amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-04 JOHANNESBURG 4 SOLOMON DLAMINI AM7134/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53179&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990204jh.htm ON RESUMPTION MR SHANE My first applicant is Mr Solomon Dlamini, his application appears on page 8. The application number is AM7134/97. CHAIRPERSON Have you got an identity number for us? MR SHANE Mr Chairman, the applicant has an identity document, but it is at home at the present moment, with your permission I beg leave that we submit the identity document on Monday. He confirms that the date of birth herein is correct, but we will further submit the ID on Monday. CHAIRPERSON What language would you prefer to use? MR DLAMINI Zulu. SOLOMON DLAMINI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. Mr Dlamini, if you press that button on your microphone, leave it on, because you are going to be talking most of the time. Yes, Mr Shane. EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dlamini, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR SHANE Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR SHANE Which Section were you part of the Unit? MR DLAMINI At Tokoza Slovo Section. MR SHANE Who was your Commander? MR DLAMINI Blah was the Commander. MR SHANE Is Blah also known by the name of Mduduzi Moses Kubeka? MR DLAMINI Yes, that is the one. MR SHANE Since when were you part of the Unit, when did you join the Self Defence Unit? MR DLAMINI In 1993. CHAIRPERSON Can you just repeat that name, I didn't quite get it. You can do so yourself? MR SHANE The name of Blah is Mduduzi Moses Kubeka. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SHANE With me here, I've got your application and on page 9 on paragraph 9(a)(i) you said the acts that you are applying for is theft of firearms from Kliprivier police station and assault. In fact it shouldn't be theft, it should be armed robbery, assault and unlawful possession of arms and ammunition, do you confirm that? MR DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Do you know the date on which this incident occurred? MR DLAMINI 15th of December 1993. MR SHANE 15 December 1993? What happened on the 15th of December 1993? MR DLAMINI There were six of us. We left from Blah's place, headed for the Kliprivier police station. We went there with the intention of armed robbery. Four of us remained outside when we got there. Only myself and one other deceased person went inside. There were two police. CHAIRPERSON How many went in? MR DLAMINI There were only two of us who went inside. We found two policemen. CHAIRPERSON Who are the two that went in? MR DLAMINI It was myself and Themba. CHAIRPERSON Themba who? MR DLAMINI Sibeko. MR SHANE Then who are the four who remained outside? MR DLAMINI It was Mduduzi, Kage and Molefe as well as Serge Mokozi. MR SHANE Then Themba Sibeko and yourself got in to this police station, then the four others remained outside. What happened? MR DLAMINI We found two policemen, black policemen. I said to them we are asking for help. They wanted to know what kind of help we wanted and I told them that we have a breakdown, a motor vehicle breakdown and when they wanted to know where, I drew my firearm and pointed it at them. Themba too had a firearm. We then instructed them to lay on the floor. After that, we took the firearms that they had. We took the firearms that they had in their possession. Mduduzi, Molefe and the other one came in. We wanted to know where the other firearms were. We wanted to know from these policemen where the other firearms were because we only found three firearms from them, two pistols as well as an R5. They became stubborn. We tried to scare them, beating them up and promised them death. They then told us that the firearms, the other firearms are in the safe. We demanded the keys to the safe. They gave us the keys. They showed us the key, we ordered one of them to stand up and that was the one who was led to the safe to open it himself. Indeed, we found the firearms there in the safe. We found palm guns, six of them. Six palm guns, three R1's, four pistols. We then tore a wire, we then disconnected the telephone wire. We then left. CHAIRPERSON What happened to the policemen? MR DLAMINI We left them there. CHAIRPERSON Did you tie them up or ... MR DLAMINI No, we did not. MR SHANE Who commanded this operation sir? MR DLAMINI Mduduzi. MR SHANE Why did you specifically target this Kliprivier police station? MR DLAMINI It was an easy target. MR SHANE Explain. MR DLAMINI It was an easy target, it did not have many policemen. MR SHANE Were you all armed on that particular day? MR DLAMINI Yes. MR SHANE If you were armed and your intention was to go and rob these arms and ammunitions, did you foresee that the police officers who were at that police station, would if resisting, would get hurt or would eventually die? MR DLAMINI Yes, we did think about that but then we were also armed. We wanted these firearms from the police station. CHAIRPERSON Would you do what was necessary to obtain those firearms? MR DLAMINI That is correct. MR SHANE Do you what ultimately happened to the arms and ammunition that you robbed that particular day? MR DLAMINI We used these firearms for the protection of the community. CHAIRPERSON When you left the police station with all these firearms, what did you do with that? MR DLAMINI We gave these firearms to Blah and he in turn gave it to our soldiers, gave these firearms to our soldiers. MR SHANE The arms that were distributed by Blah, that is the arms that you robbed at the police station, will you agree with me that they were also used in all these violent activities that occurred during the period 1993 to the end of the violence in mid-1994? MR DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE And you associate yourself with the results that came about as a result of those arms, that is the murders and the injuries that were caused? CHAIRPERSON Do you associate yourself with the crimes committed in the process of stealing those firearms? MR DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE If you were to know the identity of the police officers that you assaulted, threatened when you robbed these arms, would you take that opportunity and try to express your words of regret, that you are sorry for what you did on that particular evening, on that particular day? MR DLAMINI Yes, I would apologise to them. MR SHANE Mr Chairman, through the evidence it transpired that a telephone wire was cut and as a result, it constitutes malicious damage to property. I would request that it be added as a further application in this regard. CHAIRPERSON ... telephone wires, as I understand your evidence, it was part and parcel of this whole action? MR DLAMINI Yes, that is correct. We wanted to be safe until we were out of the place. MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I don't have any questions, except to confirm that we have received information from the police that there was actually police officers injured on the scene. That was all that we received. CHAIRPERSON Are we not aware of the identities of those? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I was informed that the specific incident could not be further traced, except that an incident occurred where police officers were injured. Thank you sir. MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions. CHAIRPERSON You say that the Commander, once he received the firearms, he distributed it to the soldiers of the Unit? MR DLAMINI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you know that that was going to happen when you went on the operation? MR DLAMINI Yes. We already knew that. CHAIRPERSON And you associated yourself with such distribution of firearms? MR DLAMINI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You had no right to do so, no legal right? MR DLAMINI What right? CHAIRPERSON To distribute firearms? I am talking about legal right? MR DLAMINI Yes, I did not have that right. CHAIRPERSON What is the situation in Tokoza today? MR DLAMINI The situation is back to normal today. CHAIRPERSON What do you feel about that fact? MR DLAMINI I am free. CHAIRPERSON What do you think of institutions like police stations today? Are they necessary in our society? MR DLAMINI Yes, they are important for now. CHAIRPERSON Should they be respected? MR DLAMINI Yes, they should be respected. CHAIRPERSON Would you agree that in the violence that occurred during that time, and in particular I am talking about the Tokoza area, many people died? MR DLAMINI Yes, many people died. CHAIRPERSON Would you agree we should avoid a repetition of that in future? MR DLAMINI Yes, I agree. CHAIRPERSON And that our people irrespective of their political affiliations, should live in peace together? MR DLAMINI Yes, I agree with you. CHAIRPERSON Have there been lessons to be learnt from the previous experience do you think? MR DLAMINI Yes, so many lessons. CHAIRPERSON And have we learnt from them? MR DLAMINI Yes, we have learnt. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED