amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-03 JOHANNESBURG 3 JIMMY NKOSINATI MAKHONDO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53173&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990203jh.htm ON RESUMPTION MR SHANE I will be able to now run the next three matters without any adjournments Mr Chairman. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Who’s the next? MR SHANE This applicant Mr Chairman is Jimmy Nkosinati Makhondo, and his testimony is on page 233 to 239. CHAIRPERSON Has he got an identification number? MR SHANE He does Mr Chairman, he knows it off by heart and I was going ... MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR SHANE Mr Chairman before you is Jimmy Nkosinati Makhondo, if he can be sworn in, I can CHAIRPERSON What is his ID number? Have you got it? MR SHANE He doesn’t have an ID document. He informs me he doesn’t have an ID document. He might know his ID number. CHAIRPERSON Advise him to get one otherwise he’s not going to be able to vote. Mr Makhondo, what language would you prefer to use? MR MAKHONDO Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objection to the taking of the oath? JIMMY NKOSINATI MAKHONDO (sworn, states) EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Mr Makhondo, your ID number is 771106 9456 08 0 is that correct? MR MAKHONDO Yes, that’s true. MR SIBANYONI Can I interrupt you sir? How do you pronounce your surname? MR MAKHONDO Makhondo. MR SHANE Right, Mr Makhondo, you were an ordinary member of the ANC and also a member of the Self-Defence Unit in Extension 2 Tokoza. Correct? MR MAKHONDO Yes, that’s true. MR SHANE You are applying for amnesty for attempted murder, and for the possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON What is he applying for? MR MAKHONDO That’s true. MR SHANE Attempted murder, and the possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition. The attempted murder happened on the 26th of November 1993, correct? MR MAKHONDO Nineteen ninety what? MR SHANE Three. MR MAKHONDO Yes, that’s true. MR SHANE Is it also correct that for these offences, attempted murder and the unlawful possession of firearm and ammunition, you were arrested, charged and convicted, and sentenced to 12 years imprisonment? MR MAKHONDO Yes, that’s true. MR SHANE In which Court did this happen? MR MAKHONDO Germiston Court. MR SHANE You have also appealed but your appeal has not been dealt with pending these proceedings. Is that correct? MR MAKHONDO Very true. CHAIRPERSON Mr Makhondo, tell me what happened on the 26th of November 1993. MR MAKHONDO It was in the morning around half past five, or five o’clock in the morning. I was given a command by my commander to patrol around and inspect the situation. ADV GCABASHE Just the name of your commander? It will help now. MR MAKHONDO Patrick Thandixolo Ngcobo. Yes, Patrick Thandixolo Ngcobo. MR SHANE Yes, can you carry on explaining. MR MAKHONDO I was approaching through the passage and I saw policemen driving three private cars. That marked the beginning of me investigating the way as to how they got there, and I had to take cover immediately because one of the cars passed. The second car was a car that belonged around the location and I knew it. The second car, that is I’m still referring to, parked by and there was one policeman and another ordinary man inside, black man. And they alighted from the car and they told me to throw away my gun, and I answered them, and I said, I’m not going to do as they instruct, and he started shooting. And I had to lie down on the ground and shooting back. After shooting twice one kombi approached behind, and there were six white men in that kombi, about six white men, and they started shooting as well. And I fled. And they tried to block me, and I went up the tree, I climbed up the tree, and shooting from the tree down I shot about six times towards them and they shot back. I fell down, that was after I got shot on my leg. MR SHANE So you got shot by these, one of these white people. Is that correct? MR MAKHONDO The person I suspect shot me was the black one, the one who was talking in Zulu, speaking in Zulu. He is the first man who told me to put down my weapon previously. CHAIRPERSON You clarified certain issues with him during consultation. Something troubles me. MR SHANE Sorry Mr Chairman ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker’s microphone is not activated. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) to explain my concern. MR SHANE Before that Mr Chairman ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker’s microphone is not activated. MR SHANE I think you misunderstood me. I was clarifying something with my next client Mr Chairman, not this individual, sir. The person I’m calling, the person that I was clarifying something to was a person called Jimmy, I mean Goodman Nyadise Mbuli. He’s the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON In the interests of your client I want to pose this question to him. On his evidence thus far, what crime did he commit? MR SHANE With respect Mr Chairman I’m about to lead him. The crime is attempted murder. I’m, he’s, with respect Mr Chairman his evidence, he’s giving his evidence. He’s not completed. It will emerge ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ... (inaudible) to cover it. MR SHANE Thank you sir, no it’s coming sir. ADV GCABASHE Can I just get a bit of clarity on one aspect. I’m sorry I just didn’t take note. Am I correct in saying that what happened was you were out on patrol, these three vehicles approached, essentially, you ducked for cover, they told you to give up your firearm, you refused to do so, and you shot and them, and shooting occurred. Is that essentially what you’ve said to us so far? After that a kombi with six white men came. Is that essentially what you’ve said? MR MAKHONDO Yes, that’s true. ADV GCABASHE I just didn’t get what happened after the six white men in the kombi came. If you can start from that point please. MR MAKHONDO When I started shooting towards the second car, private car, the one that I said it was familiar to me because it was from the location or the residential area, I was not aware of the kombi that was emerging as well. The only time I got aware of this kombi was when I started shooting. The third car I did not see. I only saw that car after I shot the familiar private car, and I started shooting towards that one now, the other car. MR SHANE When you shot into the vehicle with the six white policemen, why did you shoot? What did you want to achieve by it? MR MAKHONDO Shooting of this vehicle, the motive of this, to kill all the white, all the boers who were in that kombi. That was the only reason why, or the motivation why I did that. MR SHANE Now it’s also correct ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON This kombi, was that part of the three vehicles, or was that a fourth vehicle? MR MAKHONDO The three cars were together. CHAIRPERSON And the kombi, or was the kombi part of the three? MR MAKHONDO There were three cars, plus the, including the kombi. MR SHANE You said you wanted to kill the boers in that kombi. Was your life actually in danger at the time? In other words, you were not really defending your life when you did that. You just wanted to kill these whites because they were the enemy. Is that true? MR MAKHONDO The reason why I started shooting was to defend myself, because the second car I’m referring to, they had already pointed a gun towards me. MR SHANE After you got shot, who are the people that took you to hospital? MR MAKHONDO I was ferried by the same police to the hospital. In fact they pulled me down. I think I went up to the hospital about eight or nine at Greywater. MR SHANE Do you agree that it wasn’t the intention of the police to kill you, because if they wanted to kill you they would have anyway? MR MAKHONDO I would say that the reason, what they’d aimed at, was to kill me. The reason why I’m saying that is the, firstly, the first car saw me and ignored me. The second car, the person inside the second car said I should drop down my weapon. He started shooting first and I fell down and shot back. I think if I did not fall he would have killed me. MR SHANE Why were the police regarded as enemies? MR MAKHONDO In attempting to answer you, the police were harassing the community to an extent that two of my colleagues that was in my company one time ago, were apprehended by the police even after they were arrested by the police they were killed by the same police, in hospital. So there was corruption that was rife committed by the police. MR SHANE When you committed the act for which you were convicted, it was your intention to murder the white policeman, and nothing else. Is that correct? MR MAKHONDO That led to my conviction? Please repeat that question. I’m lost. MR SHANE When you shot at the vehicle with the six white policemen ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Why did you shoot at the kombi? MR SHANE Why did you shoot, what was the reason for you shooting at the kombi with the six white policemen? What was the reason? CHAIRPERSON Were the occupants of the kombi policemen? MR MAKHONDO Yes the occupants were policemen. CHAIRPERSON Now why did you shoot at that kombi? MR MAKHONDO What I knew very well was that once they arrest me it will be either they are killing me or taking me to the hostel, one of the two. MR SHANE So why did you kill them, sorry why did you shoot at them? MR MAKHONDO I was trying to run away from such or avoid being arrested by them. I just hated to see myself in their hands because they were going to take me to the hostel or do something to me. MR SHANE Now, what did you think you would achieve by shooting at them? MR MAKHONDO What was in, what occupied my mind was that, if the police would die in that car I would gain the firearms and ammunition in the car, and take that to the community. MR SHANE So, to cut a long story short you wanted to kill them. Is that right? MR MAKHONDO I wanted to kill them, yes. MR SHANE That’s, were you alone, or who accompanied you? MR MAKHONDO I was alone. MR SHANE That is evidence, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE ADV GCABASHE Thank you, can you just clarify one point for me? What happened to the first car? On what you’ve just told us. MR MAKHONDO The first car, that was the one that approached in the passage, and I was unaware about the car. It was a private car that was being driven by this boers. They were not the residents of Tokoza obviously, because the situation that prevailed at the time was violently and the police that were driving around the neighbourhood or the area, they will use police vehicles, Caspirs for instance, not private cars. ADV GCABASHE What happened to that car? MR MAKHONDO It went up straight towards the office road. What I think is that those were people who were going to the office to solve their problems, because even the second car had a police in it and an ordinary man in it. I never saw thought that there will be police, or the occupants of the car were the police or what, but I realised that after the second car emerged, that that could have been possible it was the police car. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman I don’t want to cause a further disturbance here, but according to the record and according to the applicant’s own application, there seems to be a pending appeal. This was now after the applicant was convicted in the regional Court in Germiston. I don’t know why that record could not be traced, but as far as I’m con - as far as I know those appeals are being dealt with by the Attorney General, which office is just next door here. And I think it’s in the interests of not only the, of the appellant but also probably the interest of justice, that record must be placed before you. I’ve asked our police officers and witness protectors whose here now, because we have the full details and the numbers of the appeal record, and I would ask permission for that applicant to stand down. Maybe we can start the next one while I’m waiting for the original record. Two copies will be made before say one o’clock, and be placed before you, if that can be allowed. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) going to use that record as a basis for cross-examination. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman probably but, probably or possibly, but I think it’s, that information will clearly be relevant to this applicant. CHAIRPERSON How long do you think it’s going to take to get those records? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman it’ll take me probably half an hour, quarter of an hour to get the information. By then I will definitely know the position and which sections will be relevant. The only difficulty will be it will probably be in Afrikaans, but I’m not planning to use the whole record, probably just the summary of, because in the record we’ll find the summary of the essential facts of indictment, and probably the summary of the sentence. I think those sections can be relevant. MR SHANE May I reply Mr Chairman? It’s quite clearly relevant, and I enquired from Sally Sealy about obtaining this when I first took instructions. I was informed that they tried to obtain these. There are no dockets. I was told there are no records, nothing, so if my, Mr Steenkamp thinks he can get it, I think he’s being very optimistic by saying he’s going to get it today. With respect sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp I’m going to take a tea adjournment now. Come report to us within the next 15 to 20 minutes. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman I undertake to not waste your time. It’ll take me about 15 minutes to 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes, so maybe we’ll take the tea adjournment now. Thank you sir. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO (s.u.o.) RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE ...(inaudible) the Commissioners what you told the Court, was that the truth or not? What you said in your trial. MR MAKHONDO All that I said in the Court of law was blatant lies. MR SHANE So you lied in Court. MR MAKHONDO Very true. MR SHANE And what you told the learned Commissioners this morning, is that the truth? MR MAKHONDO What I said to this Commission is the truth. MR SHANE Thank you sir, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED