amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-04 JOHANNESBURG 4 MSWAZI PONI XUMALO AM 7281/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53178&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990204jh.htm MRS NHLAYISI Mr Chairman, my next application is related to this one in terms of incidents. The name of the applicant is Mswazi Poni Xumalo. CHAIRPERSON Where would his application be found? MRS NHLAYISI It is on page 226 and case number AM7281/97. CHAIRPERSON What language would you prefer to use? MSWAZI PONI XUMALO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You don't have to come close to the microphone, they are special microphones which are very sensitive, and can pick up your voice as you sit normally, do you understand? MR XUMALO Very well. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you can relax and your Attorney can ask you questions. EXAMINATION BY MRS NHLAYISI Mr Chairman, before I proceed, may I supply the Committee with the ID number of the applicant? 751027 5384 08 0. CHAIRPERSON What is he applying for? MRS NHLAYISI Mr Chairperson, as I have indicated before, that he was present in both incidents that has been mentioned by the previous applicant, he is also applying for two attempted murders relating to the same person Qobani, possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, malicious damage to property, kidnapping, assault and pointing a firearm. Mr Xumalo, you were also a member of the SDU in Mlungeni Section in Tokoza, is that correct? MR XUMALO Yes. MRS NHLAYISI When did you join the SDUs? MR XUMALO I joined in 1992. MRS NHLAYISI Who was your Commander in Mlungeni Section? MR XUMALO It was Vusi. MRS NHLAYISI When the previous applicant, that is Mr Motjale testified, you were seated inside this room, is that correct? MR XUMALO Very true. MRS NHLAYISI He mentioned an incident relating to kidnapping one Qobani and taking him to Polla Park and in his testimony he mentioned that you were one of the people who participated in this incident. Do you confirm that? MR XUMALO Yes, that is true. MRS NHLAYISI You heard his testimony relating to this particular incident. Do you agree with what he has told this Committee or is there anything that you believe he has left out that you wish to mention? MR XUMALO The way he said it, I do concur with that. CHAIRPERSON Are you able to give us dates, he was unable to? Perhaps your memory serves you better? MR XUMALO I have no recollection of the dates as well, but it was around September, because it was right towards December. MRS NHLAYISI With the incident in Polla Park, did you associate yourself fully with what happened there to the victim, Qobani, I mean relating to his kidnapping, assault, attempted murder and pointing a firearm at him? Can you say today that you are disassociating yourself to any of those things that happened there? MR XUMALO I concur with the version of the former applicant. MRS NHLAYISI So you are associating yourself with what happened there? MR XUMALO Yes. MRS NHLAYISI And the incident that took place at the house, 2192 Xaba Street, what role did you play there? MR XUMALO I had in my possession a palm gun, self made gun, we shattered the windows, that is what I did. As to enter into the house, I did not, I was always, all the time, outside. CHAIRPERSON You went there in order to facilitate the killing of the victim? MR XUMALO I think if we were able to drag him to the outside, I think I would have played an active role. CHAIRPERSON No, but in other words you associated yourself with whatever occurred inside the house also, even though you never went into the house? MR XUMALO I don't understand. CHAIRPERSON You were one of three people that went to that house with an order to kill the victim, not so? MR XUMALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You armed yourself for that purpose essentially? MR XUMALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON That you didn't get into the house, made no difference to the plan to which you were party, correct? MR XUMALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON And therefore you associated yourself with the activities or actions of your two colleagues as it occurred inside that house? MR XUMALO Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Xumalo, these two incidents as they were told by your colleague, Mr Motjale, do you agree with everything that he has said or is there anything else that you would wish to add that you regard as of importance that the Committee should know about, relating to these two incidents? MR XUMALO There is nothing he left. I believe what he said is exactly as it happened. MRS NHLAYISI Do you have anything else that does not relate to Mr Motjale, that you - an incident that only you were involved, that you wish to put before this Committee? MR XUMALO No. MRS NHLAYISI As you were sitting in the room and I believe you heard that a meeting will be facilitated between the victim and Mr Motjale, do you also wish to be part of that meeting in order to facilitate good relations between yourself and the victim? MR XUMALO Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON That meeting goes further than personal relations, do you realise that? MR XUMALO I did not hear you. CHAIRPERSON That meeting in an attempt to facilitate good relations, goes further than merely personal relationships, do you understand that? MR XUMALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON It goes much further, because it is an attempt to restore the fabric of society, not because you know each other, it is a bringing together of human beings as we should have been living all these years, and haven't been given the opportunity to do so,do you understand that?That is how important that meeting is.You are willing to attend such a meeting? MR XUMALO Yes, I am willing and prepared. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairperson, my instructions is similar in this position, the victim is not opposing the application, and the remarks that went for the first applicant, is also going for this applicant. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Mr Xumalo, the same question I asked Mr Motjale, you were following orders, you had no subjective knowledge of Qobani's activities, is that correct? MR XUMALO Yes. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON In your case also, I want to ask one or two questions. Would you agree that what has happened in the past especially in your area, if we look back on it now, it should not have happened? Not only your incident, but the general problem in the area? Would you agree it should not have happened? MR XUMALO Yes, I believe so. CHAIRPERSON And have you learnt from those mistakes? MR XUMALO Yes, I have learnt. CHAIRPERSON And that every effort, should similar problems arise, before we resort to killing each other, every effort must be made to solve those problems some other way? Would you agree? MR XUMALO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MRS NHLAYISI That was my applications for the day. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp have you got anything else set up? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, as far as I can establish my other colleagues don't have any matters that is ready for today. I am not quite sure what the position as far as Lawly Shane is, unfortunately he is not here, but if you would give me the opportunity, I can maybe inform during lunch time, I see it is one o'clock. It will take me five minutes sir, thank you sir. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS