amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-16 METHODIST CHURCH, JOHANNESBURG 9 ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS AM7376/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53190&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990216jh.htm CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) Selepe. Is he present? MS NHLAYASI CHAIRPERSON Mr Selepe, last week your matter was postponed because of certain technical problems that you were experiencing with your representative. Do you remember? MR SELEPE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON MR SELEPE I prefer to use other language. CHAIRPERSON Which one? MR SELEPE CHAIRPERSON We will translate for you. Is it number four? Okay. I hope your attorney at that time had explained to you that I was postponing the matter to today in order to give you an opportunity to obtain other legal representation. Do you understand that? MR SELEPE Yes I do understand that. CHAIRPERSON Did your attorney tell you that? MR SELEPE CHAIRPERSON MR SELEPE Yes he told me so. CHAIRPERSON Have you done so, or what is the position? MR SELEPE CHAIRPERSON MR SELEPE I did nothing because on that very last day I was promised that somebody would be organised for me, a new legal representative would be organised, so I left that in their hands because I did not have money to organise one for myself, they told me that they were going to inform me if they found one. They came over the weekend to tell me that I did not make any attempts to find a legal representative because I know that money will be involved there. CHAIRPERSON Who told you this now? That somebody, or a legal representative, will be found for you. MR SELEPE The people who were present here last week and a group of people from the ANC. I cannot remember who actually uttered those words, but they were people outside there, the very same people who organised legal representative for me the very first one. Those are the same people who told me about this arrangement. CHAIRPERSON MR SELEPE CHAIRPERSON MR SELEPE Yes I do understand. CHAIRPERSON MR SELEPE CHAIRPERSON I have been told from another source also, that it can be that the TRC can appoint an attorney for you. Are you happy with that? MR SELEPE CHAIRPERSON MR SELEPE CHAIRPERSON Then you can be seated, and during the, one of the adjournments, I will instruct an official to see to it that they talk to you and arrange an attorney for you. Okay? MR SELEPE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You can be seated now, then. MS NHLAYASI CHAIRPERSON Spell that please. MS NHLAYASI CHAIRPERSON Is she miss or Mrs? MS NHLAYASI CHAIRPERSON Ms Barnabus, which language would you prefer to use? Ellen which language which you prefer to use? MS BARNABUS Xhosa. CHAIRPERSON Xhosa? Very well. It will be on number three on that, the receiver. Have you any objection to the taking of the oath? MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. MR SIBANYONI Mr Chairperson looking at the ID number and the date of birth, one of the two should be incorrect. The date of birth on the form, as well as the ID number. MS NHLAYISI Can I just try and get clarification on that? She says the date of birth as it appears on the form is the correct one, but when her ID came back it indicated 1975, that means the ID number is sort of incorrect. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON When did you get your ID book? MS BARNABUS ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON This year? MS BARNABUS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYASI Ms Barnabas, you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How old are you? MS BARNABUS CHAIRPERSON And you say in your application you were ...(inaudible) you joined the SDU? MS BARNABUS CHAIRPERSON When you were approximately 18 years old? MS BARNABUS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MS NHLAYASI MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYASI Mnaheng section is also known as William Dingaan section. Is that correct? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYASI Who was your commander at the time when you joined? MS BARNABUS Mathula Mtabela. MS NHLAYASI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS BARNABUS Mathula Mtabela. Mathula Mtabela. MS NHLAYASI MS BARNABUS It was in August. MS NHLAYASI Of which year? MS BARNABUS 1993. MS NHLAYASI Can you briefly tell this Commission what happened, as far as you were involved in this incident? MS BARNABUS MS NHLAYASI MS BARNABUS We went there to kill him. MS NHLAYISI What was the reason for you wanting to kill him? MS BARNABUS Because he was an informant. MS NHLAYISI MS BARNABUS Yes. MS NHLAYISI How did you get this information? MS BARNABUS CHAIRPERSON Did, at that meeting, did you see that as an admission, when he said his activities should not be attributed to those of his family? MS BARNABUS Yes. Our suspicions were confirmed. MS NHLAYISI The decision to kill Thabiso, where was it taken? Was it taken at the very meeting where his father was present, or was it taken at a later stage? MS BARNABUS That was taken after some time after the meeting. MS NHLAYISI Was the meeting convened for this purpose, where this issue about Thabiso being an informer was discussed? MS BARNABUS Will you please repeat your question. MS NHLAYISI MS BARNABUS Yes, there was another meeting. MS NHLAYISI Was it still the meeting of the community, or which people convened this particular meeting where this decision was taken? MS BARNABUS It was not a community meeting, but it was just an SDU meeting. MS NHLAYISI So you were given orders to be one of those people who were going to take part in the killing. Is that correct? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Which section of Tokoza was the SDU to which you were attached? MS BARNABUS That is Maheng section in Katlehong. CHAIRPERSON Maheng? MS BARNABUS MS NHLAYISI With who were you supposed to go and carry out this particular order? MS BARNABUS With Mathula Mtabela. MS NHLAYISI Who was also your commander at that stage? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) it this way. Were you armed? MS BARNABUS Yes, I was. CHAIRPERSON What with? MS BARNABUS A pistol. CHAIRPERSON And you say your commander spoke to him there when he was standing in front of his house? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON After they spoke, what happened? MS BARNABUS When he started questioning him he ran away. CHAIRPERSON Where? MS BARNABUS He went to the house, he ran to the house. CHAIRPERSON What did you do? MS BARNABUS We went, we followed him to the house. CHAIRPERSON And? MS BARNABUS Mathula went to the bedroom. He was inside the bedroom and he closed the door. Mathula pushed the door to the bedroom and tried to put in the firearm and Thabiso grabbed this firearm and they went out of the bedroom struggling with this firearm. And I shot Thabiso at his back. CHAIRPERSON From where? MS BARNABUS I was at the door, in the kitchen. They were out of the bedroom now and they were in the kitchen now. CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about the door leading to outside? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS BARNABUS Yes, he passed away. He died. MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. After you have fired that shot, what did you do next? MS BARNABUS When he was already lying on the floor Mathula shot at him also and we left the house. MS NHLAYISI What happened to the firearm that you had on that particular day? MS BARNABUS I handed it over to Mathula. MS NHLAYISI As a member of the SDU in Monahang section, did you usually go on patrols? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Were there any occasions where you carried a firearm, except this particular day where Thabiso was killed? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What was wrong with being an informer those days? What did you find wrong with that? MS BARNABUS Because he was, the information was leaking through him about our activities as we were fighting in the township, so he would forward the information to the people., to the police. CHAIRPERSON And what was wrong with telling the police, as far as you were concerned? MS BARNABUS The police would arrest us and if we were about to execute a certain operation we would find the police there, knowing everything about the operation. CHAIRPERSON And the operation would be of a political nature? MS BARNABUS Yes, patrolling, and protecting ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Do you know where you were born? MS BARNABUS Yes, I know. CHAIRPERSON Where? MS BARNABUS In Natalspruit Hospital. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS NHLAYISI MS BARNABUS What I can remember is the window panes. I heard the sound of the breaking of the window panes. MS NHLAYISI At what stage did you hear the sound of breaking window panes? MS BARNABUS When Mathula was inserting the firearm through the bedroom door. MS NHLAYISI So the breaking of the windows was caused by a shot from that firearm? MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI I asked you whether you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Did you associate yourself with the breaking of that window? MS BARNABUS CHAIRPERSON No I know but, did you agree with what your commander was doing in an attempt to execute your operation? It seems that was the only way he could get hold of Thabiso. MS BARNABUS Yes, I agreed with that. MS NHLAYISI Is that the only incident, wherein you were involved where somebody was killed? Are there no other incidents where people were injured and you were involved? MS BARNABUS No, there is no other incident. MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair, that is all for now. The applicant NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI ADV STEENKAMP ADDRESSES THE COMMITTEE ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all. CHAIRPERSON Do you intend him to give evidence, or are those submissions all that he wants to say? ADV STEENKAMP Those were the submissions, thank you Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE MS BARNABUS All I can say, we saw him as an informant because he would be seen with police, and the police at the time were enemies of our community, but he was the only person who would be seen in the company of police, that is why we regarded him as a person who was taking the information from the township to the police. ADV GCABASHE Had you personally seen him in the company of the police? MS BARNABUS No. ADV GCABASHE Whose information were you personally relying on? MS BARNABUS I heard that from the meeting, SDU meeting. CHAIRPERSON Were you present in that community meeting where you believed he made an admission and said that his activities should not be laid on the doorstep of his family? Were you in that meeting? MS BARNABUS Yes, I was present. CHAIRPERSON MS BARNABUS Yes, he is the one who uttered these words. ADV GCABASHE MS BARNABUS ADV GCABASHE MS BARNABUS Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE MS BARNABUS There was a tenant, a lady, a tenant who was there on the premises. ADV GCABASHE And then Matuli, where is he today? MS BARNABUS He passed away. ADV GCABASHE When did he pass away? MS BARNABUS In 1994. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Judge. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. MS BARNABUS MR SIBANYONI But why do you say sectional youth? MS BARNABUS He was, he was residing in our section so that was an agreement of the section as a whole, our section that is. MR SIBANYONI Was there any youth organisation? MS BARNABUS It was the ANC youth league. MR SIBANYONI Did it also discuss and take a decision about this matter about Thabiso? MS BARNABUS No. MR SIBANYONI You said you shot Thabiso, he fell, and then Matuli shot him when he had already fell down. Was Thabiso still alive when Matuli shot at him? MS BARNABUS I am not certain about that. MR SIBANYONI Did you undergo any training in weapons? MS BARNABUS ...(translation inaudible) MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. No further questions. CHAIRPERSON MS BARNABUS Yes I agree with that. CHAIRPERSON MS BARNABUS Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON What are you doing now? MS BARNABUS I am doing my last year in teaching. CHAIRPERSON MS BARNABUS I am busy with my last year doing a teaching diploma. CHAIRPERSON MS BARNABUS Yes, I would like freedom. CHAIRPERSON And would you also include that as being friendly with everybody, to make peace with our past enemies and vice versa? MS BARNABUS Yes. CHAIRPERSON The family of Thabiso, have you ever attempted to approach them, to make your peace with them? MS BARNABUS No. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MS BARNABUS ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Why not? MS BARNABUS ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON In a quest to become friendly and to set aside all this hate which has resulted from the apartheid era, can you see your way clear to speak to the family of Thabiso, and make peace with them, if it can be done? MS BARNABUS ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON So if your attorney and some other people can make such an arrangement for you to be able to talk to them, you will be willing to do so? MS BARNABUS ...(no English interpretation). CHAIRPERSON Yes. By the way, were you ever arrested for this crime? MS BARNABUS ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Nhlayasi I would be thankful if you and Mr Steenkamp would perhaps make an attempt to facilitate a meeting of the applicant and the family, to whatever end, but at least make an attempt. ...(indistinct) reconciliation, it would seem. MS NHLAYISI