amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-03 JOHANNESBURG 3 TANKISO KOENA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53175&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990203jh.htm MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Koena, what language would you prefer to use? MR KOENA Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to taking of the oath? TANKISO KOENA (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Be seated. MR SHANE Mr Koena you ...(intervention) INTERPRETER EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Sorry, Mr Koena you were a member of the Slovo/Tambo sections, Tokoza Self-Defence Unit. Correct? MR KOENA MR SHANE And you were a member of the ANC since when? MR KOENA Since 1990. MR SHANE A member of the Self-Defence Unit 1990, and you were an ordinary member? MR KOENA Yes I was a Self-Defence Unit member in 1990. MR SHANE You seek amnesty for the murder of Kraai Mambaso, is that correct? MR KOENA MR SHANE And also for possession of weapons and ammunition without a licence? MR KOENA MR SHANE Kraai Mambaso was murdered in 1993 during October or November. Is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Explain the circumstances as to how and why he was murdered. MR KOENA He was killed in the circle at Khumalo section, because he was an informer. MR SHANE An informer for who? MR KOENA He was internal stability unit informer. MR SHANE That is the internal stability unit of the former SAP? MR KOENA MR SHANE How did you know that he was an informer? MR KOENA The deceased Gamso told me that. MR SHANE Now when ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Which deceased? MR KOENA The name is Gamso. ADV GCABASHE His full names are Ivan Khumalo. MR KOENA That is correct, it is Ivan Khumalo. MR SHANE On this day in 1993, you accompanied Ivan Khumalo and other people, correct? You were with them? MR KOENA MR SHANE Who were the other people? MR KOENA MR SHANE Where are these people now? MR KOENA They are in gaol, both of them. MR SHANE Now what happened regarding the murder of Kraai? MR KOENA MR SHANE Right, now it is correct that you yourself were not armed, and you yourself did not in fact fire the shots at the deceased. Is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct, sir. MR SHANE And you were at all times aware that there was an order to kill the deceased Kraai? Is that correct? MR KOENA Yes I was fully aware, because Gamso was told me that Thabo Sibeko who was our commander had already issued the instruction. Thabo Sibeko is deceased. ADV GCABASHE MR SHANE Now you in fact told Gamso where Kraai was, and if you had not done so he would not have found the deceased in order to kill him. Is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct, sir. MR SHANE And when you pointed out the deceased Kraai to Gamso, you knew that he was going to be murdered. Is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct, sir. I knew that he was going to be killed. MR SHANE So that is how you played a role in his killing. Is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct sir. MR SHANE And you in fact had a common purpose with Gamso who actually did the shooting, to kill the deceased. Is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct, sir. I had the same intention. MR SHANE Yes, now before Kraai was shot, you knew him from before, he lived with you Tokoza. Is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct, I knew him. MR SHANE MR KOENA That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Who you also knew. MR KOENA Yes I knew her as well. MR SHANE MR KOENA MR SHANE And after that, he was shot, is that correct? MR KOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR KOENA She was present at the moment when this incident occurred. CHAIRPERSON Oh I see. MR SHANE Did this incident occur at the house where the deceased and his family lived? MR KOENA MR SHANE And his sister happened to be present at that same place? MR KOENA I do not understand, are you referring to when we are shooting him? Please explain your question. MR SHANE At the time when the deceased was shot, his sister was present at the same house where he was shot. Is that correct? MR KOENA No she was not there. MR SHANE Well explain when did you confront the sister. MR KOENA Please repeat your question. MR SHANE When did you confront the sister of the deceased? MR KOENA MR SHANE And did she know that you were going to, that her brother was going to be killed? MR KOENA Yes, she knew because she had already told us what to do, or what is normally done with an informer. MR SHANE Are you saying that the sister of the deceased in fact encouraged ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE That is correct. And he then, he asked the question, "What do we do with informers?" CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE Now after she suggests, after she said that informers, police informers are killed, was her brother then killed? MR KOENA Yes he was killed thereafter. MR SHANE MR KOENA MR SHANE Where is Gamso now? MR KOENA MR SHANE Are you aware that the family of the late Kraai Mambaso is present here today? MR KOENA MR SHANE Is there anything that you wish to say to them? MR KOENA Yes, I would like to say something to them. MR SHANE Proceed. Say it. MR KOENA Thank you. I would like them to forgive me because that was the situation that was prevailing at that time that led to his death. MR SHANE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Was he also known as Kraai Mambaso? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, my instructions is that the sister of the deceased is available and she is here today. She is opposing the application of the applicant. My suggestion at this stage is Mr Chairman, because of all sorts of reasons, that a sworn statement will be handed in in this regard. I would like, however, in fairness sake, to put a version of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No plan that she should testify? ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP MR KOENA ADV STEENKAMP MR KOENA Please rephrase your question. CHAIRPERSON You said that the deceased was a member of the Khumalo gang and therefore supportive at least of the IFP. The sister of the deceased is going to say that this not so, you are not telling the truth, he was in fact a member of the ANC. MR SHANE Sorry Mr Chairman, the reason is not that. The reason is he was an informer of the internal stability unit of the SAP. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. ADV STEENKAMP MR KOENA ADV STEENKAMP The reason for him to be killed was because he did make, or reported you to the police, in his capacity as a security guard working for Alert Industries, because according to the information she had he reported you for being involved in a car theft incident. MR KOENA CHAIRPERSON No, but what is being put to you is that the reason for him being killed was because he named you in a car theft incident. Whether the car theft incident was true or not is not the point. MR KOENA He reported the deceased, not me. CHAIRPERSON MR KOENA ADV STEENKAMP The last question to you is, if necessary a statement will be handed in, and a statement, a sworn statement will be handed in, where the sister will indicate that the deceased, her late brother was killed because there was a pending criminal action against you. MR KOENA That is not so, sir. ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. That is in broad lines the reason for the opposition of the application, and if you would allow me if time concerns I will later hand in a sworn statement, and a copy thereof will also be made available to my learned colleague as soon as possible. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Do you intend to call the sister now? ADV STEENKAMP The sister is present if you would allow that Mr Chairman. She can just testify quickly. CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP As you - I would then call the sister. CHAIRPERSON Wait, before, I just want to finish other aspects. ADV STEENKAMP Sorry Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. What did you know about the criminal matter? What did you know about the criminal matter that was pending viz a viz this theft of this car? MR KOENA I was not aware of that. I never stole any car. CHAIRPERSON Was there a case about it? MR KOENA No, sir. CHAIRPERSON Were you not arrested for car theft? MR KOENA No, sir. CHAIRPERSON And you never appeared in Court on charges of car theft or something related to a theft out of a car or whatever? MR KOENA No, sir. ADV GCABASHE Did Gamso say anything at all to you about this car theft? MR KOENA No, sir. No. ADV GCABASHE Where did you get your information that Kraai was an informer for the ISU? MR KOENA The deceased Gamso told me that. ADV GCABASHE No other source? Was Gamso your only source? MR KOENA ADV GCABASHE So when Gamso approached you as you were sitting outside, and asked you to guard Kraai, at that time did you know that Kraai was an informer, or did you only hear about it afterwards? MR KOENA I already knew. He had already told me. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Did I heard you say the alleged car theft was against Gamso? MR KOENA I did not know, maybe it was as to whether Gamso was stealing cars. I did not know. I did not hear that. MR SIBANYONI In other words you are hearing it for the first time today, about car theft. Are you hearing it for the first time today? MR KOENA Yes, that is correct. I hear it for the first time. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR KOENA Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp is this going to be a sworn, under oath, testimony under oath. ADV STEENKAMP THABATHA NGOZO (sworn, states) EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP Ms Ngozo, am I right in saying that you are the sister of the deceased in this matter, Morris Auri Ngozo? Is that correct? MS NGOZO ADV STEENKAMP Can you tell us for record purposes exactly when was he killed, when did he die? MS NGOZO He died on November the 20th, a Saturday afternoon, 1993 the year. ADV STEENKAMP Can you also tell us as far as your knowledge serves you, did the deceased belong to any political party? MS NGOZO He was ANC member. ADV STEENKAMP Can you tell us what was his occupation? What did he used to do for a living? Just before he died, or when he was killed. MS NGOZO He worked for Alert Industries Security in Alrode. ADV STEENKAMP Am I correct in saying this now near Germiston? MS NGOZO ADV STEENKAMP And what type of work did he do there? MS NGOZO He was a security guard. ADV STEENKAMP Now before we get to the incident itself, do you know the applicant before the Committee today? MS NGOZO I know him as a neighbour. ADV STEENKAMP For how long have you been knowing him? That is, how long did he stay next to you? MS NGOZO Since his birth, to date. ADV STEENKAMP Do you know, the deceased, if there was any connection between the deceased and the applicant? Were they friends, or what was the situation? MS NGOZO He grew in front of him. He grew up, in other words. ADV STEENKAMP MS NGOZO Yes, I dispute all this, because he has not yet begin to tell the truth. ADV STEENKAMP MS NGOZO First of all, he did not make mention of all the people he was with that day in question. CHAIRPERSON Were you present? MS NGOZO Yes I was present, but I did not see him when they shot him. I only met them as they were running away after the incident. ADV STEENKAMP MS NGOZO Yes. I can furnish you with the names. It was Dankiso, Siphiso who is in prison, Vusi as well is in prison, Oupa is in the residential areas at home, Mulefe is in prison as well. ADV STEENKAMP MS NGOZO ADV STEENKAMP The applicant before the Committee today was also present at the time in Court, and the case was proceeding? MS NGOZO Yes. ADV STEENKAMP In other words, was he actually charged with this incident? MS NGOZO Beki was convicted. There was nothing emerging as such until their conviction. After that, after their conviction in other words, Mulefe came back once again and said, I previously requested you to speak or talk to your brother that my colleagues must not be convicted, but all of that was to no avail. And I answered him and said there was nothing we could do, this was not within us, and he was working as a security man and we are therefore ineffective in this. In 1993 on the 20th of November he was killed, and was labelled as an informer of the police subsequently. ADV STEENKAMP Do you think there was any political context or motivation for the killing of your brother, as far as you were concerned? MS NGOZO ADV STEENKAMP Are you aware, was he ever involved in any political activity, in the specific area where he was staying? MS NGOZO In Vosloorus where he resided I have no information pertaining to that because he was not living with us. He had his own house in Vosloorus. All I know is that he was an ANC member. ADV STEENKAMP My last question to you. Is there anything else you would like to add to your testimony? MS NGOZO In summing up this whole evidence, I have no forgiveness whatsoever, because I tried to plead with them. I even asked them if they, if he was owing them, and if that was the case I was prepared to pay and reimburse, but they killed him fatally and in a strange house. And they broke, and they damaged so much property in that house, and in summation I will say I have no forgiveness towards these gentlemen. ADV STEENKAMP That will be the testimony. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Do I understand your evidence correctly that you spoke to them before they killed your brother? MS NGOZO Yes, I did speak to them before the incident. CHAIRPERSON What did you ask them? MS NGOZO CHAIRPERSON At that time when you pleaded with them for his life, you were told that he was going to be killed because he was at least thought of as an informer? MS NGOZO They told me at that point in time when I was talking to them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Just one Mr Chairman. Would you agree that there were, Mrs Thabatha, a lot of informers for the police at the time, in the township? MS NGOZO No, I have no knowledge in as far as that is concerned. MR SHANE MS NGOZO I will like to reiterate the fact that I was not living with him. All I know is that he was a security man. As to his activities I bear no knowledge. MR SHANE The applicant instructs me that he has no knowledge of any person Mulefe or Oupa, as mentioned by you. MS NGOZO I have no amnesty, or I have no forgiveness for Tankiso because the one who was busy behind the location of the late, was Tankiso, he was the one behind them discovering or finding the late in the house. MR SHANE MS NGOZO With regards to the stolen car I did make mention of the fact that Beki was convicted. Mulefe knows everything. These ones only took part in his killing. The only question I have for them is that why did they kill him, because he never fought with them and there was no fight or battle between them. Why would they want to kill him, or why did they ever kill him? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE ADV GCABASHE Did I understand you to say that this applicant was at the criminal trial? He attended the criminal trial concerning the theft of the motor vehicle? MS NGOZO He was not there. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV STEENKAMP May the witness be excused Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Your client is excused Mr Shane. WITNESS IS EXCUSED MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman. I can inform ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is that your lot for today? MR SHANE That's all I have today. I have no more applicants that I can bring before you today. I hope to see what logistics are, but tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON How many tomorrow? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON I trust that you will have consulted with him before Monday. MR SHANE I will be consulting with him at the prison, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP COMMITTEE ADJOURNS