amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-04 JOHANNESBURG 4 SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE AM 7363 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53177&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990204jh.htm MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Mr Motjale what language would you prefer to use? MR MOTJALE Zulu CHAIRPERSON Very well. Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE (sworn, states). CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. ADV STEENKAMP EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI In which year did you join the SDU? MR MOTJALE 1993. MS NHLAYISI At that time, who was your commander? MR MOTJALE It was Vusi. MS NHLAYISI Do you know his surname? MR MOTJALE MS NHLAYISI MR MOTJALE Yes. MS NHLAYISI MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI And for malicious damage to property, possession of firearms and ammunition, kidnapping, assault, and pointing a firearm. Is that correct? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI MR MOTJALE MS NHLAYISI Could you be clear and clarify what is it that your commander said that people could not understand about this particular person? Just elaborate on that. MR MOTJALE Gobani was person who used to be found at Penduka, that was IFP terrain at the time. MS NHLAYISI MR MOTJALE That meant that he was an IFP member. MS NHLAYISI MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. Most of the time he would be at the taxi rank that is in Penduka. He was queue marshall at the taxi rank. Marshall, queue marshall, at the taxi rank. MS NHLAYISI It was confirmed by him being there that he was a member of the IFP? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR MOTJALE The people were complaining about him because they knew that even at the taxi rank he was entreating people. He was later found at Tokoza. CHAIRPERSON But how does the question of his IFP membership come out? MR MOTJALE INTERPRETER MS NHLAYISI How was it established that he was a member of the IFP, or how did you get this information that he was a member of the IFP? MR MOTJALE We got that from our commander. The community approached our commander, and they told our commander about this person that used to be seen in our street. MS NHLAYISI To clarify what you mentioned earlier about this Gobani being a queue marshall. Where exactly was he a queue marshall? Was it at Tokoza or some other place? MR MOTJALE That meant that he was an IFP member. MRS NHLAYISI What you are saying basically is that this Qobani was seen at Penduka, at the place where only IFP members would have access, is that correct? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. Most of the time, he would be at the taxi rank that is in Penduka. He was a queue marshall at the taxi rank. MRS NHLAYISI It was confirmed by him that he was a member of the IFP? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON I don't follow that. Is it because he was a queue marshall that people thought, is that what would have made him a member of the IFP? MR MOTJALE The people were complaining about him, because they knew that even at the taxi rank, he was ill-treating people. He was later found at Tokoza. CHAIRPERSON How does the question of his IFP membership come up? MR MOTJALE Vusi came, he told us that there was a person that was being suspected in that street, in that particular street. They said he was an IFP member and they didn't know what was it that he was looking for. MRS NHLAYISI ... establish that he was a member of the IFP or how did you get this information that he was a member of the IFP? MR MOTJALE We got that from our Commander. The community approached our Commander and they told our Commander about this person that used to be seen in our street. MRS NHLAYISI ... mentioned earlier about this Qobani being a queue marshall. Where exactly was he a queue marshall? Was it at Tokoza or some other place, can you elaborate on that? MR MOTJALE It was in Tokoza, Khumalo Street, at the taxi rank. The taxi's that were using the Khumalo Street. MRS NHLAYISI It has come during our consultation that during the period of violence, people who belonged to the IFP, used their own taxis and the rest of the community, used other taxis, so on which of these two taxis was he a queue marshall? MR MOTJALE He was a queue marshall at the taxi rank at Khumalo Street. That was before the violence in Tokoza. MRS NHLAYISI During the violence, did he continue to work as a queue marshall at the taxi rank? Do you know or you don't know about this? MR MOTJALE No, I don't know. MRS NHLAYISI So you said you were given an instruction about this Qobani because it was said that he was an IFP member. What exactly was the instruction from your Commander? MR MOTJALE He told us to deal with this person, he told us to kill him because he was an IFP member, because even ourselves if we would be found in the IFP terrain, we would also be killed. MRS NHLAYISI Where exactly were you going to get hold of this Qobani, where were you going to find him to carry out this instruction? MR MOTJALE He came to us, the Commander came to us and he told us that this person was seen at Khumalo Street, standing at the bus stop and then he instructed us to go and fetch the AK47 rifles and we took two AK47 rifles, there were five of us, we took a taxi at Khumalo Street, we found him there. We took him into the kombi, we took him to Polla Park. We arrived at Polla Park, he was questioned as to what it was that he was looking for, because we had already told them that we had ... MRS NHLAYISI Okay, before you proceed. You said there were five of you to carry out that instruction, who were the other people who were with you when you went to pick him up in a taxi? MR MOTJALE It was myself, Themba, Mswazi, Quambi. I don't know the other boy's name because I just saw him for the first time on that particular day, and Vusi. MRS NHLAYISI Okay. You said you picked him up in a taxi, you took him to Polla Park. What was the purpose of you taking Qobani to Polla Park? MR MOTJALE He was to be questioned as to what was it that he was looking for in our section, Mlungeni Section. MRS NHLAYISI What transpired when you arrived at Polla Park? MR MOTJALE We showed him to the people there, we introduced him to the other Commanders. I don't know the comrade from Polla Park, Vusi and Themba were talking and they questioned him, but he said nothing and he was searched. His ID book was found and the card, membership card, and he was told to go to the playground at Polla Park. A firearm was pointed. MRS NHLAYISI You said when he was searched his ID document was found and IFP card, what do you mean? Was this an IFP membership card? MR MOTJALE Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, after he was searched, what happened then? INTERPRETER Could the speaker please repeat the questions. MRS NHLAYISI After he was searched, what happened? After you found that documentation, his ID document and his IFP membership card, what did you people do to him? MR MOTJALE He was questioned but he did not respond. He was told to go to the playground and the firearms were pointed at him. He went into the playground, he was shot at, but he ran towards Eden Park. He got into a police car that was in Eden Park. MRS NHLAYISI Do you know whether he was, there was anything done on him on that particular day, was he assaulted or anything? MR MOTJALE No. I heard nothing. MRS NHLAYISI Do you remember during our consultation you mentioned that although you yourself didn't assault him personally, but some other people did assault him. What do you say about that? MR MOTJALE Yes, he was assaulted. I think he was wearing a jacket, that jacket was taken off. He was standing on the other side, because there were other people who were questioning him. MRS NHLAYISI To who did you take Qobani to Polla Park, were you taking him to any specific person at Polla Park, or were you just taking him to a place in Polla Park for interrogation? What was the situation there? MR MOTJALE Our Commander instructed that he be interrogated, he be questioned, because the people wanted to know what is it that he was doing at Mlungeni. MRS NHLAYISI My question to you is why did you choose Polla Park? Did you choose Polla Park because you wanted to take him to a specific person who was going to conduct the interrogation or were you taking him to Polla Park, to a certain venue to interrogate him there? MR MOTJALE We were taking him there because in the township, there were people who were against ANC. There were informants, that is why we decided to take him to Polla Park. MRS NHLAYISI So these people that you mentioned that joined in in the interrogation, where did they come from? MR MOTJALE Will you please repeat the question. MRS NHLAYISI You said on your arrival in Polla Park, there were other people who assaulted him and you just stood by and watched, where did this people come from? How did it come about that they joined you? MR MOTJALE This boy who was in our company, is the one who got inside in one of the shacks and he came out with another gentleman. Then he called the others. MRS NHLAYISI With this particular incident, is there any stage where firearms were used, where he was pointed with firearms or something of that nature? MR MOTJALE Yes, because during questioning the firearms were pointed at him. MRS NHLAYISI Did you point him with a firearm? MR MOTJALE I did when we were taking him into the kombi, when we arrived there at the spot, this other guy took the firearm. After questioning him, they instructed him to go into the playground and he was shot at. MRS NHLAYISI Do you know who shot at him? MR MOTJALE I don't know his name, it is someone that I did not know very well. MRS NHLAYISI Do you know the owner of the kombi that you used in transporting Qobani to Polla Park? MR MOTJALE No, we just stopped a kombi. MRS NHLAYISI How did you take this kombi, did you take it and drive it yourself or did you request this person to assist you in transporting Qobani to Polla Park? MR MOTJALE The owner, we stopped the owner of the kombi and he asked him to transport us to Polla Park, but we are not yet at the spot where Qobani was and then we opened the sliding door and we instructed him to stand at a spot where Qobani was and we pointed him with firearms and we took him into the car. I don't know the owner of the kombi. MRS NHLAYISI What I am trying to establish from you Mr Motjale is, you didn't take this kombi by force or you didn't in any way force the driver to take you to Polla Park. He requested him and he agreed to assist you? MR MOTJALE We did not force him, we requested him to help us and he agreed. MR SIBANYONI I am sorry, how were you holding your weapons? Were you concealing your weapons or were they open? MR MOTJALE They were concealed. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON So the driver could not have felt threatened or pressurised into giving you a lift? MR MOTJALE I don't know whether he was threatened or not, I did not take notice. I did not take notice. We were wearing duster coats and we just stopped the taxi and we asked him. MRS NHLAYISI You are saying that on this specific day Qobani managed to run away, he was shot at. Do you know whether he suffered any injuries on this particular day? MR MOTJALE I do not know because he ran away. He did not stop. When he was instructed to go into the playground, two boys were shooting and the other one from Polla Park, they were shooting and we just saw him running away until he arrived at the other side of Eden Park. MRS NHLAYISI So you didn't observe any shots that struck him? MR MOTJALE No, because he was at a distance and he was also running away. MRS NHLAYISI The fact that on that particular day, you yourself didn't fire any shots, can you say you agree with what was happening to Qobani at the playgrounds as he was assaulted and shots were fired to him? MR MOTJALE This other comrade wanted the firearm that was in my possession. It was not yet mentioned at that time that Qobani would be killed. I gave him the firearm. CHAIRPERSON But didn't your Commander make that order prior to his kidnapping? MR MOTJALE Will you please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON Did your Commander not order his death even before he was kidnapped? MR MOTJALE The Commander said something just before he was fetched, he said shoot, kill just before we could go and fetch him. He told us that he should be questioned. He instructed that he be killed. CHAIRPERSON So when he was kidnapped, when you participated in his kidnapping, you knew that the kidnapping was to facilitate his killing, not so? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And at that time, it could even have been him who was going to shoot him, not so? MR MOTJALE Will you please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON At the time you helped kidnap him, no one knew who was going to shoot him, correct? MR MOTJALE I also did not know who was going to shoot him because that was not discussed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it could even have been you that would have been instructed later to shoot him? You knew that? MR MOTJALE I did not know because we had only two AK47 rifles and one pistol. CHAIRPERSON And you were armed with one of them, one of the firearms? MR MOTJALE Yes, I was armed with an AK47 rifle. CHAIRPERSON And if the Commander have ordered you to shoot him, you would have done so? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the fact that someone was told or someone else shot him, didn't matter, you agreed with that, not so? MR MOTJALE We knew that IFP members, whenever they get hold of you as an SDU member, you would be killed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that was the reason for him being kidnapped, correct? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, all these things that occurred to the victim, as I understand your evidence, you associated yourself with that, not so? Everything that happened to him? MR MOTJALE Yes, I associated myself with all these activities because I was forced by the situation. CHAIRPERSON Yes. That is attempted murder, the kidnapping, the assault. You yourself pointed a firearm at him, and you were in possession of a firearm illegally, correct? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Nhlayisi, I don't recall us dealing with the (indistinct) MRS NHLAYISI Yes Mr Chairperson, we are coming to a second incident involving the same person, but which happened in a house. That is where the malicious damage to property come in. Yes, there is another attempted murder on the second incident, on the same person. It relates to the same person, but this time it happened in a certain house. CHAIRPERSON ... attempted murders, yes. Then I need to find out also the incident you are now describing or that you have just described, when did that happen? MR MOTJALE In 1993. CHAIRPERSON Can you be more specific? I will tell you why, we are now being told there are two incidents and if we, we are going to have to decide on both and we need to identify each by way of a relatively ascertainable date, maybe a month or something. MR MOTJALE I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON Did both happen in the same month? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON On page 220 there is an indication that it was September 1993? MR MOTJALE I cannot remember the month. CHAIRPERSON Would you be able to dispute that it was September 1993? MR MOTJALE No, I cannot dispute that because I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON Okay. The first incident that you have described already, would that have occurred in the early part of September or the later portion of September? MR MOTJALE I think it was towards September. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but when in September? Early in September or late in September? MR MOTJALE I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Proceed. MRS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Motjale, can you remember when we consulted with you and your other colleague, you mentioned that the first incident that you have related here, occurred in September and the second one, occurred a week thereafter. Do you still confirm that? MR MOTJALE Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, let's come to the second incident where Qobani was shot at in a certain house at Xaba Street. Could you relate to the Committee what transpired on that day? MR MOTJALE It was found out that Qobani did not sustain injuries. He went back. It was discovered that Qobani did not die or sustain injuries as he was shot. One of us, Quambi, told us that Qobani was at Xaba Street. MRS NHLAYISI Where is this Xaba Street, is it in your Section, in Mlungeni Section? MR MOTJALE Yes, it is at Mlungeni Section. MRS NHLAYISI Okay. In your application form on page 220 you mention that the house there, it is 2190 Xaba Street, however during our consultation you realised that you have made a mistake, the house number there is 2192 Xaba Street, do you confirm that, where this particular incident took place? MR MOTJALE Yes. Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, after you had received this information that Qobani has been seen at this particular house, number 2192 Xaba Street, what happened then? MR MOTJALE Our Commander told us again that the person was around. I cannot remember but I think he was told by a certain woman who was staying there. MRS NHLAYISI You do not know the identity of this particular woman who gave the information to your Commander, is that correct? MR MOTJALE No, we got that information from our Commander that this person was seen in that street. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, so after you were told that Qobani has been seen at Xaba Street, what were the instructions? What were you commanded to do then? MR MOTJALE The Commander told us to kill this person, the person was no longer needed in the community, because the IFP people, they killed any SDU member if he can set his or her foot at Penduka Section. He gave us two AK47, we were three, and he told us to go and kill that person. MRS NHLAYISI You were three, who were the other two people with you? MR MOTJALE It was myself, Themba and Mswazi. MRS NHLAYISI When you are referring to Mswazi, you are referring to Mswazi Puncumalo who has also applied for amnesty, is that correct? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is correct. MRS NHLAYISI Where is Themba at present? MR MOTJALE He passed away. MRS NHLAYISI So the three of you were given these instructions to go to this particular house? MR MOTJALE Yes. MRS NHLAYISI You set off, what happened on your arrival there? MR MOTJALE We knocked at the door, someone asked, enquired as to who was at the door, and a friend of mine said my name is Peter, that was Themba. Themba said he was Peter. MRS NHLAYISI Was it at night? MR MOTJALE Yes, it was at night. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, then what happened after this person inside has enquired about your identity? MR MOTJALE He did not open the door. He or she did not open the door. We knocked for a short time. The door was not opened. There was a padlock outside that was used to lock the door. Themba shot at the padlock, because we knew that there were people inside. When he shot at this padlock, the door couldn't open still. MRS NHLAYISI What happened, did you leave after the door could not open? MR MOTJALE No, we did not leave. We waited for a while, we wanted to see if they were going to open the door. We went to the front door and the front door was also locked. He broke the window pane at the bedroom, the one that was on the left hand side. MRS NHLAYISI Before you proceed, sorry, you are saying he broke a window. You were with two people, who broke the window? MR MOTJALE Themba is the one who broke the window before the shooting. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, then what did you do? MR MOTJALE I shot directing at the kitchen window. MRS NHLAYISI After this shooting, did you manage at any stage to gain access into the house? MR MOTJALE We shot directing at all the windows, after that we opened the window. I was told to get inside first, in the kitchen. When I got inside, Qobani appeared with a spear. MRS NHLAYISI He was inside the house? MR MOTJALE Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, what happened? You still had your firearm at that stage when you got inside the house, through the window? MR MOTJALE Yes, I still had my firearm because after getting into the house, I went straight to him. MRS NHLAYISI How did you identify this person who was inside the house, as Qobani because it was at night? Was the house lit? MR MOTJALE Yes, the light was on. The (indistinct), the streetlight outside, the light could lit the dining room of the house. The light from the streetlight, and I knew, I knew Qobani. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, so you are saying through the assistance of this light in the street, you could identify this particular person who was in the house as Qobani? It was well lit for you to can identify this person? MR MOTJALE No, it was not well lit, but at least one would be able to identify a person. MRS NHLAYISI After you got into the house, what happened next? MR MOTJALE We fought, he had an assegai, he stabbed me with that assegai. I lost my firearm as I was struggling this assegai, because he had already stabbed me at the time. MRS NHLAYISI Did you manage at any stage during that incident, to fire any shots at him? MR MOTJALE No, it was not possible for me to shoot at him because he was nearer, he was very close to me, I couldn't shoot him. He had a short assegai. He stabbed me and we were struggling and I was trying to get hold of this assegai and I lost my AK47 in that process. MRS NHLAYISI How did you manage to get out of the house? MR MOTJALE We did not leave the house until Themba came in. He stabbed him with a sharp object from the AK47. There is something that is like a knife and it is embedded in the AK47, he used that thing to stab him. MRS NHLAYISI You are saying Themba stabbed Qobani with that object from the AK47, is that correct? MR MOTJALE Yes, he stabbed him with that and he started fighting with him now. They were fighting and I went out of the house and I fired. MRS NHLAYISI So at some stage, because you said initially you lost your firearm or your AK47 in the struggle with Qobani, at some stage you managed to get hold of it again and you fired. At who did you fire? MR MOTJALE He was now fighting with Themba as Themba was holding an AK47. When he left me alone, I was already stabbed in the neck with that sharp object that he had. As he was still fighting with Themba with this AK47, I took my firearm and I fired. MRS NHLAYISI Did your shot strike him, could you see whether he was struck by your shot that you fired when he struggled with Themba? MR MOTJALE I shot and after that I saw him falling at the dining room door. MRS NHLAYISI Were you shooting at close range? MR MOTJALE Yes. MRS NHLAYISI So when he fell, you assumed that you have hit him with your bullet? MR MOTJALE Yes, because I saw him falling. I told myself that I did hit him. I was a bit dizzy because I was also stabbed. MRS NHLAYISI So you cannot tell this Committee today on which part of his body, if he was hit, as to where on his body was he hit? MR MOTJALE I cannot tell because I just shot and I saw him falling and I was dizzy. I just saw him falling after the shooting, and I also fell. Themba came to my rescue. MRS NHLAYISI When you completed your form for amnesty, that was in 1997, you stated that you killed this particular person. Why is it so when actually this person was still alive, did you say that he was killed in this particular incident? Can you give an explanation? MR MOTJALE It is because I assumed, because I know that a firearm can kill a person. I told myself that he was dead because I saw him falling. CHAIRPERSON You went there to kill him, you shot him and therefore you thought you had killed him? MR MOTJALE Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Is there anything else that you have left out regarding these two incidents that you have mentioned that you wish to bring to the attention of the Committee? MR MOTJALE I am not sure. CHAIRPERSON When you remember, if you remember anything, then you can raise it. Do you understand? MR MOTJALE Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Today you are here for an application for amnesty. Do you wish to say anything in particular to the victim, to the person that you have kidnapped and you have attempted to kill? Is there any particular message that you would like to send to him? MR MOTJALE I just want to say that we were forced by the situation at the time, and we were also having our own Commander. CHAIRPERSON Do you see him in the hearing today? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to address him? Do you wish him to hear what you want to say? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Well then, proceed. MR MOTJALE I am applying for amnesty. I was not prepared to do such a horrible thing. I want to apologise to him, I apologise for what I did. I apologise for what I did to him. MRS NHLAYISI Thank you very much Mr Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS NHLAYISI ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I have no questions, however, I am instructed to make one remark on record to the applicant on behalf of the victim, if I may do so. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, although the victim feels he is not opposing the application, he is saying that he has suffered a lot because of the seriousness of his injuries. Today he is still suffering, he still has a lot of pain which changed his life, and he feels that the applicant will never or can never do anything that will change this, and he feels at this stage without meeting the applicant, he is not in a position to forgive or to forget this incident which changed his life forever. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Maybe Mr Steenkamp, was he ever struck during that shooting, did he sustain any injuries - was not able to specify? ADV STEENKAMP I am sorry, sorry Mr Chairman, yes indeed, the victim was seriously injured by the shooting incident. He spent a lot of time in the Natalspruit Hospital before being released. We don't, unfortunately have the medical records, apparently they are not available Mr Chairman. He was injured, shot in the thigh, there was also other injuries to his body which changed him, he had to undergo a few operations as well and even today, he is suffering from that. He is unfortunately not in a position to supply any further details of his specific injuries Mr Chairman. Thank you sir. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Mr Motjale, just help me understand exactly what you are saying. Are you essentially saying that you had no personal knowledge of Qobani's activities? MR MOTJALE No. ADV GCABASHE You are saying you too knew of Qobani's activities before Vusi told you about them? MR MOTJALE Vusi came to tell us that there was a person that looked more like a suspect because the people from that area, used to come to him and complain and try and get some information. ADV GCABASHE Yes, I understand you to say that, but my question really is, you personally, did you know about his activities or the other way of looking at it is, were you simply following orders because Vusi said certain things and you were a member of the SDU under Vusi's command, you then did certain things? This is what I am trying to understand. MR MOTJALE No, I had no personal knowledge, but Vusi was our Commander. ADV GCABASHE You lived at Mlungeni Section, 2192 Xaba Street in Mlungeni Section, was that Qobani's home? MR MOTJALE No, he used to visit that house, just before the violence. ADV GCABASHE Then just in terms of who had the authority to give particular orders, I understand the kidnapping fell within Vusi's jurisdiction, he gave that command. He also mentioned that Qobani should be killed. I am right about that? MR MOTJALE Yes. ADV GCABASHE You then went to Polla Park and you talked about Themba fetching some other chap from one house, this other person called the rest of the community. Who was in command at the time, who was giving the orders at that time? MR MOTJALE No one was responsible for commanding the group. Anyone would just say something or pose a question. ADV GCABASHE That final order that Qobani should be killed at Polla Park, who gave that final order or was it just a general agreement by everybody, just help me with that? MR MOTJALE It was the agreement from the group that this IFP person should be killed. ADV GCABASHE Then one last aspect, I wasn't too sure about your participation in the assault. I am not sure if you participated in the assault or whether you simply observed others participating in the assault of Qobani at Polla Park, or whether you were not there at the time of the assault at Polla Park. Just help me with that. MR MOTJALE I was present, but I did not take part because it was chaos. They were pulling him towards the playground. ADV GCABASHE Finally, when you shot at Qobani the second incident at Xaba Street, you shot at him, you were inside the house with an AK47 and he was still struggling with Themba at the time? Did I get that right? MR MOTJALE Yes, I was inside the house, we were inside the house. ADV GCABASHE How did you know you would not hit Themba instead? I am just trying to picture this. MR MOTJALE He was at the place where it was brighter. The light was brighter. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. MR SIBANYONI Just to follow up on Adv Gcabashe's question. Themba was not hit during that shooting? MR MOTJALE Yes, he was not hit because I fired only once. MR SIBANYONI No further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are things peaceful there in Tokoza now? MR MOTJALE After what happened, there was no peace. We couldn't look one another in the eye. CHAIRPERSON I am talking about now, today? MR MOTJALE Qobani does not reside there in my street. CHAIRPERSON Listen to me carefully, it is not only you and Qobani who caused the problems there in Tokoza, I am asking if it is peaceful there today or is there still trouble? MR MOTJALE No, there are no problems. CHAIRPERSON Are people living with each other in peace now? MR MOTJALE Yes, that is in the process because the people had gone back to their houses. CHAIRPERSON Is the fact that there are people who belong to different political parties, tolerated now in the area? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And from what you say now, it seems like people can live together, whether they are members of IFP or the ANC or any other party? MR MOTJALE Yes, because we are able to move freely at Penduka Section and the IFP members from Penduka, they are free to go to our area, to Mlungeni and the other places. CHAIRPERSON And people are talking to each other now? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON I am pleased to hear that. Do you say Qobani doesn't live in the area any more? MR MOTJALE He never used to stay there, he used to visit. CHAIRPERSON Have you never tried to go to house 2192 Xaba Street, to go find out where you could find Qobani for the purposes of making peace with him and to tell him personally how sorry you were like you said today? MR MOTJALE No. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR MOTJALE That has been in my mind, but I was also scared. CHAIRPERSON Of what? MR MOTJALE About what happened. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but you tell me that people are now appearing to be living with each other peacefully, talking to each other and tolerant of each other's political choices. What would make you scared to make to him to say, and tell him personally how sorry you were about it, and to encourage people not to repeat these things? MR MOTJALE I couldn't go there because I only knew that Qobani was dead, that is why I was scared to go there. I only knew that Qobani was dead. CHAIRPERSON When did you find out that he was alive and that you wouldn't be speaking to a ghost? MR MOTJALE I got that information when this issue of the Truth Commission was raised. CHAIRPERSON If it could be facilitated that you meet him to talk to him, maybe between your Attorney and the Evidence Leader, would you be prepared to talk to him, despite what he has just said? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON These battles that raged in the area, it may not have been the worst in the country, or perhaps it was, one never knows, do you regret that that has happened? MR MOTJALE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON And that really our own people were killing each other, not so because of somebody or some other agenda? Do you agree? MR MOTJALE Will you please repeat the question sir? CHAIRPERSON That this senseless battle where our own people were being killed, seems to me to have been the result of other people or other institutions or other parties' agendas and should not have happened at all, would you agree? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Have you yourself learnt about those mistakes now? MR MOTJALE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, what is the full name of the victim? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, it is actually I will spell it, it is Jephanos and the correct surname is Dube. There is also the nephew, Mr Mandla Elios Soko. He is also here today. CHAIRPERSON Does he become a victim? ADV STEENKAMP Just sir by the fact that he was next of kin or family member, related family member. He is not directly, can be seen directly as a family member, but he was next of kin, and at one stage I think, he stayed in the house that was attacked. CHAIRPERSON Let's get Mr Dube's address. ADV STEENKAMP Please Mr Chairman, if you will just allow me a minute. Mr Chairman, I can maybe just say in the meantime if I may be allowed ... CHAIRPERSON You can give us his address in chambers. What is the second ... ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, if I may, the feeling of Mr Dube is that if it can be facilitated, he feels he is in a position to speak to the applicant about what happened and he is prepared to make his peace. INTERPRETER Can the speaker please speak a bit slowly because the Interpreters are struggling to hear him. ADV STEENKAMP I am just saying sir, the applicant has indicated to me now that he is willing and able to speak to the applicant, if that can be facilitated. Mr Chairman, the second victim is Mr Mandla Elios Soko. The correct address Mr Chairman, of the victim is 2192 Xaba Street, I am sure I am pronouncing it incorrectly, but it is spelt Xaba Street, Tokoza. CHAIRPERSON Whose house was it that was damaged? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, as far as I can establish, it belonged to the whole family, but the victim at one stage, stayed there. During the attack he stayed there as well. In the second incident, he stayed in this house. He used to stay in this house. CHAIRPERSON The victim in the sense of the damage, related to the damage caused to the house, would really be the owner who was almost obliged to fix it up and we need to consider whether we should refer that to the Reparations Committee and therefore we need to know who the owner was and of course it would be the same address. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, that is exactly one of the problems that we are trying to establish because apparently this house was rented from somebody and we will find that information. We will do so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You have heard that the victim has had a change of heart and I would request your Attorney and the Evidence Leader to facilitate that meeting, possibly in private, I am not too sure what is required. I just want to say to the victim that I am pleased that he is able to see his way clear to do so because the time has come for us to live together as we should have been doing over the last 300 years. We all should consciously avoid a repetition of what occurred in recent times in our country. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, the owner of that house was at that stage Mrs Lena Soko, Lena Soko, that was the actual, physical owner of the house. Thank you Mr Chairman.