? What is the name of the person, and spell it? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON The name of the man in count 15? Yes, I see, thank you. MR MWELI Mpumelelo Sithole. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you were looking for Mpumelelo Sithole. Where? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Now who did you shoot? Did you shoot the man who was standing with Shezi, or did you shoot Shezi? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL When did you discover that you shot the wrong person? MR MWELI That I discovered the following day when I was informed by Jerome that the person killed was not the one who we were looking for, in other words I have killed a wrong person. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Could we pause there? Do I understand when you say that you learned that you killed the wrong person, that there was no intention whatsoever to kill Shezi? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes, I did not know him. ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI I did not know him. That I discovered recently. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI It was in the morning, on that day, the 13th of January. We were taking, we were accompanying Mr Awette to town. CHAIRPERSON Let me just understand. When you say we, do you mean you, or you and others? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL When you say him, who were you accompanying? MR MWELI Mr Awette. MR SAMUEL Proceed. ADV DE JAGER I'm not sure, were you four people in the car, or three? MR MWELI We were four. ADV DE JAGER Mr Awette Senior, and his son, and the two of you, Beki Zulu and yourself? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Proceed. MR MWELI As we were driving past the garage, filling station that is, the car was shot as we were on our way to town. MR SAMUEL You say the car was shot. You mean somebody shot at the car? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL That you were travelling in? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Go ahead. MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Before you proceed. Did you see who shot at the motor vehicle that you were travelling in? MR MWELI I did not see the person who shot at the car. CHAIRPERSON Just to get my notes complete, you drove into town, you stopped, Mr Awette got out, is that right? INTERPRETER Please repeat. CHAIRPERSON You went into town, you stopped the car, Mr Awette got out. Is that right? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then what happened? MR MWELI We went back to Imbali. We drove past the same filling station. CHAIRPERSON Did you go back to Imbali without Mr Awette? MR MWELI Yes. We left him in town. CHAIRPERSON What town are we talking about when he says drove into town? MR MWELI Right here in Pietermaritzburg. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now carry on. What happened then? MR MWELI We drove past the same filling station or garage, the car was not shot at that time, but people shouted. The people insulted at us at the garage as we were driving past, but it was not shot this time around. CHAIRPERSON The people at the garage were shouting at you? MR MWELI Yes, people nearby the garage. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MWELI I went to get my firearm and I took, and I went to call Ndlandla, Ndlandla Luthuli, that is. I went to get him along. CHAIRPERSON When the people near the garage shouted at you. At that stage you were in the car. Is that right? MR MWELI Yes that is right. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON I see, so where did you go to from the garage? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MWELI He asked as to where we were going. I told him we were going to the filling station, or the garage, there is something we have to sort out there. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MWELI Just as we were about to arrive at the filling station or the garage at the corner of Mdubu and Mthombothi. ADV DE JAGER Were you walking now? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the streets, the corner of? The name of the streets, what were they? MR MWELI Corner of Mdubu. CHAIRPERSON Spell that please. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Spell that. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. So what happened near the corner of these two roads? MR MWELI I found Thoza Ndlele together with Linda Moloi and I shot them. CHAIRPERSON Just hold on. Yes, do carry on. MR SAMUEL Why did you shoot these two people? MR MWELI It was because they were UDF members and the fact that they were stoning us when we were driving past them. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI I may have forgotten that, so to speak. Those were not the ones exactly who shot at us. Those were the boys near the garage as Mr Awette did say that we have to assault those boys, but then again, I did not see exactly as to who. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI When we were going there. We used to drive into town. The car was not stoned, or they did not throw stones. Even when we were driving, returning, they did not. When we were driving back the car was not stoned it was not shot, but they were shocked when we were coming back from town. I would like to rectify that. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Just to proceed on this point before I move to the next one. When he referred to those boys, was he referred to a particular group of boys who you identified, or was he referring to the boys that you should identify and take action against? CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI I would like to apologise in saying they threw stones at the car. They did not throw any stones, but they insulted at us, shouting and insulting at us. MR SAMUEL Okay, you did tell us that, that on your return they insulted you. When you say they insulted you, what were they saying? MR MWELI When we were coming back they were shouting insulting and saying ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The interpreter does not know what he means by the word he has just uttered. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER Telegwini. They shouted and say go you telegwinis. MR SAMUEL Okay you speak English very well Mr Mweli, can you tell us what that word means to you? MR MWELI They mean you go, the telegwini word is an insult. At the time when you use that word you will be instigating a fight, that is an insult. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Telegwini means people who do evil actions, is that what it means? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now precisely where was this. Where did this take place when you were insulted? MR MWELI We were driving past the garage going toward Fumulazi. CHAIRPERSON You were returning to Imbali? You were returning home at that time? MR MWELI Yes, that's true. CHAIRPERSON So when these words were uttered, you didn't stop, you carried on? MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER You didn't recognise the people that were shooting at the vehicle, is that correct? MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER It's not quite clear to me, recognise in the sense of seeing them and being able to identify them, or didn't you see anybody at all, you only heard the shots? MR MWELI Yes we did not see the people who were insulting and those who shot. ADV DE JAGER So you heard shouts, and they were insulting you, but you didn't see them either. They were hidden. You couldn't see them? MR MWELI Yes. No, I would say they were not people from that area. ADV DE JAGER You could hear them, but could you see people standing there, or couldn't you see anybody, as far as the insults are concerned? CHAIRPERSON You've told us you couldn't see the people who were insulting you. Is that right? MR MWELI There were people there, but those who insulted us we did not see. But there were people standing around. CHAIRPERSON That's got nothing to do with what we're talking about. We're concerned with the people who insulted you, not the public who were there. ADV DE JAGER Now you came back and you saw two people standing there, Moloi and Ndlela, the two deceased? MR MWELI Yes. ADV DE JAGER Why did you shoot them? MR MWELI It was because we were shot. Now we were retaliating. We were sending a message that people should know and be aware of the fact that when we are attacked we'll attack back. When we are being shot we will shoot back as well. ADV DE JAGER But they could have been innocent passers-by standing there. You don't know whether they fired shots, or whether they insulted, or whether they were even part of the groups doing that. MR MWELI Yes, we were doing this indiscriminately. We were sending a message across. CHAIRPERSON When you say we, you mean you, because you were the one that shot, isn't that so? MR MWELI Yes, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You shot indiscriminately because you wanted to send a message. MR MWELI Each time we will be attacked we will retaliate as well. CHAIRPERSON Yes but I'm not talking about being attacked. You were not attacked. Then you shot indiscriminately, in other words, you didn't care who you shot, you just shot because you felt like shooting. MR MWELI Yes we did that because we were shot before by the UDF members. CHAIRPERSON No I'm talking about these two people. They may have had nothing to do with it. You came there, you saw two people, because you were angry at having been sworn at, you took out your gun and killed them. MR MWELI Yes, because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I want to get that down. Yes, what were you going to say, you killed them because? MR MWELI We shot because we were, they had just shot at just shot at us less than an hour. CHAIRPERSON They didn't shoot at you, the two people you killed, they didn't shoot at you. When you say they shot. MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON They shot, you don't know who it was that shot. MR MWELI We were not certain as to whether they were the ones who shot at us but we took it upon ourselves to shoot them because we were shot earlier on. CHAIRPERSON Now don't say we took it upon ourselves, say I took it upon myself, isn't that so? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV SIGODI Did you know the people you shot at? MR MWELI Yes, I knew them. CHAIRPERSON He didn't. He said that he didn't know who shot at them. ADV SIGODI No, no, no, did he know the people that he shot? ADV DE JAGER Did you know the deceased? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Which political party did they belong to. MR MWELI They were UDF members. CHAIRPERSON Did you ask them whether they were UDF members? MR MWELI No I did not ask them. I knew so. CHAIRPERSON You knew everybody in the area, that everybody was either UDF or ANC? MR MWELI No. CHAIRPERSON At any rate your evidence is that you shot indiscriminately, and those were your words. MR MWELI Not because we did not care about that, but the fact was we were shot at first, so we were shooting back. We did not know as to who did that, but we were shooting back so we can send this message across that we cannot sit back and relax when we're being attacked or shot at for that matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR SAMUEL Now you told us that you were shot at as you passed the garage? The first trip that you went, when Mr Awette was in the motor vehicle, is that correct? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Now how far is this garage from the one where you were insulted? MR MWELI Very close. When we talk about the garage it was not exactly where the garage was located, but we would be referring to the whole area of One Pendloga, that is and say it's next to the garage, that's how we used to refer to it. MR SAMUEL So are you saying then that you were shot at and insulted at the same area? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL And where were these two youngsters killed, in relation to that area that you just mentioned? MR MWELI Close to where we were shot. MR SAMUEL Earlier on you mentioned Mr Awette said those boys must be assaulted. You told us you didn't see who shot at you. How did Mr Awette come to the conclusion that it was some boys who shot at you? CHAIRPERSON You know he wouldn't know who it is. He makes a general statement that the boys that fired the shot should be assaulted. Isn't that what he was trying to say? MR SAMUEL His words are those boys. I think he was referring. CHAIRPERSON He didn't know, nobody knew who shot, so when he said those boys he couldn't know who he was talking about. MR SAMUEL He probably didn't know specifically, but if I'm, just, I don't want to lead him onto my answer Honourable Chairperson, because there may be another interpretation, but I don't want to put words into his mouth because he's listening to what I'm saying to you. Thank you. Now how was Mr, who was Mr Awette talking to when, talking about when he said those boys must be assaulted? MR MWELI He was talking to me and Beki Zulu. People who were in the car. But he directed that to me. CHAIRPERSON Yes, who was he talking about, when he said those boys? MR MWELI He was talking about the boys from One, the garage were UDF members. MR SAMUEL The boys from, you're talking about Stage One, who're UDF members, near the garage. That's your evidence? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Did boys gather near the garage, near Stage One? CHAIRPERSON On that day? MR SAMUEL Generally. CHAIRPERSON If it's a garage people would gather in and around a garage? MR SAMUEL Honourable Chairperson in the townships groups of people tend to hang out near shops and garages, etc., and it's my experience that people have their favourite hang outs around certain businesses or enterprises or entertainment centres. CHAIRPERSON That's a common experience, I agree with you. MR SAMUEL And the point that I'm making is that Mr Awette was specific in saying those boys. He must have given, been talking about people specifically. CHAIRPERSON He wasn't talking about anybody specific. He merely said those boys should be assaulted because somebody from that area shot at their car. Nobody saw who it was. And you can't take it any further than that. He didn't know who shot at them either. MR SAMUEL That is correct Honourable Chairperson, but what I'm saying is he didn't say to the kids find out who shot at me and ...(intervention) Yes but he ...(indistinct) with a specific instruction those boys must be assaulted. CHAIRPERSON Specific only in the sense that they should be shot. There was nothing more specific than that. Who was he specific about? MR SAMUEL That's what I'm trying to establish, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How can you establish, because they don't know who it was. MR SAMUEL The point that I'm making is that obviously when the instruction was given he was referring to someone and this witness must tell us what those words mean, those boys. He could have been talking about all the boys in the area, he could have been talking about a specific group of boys who hung out near the garage. CHAIRPERSON He didn't ask Mr Awette when he said those boys, did you mean all those boys or some of them. These are general words. As a result of being shot at Awette tells him those boys should be assaulted. He doesn't say those boys should be shot and killed, they should be assaulted. MR SAMUEL I take the Honourable Chairperson's point. The situation here is that the applicant is reciting events that took place over, almost a decade ago. He's not going to give evidence of every detail that one can conclude without exploring these possibilities that in fact these instructions were general or specific, and my attempt Honourable Chairperson is to try and establish from him what were those instructions. How he interpreted the instructions. Unless I'm given an opportunity to explore that the Committee may come to the, perhaps the right or perhaps the wrong conclusion. ADV DE JAGER Can I perhaps try to assist here? At that garage, would IFP members also take in petrol there, and visit the garage? MR MWELI No. ADV DE JAGER Why not? MR MWELI They will be shot each time they get there, so they will not even go there. ADV DE JAGER Why was? Who was the owner of the garage? MR MWELI Mr Njala. ADV DE JAGER Was he an IFP member, or to which party did he belong? MR MWELI I did not know as to which party he affiliated to, but we will not go to his garage to fill up our cars because people around there, or the boys around the garage, would shoot at us. Not the petrol attendants, but the people around. In the Kombis they would get people out and kill them if our Kombis are seen nearby. ADV SIGODI Did any of the shots fired hit your car? CHAIRPERSON A shot was fired. ADV SIGODI Was it one shot? CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV SIGODI Did the shot that was fired hit your car? MR MWELI It hit under the car, in front. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please carry on. MR SAMUEL Thank you. Just to go back to the point. When Mr Awette said those boys, who did you think he was referring to? MR MWELI I knew that he was referring to the boys from Penduka, near the garage. ADV DE JAGER And to which party did those boys belong? Or did they belong to different parties? CHAIRPERSON ..(indistinct) the area. MR MWELI That area was ANC and UDF at the time. Members who were IFP left that area. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. With your permission I'll move onto count 15. ADV DE JAGER The other aspect, I don't know whether you wanted to canvass it, about the instruction to assault, which the Honourable Chairperson put to you, and what indeed happened. MR SAMUEL Thank you for the guidance Honourable member. This is an important point. You were instructed by Mr Awette to assault these people who shot at the motor vehicle, but you went beyond that, you went and killed these people. Can you tell us why? MR MWELI He didn't want to call a spade a spade when he said those boys needs to be assaulted he actually meant, he means to be killed. We know that. It wasn't a usual thing that he will say go kill, he will usually say go assault someone, but what he really means is to kill that person. ADV SIGODI When you shot these two people, do you know where you shot them, on their bodies, which part of their bodies? MR MWELI Head and chest. ADV SIGODI Were you far away when you were shooting, or were you close by? MR MWELI I started shooting at them as I was coming closer to them. I wasn't standing in one position. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you're moving onto count 15. MR SAMUEL Thank you. It's alleged that on the 14th of January 1989 at Imbali, you attempted to kill Nkolelo Sithole. Can you tell us, firstly is this the Nkolelo Sithole that you mentioned in your evidence earlier? MR MWELI That's correct. MR SAMUEL Who did you receive instructions from to kill him MR MWELI Mr Jerome Mncwabe. MR SAMUEL Why did Mr Mncwabe want Mr Sithole dead? MR MWELI He was a troublesome person. He used to gather UDF members and also he used to provide UDF members with weapons. This is what Mr Jerome said to us, so we looked for Ubumi for a long time before we could find him. One day Mr Jerome told me that it was difficult for us to get hold of Ubumi but on Saturday he usually goes, usually every Saturday morning he goes and buy bread, therefore it was going to be easy for us to wait for him on Saturday. MR SAMUEL On the 14th of January 1989 what happened? MR MWELI As I've already mentioned, he was one person we looked for him for a long time, we wanted to kill him. He was a member of UDF and he was good in gather UDF members together and to hold meetings. MR SAMUEL You told us that. Tell us what happened on the 14th of January 1989. MR MWELI In the morning - I slept at Beki Ngcobo's place the previous night, and then in the morning Jerome came to fetch me and I went to fetch Ndlandlaza and we went and waited for Mpumelelo since we were given the information that he would go to fetch the bread. And we were waiting for him there. CHAIRPERSON Who else accompanied you. You mentioned a name. I haven't been able to take down your evidence, you talk too fast. You left Beki Ngcobo's house. Jerome fetched you this morning and so you left. With who did you leave? MR MWELI We first went to Ndlanlaza's house. I was with Mr Jerome in Jerome's car. ADV DE JAGER Ndladlana is that Mr Luthuli too? MR MWELI Yes, it's Ndlandla Luthuli. MR SAMUEL When you say you were in Jerome's car, you're talking about Mr Jerome Mncwabe. MR MWELI Mncwabe. MR SAMUEL So who was with you? MR SAMUEL Ndlandla Luthuli and Mr Jerome. Mr Jerome dropped us at the corner. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR MWELI He left us at Manaye's corner. CHAIRPERSON Spell that please. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes, so that's where you were dropped. What happened then? MR MWELI Ndlandla and myself proceed towards Mpumi's place. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Proceed. MR MWELI We waited there. We didn't go to his house but we waited somewhere closer to his house. As he was coming out. MR SAMUEL Go ahead. MR MWELI He drove the car and as he was approaching the gate I started shooting at him. MR SAMUEL Did you want to kill him? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Now proceed to counts 17, 18 and 19. It's alleged that all these offences took place on the 16th of January 1989 at Imbali, where you killed Bongani Jeremiah Sithebe, a 13 year old male, Sibusiso Frank Carrington Nduli, an adult male was killed, you killed Siphiwe Patrick Majosi, an 11 year old male, and you killed Beki Zazi Alpheus Ngwala, an adult male. ADV SIGODI Is he also applying for amnesty in respect of count 16, because I see that, I don't know if this is accurate but he was found not guilty on count number 16. MR SAMUEL Yes he was found not guilty. ADV SIGODI I thought you mentioned that. You see you mentioned Bongani Jeremiah Sithebe. MR SAMUEL Sorry, it's count 17, 18 and 19. CHAIRPERSON Nduli, Majosi and Ngwala? MR SAMUEL That's correct, Sir. Okay you were initially charged with the death of four people on that day, and you were found not guilty in relation to one of them, and is it correct that you are applying for amnesty in respect of the deaths of the other 3 people, is that correct? MR MWELI That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuel was this one incident, or are these three separate incidents? MR SAMUEL It was one incident, one killing spree. Can you tell us firstly, did you kill these people? MR MWELI Yes, I did. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us why you killed them? MR MWELI Yes. ...(no English interpretation). CHAIRPERSON We can't hear the translation. MR MWELI After I've tried. ADV DE JAGER We couldn't hear. Could you repeat the translation please. CHAIRPERSON Right from the beginning. MR MWELI After I've tried to kill Mpumelelo Sithole when I failed I went back to Mr Jerome and then I told him, or I reported to him about the meeting. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MWELI When I told him he was surprised why I failed to kill Mpumelelo. He asked me if I was scared, and I told him no. He gave me a box full of cartridges, and then he told me that I was supposed to do something major, something terrible that will scare the people and people from One Section will decide to leave. MR SAMUEL Why did he want people from that Section to leave? MR MWELI He wanted the area to be IFP. Imbali as a whole to be IFP stronghold. MR SAMUEL What's this terrible thing that he wanted you to do? MR MWELI He said I must go to One Section, whatever I meet there I must kill it. CHAIRPERSON Please interpret properly. Did he say kill it? INTERPRETER Yes, kill it. CHAIRPERSON Whatever he meets he must kill it? INTERPRETER Yes, he said whatever, it doesn't have to be a human being, even cats and dogs. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Please proceed. MR MWELI And he told me I mustn't be scared because these people won't do anything to me and if you were going to be successful the whole of KwaZulu Natal were going to be ruled by IFP, even if I would go to prison I was going to be released because the IFP had connections with the police and they're just assisting. I mustn't be scared. CHAIRPERSON I'd like to take down, you say that even if you were convicted, did he say convicted? INTERPRETER No, arrested. CHAIRPERSON Even if I were arrested. Yes, please carry on from there. Even if you were arrested, then what? MR MWELI He said even if I was arrested I wasn't going to stay in prison. ADV SIGODI Why? MR MWELI Because they had connections with the police, and also if Inkatha were going to win we were not going to experience problems. CHAIRPERSON If we are successful Natal would be ruled by the IFP? Even if you were arrested you would not be going to stay in prison as they had connections with the police, is that what he said? MR MWELI That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Did he say anything else? MR MWELI This is what he said, and then he gave me a muti to use so that when I arrive in One Section I'm not, I wasn't going to be scared. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MWELI I used that muti for a day, and then the following day, at night, I went to fetch Ndlandlazi, Kosi Ndlandlazi was brave and I used to trust Ndlandlazi than the rest of other members. I went and fetch him. I would tell Ndlandlazi some of the things, but some I wouldn't tell him, but he knew anyway some of the things. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MWELI We went to One Section near the garage, that's where we were going to do this, because we had everything. CHAIRPERSON One Section, that's Section One? INTERPRETER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You said you went to Section One and then what happened? Near the garage? MR MWELI I don't remember the name of the street we first went, but we met a certain boy. ADV DE JAGER Sorry was that in daytime, night? MR MWELI At night. CHAIRPERSON I understand. You must have there, with Ndlandlazi. So you went near the garage, and then? You went near the garage and you don't know the name of the road? MR MWELI Yes, I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MWELI I met Bongani. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you met Bongani. MR MWELI I shot him. ADV DE JAGER Is that the person referred to in count 16 where you were found not guilty? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON This is Bongani Sithebe? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON So what did you do when you met him? MR MWELI I shot him. ADV SIGODI Did you know him? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON He was a child who was only 13 years old. MR MWELI Yes, he was my schoolmate. CHAIRPERSON What did you do next? MR MWELI We proceeded on that street, the same street. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MWELI We met Frank, I think we met Frank Ndluli afterwards. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MWELI I also shot him and I left him there as well. ADV SIGODI Was Ndladla Nthuli also armed? MR MWELI ...(no English interpretation) ADV SIGODI On this particular day did he have a firearm? MR MWELI ADV SIGODI So you were the only person shooting. MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was Frank also a schoolmate of yours? MR MWELI No. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MWELI We proceeded on that street, we passed the garage, and then I met Patrick, together with Beki Zazi Kujai. Then also I shot them. ADV SIGODI Did you also know them? MR MWELI I only knew Alpheus Gwala. ADV SIGODI How were you choosing your targets? MR MWELI ADV SIGODI MR MWELI One thing I knew, and everyone knew this, is that in that area, Section One, there were no IFP members. They were all ANC or UDF. ADV SIGODI These people you were shooting in the street, were you not? INTERPRETER Would you please repeat your question. These people he was shooting on the street were? CHAIRPERSON What did you say? ADV SIGODI I asked, he was shooting those people in the street, they were just walking in the street? MR MWELI ADV SIGODI Did it not occur to you that some of them may be IFP people, even though its an ANC dominated area? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Now before you go any further, the names you have given seem to differ from the names in the indictment, or am I wrong, Mr Samuel? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Yes, if that would clear it up. He said he met Frank Ntluli. Now who is Frank Ntluli. MR SAMUEL Frank Carrington Ndluli on count 17, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then he met Patrick and ...(indistinct) MR SAMUEL Now Patrick is Siphiwe Patrick Majosi in count 18. And Beki Zazi is the Beki Zazi Alpheus Gwala in count 19. After you killed these people, did you leave the area? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Did you report to anyone about the killings? MR MWELI I told Mr Awette. MR SAMUEL What was his response? MR MWELI He game me muti to go take a bath with, to use it to bath. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). MR SAMUEL MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI MR SAMUEL You told us that Mr Mncwabe told you to go and do something big and that he wanted the people in that area, the UDF people, to leave Imbali. Did you know of other communities that left the area as refugees and fled from where they lived? MR MWELI Yes, I do. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us about these areas that you know of? MR MWELI In my area the Mtehembu family left there because they were not IFP and they went to stay somewhere. We also left Two Section, or Section Two, and we went to stay with IFP. CHAIRPERSON There may be people who might have left one area and gone to another area simply because they did not want to be involved in the violence. Is that not so? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL That is correct Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will you be much longer? MR SAMUEL Probably about another fifteen minutes or so. CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL Will everyone please rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION PUMANI DEREK MWELI (s.u.o.) MR SAMUEL Mr Mweli when did you learn to use a firearm? MR MWELI I was taught by Jerome. MR SAMUEL Where did you learn to use a firearm? MR MWELI He taught me up the hill near Stage ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON The question was when? MR SAMUEL MR MWELI In 1987. MR SAMUEL Was this before or after you joined the ANC? MR MWELI After I was IFP member. MR SAMUEL And you were telling us that Mr Mncwabe took you up the hill. And where did he teach you to use a firearm? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Was it up a hill? CHAIRPERSON Does it matter very much? Is there something material is going to turn on it? MR SAMUEL Just to set the background in terms of how he was trained. Now, when you were taught how to use a firearm, why was it necessary for Mr Mncwabe to teach you how to use a firearm? You were fourteen years old at that stage, or thirteen years old. MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Why was it necessary for a thirteen year old to learn to use a firearm? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL To do what? MR MWELI So we could be in a better position of protecting Imbali township from the attackers. MR SAMUEL MR MWELI MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER Perhaps you could read the contents into the record. CHAIRPERSON Is this the only copy? MR SAMUEL That is correct, Honourable Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Will you read it into the record please. MR SAMUEL From whom did you receive this letter? MR MWELI From Pietermaritzburg prison. MR SAMUEL For he record, it reads "Pietermaritzburg male prison, Private Bag X9022, Pmburg 3200. 10th of February 1999. Truth and Reconciliation Commission, KwaZulu Natal Region, The Chairman, To Whom It May Concern, Yours faithfully, E.M. Mkhize, Unit Manager" May I hand this up, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON This will be handed in as Exhibit A. ADV DE JAGER MR SAMUEL So as I was saying to you, it may be suggested that you were purely a criminal. Are there opportunities in prison for you to join criminals, and the criminal gangs? MR MWELI We will meet, endeavour to facilitate meetings to meet with the ANC members to create peace and form good relationship with the two parties. Even the complainant in Nduduma is aware and fully aware of this as he was coming from ANC and I will be coming from IFP to create peace and good relationship between the two, in prison. MR SAMUEL Now, just to take you a little back. You were arrested initially by, was it a police officer Meyer? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL How did it come about that police officer Meyer arrested you? ADV DE JAGER Was that on the 27th of January 1989? MR MWELI Lieutenant Meyer, I was told by Mr Awette that the police are looking for me, and it will only be appropriate for me to take myself to them. So that I would be fully supported by them. They will secure the services of legal representatives for me and whatever I encounter as a problem I should relay or convey that to them, they will be there for me. MR SAMUEL Was a firearm handed over to Lieutenant Meyer as well? MR MWELI Yes, the firearm I was using was a old one, seven point six five, from Mr Awette. ADV SIGODI The question is, was it handed over to the police? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Now, whilst you were in prison, the charges with withdrawn against you, is that correct? MR MWELI Yes, they were withdrawn. MR SAMUEL What happened to you thereafter? MR MWELI I was put under the state of emergency, and Lieutenant ...(indistinct), at the time it was ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER He was detained under the state of emergency. MR MWELI I was put under the state of emergency and detained, thirty days, for thirty days that is. CHAIRPERSON When were the charges withdrawn against you? MR MWELI After I appeared at the Court. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I want to know when that was. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR SAMUEL Were you then subsequently recharged, convicted and sentenced? MR MWELI Yes, I was recharged, and I was convicted after a year. From that time until 1999 I have never committed any crime in prison, ever since my stay there. MR SAMUEL Now, just one aspect I want you to tell us a little bit more about, and that is that some of the people you said you killed, because they were fighting you. Some of the people you killed surely because they were members of the UDF or ANC as you put it. Why, what went through your mind when you killed people who just belonged to different political organisations? How did you view them? MR MWELI What I will say is there was this war in Imbali. There was this rife violence between us blacks, and at the time when we would fight, or when we were fighting, shooting at each other, or the one group shooting at the other, there would also be other times where sometimes there will be those fights that were happening unexpected, or take place unexpected or unplanned, and I think some of the people who are here and who will testify to this truth will agree with me that this did happen or occurred in this area in various ways and means. MR SAMUEL Now, over the break, the interval, you introduced me to Ndlaldla Luthuli, is that correct? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL And I asked him to come and testify on your behalf, in your presence, is that correct? MR MWELI I have no problem with that. It rests upon him if he does want to come out. MR SAMUEL What was his response? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Purely to, a lot of what he says is going to go uncorroborated before this Commission, and there is a reason why he is not calling those witnesses, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER Is Mr Luthuli not prepared to give evidence? MR SAMUEL No, he is not prepared to give evidence. He has not applied for any amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Now, after the killing of the four people, did you go into hiding at some stage? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL Where were you in hiding? MR MWELI MR SAMUEL Now who is Mr Ntombela? CHAIRPERSON Who is we? The we you are talking about. MR SAMUEL Can you tell us who, when you say we, who are you referring to? MR MWELI Together with Ndladla Luthuli. MR SAMUEL Now who is Mr Ntombela? MR MWELI He is a member of Parliament and an IFP leader here in Natal Midlands. CHAIRPERSON Is he a member of the KwaZulu Natal Parliament, or the national Parliament? MR SAMUEL MR MWELI In KwaZulu Natal. MP. Member of KwaZulu Natal. MR SAMUEL You have done many, many, many bad things, especially to the people, some of whom are seated out there, from Imbali. Do you want to say anything to them? MR MWELI Yes. MR SAMUEL You may take this opportunity. MR MWELI What I will say, the first of all I would like to apologise and ask for forgiveness to all friends and parents of the victims, or the ones that I killed, and I am pleading for forgiveness from the community of Imbali for all the atrocities I committed in the area. It was not because of any personal malice whatsoever, but I was coerced by the situation that prevailed at the time, politically so to speak. MR SAMUEL NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS CHAIRPERSON The people who have been disturbed by the evidence, will you please leave the hall so that the work can carry on. Can we carry on? ADV DE JAGER Is there anything further Mr Samuel? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Mr Mweli before I deal with the actual substance of your application, I want to concentrate on certain aspects relating to your application. I see that you made two applications, and I refer to the first application which is from pages 2 to 8 in the bundle, and the second application which is from pages 9 to 18 of the bundle. Can you tell me why you saw fit to make two applications? MR MWELI The reason behind this, the other one, I was not the one who filled it, and it took so long before I heard from the offices, so I thought I should fill the second one, because the first one, the people who filled it and wrote everything in it, were IFP members. Now the second one, I was the one. I was thinking the first one might have not reached the office, since I did not get any response at the time, so I felt maybe I should forward the second application. MR WILLS I also note that there are some material differences between the first application and the second application. Are you aware of that? I will be going through those. CHAIRPERSON They are material? And bearing in mind that one was filled out for him by somebody else? ADV DE JAGER As far as the explanation is concerned for the second application, you could perhaps also look at the letter written on page 26. MR WILLS MR MWELI This is why I mentioned earlier on that the other application was Mr Hlela who filled it, who came at Waterval and were the ones who filled up our application forms. By seeing delay of any response I sort of thought I should fill the other form. Labouring under the impression that the other form could have not reached the office in the first place I felt and deemed it fit to fill the second one. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Which appears on what page, the second one? MR WILLS 23, Mr Chairperson. MR MWELI This is why I mentioned to you Mr Wills that these applications are different. The other one I did not fill, the other one I did fill. On the 10th of November 1997 I filled myself this application. The other one were the leaders that filled them on our behalf. MR WILLS Are you saying that you were influenced by the leaders to not put the correct information down in the first application? Because I see that you signed the first application before a Commissioner of Oaths. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI No, the copy I have is the 10th of November copy. CHAIRPERSON Let him have a copy of the form please. MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS I want to know did anybody from the IFP come and tell you, in prison, not to divulge the names of the persons who gave you the orders? MR MWELI Yes. MR WILLS And who was that person, or persons? MR MWELI The first one Mr Ed Tillet who came to Waterval. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell it? What is the name again? MR MWELI Ed Tillet. MR WILLS MR MWELI And Mr Hlengo, who was a captain. CHAIRPERSON Who was what? MR MWELI He was a captain. CHAIRPERSON In the police force? MR MWELI Yes. MR WILLS Was there anybody else? MR MWELI And Mr Awette and Jerome. MR WILLS Now. CHAIRPERSON Were all these people together when they told you not to disclose the identity of those who ordered you? Or did they come to you separately? MR MWELI They came separately. People who used to usually come to me was Mr Hlengwa and Nicky Britz. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON When did Awette and Jerome come to you? MR MWELI I was still in Maritzburg. This was before I was sentenced, when I was still awaiting trial. CHAIRPERSON Before your trial had started? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was it suggested to you that in your trial you must not disclose the names of these people? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON And Awette and Jerome also spoke to you, that is before your trial started? MR MWELI Yes, those were the ones who talked to me before the trial started. Mr Hlengwa only said so after I was sentenced. This is when we were applying for amnesty to the TRC. ADV SIGODI Did Mr Hlengwa address you as a group of IFP people, or did he come to you specifically? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR WILLS I see the first application was filled in in May 1997, sorry in April 1997, on the 11th April. And the second application was filled in just over a month later in May 1997, is that correct? MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR WILLS Can I assume, can I ignore the first application as being a lot of rubbish? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS MR MWELI I would like you to repeat the question to me. ADV DE JAGER MR WILLS ADV SIGODI But Mr Wills can we not agree that, I mean, this person was not assisted by legal representative. All these applications are never drawn up meticulously. What this fight could actually mean is the tension between the UDF and the IFP and that is not disputed at this, is it your case that there was no tension between the IFP and the UDF? Is it really material? I mean the way it has been phrased, does it make any difference as to what he has said here today? CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills I note the point that you are trying to make. How significant it is is another matter, we will have to decide at a later. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS "It is clear from the general plan that the majority of the incidents giving rise to these charges occurred in areas of Imbali reputed to be UDF areas or UDF strongholds." CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS My question is, is that when you say you were defending, in your first application, effectively that is incorrect in that you were going out of your area to attack the UDF people in their area, is that correct? MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS And essentially an IFP official came to you and he filled out the application and you just signed it. Is that right? MR MWELI MR WILLS And that IFP official was Captain Hlengwa and Mr Tillet. MR MWELI Yes, Captain Hlengwa. Captain Hlengwa is the one who filled the application. MR WILLS MR MWELI Are you referring to case number one? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS ADV DE JAGER MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Get down to what you think should be the real grounds for opposing the application. MR WILLS Mr Mweli, regarding count 1. You indicated in your evidence in chief, that essentially the reason why you shot Sibusiso Sibisi was that because he was approaching you together with several other person with spears and you felt threatened, and you made out as if you were defending yourself. Do you recall that? MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS So are you saying that had they not come for you, had they not come in your direction with spears, you would not have shot them? MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI So she confirmed to the Court that you had assaulted her. Was she lying to the Court? MR MWELI I would say she was lying, because after that we were not in good terms, after Sibu got injured we were not in good terms, she even left that area. MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS I want to refer you to page 27 of the record where part of your letter that you wrote to the Amnesty Committee, and this was the letter where you were enquiring about the delay. This is the letter you wrote dated the 10th of November 1997. I specifically want to refer you to paragraph 4. You say there ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Does he have that letter before him? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR WILLS You say there in paragraph 4, and I quote "the instructions came from the following persons, or leaders. One, the member of parliament Mr D Ntombela." Do you see that? MR MWELI Yes. MR WILLS Is this true? MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS So why did you say in your letter to the Amnesty Committee that he gave you instructions? MR MWELI What I thought is that when I testify here before the Commission, his name was going to come out, so I just provided IFP leaders who were involved, or who knew about these incidents. He knows, or he also provided a place for us to hide from the police. MR WILLS MR MWELI I took the decision to put his name down here so that I wanted the Commission to approach him and ask him if he knew about the incidents at Imbali, but he never gave me a specific instruction to go and do whatsoever. CHAIRPERSON ADV SIGODI I just want to find out, was Mr Ntombela an IFP member, a leader of the IFP, then, at that time? Was he a leader of the IFP at that time? MR MWELI He was the member of parliament in KwaZulu and he was Vice-chairman in Midlands. MR WILLS Just one quick point to clear up. You said in your evidence in chief that you were the chairperson of the ward for youth, is that right? MR MWELI MR WILLS I see a number of the acts, the shootings, were committed with particular FN Browning firearm. Do you agree with that? MR MWELI MR WILLS Where did you get this firearm from? MR MWELI From Jerome. From Mr Mncwabe. MR WILLS Do you know where he got it from? MR MWELI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Does that matter really? MR WILLS Please Mr Chairman ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Does it matter as far as he is concerned because he was given it by somebody else. The history of it may not be known to him. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes ...(indistinct) does he know if that firearm was stolen? MR WILLS Do you know whether that firearm was stolen? MR MWELI I heard about this when I was in Court. MR WILLS And you know nothing about what happened to Mr Jonah? MR MWELI MR WILLS ADV DE JAGER MR WILLS Yes. MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER Yes, but you were asked about the other people. MR WILLS Did you know about the person Mr Sithebe and Mr SP Majosi? ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI MR WILLS Did you kill any dogs that night? MR MWELI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON What is your question you want to put to him? MR WILLS Did you not question Mr Mncwabe, or did you not feel this instruction was wrong? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Even though sometimes you will ask, but as a person who are living there you know the situation in that area, you see no reason why you should ask those questions because you knew this was something which was going on. MR WILLS I see in a number of the counts, and what comes to mind specifically is count 1, there are others, where you shot at people who were fleeing from you. You shot at them when they were running away and they got injured in the back. Do you agree with that? MR MWELI Yes. MR WILLS And others you shot at very close range. MR MWELI Yes, it was the situation. Sometimes you will find cases like that. You will shoot people at close range. MR WILLS Did you enjoy killing the people at the time? MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON You knew that you got instructions, and you willingly carried out those instructions. You could have declined to carry out those instructions. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. ADV SIGODI Can I just clear this up with you? You said that you would get instructions, and did you believe, did you believe that what you were doing was the right thing when carrying out those instructions? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Wills. MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Turning to count 3. The instruction that you got from Mr Gasela in count 3. Could you just tell us what he said to you in relation to Mr Duma? Why was Mr Duma to be killed? MR MWELI Ndo was wanted by IFP members because he was one person who was involved with IFP attacks, too many of them. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON That he was wanted by the members of his organisation? MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS So you killed this person on the basis of hearsay information? Or you attempted to kill him on the basis of hearsay information. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR WILLS MR MWELI Baba and them they used to attack the houses which were closer to the IFP area. Even when these women from IFP houses were going to shops they will come back running saying that Baba and them were chasing them. And then the instruction was that we were supposed to remove them and they were the ones who made the Section One to be ANC stronghold. MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS You say, referring to count 11, that Mr Gasela gave you instructions to kill Mr Sisebo. Is that right? ADV DE JAGER Which count is Sisebo now? MR WILLS Count 11. CHAIRPERSON What is your answer to that? MR MWELI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Were they together when you received these instructions, or did they talk to you separately? MR MWELI They were together. MR WILLS And who gave the instruction? Was it all three of them? Did they all give you the instruction, or was it just one those three persons? MR MWELI MR WILLS INTERPRETER Excuse me, page? MR WILLS Twenty seven. CHAIRPERSON What is the question? MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS If they had not given you this instruction, would you have performed this atrocity? MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI I can put that way too. MR WILLS So were there any of these incidents in respect of which you applied for amnesty where you did, in fact, kill without instruction? You say you knew some of these people to be ANC fighters, or UDF fighters. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes I can put it that way too. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Ms Williams, you may have questions to put to the applicant. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILLIAMS Yes I do, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Mweli you said in your testimony that you did not enjoy killing, is that correct? MR MWELI MS WILLIAMS May I refer the Committee to page 106 of the bundle, where Justice Wilson at page 106, line 22, if the Committee will bear with me "I am pleased to say that in the years I have practised at the Bar or been on the bench I have never before had to deal with someone who I am so convinced is inherently evil. In the light of the conclusions I have arrived at as to his personality, that is, that he killed for the sake of killing, and enjoyed doing it, I do not believe that there is any reasonable prospect of his being reformed. When that prospect of reformation is weighed against his potential danger to members of the public if he is once again let loose on them it is true it is necessary to pass heavy sentences to deter others from committing the same offence. But in the present case, even that in my view is overshadowed by the necessity to protect the public from what I consider to be an extremely dangerous person, and a person who is unlikely to change," ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON We have a copy of this page. ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER MS WILLIAMS Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. "... one who kills for the love of killing, who kills in cold blood anybody he comes across." Mr Mweli please could you comment on the comments made by Justice Wilson in passing judgment in your matter. MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) some people used me. Who were the people that used you? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON The people who you say gave you instructions? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MS WILLIAMS Mr Mweli you also said in your testimony that there was no-one forcing you to do the killing, but rather circumstances, is that correct? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Do you know what is an order that is given by somebody? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI Yes, I do, you explaining it to me. CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON You carried out these instructions because you agreed with them. MR MWELI Yes, I can say so. CHAIRPERSON So you were not forced by circumstances, you willingly did what you did? MR MWELI No, I was forced by circumstances and the situation in that area and also I had to protect myself. The situation was forcing me. CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright. Do carry on. MS WILLIAMS Mr Mweli, in the judgment the Honourable Justice Wilson refers to after a weighing up of all the evidence the testimony of the witnesses led by the State and the witnesses led in your defence, and yourself who took the stand in your defence, he in conclusion states at 106 at line 16 "... after weighing up of all the evidence, there can be no suggestion there of any political motive, of any political hatred. This was killing for the sake of killing." Could you please comment on that? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON What did your age have to do with this, you could not give evidence because of your age? What had age to do with it please tell me? MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) that one of the reasons why you did not give evidence was because of your age. My question is, what did your age have to do with it? MR MWELI ADV DE JAGER ADV SIGODI With respect, he did not say that. He did not say that the judge said that. MR MWELI My lawyer, my attorney, said I was under seventeen, not the judge. CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTON PUMANI DEREK MWELI (s.u.o.) MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MS WILLIAMS ADV DE JAGER Are those the persons mentioned on page 27? MS WILLIAMS That is correct. I have in fact received notification from the TRC, and appear on behalf of the following persons: Mr David Ntombelo, Mr Abdul Awette, Mr Jerome Mncwabe, Mr VP Ndlovu, Mr Gasela, Mr Ndlandla Luthuli, Mr Toto Zulu and Mr Tulani Mncwabe. ADV DE JAGER The two last names again please. MS WILLIAMS Mr Toto Zulu. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Yes, what about them? MS WILLIAMS MR MWELI MS WILLIAMS That is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON How long will it take you to get that instruction? MR WILLS Well I should imagine fifteen minutes at the most, Mr Chairperson. And by that I mean coming in and out included. But I can continue in the main with the cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Do as much as you can. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON I understand. MR WILLS Thank you. Mr Mweli you indicated in relation to the evidence in count 1 that you were paid five hundred rand, I think you said per month. Am I correct in that understanding? You also say it in your second application form. MR MWELI I did not say that with regard to count 1 I was paid some, an amount of money. What I said was I was not paid. That was the money given to me because at times I render services of escorting them and going with them all the places they go to. I will say, out of all the leaders who were there, like Mr Awette, Mncwabe, and Thu, all the time wanted my services, wanted my company, so that the money was given to me, not that it was paid, or it was payment for some job or work I had conducted or I had done. CHAIRPERSON In other words it was not a salary you were receiving, is that what you are saying? MR MWELI No, it was not, because this was not happening all the time. MR WILLS Are you saying that you got the five hundred rand a month in respect of services you rend..., or five hundred rand occasionally, in respect of services you rendered in relation to accompanying these people, Mr Awette and Mr Mncwabe, and that the five hundred rand had nothing to do with the killings that you conducted? MR MWELI It had nothing to do with all the atrocities. It was also not, this was not done all the time, it was only occasionally that I will be given some amount of money. They will give me that money for me to take care of other expenses or of my problems, not necessarily saying they are paying me some salary or some wages of some kind, no. MR WILLS You linked this five hundred rand in your amnesty application at page 23 directly to the acts in respect of which you are applying for amnesty. You are asked on that question, "...did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise?" And you say, "... Yes, sometimes I was given five hundred rand a month." MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI It was time. Time was as the thing happened it happened so abrupt so immediately so urgent that I never took time to think or to realise the things I was doing these things on the spur of the moment. So that everything that happened happened so fast as lightning. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. When you were detained after the charges were withdrawn, do you recall that? You were visited by the security police, is that right? MR MWELI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Is this during his detention under the state of emergency? MR WILLS Yes Mr Chairperson. MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI CHAIRPERSON I think the counsel is trying to, we understand that you may have been visited by many of them I think he wants to know from you what did they come to see you about? Is that it? MR MWELI They will come to get statements from me, and admit the cases I had. No-one came on a friendly basis to visit me as such, except there were always in a mission. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) they want you to make a statement in connection with the matters for which you had been originally arrested, is that it? MR MWELI Yes. CHAIRPERSON This was whilst you were detained under the state of emergency? MR MWELI Yes. MR WILLS And you say that Lieutenant Marion visited you at that time as well, when you were actually in detention under the state of emergency? MR MWELI Yes, he used to come to take statements. MR WILLS MR MWELI Will you please repeat the last part of your question. Please repeat the last part Mr Wills. MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS MR MWELI I did not quite follow you. MR WILLS MR MWELI MR WILLS Just in response Mr Mweli, are you telling the Committee here - and to be fair with you the community believe that you were involved in a number of the acts in respect of which you were acquitted, are you saying that except for the one incident, and I think that was count 16, in all the other ones that you were acquitted, you had nothing to do with those incidents? MR SAMUEL MR WILLS MR SAMUEL ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) Ms Patel, do you have any questions to put. MS PATEL NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you, very briefly. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION PUMANI DEREK MWELI (s.u.o.) MR WILLS Yes, thank you very much for the indulgence Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee. I have no further questions for this witness, and neither do I intend leading any evidence. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR SAMUEL No, Honourable Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL No. CHAIRPERSON Are you in a position to address us ...(indistinct). MR SAMUEL I can address you. CHAIRPERSON You can? Will you do so please. MR SAMUEL ADDRESSES COMMITTEE Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. The applicant was a 14 year old, or at the most a sixteen year old, when his house was burned down, the house in which he lived with his sister, by people suspected to belong to the UDF. And he had to move from a mixed, area of mixed political affiliation to an area which was predominantly Inkatha based. He was recruited into the Inkatha Youth Brigade, and because he is a bright young person he held office as the vice-chairperson, or the deputy chairperson. He was subsequently recruited by some senior IFP officials into the more militant part of the organisation. He was trained, he was given training in the use of firearms, and he was in fact given a weapon at such a tender age. He was given instructions to kill those who were attacking the IFP members as well as a general instruction to kill people who supported the UDF. On certain occasions he was given specific instructions to eliminate ANC, UDF people, and in respect of the counts 16 to 19 he was given a general instruction to kill everything or everyone in that area. He was not only targeted because of his unfortunate loss of his home in the area that he lived, and because he was bright, but he was also targeted psychologically by the IFP. They utilised the use of muti, which must have had an impact on him even though he was a bright person but he was very young and could have been easily influenced by the use of muti. He indicated that the factors that drove him to do what he did, the killing, was that he was given an instruction and not an order, and he has distinguished between this fairly clearly, it was an instruction, but also the circumstances made him follow the instruction. It was the circumstances prevailing in that area. It was an area of violent IFP UDF conflict. It was an area where people were dying on a daily basis, there were loss of life on both sides. It was a situation he described that whenever UDF people met ANC people, whoever drew out the gun first would fire on, UDP people I mean IFP people, whoever drew out their guns first would fire on the opposition. If you had no guns you ran away, if you had guns you fired. So it was effectively a war zone. I believe that Justice Wilson in 1989 when he sentenced the accused would not have had the benefit that he has had now, of sitting and listening to the kind of atrocities that he may have heard at the Truth Commission. I am fairly sure that if he were to give, pass judgment on this case today with the knowledge that he has today, he would not attribute it to total criminal activity on the part of the applicant. Because this, as the applicant himself says, he killed no women, the targets were UDF males or ANC males. It was not a situation where he went into an area and indiscriminately killed absolutely everyone. He did indiscriminately kill, but he indiscriminately killed male people, and these male people he felt strongly belonged to the ANC or UDF. The state even believed that this was a political crime, because they held him in terms of the state of emergency, while they conducted their investigations. So, at an early stage it was recognised by the state organs, that is the police, that in fact this was an offence of a political nature. One may argue at length on the proportionality element in this matter. Whether the ends that was trying to achieve was justified by the means that he used. But the applicant was living in a state of war. He had been fired upon many times, his house was burned. He has also stated that he was fighting for an IFP state, a IFP state controlled by the IFP, the IFP controlling KwaZulu Natal, and to that extent he carried out instructions to get rid of areas of UDF and ANC people. To me there appears to be no difference between the applicant who goes into this area and shoots a thirteen year old and an 11 year boy, and two other people in a UDF stronghold, the say to someone who our state has granted indemnity to and that being perhaps Barend Strydom who walks down Pretoria streets and fires indiscriminately at black people or Derick Robert MacBride who takes ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Hold on. Neither of these people have been granted amnesty. MR SAMUEL They were pardoned by the State. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. The government, the democratic coalition of the government at that stage granted both MacBride ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON If his physical age was that of a young boy, but he was intellectually developed beyond his age, would that make any difference? MR SAMUEL Honourable Chairperson, he may have been a bright boy, but he was still a bright boy, if the Chairperson gets my meaning. One may be intelligent, but the level of maturity that comes with age cannot be exchanged for intelligence and as an intelligent child one still has a propensity to act like a child, or the disposition to act like a child and not an adult. He was not precocious beyond his years. CHAIRPERSON And he was willing. MR SAMUEL He was willing because he was in their hands. His house was burned down, he moved into a new area. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Honourable Chairperson, I submit with respect, that he is somebody who has been used by the political situation and the political organisations in this country, and he should be given amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills. MR WILLS ADDRESSES COMMITTEE Yes thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, my instructions are to oppose amnesty on all counts on the basis of the applicant has not given full disclosure and also on the basis that certain of the incidents CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes, assault, thank you Mr Chairperson, an hour before, he simply comes back to the area and finds two persons hanging around an approximate place where an earlier incident takes place. Mr Chairperson also, with respect, the application is opposed on the grounds of proportionality and particularly in relation to the admitted murder of the thirteen year old boy Sithebe in count 16 for which he was acquitted, and in respect of the murder of the eleven year old boy Majosi in count 18, and in respect of the deceased, the retarded individual in count 16, Mdluli. Whilst it is conceded that his evidence was to the effect that he must just go kill anybody in that area, and whilst my colleague seeks to ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MS WILLIAMS Nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? MS PATEL No thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuel? MR SAMUEL IN REPLY Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, very briefly in response, as regards the non-full disclosure, if one looks at count 16 in which the applicant has admitted killing someone for whom he was found not guilty, in respect of whom he was found not guilty, I submit that is indicative of his truthfulness. As regards count 1, the applicant is saying that these were UDF operatives who were armed with spears, who came to him, and they were people who attacked IFP people in the area. It is unlikely that they are going to instruct my learned colleague that in fact they were UDF operatives, that they in fact had the spears in their hands and in fact were about to attack the applicant. So one can understand that his instructions may be somewhat different to what the applicant is saying, because these people have their own necks to protect, with respect, Honourable Chairperson. But if one looks at his honesty in respect of count 16, where there was no onus on him to admit that, he did. In fact, why should he, on counts 16, 17, 18 and 19 say I went and shot indiscriminately at people living in a UDF stronghold and in count one not be willing to say that if, you know that there was an altercation if that occurred, I leave that for the ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER In fact in his evidence in chief in count 1 he mentioned that they asked him about him harassing his girlfriend. So he mentioned it in chief. MR SAMUEL Thank you Honourable Member. MR SAMUEL Those were the circumstances that turned him into the kind of person that he turned out to be. He had to be on his defensive, he had to carry arms, and he had to attack first before he was attacked. In count 13 and 14 he did indicate that when Mr Awette said assault, and bearing in mind Mr Awette is the one who gave him the gun, obviously assault meant more to him than just punching somebody or slapping somebody around. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. This has been a long session, and it will take some time before we will meet as a panel again. We hope in the meanwhile to be able to consider this application and in due course, when we arrive at our decision, all interested parties, including you Ms Williams, will be duly informed. MS PATEL Would everybody please rise. HEARING ADJOURNS