amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-03 METHODIST CHURCH, JOHANNESBURG 3 MR RADEBE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53172&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990203jh.htm CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON MR SIBEKO MR SIBANYONI MR SIBEKO The number has been confirmed to be correct, sir. CHAIRPERSON 0210 5393 08 3. Is that correct? MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, which language would you prefer to use? MR RADEBE Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? MR RADEBE (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Be seated. Yes Mr. EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Radebe, you have made an application for amnesty. Is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO You have also supplemented your application with a sworn statement that was signed in Alberton on the 1st day of February 1999. Is that correct? MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO Your application for amnesty, is it related to any Self-Defence Unit activities that occurred in Tokoza? MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO During the periods 1990 to 1993, were you part of any political structures? MR RADEBE Yes. MR SIBEKO Do you mind letting us know about those structures. MR RADEBE I was a member of Sanco, and executive member, sectional, Sanco executive sectional. I was a ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER May the applicant tune in to channel four. CHAIRPERSON Turn that thing to channel four. MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO Sir, you have indicated that you were an executive member of the sectional of Sanco. Were you an office bearer in the ANC youth league, or the ANC? MR RADEBE Yes, I was, I was a member of the executive committee. The ANC youth league, as well as the Sanco section, I was also an executive member. MR SIBEKO Now at what level were you an executive member of the youth league? Is it branch level, regional, national? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Yes, at some stage during your, during the period, you were involved in the Self-Defence Units. Correct? MR RADEBE Yes. I held, or I played some role in establishing the Self-Defence Unit. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that, that those Self-Defence Units were established as part of strategic plans, by the African National Congress, in order to defend its members against political attacks, physical political attacks? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, to a certain extent. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON We have been given numerous documentation and in previous hearings there has been testimony, as to the strategic basis for which Self-Defence Units were established, and how it works. Should there be aspects that we are not sure of, we will ask you. At the moment we have an appreciation for the basis for which the Self-Defence Units existed. MR RADEBE What I did ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well let me help you. To which SDU were you attached? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Now in what capacity did you serve on, can I call it a senior committee? MR RADEBE Yes, because there was a time when I was given firearms and it rested upon my responsibility to command others, so in a way I think I worked close with the senior, or the seniors of the organisation. CHAIRPERSON Were you a commander? MR RADEBE Yes, in that particular unit. CHAIRPERSON Now that unit, where would it operate? In which area? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE My unit was based in Penduka. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now, as a commander in that unit, what did you do in connection with the incidents for which you applied for amnesty? MR RADEBE First of all, there was a time after we combined with the unit from Polla Park, certain policemen were shot at night, and the Hippo, the police vehicle, Caspir that is, was, we took it and we used it to go to Katuza. CHAIRPERSON MR SIBEKO With your permission Mr Chairman. The application is for his involvement in the establishment of the units. The incident that occurred in 1991. CHAIRPERSON What crime would be involved there? MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) malicious injury to property, or arson, or something. What would that be? MR SIBEKO It would be malicious injury to property. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SIBEKO It would be malicious injury to property, to a vehicle belonging to Bishop ...(indistinct) Khumalo. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SIBEKO That will be all Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) two incidents but three crimes? MR SIBEKO CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) Mr Radebe, let us take the first incident. The one of the murder of the policeman. Can you tell us what your part in that incident was? MR RADEBE We were patrolling in the middle of the night in Polla Park, combined with the other unit. And police and soldiers came to harass the community. And we agreed amongst ourselves that the police are harassing us and yet the IFP was attacking during the day. We decided that we will shoot the police because of their acts. I took my firearm, and the other men took their firearms as well, and we left with the intention of going to kill. We shot indiscriminately, we kept shooting, until we got an opportunity to injure some of the policemen. But one policeman I saw in the morning, I realised he was dead. We decided to take the Caspir and use it for counter attacks to the hostel dwellers, because they had attacked previously during the day. And one colleague of mine drove the Hippo. If I remember very well, Nyauza was the name of the colleague who drove the Caspir. CHAIRPERSON Just hold on. Mr Sibeko, the taking of the Caspir, would that not have amounted to theft? MR SIBEKO It would amount to theft Mr Chairman. I beg leave it also be included. MR RADEBE Just towards Polla Park we decided to stop the Caspir and alight from the Caspir, and walked into the neighbourhood. MR SIBEKO Now sir, when you started telling us about this incident, you said you were with some men, and throughout you only mentioned Nyawuza who had been the driver of the Caspir. Who else was there? Who else was part of the group at Polla Park? MR RADEBE We were together with Umshala, our cousin, the one who was deployed by ANC, plus Nyawuza and Dlamini. Well I will not be in a position to furnish the real names of the other colleagues, because we used code names. Taking into consideration the fact that this happened some time ago I may have, or I have certainly forgotten some of the names. MR SIBEKO Now in carrying out this attack, was there anything that you gained? You as the group, that is the unit? MR RADEBE We did not gain anything. But because there was this attack, continuous attack, that day, carrying from during the day towards the night, we sort of believed that we should take it upon ourselves to go and attack as well. In other words we were satisfied by what happened. They attacked and we attacked as well, because really they attacked us for no apparent reason. MR SIBEKO Are you aware whether were the people who were attacked at Katuza who might have died, or injured as a result? That is when you got into Katuza with this Caspir. MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO So in the event that information is to be said to be true, you would also want to be given amnesty for such activity? MR RADEBE Yes, my request is that because of that atrocity that we committed I would like to be granted amnesty thereof. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Please repeat your question. The question is a bit ambiguous. CHAIRPERSON You are not certain what crimes were committed in that incident, are you? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON This all occurred during 1991? MR RADEBE Yes, I think between 1990 and 1991. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR SIBEKO Who is the Inkatha leader who went to the hostel to inspect the damage? MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO Now about the other incident where the bakkie of Mr, or of the bishop, was attacked. What happened? MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO So, you just indicate that the said bakkie was attacked. How, and what is the extent of the damage to the said bakkie? How was it attacked? What was used? And what was the extent of the damage? MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO Is there any other thing that you would want to add that is, that relates to this application, that is the incidences that you have mentioned today. MR RADEBE As we are well aware that there is peace and stability in the community of Tokoza, I think if Khumalo himself, or his, the organisation that he was affiliated, and people that sustained injuries as a result of this attack, I would like to voice out this plea. We should come together and reconcile in light of creating peace, this is essential for us to do. To reconcile and put back the past and move on peacefully. MR SIBEKO And you also would agree with me that the same sentiment also goes to other people who might have been harmed or hurt as a result of all the activities that you were involved in during the times of violence? MR RADEBE MR SIBEKO NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP "...I got an order as when needed. Did you, who was, can you first of all tell me who was your commanding officer, or did you have a commanding officer? MR RADEBE As I was explaining, that the organisation of ANC had deployed people. If there was a need and we were in a situation that we are able to protect the community, the gentleman called Mashana was the one giving instructions or orders to me. In other words, Mashana was the one issuing orders to me. ADV STEENKAMP And the actions for which you are applying for amnesty for, did he give you instructions to be engaged in these actions as well, or did he authorise these actions? MR RADEBE I did not out of my own volition do this, or authorise myself to act the way I did. But the Committee must be clear about one thing, that the situation that prevailed at the time in Tokoza, there are some place, especially when being attacked, there would be no time to wait upon the commander or instruction. You would have to act and use your own discretion and counteract the situation. You would have to decide there and then to do something without any issuing of an order whatsoever. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE I have no questions thanks. MR SIBANYONI On page two, paragraph 7, of your affidavit you are saying, "...There are several other incidents where I carried a firearm and fired shots in defence of our community and property." Were any people injured or murdered during those other several incidents? MR RADEBE MR SIBANYONI Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON The Caspir that was stolen. Why was it stolen? MR RADEBE Mr Chair, that Caspir we had to take. Number one, we were highly infuriated because during the day we were not able to attack back the attackers, IFP that is, because the very same stability Caspirs were escorting these IFP people to attack the community. Now the IFP was well protected by the police, and they had within their, on their possessions firearms, numerous of them. Now we had no-one to be on our side, or on our side, to reinforce us or to work hand in hand with us as Inkatha had police on their side as well as the soldiers. Now the way we viewed the police were, was in such a way that they were working hand in hand with Inkatha attacking the community. CHAIRPERSON And as I understand your evidence, is that broadly speaking the fighting was taking place between members of the, who were attached, to the IFP or supported the IFP, as against people who were members or associates of the ANC. MR RADEBE Please may you repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON Broadly speaking the fights that were occurring in the area, the battles, were being fought by members or supporters of the IFP as against members or supporters of the ANC, and their allies I suppose. MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. The IFP members were attacking the leaders and the followers of ANC as well as the community at large, because there were people who were harassed yet not politically affiliated to any of the organisations. And by the same token there were people that were killed from the IFP side who were not necessarily IFP members, but sustained injuries or were caught in this fire. CHAIRPERSON And one last question. During this attack on the van of Bishop Khumalo, did you also shoot? MR RADEBE Please repeat the last part of your question. CHAIRPERSON Did you also actively participate in the attack by shooting or doing whatever else? MR RADEBE Yes, I took part. I shot as well. CHAIRPERSON And that attack was the result of your order? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Now, this Caspir that you took also, was it taken purely for the purposes of facilitating the defence of people? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON In short and in plain language, it was not taken for the purpose of running a taxi business, but it was taken for the purpose of progressing your struggle. MR RADEBE First of all it was at night, people were asleep and we were ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibeko have you got any questions? MR SIBEKO None thanks, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SIBEKO Mr Chairman the other matters that I have are purely chamber matters. I therefore request that I be excused. CHAIRPERSON In the circumstances you are then excused. Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Where is he? ADV STEENKAMP ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED