amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-04 JOHANNESBURG 4 MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA AM7662/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53180&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990204jh.htm -MR SHANE: My next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mduduzi Moses Kubeka. His application appears on page 15. The application number is AM7662/97. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kubeka, which language would you prefer to use? MR KUBEKA Zulu. MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Kubeka, are you also known as Blah? MR KUBEKA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Would you confirm his identity number please Mr Shane? MR SHANE Mr Kubeka, please correct me if I am wrong, is this your identity number, 551006 5258 08 2? MR KUBEKA Yes, those numbers are correct. MR SHANE Your answer to my first question that you are also known as Blah, did you say yes? MR KUBEKA That is correct. MR SHANE The previous applicant, that is Mr Dlamini, Solomon Dlamini, indicated to us that you were his Commander, is that correct? MR KUBEKA That is correct. MR SHANE He further testified to the effect that you issued out instructions that Kliprivier police station had to be robbed, is that correct? MR KUBEKA That is correct. MR SHANE He further stated that there were six of you and you were all armed, is that correct? MR KUBEKA That is correct. MR SHANE He said that had there been any resistance from the police officers at that police station, you would have force to an extent that your aim was to go back to the township with those arms and ammunitions, do you confirm that? MR KUBEKA That is correct. MR SHANE He further stated that you remained outside with three others, whilst he and Themba Sibeko went in and assaulted the said officers and robbed them of the firearms. Do you associate yourself with those activities? MR KUBEKA Very much so. MR SHANE He said those arms were given over to you and you in turn, in return you distributed those arms to the community, do you confirm that? MR KUBEKA Yes, I took these firearms and handed them over to the soldiers to protect the community. MR SHANE Do you confirm any other thing that he said in as far as it relates to you? MR KUBEKA Yes. MR SHANE Is there anything that you would want to add that you think he might have left out in his evidence? MR KUBEKA No. MR SHANE If you were to know the police officers that were harassed or that were attacked on that particular day, will you take that opportunity to reconcile with them? MR KUBEKA Very much so. MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV GCABASHE Mr Kubeka, in your application form you talk of general defensive actions and I assumed that this particular one you have just dealt with one of many, are you going to supplement as the Commander of a particular area, are you going to be supplementing your current application at all, you know vis-a-vis the other things that you may have done. Your name has come up quite a few times and I don't know if you know the detail of those particular applications, and whether you are intending in this general application of yours, to mention those incidents as well? MR KUBEKA What I can say something that may not be part of this form, is that I was a Commander of the soldiers. We were at a battle field. If one were a Commander, there is, I can say there is nothing specific that I can refer to. CHAIRPERSON Are you aware of any details of other incidents which you may have ordered some of your soldiers to commit? Can you remember? MR KUBEKA No. I cannot remember. It has been a long time now. CHAIRPERSON No, I accept that. You see, I just want to point out to you that there are other applicants who testified here about incidents that they had committed and they have also said that you were the Commander of that Unit. They may not have said that there was a plan or a meeting in which you were present, where they decided to do certain things, so I am not too sure, whether you were involved in such incidents or not. I thought it best to raise it with you, just in case you - you've got an opportunity now to apply for those. If you were not involved, then so be it. I don't know if your Attorney wants a few minutes to check with you. MR SHANE I would appreciate that very much Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I have consulted my client and my instructions are that as far as he knows, there are no other incidents where he issued out commands, except for this one. He remembers this one very well. Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kubeka, you seem to have been a respected leader in a small way there in Tokoza. What seems to be the situation there now as far as fighting and violence is concerned? MR KUBEKA The situation is very acceptable. CHAIRPERSON Is there any chance of a repeat of this, there? MR KUBEKA No, that will never occur ever, because the situation is under a watchful eye now. CHAIRPERSON And the lessons that had been learnt from them, are they such that one can avoid a repetition of this problem? MR KUBEKA Yes, they are our brothers. We are living together. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED