amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-02 JOHANNESBURG 2 SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53171&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990202jh.htm MR SHANE Sir on Thursday last week all the legal representatives, together with Mr Andre Steenkamp and other officials of the TRC met at TRC offices, and it was in fact undertaken that transport would be arranged for the applicants to be brought here. And the applicants needed that as they are all unemployed and cannot afford the transport costs which would be on a daily basis. Now I am informed, Mr Chairman, that there has been a problem, the taxi drivers up to now have not been paid, they are threatening the applicants who cannot afford to pay them, and they have clearly stated that they will certainly not take them back home today, or bring them back here again. Mr Chairman this could also lead to further violence because we all know how volatile the taxi industry is in this regard. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman if I may be so rude to interrupt. Maybe just a small amendment to what my learned colleague indicated, and that the minutes of the pre-trial or the pre-meeting will, pre-hearing will reflect this. The position was that the logistical officer of the Commission is in charge of logistical arrangements and such an issue will obviously have to be made with the logistical director or the logistical person responsible for this hearing. As far as my knowledge serves me no such undertaking was given that the TRC will in fact, as a point of principle, be responsible for the logistical arrangements of the applicants. However, the indication was, for myself, that the logistical officer will make such arrangements and decisions like this will obviously have to be taken by the Executive Secretary of the Amnesty Committee, or by the Chairperson of the specific hearing. Thank you Mr Chairman. ...(blank on tape) CHAIRPERSON ...(blank on tape) I want to break for five minutes. I want to see the Logistics Officer please. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON I have been asked to sanction payment of transport fees for all or some of the applicants to attend this hearing. Mr Shane in this unusual application has indicated that serious problems may arise if these fees are not covered by the Commission. ...(inaudible) I wish to point out that the fees requested is not a matter for, or covered by the rights which the applicants have. As in any other hearing either in a Court of law or tribunal, such fees are not claimable from the State. It is unfortunate that I have been told of threats or possible taxi violence should these fees not be paid. The fact of the matter is that the applicants are the applicants in this matter, and they have chosen to make the applications. The hearings have been arranged for this venue and if they wish to continue with the applications they must therefore in terms of the Act come testify. So it is for them to decide what they want to do. I am not making a ruling. These are just matters that I wish to point out, having been asked to make a decision on this matter. Mr Shane is completely correct, that I am not empowered to make a decision on those fees. I will not make such a decision. Thank you. Yes Mr Shane? MR SHANE ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane you promised to give us identity numbers of the previous two applicants. MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) 97. ...(inaudible) quite different. MR SHANE Mr Chairman I see in his original application form the number seven was left out. CHAIRPERSON Is this the same person? MR SHANE It is indeed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Have you got an identity number for Mr Vusi Mbatha? You promised to have it by lunchtime. MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE Mr Nkosi what language do you prefer to use? MR NKOSI Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objections to the taking of the oath? SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Yes. EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE MR NKOSI That is correct. MR SHANE MR NKOSI That is correct. MR SHANE Can you tell the Committee as to your membership of the Self-Defence Units, what type of member were you? MR NKOSI Would you please repeat the question. MR SHANE Were you an ordinary member of the Self-Defence Unit? MR NKOSI That is correct. MR SHANE And that Self-Defence Unit was in the Slovo section? MR NKOSI That is correct, Slovo section in Tokoza Gardens. MR SHANE Were you not a commander in that unit? MR NKOSI Yes. MR SHANE When did you join the Self-Defence Unit? MR NKOSI In 1990, as an underground. MR SHANE And you also are a member of the ANC. MR NKOSI That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Just before you move on Mr Shane. Can I just get this right? Slovo section and Tokoza Gardens is that one section or two sections? I always try and differentiate between the old names and the new names. MR NKOSI These are two different places. ADV GCABASHE So you were active in both Slovo and Tokoza Gardens? MR NKOSI That is correct. ADV GCABASHE But you were only a commander in Tokoza Gardens? MR NKOSI That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR SHANE And you explain to the Committee the circumstances which led you to be involved in the murder of Jabu Dube? MR NKOSI Would you please repeat the last part. MR SHANE Can you explain why did you get involved in the murder of Jabulane Dube? MR NKOSI MR SHANE When you fled Penduka section, can you tell what happened to your home? MR NKOSI I am the one who fled first. CHAIRPERSON Why did you flee? MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE Sorry, I just missed something. Your neighbour informed the IFP members that what? What did he inform them of? MR NKOSI He told them that the boy that was insulting them at the gate was stays in that house, the one that was that they were staying next to, it was just the front opposite the front of the house. MR SHANE Now in 1993, is that when Jabu was murdered? MR NKOSI Yes. MR SHANE Can you remember the month? MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE Where was the march going to? MR NKOSI The march was going to Inyoni Park. It was to protest against the stability unit. ADV GCABASHE Now I, we have been told of Kalanyoni as one of the residents of one of the hostels in the area. Has that got anything to do with Inyoni Park? Just help me with those two names. MR NKOSI Inyoni Park is on the way, is a park next, on the way to Vosloorus. MR SHANE Right, now is it correct that you had certain information that Jabu Dube was to be found in a certain tavern? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE And why, and you explain why was it so important for you to find Jabu? MR NKOSI MR SHANE What did you know about Jabu Dube, as being your enemy? MR NKOSI Jabu was informer, IFP informer. MR SHANE How did you know this? MR NKOSI MR SHANE And did anything happen as a result of that pointing out? MR NKOSI The problem started there and the other comrades are not here today, because even during the patrols at Selby Street at about ten, or between ten and eleven during the patrolling, we found the IFP members patrolling and we were on the other side of the ANC, also patrolling. MR SHANE Right, now you went to a certain tavern, can you remember the name of the tavern? MR NKOSI Which tavern is that? MR SHANE This is the tavern where you went to look for the deceased, Jabu Dube. MR NKOSI That is Blue Note, the name of the tavern. MR SHANE Where is it? MR NKOSI It is in Vergenoeg. MR SHANE Is Vergenoeg right next to Tokoza township? MR NKOSI Yes it is in Tokoza. It is in Tokoza. MR SHANE Now you went to this tavern, were you alone? MR NKOSI No. The other SDU members were there. MR SHANE Can you remember their names? MR NKOSI I cannot remember their last names but I can remember their first names. MR SHANE Will you give their first names please? MR NKOSI Johannes Mduduzi, Johannes and Mduduzi. MR SHANE ...(inaudible) are those the only ones? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you just repeat that please. MR NKOSI Johannes and Mduduzi. MR SHANE Right, this person Beki Dube, Jabu Dube sorry, did you know him before? Was he a friend of yours? MR NKOSI Yes he was once a friend of mine. MR SHANE Tell what happened when you saw him in the Blue Note tavern. MR NKOSI MR SHANE Who took that decision? MR NKOSI That was taken by the commanders in a meeting. MR SHANE Can you name any of the commanders. MR NKOSI MR SHANE And the one that is no more, that means dead I presume, what was his name? What was the name of the commander who is no more? MR NKOSI The name of the commander was Thabo Sibeko. ...(inaudible section on tape) MR SHANE So you were acting on orders ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE Can you repeat the name of the commander. MR NKOSI Thabo Sibeko is the name of the commander. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE What was the name of the other commander, just for completeness? MR NKOSI Ncosi. CHAIRPERSON Spelled MR NKOSI MR SHANE MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON Make up your minds. MR SHANE Now you, when you went to the Blue Note did you have information that Jabu Dube was there? MR NKOSI Yes, I had seen him there. MR SHANE You had seen him there, and you had also been given orders that he has to be killed? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Explain what happened when you saw the deceased, Jabu, in the Blue Note tavern. MR NKOSI I went inside the Blue Note tavern. The other group was waiting outside, SDU members, the group was waiting outside and I got inside because he knew me very well, and I called him outside. I left, we went to a circle, we took him with. We took him to a place that was behind the stadium MR SHANE So in other words you went into the tavern because he knew you, he used to be your friend, and he would have left with you? Was that the reason you went into the tavern? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did he come freely? MR NKOSI When we disappeared through the passage that was between the house and the fence I had already told the soldiers that the person I would appear with, they should know that that is the person. And when we appeared the comrades had already pointed him with guns. CHAIRPERSON Did he come freely with you out of the tavern, or did you have to force him to come out? MR NKOSI I did not force him. CHAIRPERSON He came with you because you were, were a decoy? Did you make him believe that he was coming with a friend? MR NKOSI He did not know that there was a plan for him when he came. MR SHANE You went into the tavern alone, your other comrades who were waiting outside did not go into the tavern. Is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE What did you tell the deceased? What did you say to him? MR NKOSI What I can remember, when I found him inside the tavern and I told him that I want to see him, he wanted to know what was it all about, but at the end he left the house with me. MR SHANE And when he wanted to know what it was all about, what did you tell him? MR NKOSI The soldiers were nearer and they could see what was happening. CHAIRPERSON How did you manage to him out of the tavern? MR NKOSI I said he used to be a friend of mine and we used to stay together at Penduka section, as I was calling him he knew he did not know, he did not know that there was a plan, but he went out of the house because he knew me and he thought we were going to discuss something outside. He did not know that there was a plan ready for him. MR SHANE When you got outside, your other comrades who were with you, they also then must have seen the deceased. Is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes that is correct. MR SHANE What happened then, with you and your comrades and the deceased? MR NKOSI We took him with. MR SHANE When you took him did you drag him or did he walk himself? MR NKOSI He was asking for forgiveness on the way but the guns were pointed at him but we took him with. MR SHANE So he walked with guns pointed at him asking for forgiveness? MR NKOSI Yes that is correct. MR SHANE What did he want forgiveness for? MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON But why would someone just ask for forgiveness without being told? MR NKOSI Will you please repeat the question sir. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI In that situation, that war situation, when the comrades visit you with suspicions, and you feel guilty. He felt guilty that is why he was asking for forgiveness. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that? MR NKOSI Sorry? CHAIRPERSON How do you know that he was feeling guilty? MR NKOSI The way he was taken from that place and when the guns were pointed at him he, it was clear to him that he was going to be killed. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Because he was an IFP member CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI No. CHAIRPERSON So you know that he felt guilty about being a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party and therefore he asked for forgiveness? MR NKOSI Yes. MR SHANE When he asked for forgiveness, did you speak to him or did your other comrades speak to him, and ask him why he was seeking forgiveness? Did you find out from him what he had done that he needed to be forgiven for? CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE MR SHANE Do you know why he wanted to be forgiven? Have you got any idea? CHAIRPERSON He wanted to be forgiven because he felt guilty because he was a member of Inkatha. MR SHANE Did the deceased himself tell you anything that he did wrong? Not, this is now not what you thought, but what the deceased himself said to you when he was asking for forgiveness. Did the deceased not mention anything he had done that he needed forgiveness for. MR NKOSI No. MR SHANE You then walked with him, guns pointing at him. Where did you go? MR SHANE We went to a place just behind the Tokoza stadium. MR SHANE Is that near or far from the tavern? MR NKOSI It was far from the tavern. MR SHANE And what happened at the stadium, or outside the stadium, what happened then? MR NKOSI When we arrived there, I instructed two gentlemen to shoot him. MR SHANE Who were these gentlemen you instructed to shoot him? MR NKOSI It was Nduduzi and Johannes. MR SHANE Were they both armed? MR NKOSI Yes that is correct. MR SHANE With AK-47's? MR NKOSI Yes, they had AK-47's. MR SHANE Were you armed? MR NKOSI No. MR SHANE How did you order them to kill him, what did you say? MR NKOSI I told them to take him, when we got behind the stadium they knew very well as they were told from the base that the person that would be brought that person should be killed. So these two boys had firearms, those are the guys that, those are the people that shot. MR SHANE And they shot him on your orders? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Did you witness them shooting him? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Do you know how many shots were fired by each of your comrades who you ordered? MR NKOSI No I cannot remember, but both firearms were used. MR SHANE What happened after he was shot? Did you just leave the body there or what did you do? MR NKOSI We went back to the bases. MR SHANE And you left the body where it was lying. Is that right? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Now, how do you feel, and you say this facing the bereaved family of the deceased, how do you feel about what you did? MR NKOSI I felt bad. MR SHANE Did you feel bad after the incident because he was your friend? Why did you feel bad? MR NKOSI It is because he was my neighbour but I had no choice, I had to do it. MR SHANE So you felt bad because you killed your neighbour and you had no choice, you were doing your duty? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE And now that the family, the bereaved family of the deceased are facing you, do you have anything to say to them now? MR NKOSI Yes there is something that I would like to say. MR SHANE Will you say it? MR NKOSI I would like to ask for forgiveness more especially his mother, the one I grew up in front of and his sisters, the whole family. I would like to ask for forgiveness. MR SHANE These people that you are asking forgiveness for are people that you knew, some of them you grew up with? MR NKOSI Yes that is correct. MR SHANE MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE This was also in 1993? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Can you remember the month? MR NKOSI No. MR SHANE You state ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON In your application you say around November 1993. Is that ? MR NKOSI That could be possible but I cannot remember the month. MR SHANE Can you explain what happened with your attack on the Khumalo gang? MR NKOSI Will you please repeat the question, sir. MR SHANE Will you please explain the details of your attack on the Khumalo gang, for which you are seeking amnesty. MR NKOSI Those people were harassing us at our place of residence. As we were SDU members we decided to launch attacks against the Khumalo gang. We wanted to removed Khumalo because Khumalo was harassing us. MR SHANE Can you just give details? Who was this Khumalo and what was his political affiliations? MR NKOSI Khumalo was a church minister and he was also a member of Inkatha Freedom Party. MR SHANE How were the Khumalo gang harassing you? MR NKOSI They were killing us. MR SHANE When you say they were killing you, had people, can you name people who were actually killed by this gang? MR NKOSI Yes. MR SHANE Can you give a few names to the learned Committee? MR NKOSI MR SHANE What, can you describe the attack, what you did, what actually you did in this attack on the Khumalo gang? MR NKOSI MR SHANE Right, so what did you do? MR NKOSI Sorry? MR SHANE What did you do? MR NKOSI His house was attacked, it was shot at, and the F1 bombs were used to demolish the house. MR SHANE Did you use the F1 bombs yourself, or did other people use the F1 bombs? MR NKOSI There was a unit that was responsible for handling the bombs, and the other were using the hammer. There was operation Shiza and operation Delisa. MR SHANE And you, what did you use, just a firearm or did you use bombs and hammers? MR NKOSI I was handling a firearm. I was handling a firearm. I used to carry a firearm. MR SHANE And what type of firearm? MR NKOSI AK-47. MR SHANE Do you know if you caused any death or any injuries to members of this Khumalo gang? MR NKOSI No. MR SHANE What you do know is that you caused damage to the house? MR NKOSI Yes. MR SHANE Is there anything else you wish to tell the learned Commissioners about your attacks on the Khumalo gang? MR NKOSI How, what do you mean? MR SHANE MR NKOSI Yes. ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI We wanted to destroy his followers and his house. ADV GCABASHE But this particular incident, what does it relate to? To both Mr Khumalo with his people inside the house, or just a attack on the house itself irrespective of who was inside? MR NKOSI The people who were staying there in the house was Khumalo and his boys and the soldiers who were safeguarding him and the other IFP members. ADV GCABASHE But on that particular day, was Mr Khumalo there? Were his followers, his gang, were any members of the gang there on that day? MR NKOSI They ran away. ADV GCABASHE They ran away as you approached or as you attacked? MR NKOSI They had information that there was an attack, that there would be an attack at the house. ADV GCABASHE So by the time you attacked they had fled and you attacked the house essentially? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE MR SHANE MR NKOSI Yes. MR SHANE Who is this person? MR NKOSI This is Mlazi Jabulane Dube. MR SHANE This is the person you murdered, or who was murdered on your orders, after he was taken from the Blue Light tavern. Is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Are you now at peace with the members of Inkatha and the Khumalo gang, is there now peace between you? MR NKOSI MR SHANE MR NKOSI Yes, I was shot. MR SHANE When were you shot? MR NKOSI It was in 1993. MR SHANE Who shot you? MR NKOSI MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman, that is evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANE Mr Chairman I confirm that this is the name that appears in the identity document where the photo is that was identified by the applicant. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman according to the death certificate this person. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP Sorry Mr Chairman I beg your pardon. According to the death certificate Mr Chairman this person was, died in Alberton, of unnatural causes on the 6th of September 1993. I think the applicant is referring only to September in his application. Mr Chairman, the family of the late Mr Jabulane Nyongwane is present today. His mother is here, Mrs Esther Nyongwane. She is opposing the application of the applicant on the basis that the deceased was never a member of the IFP ...(indistinct). I would beg leave to as a few questions with regard to the applicant on the first instance. In the second instance Mr Chairman I would also beg leave to ask if it will be possible for Mrs Esther Nyongwane to say a few words. She wants to testify. I explained to her this is a decision that you have to make, but she instructed me to ask a few questions on the membership. CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir, according to the mother of the deceased, Mr Jabulane Nyongwane, or Mr Vincent Jabulane Nyongwane, was never a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, or even a supporter. Do you have any comment on this? MR NKOSI Will you please repeat the question sir. ADV STEENKAMP MR NKOSI ADV STEENKAMP Can you maybe just indicate to us how did you establish that Mr Nyongwane was actually an IFP member? MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE He was seen patrolling with IFP members? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Did you personally see him patrolling with IFP members? MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI Yes, we have two Jabus. ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Excuse me, what is the surname of this other Jabu whose firearm was taken? MR NKOSI Sorry. MR SIBANYONI What is the surname of the Jabu whose firearm was taken? MR NKOSI Madi is the surname. ADV STEENKAMP NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE On the same issue, did you ask Jabu about his membership of the IFP? MR NKOSI No. ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI At that particular time there was no time to question because the order was already issued, one was supposed to do his job. ADV GCABASHE Did anybody else verify for you, the commander, that Jabu was indeed an IFP member? MR NKOSI That was heard when there was a meeting Khatlele School. ADV GCABASHE Now just help me understand this. Was this one report of one time that somebody saw Jabu with IFP members? MR NKOSI On that day of the meeting, we heard that it happened one Friday he was seen entering the Penduka section and at the time the people from the other section were not allowed to get into Penduka section because the people had already vacated their houses. Jabu was seen going to his home. He was coming from work. ADV GCABASHE So his parents, his mother, still lived in Penduka, and this where he was going to. Is that a correct summary? MR NKOSI I am not sure that he, I am not sure whether his mother is still staying there, but I see her sometimes. ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE But as I understand your testimony, you are saying that the incident that he was, or that the members referred to, was the one time that he went into Penduka after all your comrades had moved out of Penduka. Is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes, we were not at Penduka section at the time. ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE But you would not necessarily kill those people, because you knew that their families remained in Penduka. Or am I wrong? MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE So you are, am I correct in saying that it is quite possible in that case that he indeed was not an IFP member and that he was just visiting his family, on the occasion that he was seen going to Penduka after the cut-off date? MR NKOSI ADV GCABASHE MR NKOSI I do not have evidence to that effect. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. You said when he was called to a meeting, or he left the meeting, when he was told that you wanted to see him, is that correct? MR NKOSI Yes that is correct. MR SIBANYONI At that stage he had not been told about the allegations against him, when he left. Is that so? MR NKOSI MR SIBANYONI MR NKOSI I cannot tell because if the instruction was already issued that someone is supposed to be killed, all the soldiers knew that he was supposed to be killed. I cannot say anything about his safety, whether if he did stay he was to be safe or not. I cannot say anything about that. MR SIBANYONI So if we understand you correctly, there is no stage where these allegations were put to him, until the time the action was taken? MR NKOSI He had other comrades that were telling him and they told him that he is no longer trustworthy among the comrades. His only alternative was for him to come forward and explain his position. MR SIBANYONI So the basis of the suspicion that his is an IFP member was solely on the ground that he visited Penduka section? MR NKOSI MR SIBANYONI At which section was this tavern situated? MR NKOSI It was at Penduka section. MR SIBANYONI Was it frequented both by IFP people as well as people who were not IFP? MR NKOSI The tavern was frequented by us, but because of the situation that was, it became apparent to us that it was not safe for us to go there, so we decided to stay away from that tavern. MR SIBANYONI At that stage when you went to fetch him nobody but only IFP members frequented that tavern? MR NKOSI MR SIBANYONI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON You were commander of the area? MR NKOSI What area? CHAIRPERSON Slovo section and the Tokoza Garden section. MR NKOSI I was a soldier at Slovo section, at Tokoza Gardens I was a commander. I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens. CHAIRPERSON Now where this murder of Jabulane took place, was that an area in which you would have been a commander? MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Will you please repeat your question, sir. CHAIRPERSON Whether you were entitled by your status as a commander or not, in that area, you did in fact give the order for him to be shot. Not so? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you assumed at the very least the position or the rank of the commander in those circumstances when he was shot. Correct? MR NKOSI I was a former Self-Defence Unit from Tokoza Gardens. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens. I was working for Penduka, Penduka section, because there was no need to leave the firearms at Tokoza Gardens whereas the battlefield was Penduka section. Can I go on? As I was in Tokoza Gardens I was also a subordinate at Tambo Slovo section, as a person who was coming from Penduka section. But I would use the firearms from Tokoza Gardens at Tambo Slovo section. CHAIRPERSON Well answer this simple question for me. Were you entitled to give the order for ...(intervention) MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dube to be killed? MR NKOSI Yes because I was also instructed so I had to issue an instruction. CHAIRPERSON So you did no in your capacity as a commander. Do I understand you correctly? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And he would not have been shot without your order to do so? MR NKOSI He was going to be killed anyway. CHAIRPERSON Now then, there you first had to order it before it was done. Correct? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Yes, I know him. CHAIRPERSON And he testified to us here this morning that you know, it was almost policy to find out and make sure, especially about the position of those that were intended to be killed. Did you hear him say so? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And therefore there were sort of enquiries held before decisions to kill were taken. MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI The reason for that I do not know, but I was given an instruction to kill him, whether he was asked or not, but the instruction was issued. CHAIRPERSON At that meeting? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON How long before he died was that meeting, or did that meeting take place? MR NKOSI That, he was killed on the night of the meeting. I cannot remember the time. CHAIRPERSON Was the meeting on the same day? MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Some of us were so impatient, we did not have time to ask questions. We would act according to instruction and we would ask afterward, we would ask questions after the action. CHAIRPERSON But in your case you were commander. Not so? MR NKOSI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI There was no time for that. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON And that decision to kill him was taken without him being present? MR NKOSI The decision was taken after he had left the meeting. CHAIRPERSON And was he asked whether he was a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, at that meeting? MR NKOSI No, he was not asked. CHAIRPERSON Was he spoken to? MR NKOSI The other boys with him who wanted to bring him closer during his case. CHAIRPERSON Was he given an opportunity to confirm or deny his membership of Inkatha Freedom Party? MR NKOSI They were still busy with the others inside the office. They were coming in one by one. He was also in the list after the others. CHAIRPERSON So why was he then killed without being given an opportunity to say what his position was? MR NKOSI Maybe the commander who issued that instruction would be in a better position to respond to that question, but he is no more. I do not have any answer to that question. CHAIRPERSON You were there. MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you carried out that instruction through another instruction. Not so? MR NKOSI There was a lot of us in that meeting. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Have you made any attempt to visit them in order to talk to them and make peace with them? MR NKOSI No, but I am, I was willing just before this hearing, I was willing to do so. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI I requested a lady to accompany me because I did not want this to be heard in public. I wanted it to be a matter that would be discussed with the family, but unfortunately that did not happen. CHAIRPERSON If you get an opportunity to make your peace with them now, are you prepared to do so? MR NKOSI Yes, I have peace with the family. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON And? MR NKOSI I was not successful because it was already late, it was time to appear in front of this Commission. CHAIRPERSON Do you intend to pursue that aspect? MR NKOSI Yes, I am prepared to do so. CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mrs Nyongwane what language would you prefer to use? MRS NYONGWANE Zulu CHAIRPERSON MRS NYONGWANE ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Is she taking the oath? ESTHER NYONGWANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. MRS NYONGWANE MR NKOSI Mam ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MRS NYONGWANE ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman that will be all. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Nyongwane has said that the deceased stayed with you for six week before he was killed. You knew where his grandparents stayed, and where his parents stayed. What is your comment about that? MR NKOSI Yes, we knew. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what? MR NKOSI We knew where his parents were staying, but during that six weeks that she is talking about, I know nothing about the six weeks. CHAIRPERSON She says six weeks before he died he stayed with you. MR NKOSI No, he was not staying with us. He was at Vergenoeg. CHAIRPERSON Yes, she says at Vergenoeg with you. MR NKOSI No. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI No. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI As I have already indicated initially when I was giving evidence here, we used to be together, that is true, I never ran away from that truth. He was more like a home boy to us. Everything that she had said, that we would be in his home and we used to be happy in his presence at his home and I used to drive his car, that is true. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON And his mother wants to know also what happened to his clothes? MR NKOSI We left him there, we fled. CHAIRPERSON Do you know, do you not know how he lost his clothes? MR NKOSI No, I do not have an idea. CHAIRPERSON Now the most important question that she wishes to be answered by you, is why you never approached her. You knew where she stays, or stayed at the time. Why did you not approach her and tell her, this is what her son is getting up to, and maybe matters could have been sorted out that way. You knew her. MR NKOSI I want to say again that during those times people got injured and their families were known. There was no time to go and visit their families, or explain to the mothers, because in some families they did not even know what happened to their loved ones. That did not come to my mind, that such a process should take place, that people should go to the family of a suspect and report whatever. CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI I did not have time, because we were staying far away from her, and to get some information that would come from the meeting. No-one came as I saw him for the very first, I saw her for the very first time in a meeting as the people were going back to their places. I never used to see her, because this happened suddenly, and there was no time for me to go and report to the family, because the instruction was already, had been issued at the time. CHAIRPERSON For how long did you suspect that the deceased was indulging in IFP activities? MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON How long, two days, two weeks, two months? For how long did you suspect that he was dealing with the IFP? MR NKOSI Will you please repeat the question sir. CHAIRPERSON For what period before he died, was there a suspicion, or talk, that Mr Dube was indulging in IFP activities? MR NKOSI CHAIRPERSON MR NKOSI Quite a long time. I cannot mention in terms of months or days, but it was quite a long time. CHAIRPERSON More than one week? MR NKOSI Two to three years. CHAIRPERSON Years? MR NKOSI Yes, years. CHAIRPERSON And you never found a single opportunity to approach his mother during that period, because you were so busy? Is that what you are saying? MR NKOSI I did not have time to go to his family as this problem was in my hands. I did not have time to go and talk to his family. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Mr Chairman, if I may, just arising from that, just ask one question. Mr Nkosi, did you, when you gave the order, and when you were also given the order, that Jabu was to be killed, did you have any doubt, whether he was or not, what was in your mind, was there any doubt, as to his membership and support of the IFP? MR NKOSI Yes. I was suspecting him as, I was suspecting him, that he was an IFP member. MR SHANE Yes. Did you have any doubt about it? In other words, were you sure that he was an IFP member? CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane maybe that horse is going to be reincarnated, I think. ADV GCABASHE He had already answered the question Mr Shane. He said he suspected. He himself, suspected Jabu. MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman, that is evidence from this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE MR SIBANYONI Mr Nkosi the people who joined you, left Penduka and joined you at Vergenoeg, did I understand it correctly? MR NKOSI What people are you talking about? MR SIBANYONI People who did not want to be suspected to be IFP members, were given a deadline to move away from Penduka. Were they supposed to come to Vergenoeg? MR NKOSI Yes. But that was not only Vergenoeg, there was a no-go, a place that was declared a no-go area from Buthelezi, and the people who ran, fled to Tambo Slovo section. Therefore if you went, were beyond that no point you would be associated with Inkatha. Then from Buthelezi, beyond that point of Buthelezi, the people there were regarded as ANC members. MR SIBANYONI So did Jabu also leave Penduka and join you at Vergenoeg, for these six months the mother was talking about? MR NKOSI MR SIBANYONI But you did see him at Vergenoeg? MR NKOSI Yes. MR SIBANYONI Are you saying that you never knew that he was an ANC member? MR NKOSI No. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MACHINE SWITCHED OFF - NO FURTHER RECORDING