amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-03 JOHANNESBURG 3 GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53174&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990203jh.htm MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Do you have an ID number for us? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbuli what language would you prefer to use? MR MBULI Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? MR MBULI No objection. CHAIRPERSON GOODMAN NEDISI MBULI (sworn, states) MR SHANE Mr Chairman the applicant applies for amnesty for the murder of one Pinpin Ramahesa and also he applies for amnesty for the possession of unlicensed weapons and ammunition. That is all. Mr Chairman I must ask the following to be recorded. The applicant also in his application applied for amnesty for the murder of Mkula Matulu Mbele. Now, Mr Chairman, after fully consulting with the applicant, it is quite clear that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON And you do so on his behalf? MR SHANE I do so on his behalf. CHAIRPERSON He is fully aware that you are doing so? MR SHANE He is fully aware that I am doing so. CHAIRPERSON It is so withdrawn. Carry on. EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Right, when did you join the Penduka Self-Defence Unit? MR MBULI Ninety. MR SHANE And when did you join the ANC? MR MBULI In 1990. MR SHANE While you were a member of the SDU you used to patrol, and on patrol you used to possess weapons, AK-47's as well as bullets. Correct? MR MBULI Yes. MR SHANE And your possession of those weapons was unlawful. Correct? MR MBULI Yes. MR SHANE Right. Now will you explain what happened during June or July of 1993, when you were on patrol with a certain person called Biza. MR MBULI We were patrolling the area. I suppose it was about five or six. As we were on duty patrolling Daganyewe found out that Pinpin and a certain lady Maria, but I did not see the lady, they were coming to move some property or some goods, and that was a no-go zone. After that as I was in possession of AK we jumped and Biza got left behind, and gave me the keys. I went to stand right next to the house, taking it upon myself that I was going to see and watch as to who was going out and Pinpin was going out with a basket. As he was already out of the premises, or out of the house, I shot at him twice. MR SHANE Now, can you tell what you knew about Pinpin, why did you shoot him? What was the reason? MR MBULI This Pinpin was always in the company of Khumalo. He was the one administering the activities of the community in the area, and will go and give the report to Khumalo as to what he discovered. I will say in simple language, he was a spy of Khumalo. MR SHANE When you say Khumalo, are you talking about the Khumalo gang which was mentioned before to this Committee, headed by a certain priest? MR MBULI MR SHANE And were you certain that Pinpin was a member of that gang? MR MBULI Yes. I am certain of that. I used to see him as well and oftentimes than not he will be amongst the gang and he will always be part of the gang that would have terrorised the area. MR SHANE What did you do after you fired the shots at Pinpin? MR MBULI Subsequent to that I went back and gave Biza the neighbour, and we left, and fled. He was lying down there on the ground, dead. MR SHANE ...(inaudible) was dead. MR MBULI I saw the Caspir the one that will fetch the corpses, and it also came to the scene. MR SHANE And did it take his body away? MR MBULI Yes, it did. MR SHANE Did you have any choice but to kill this person? MR MBULI I had no choice whatsoever. It was common knowledge and public knowledge that the said people with such behaviour and habits should be killed because they were terrorising the community together with his gang, Khumalo gang that is. MR SHANE Did you know this person from before, Pinpin Ramahesa? Was he a friend of yours? Did you know him? MR MBULI He was a well known figure in the community. I also knew him, but he was not my friend as such. CHAIRPERSON Do you yourself know if he belonged to a political party? MR MBULI Yes, I knew that Pinpin was a member of Khumalo gang. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) political party. MR MBULI The IFP. MR SHANE How do you feel now having killed Pinpin? Do you got anything to say about that fact that you killed him? Do you feel sorry about it? MR MBULI I had no other way but to execute this plan because of the situation that prevailed at the time. But as for now, I have this load of remorse, this is why I appear before the Commission. MR SHANE That is his evidence, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE ADV STEENKAMP NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE MR MBULI He was at his house. ADV GCABASHE Was that in a no-go area? MR MBULI Yes. ADV GCABASHE How did you manage to go into a no-go area, shoot Pinpin and come out of it without any difficulty at all. Just explain those circumstances to me. MR MBULI This way we use, or we were patrolling at the time. It was in our area, it was our area, and they had fled and they had come back to get their clothes or their property. ADV GCABASHE Had you been lying in wait for him, or did you simply come across him by sheer chance? MR MBULI It was sheer luck that we encountered this. ADV GCABASHE And how long before this incident did Thabo Sibeko, your commander give the order that Pinpin should be killed? MR MBULI This was common knowledge that such people who are patrolling together with Khumalo should be killed. ADV GCABASHE Are you able to give me an idea as to how long before the incident this general order would have been given to all the SDU members? MR MBULI ADV GCABASHE And one last aspect. You have said that Pinpin was an informer. Now I understand you to mean that he was informing on your activities as SDU members. Am I right? MR MBULI He was not only informing on us, but the entire community, so that anyone who will be doing something opposing Khumalo, or something Khumalo does not or did not like, then he would go and report such to Khumalo. ADV GCABASHE Now how did you know that he was passing this information on to Khumalo? Just what were your sources? MR MBULI ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you, Chair. MR SIBANYONI No questions, Mr Chairperson. MR SHANE That is all from this applicant Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED