amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-02 METHODIST CHURCH, JOHANNESBURG 2 VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53170&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990202jh.htm CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON And this one? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Which booklet is supplement to the blue one? Does it read application supplement on supplement one? The white one, supplement to. MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Shane. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane, your ...(intervention) MR SHANE I repeat the identity number CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? MR MABASO No. VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Where was that, that he mentions the possession? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Is it in respect of those weapons used in the murder for which he applies? MR SHANE That is correct, sir. CHAIRPERSON Fine. MR SHANE Also sir, when he patrolled as well, weapons were possessed, but these are not gross human rights violations, they ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE Sir, it would be a general possession over a period of time. There was, he was in possession of weapons on several days, but he possessed weapons when these ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE Mr Chairman, from statements of the applicant, and from my instructions, he possessed weapons over a period time. He cannot remember exactly how many different weapons he possessed, or the amounts of ammunition he possessed. There were times when he was handed weapons by other members of the SDU, for that period time he possessed, he ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane, it is going to be pointless explaining ...(inaudible). Would it not be prudent for the purposes of the application then, to restrict the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition to the incidents which have been identified and for which he actually applies for amnesty? EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Yes sir, it would be, and we will restrict it to those acts. Mr Mabaso, you are also known as Muchacho, is that correct? MR MABASO That is correct. MR SHANE And you were in fact the commander of the Self-Defence Unit at Tokoza. MR MABASO That is correct. MR SHANE You, as the commander you gave orders to other members and they carried out your orders. Is that correct? MR MABASO That is correct. ADV GCABASHE MR MABASO That is correct. MR SHANE MR MABASO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you trained? MR MABASO No. CHAIRPERSON Were you given any instruction on how to command such a unit? MR MABASO No. CHAIRPERSON Who would give political leadership to the unit? MR MABASO We used to meet with the ANC which will be represented by Mr Duma Nkozi who is in parliament in Cape Town. This included Mr Louis Sibeko who is councillor at Greater Alberton. These are the people with whom we used to meet falling from different organisation. ADV GCABASHE They are, just to get this right again, they are the people who formed part of the overall committee that was guiding all the units in Tokoza. The central committee is what they called it, I think. MR MABASO Yes, there were other people and I think they are part of these applications. Maybe I cannot remember them all now. MR SIBANYONI MR MABASO Louis Sibeko is the name. Louis Sibeko. CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO Shall I give you all the names? ADV GCABASHE All the ones you remember, yes. MR MABASO Bonga Nkosi, Lucky Siyephe, Blamoses Kupeka, Dumnisani Mbatha, Meneer Ngcubi. I cannot remember the others, but they are part of this submission. MR SHANE Now, when did you join the Self-Defence Unit? MR MABASO Between 1991 and 1992. MR SHANE And when did you join the African National Congress? MR MABASO In 1990. But I used to follow the ANC before 1990, but then I joined in 1990 after the unbanning of the armed struggle. MR SHANE Did you live in Penduka section, with your family? MR MABASO Yes, I used to reside there, at Khumalo Street. MR SHANE MR MABASO MR SHANE And you knew that this attack was carried out by Inkatha Freedom Party members. Is that correct? MR MABASO Yes, I knew, because Inkatha wanted me, and they had been seeking me for a very long time. They wanted me to join so that I can be part of amabuto. We were still young at the time so I knew that the attack on the homestead was actually aimed at myself. I am the one who was targeted. I had fled at the time. MR SHANE Now, regarding the killing of Stephen Radebe. Is it correct that before the ANC was unbanned, and during the 1980's, this person Stephen Radebe was known to you? MR MABASO MR SHANE When you say you knew what he was doing, what do you mean? What was he doing? What are you referring to? MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON What is ntelezi? MR MABASO MR SHANE Is it also correct that you, or they tried to, or including Stephen, tried to get you, force you to join the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR MABASO Not myself alone. He was not forcing us, but when we were playing soccer or dice at Madondo park, at Penduka, he used to convince us, and in our case it was not easy for us to defend the ANC or ANC/PAC. We would keep quiet most of the time, and he used to involve Inkatha in his topics, saying how Inkatha can help people in whatever was happening, but then he was not compelling us, he was trying to influence us to attend meetings. MR SHANE Is it correct that the deceased ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why do you think that the Inkatha Freedom Party was so interested in obtaining your membership? Where would they have got the information that you would be an appropriate member? MR MABASO It was not only myself. There is also the situation where any person who resided there, it was not only myself. Any one boy who resided at Penduka was sometimes forced. Some of them were sjambokked and beaten up with knobkerries, forced to attend meetings and mornings, and we would escape by way of staying indoors, and we would be beaten up. The one thing that they wanted, was that we should defend Ngcala in case it is attacked. That is Ngcala or Polla Park. They wanted us to take the forefront in the defence of these two areas. There is also many other amaZulu who had come from Natal, who were recruiting us. Some of them came to us with promises that we should shoot, Inkatha, they would give us firearms. And one other thing is that I stayed opposite the hostel gate, and therefore it was easy for us to, or easy for them to see whatever move we were making. CHAIRPERSON I appreciate your modesty, but it would appear that they took special interest in you. You yourself associate the attack on your family home to their quest to acquire your membership. Where would they have found out that you would be a prized member? Who would have told them that? That Mr Mabaso is a good person to get as a member. Who do you think? MR MABASO I have no knowledge for now, but they got information from their informers to the effect that we have an AK, and that we were planning to defend the community against Inkatha, because Inkatha had already harassed people quite a lot, and we were working, or coming across dead bodies every day. Young children were no longer scared of dead corpses or dead bodies. Maybe they managed to get information to that effect, because I was active insofar as gathering money is concerned, to buy AK-47. MR SIBANYONI So when they attacked your family house, you were already a member of the MK? MR MABASO MR SHANE Are you a Zulu? MR MABASO Yes. MR SHANE MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO MR SHANE Now, can you explain the circumstances which led to the killing, or the murder, of Stephen Radebe. MR MABASO MR SHANE MR MABASO Yes, Stephen Radebe was then fetched. I issued an order to some of our comrades to the effect that they should fetch him up, fetch him, bring him so that we could question him about his activities, and try to get the reasons thereof. We brought him to office that is based at Nkosi Street. Some of our fellow comrades left, I think 20 of us remained, and other were still outside eating. The time was about the patrol time of the evening. We took him and we brought along an AK-47 and a handgun. We went to Nkatiswe grounds. One of our comrades shot at him and I too shot him. I am the one who issued the order. I partook in his killing. MR SHANE Who else partook in his killing? Who are the comrades that you are referring to, that took part in the killing? MR MABASO Mzwake, Ernest Buthelezi, he is the one with whom I was involved in this matter. MR SHANE And did he also fire shots at Stephen? MR MABASO Yes, he too fired shots, and I later fired shots. MR SHANE You, what kind of weapon did you use? MR MABASO A palm gun. MR SHANE And where did you get that weapon from? MR MABASO We used to purchase these firearms from Polla Park, and Vosloo was at a shelter. We used to buy them from there, bring them to the township for use. I cannot be certain as to where these two firearms we were using came from. MR SHANE Were these firearms stored in your, in the house which you called the office? MR MABASO Some of these firearms were kept at the office, so that in case there is an attack from behind where the office was. You see most of the time the Inkatha people did not come on their own. They would be delivered by Caspirs so that most of the time it would happen that there would be killings at or behind us where we were not observant. So that we wanted to have a situation where we could easily prevent such attacks from happening, and I used to order that each one of our people have their firearms within their group. I had seven groups. All of these groups had their own firearms, or should I say there was one firearm per group. MR SHANE And obviously none of your comrades had licences to possess these weapons. MR MABASO MR SHANE Who was this person? MR MABASO I only know his surname. Mr Mazibuko. MR SHANE Were you the first person to shoot Stephen Radebe, or ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Does it matter? MR SHANE Actually not Mr Chairman. Now, what happened after Stephen Radebe was shot? What happened, do you know what happened to his body? Do you have any knowledge? What did you do after the shooting? MR MABASO MR SHANE Now Stephen, as you said, Stephen Radebe was a person known to you who used to take part in recreational activities with you, like playing dice, as you said. Did you know any members of his family? MR MABASO MR SHANE MR MABASO Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE And is it correct that this person Beki Khanyile was murdered on the same day as Stephen Radebe was murdered? MR MABASO MR SHANE Can you please explain the circumstances as to how he was murdered. MR MABASO MR SHANE The civic leader that you called Sam, that is in fact the late Sam Ntuli, is that correct? MR MABASO Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You knew that they were IFP activists that are getting up to all this nonsense. MR MABASO Yes, fully. CHAIRPERSON What was the purpose of speaking to them, getting them to admit issues, things? MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO May the question please be repeated. CHAIRPERSON What would have happened had, during that interrogation, either or both of these victims denied what was being said to them? MR MABASO I would have no choice if they denied everything, or should I say, if they denied everything and yet I knew certain things, I would issue an order to the effect that we should forgive them but use them later on. They should stick to Inkatha and only SDU members should know that we have our own intelligence within Inkatha. So that it transpired that they admitted their involvement and they admitted to these because they knew we grew up together and they knew what they were doing, and that is why I am saying that I did not have a choice. They cried very sadly, apologising profusely. MR SHANE Now, can you explain how, what happened regarding the actual killing of Beki? He was taken somewhere. Will you tell the whole story of how he died. MR MABASO MR SHANE At which place was he actually killed? Can you give a description? MR MABASO It was between Makazile and Katizwe. There is a veld in that area. It is not a long distance from the office and he was walking freely. Even if somebody could come across us one would not have noticed that somebody was under guard. He was walking freely right up to the spot where he was shot, but then I am not quite sure who fired the first shot, but yes, three of us shot, using, fired shots using AK-47. MR SHANE Did all three of you use the same weapon, or did you have, each of you have your own weapons? MR MABASO Some of the other firearms had been stored for later patrols. The one firearm that we used was the one that used to be kept at the office. We used the same firearm. MR SHANE Can you remember how many shots you actually fired? MR MABASO Plus minus two times. MR SHANE At what part of the body? MR MABASO I cannot recall, because he had been lying down at the time trying to stand up. He was quite a strong person. He tried to rise after he had been shot. It could have been the foot or the hand, I am not sure. MR SHANE MR MABASO MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Before you answer that question. Are you ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER May the question please be repeated. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE MR MABASO MR SHANE That is the evidence, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, my question to you is, did you discuss the questioning and the possible killing, of both Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, with any of the political leadership before they were killed? The people you mentioned. Please like Mr Duma Nkosi, Louis Sibeko, Mr Sieyephe, Ms Ngubu, Mr Mbatha. Do you understand the question? MR MABASO ADV STEENKAMP My question basically is, are you then saying that none of these people were aware, whatsoever, about the decision you took, am I right? MR MABASO ADV STEENKAMP Can you just indicate to us, who were the people you sent to fetch Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, for the questioning? Can you tell us who these people were? MR MABASO There were more than 20 or 25. I can try and count the others ...(indistinct). ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE Mr Mabaso, Beki and Stephen, where did you find them, in relation to where they lived. You can deal with one and then with the other one. MR MABASO ADV GCABASHE Where were you expecting them to be found, when you gave that order? MR MABASO MR SHANE COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO (s.u.o.) MR SHANE Mr Chairman there was, I think learned ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is your client okay now? MR SHANE ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. We were talking about Beki and Stephen, and you had indicated in your testimony that they were killed on the same day. Who was fetched or brought to you first, is one question? MR MABASO Beki Khanyile was the first one. ADV GCABASHE Then Beki was killed. Stephen was brought on the same day at a later time. Is this what your evidence is? MR MABASO Yes, that took place after 20 to 30 minutes, Stephen was fetched. ADV GCABASHE Was he fetched by the same group of SDU members, the same group that had fetched Beki? MR MABASO ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you chair. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. You said you took, in fact there were two weapons, an AK-47 and a palm gun. Did I understand you correctly? MR MABASO Yes. MR SIBANYONI Now, at the killing, which weapon was used? MR MABASO An AK-47 was used to kill Beki, and the second killing both weapons were used. MR SIBANYONI Now amongst the people who fetched Khanyile and Beki, are there any who are your co-applicants today? MR MABASO There is one of them that I was with during the killing. There are some of them here in this hall but some of us, some of them, are dead now. MR SIBANYONI Who are here? Who are still here, who are still alive? MR MABASO MR SIBANYONI Now how did it happen - We heard that they were taken to the house which was used as an office. Were both of them taken to that house first, before they were taken to the veld? MR MABASO MR SIBANYONI Yes what I want to know were they, each one of them, taken to the same house before taken to the veld? MR MABASO MR SIBANYONI Now after Khanyile was killed, and while Radebe was going to be fetched, where did you wait, you personally? MR MABASO In the office. I was busy having my supper. It was time for patrolling so I was having my supper in that house number 1037. MR SIBANYONI MR MABASO MR SIBANYONI You said you are two. Who is the other one? MR MABASO Moses Blangobesi. He was not present on that particular day. MR SIBANYONI What is his rank compared to your position, being the highest one? MR MABASO Tambo Slovo is composed of two sections, Tambo and Slovo were under Penduka section because they were in Penduka. That other person was a leader of Tambo section, was a leader of Tambo but we were combined, we were one, and we would command because we were under the commanding structure. If he issues a command during my absence he reports that, he would report that to me, and I would do the same. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You said Stephen was an informer. That was one of the problems you had with him. MR MABASO Yes, he was an informer. He was also an inyanga, that was protecting the Inkatha impis. CHAIRPERSON To whom would he report his information? MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON You, from your evidence it seems to me that there is brought into sharp focus the issue of cultures, as followed by what is known as Zulu people and what is known as Xhosa people. Do I understand you correctly? MR MABASO I do not understand you. CHAIRPERSON When you testified, it seems to me that you were talking about Zulu people from Natal and elsewhere, and those that I assume are not Zulu people, for example Xhosa, there are differences and during these fights that issue was brought into sharp focus. Did I understand you correctly? MR MABASO I do not understand. I understand about the Zulus coming from Natal, but I do not understand the other parts of your question. Will you please explain further. CHAIRPERSON Why was it important that Zulu people, as it was put to you and I assume it was your instructions therefore, that Zulu people were attached to the IFP? Or so it was perceived. MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON Did I understand you correctly, you were saying as I understand your evidence, that our people should not allow themselves to be used with all these dirty tricks again? MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON Now in your evidence also you are saying that some of these firearms that were used in your activities were purchased in Polla Park. Surely these were not recognised dealers in firearms? This was gun running, not so? MR MABASO Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, is this still available, this facility? To buy guns illegally. I tell you why I ask and maybe you must consider your answer in the context of your other answer, where you said in those days, and I can understand why that was so, that offences committed by certain people were covered up by the community. Now if there is gun running today, this policy of covering up, would that still be in place in respect of illegal gun running? MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON One last aspect I want to cover with you. It is perhaps a sensitive issue, but I need to know what your attitude would be. When you killed these two deceased, how did you feel yourself? MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane have you got any questions? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Just one last aspect Mr Chairman. Can you remember the 10th of May 1997, that was the day of the deadline for filing your application for amnesty. Do you remember that day? MR MABASO MR SHANE Where did you fill in your forms? MR MABASO That was at Mapanzela Primary School on a Saturday. MR SHANE MR MABASO Yes, all the SDU members who were involved in offences that took place before, all of us were there filling in the forms, and we were divided according to incidents, according to separate incidents. MR SHANE Were you assisted in this by officials from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? MR MABASO Yes, we were assisted. We were assisted and I would like to thank the people who gave us that assistance and even today they are still helping us. MR SHANE MR MABASO CHAIRPERSON Was he there when you people were filling in forms? MR MABASO Yes, he was sitting next to me and three of us filled in the forms. It was myself, Vushi Basinbata and Mzwake Ernest Buthelezi. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE MR MABASO MR SHANE And do you know what happened to your form after you filled in your application? Who did you give it to? CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Irrelevant, okay. MR SHANE If I can leave it at that, sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp maybe you can ask those questions. ADV STEENKAMP ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman, insofar as this applicant before you, there is nothing further that we, that is his case, thank you sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON And no further applications? MR SHANE No further applications Mr Chairman. In the circumstances I would ask the Commission to excuse this applicant, thank you. CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED