amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-16 JOHANNESBURG 9 SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA AM5475/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53191&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990216jh.htm MS NHLAYISI The next application is Sipho Japtha Maduna, page 107, amnesty application AM5475/97. CHAIRPERSON Mr Maduna, what language would you prefer to use? MR MADUNA Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? MR MADUNA ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Well, let’s start all over then. Do you prefer to use Zulu when testifying? MR MADUNA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now it is customary to take the oath, to affirm that you will tell the truth when testifying. Have you got any objection to the taking of the oath, or affirming that you will tell the truth? SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. Yes? MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. The applicant is applying for amnesty for the following offences. Murder of - His ID number is 661011 5550 08 9. The offences that he’s applying amnesty for are murder of one Mkolise Sitwala, arson, malicious damage to property, possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, possession of explosives, and attempted murder. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MS NHLAYISI The person is unknown. The name of the person is unknown. EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Mr Maduna, you were a member of the Self-Defence Unit in Mavimela section, also known as Sarajevo. Is that correct? MR MADUNA That’s correct. MS NHLAYISI Mavimela section is in Katlehong. You were a member of the Self-Defence Unit at Mavimela section in Katlehong, is that correct? MR MADUNA ... (reply in Zulu - not translated). MS NHLAYISI Who was your commander? MR MADUNA Zwandile MS NHLAYISI When did you join the SDU’s? MR MADUNA In 1990. MS NHLAYISI You also informed in consultation that you also participated in the activities of the SDU’s in Radebe section, also in Katlehong. Is that correct? MR MADUNA That’s correct. MS NHLAYISI Who was your commander at Radebe section? MR MADUNA Mbongani. MS NHLAYISI You have applied for amnesty for the killing of one Mkolise Sitwala. When did this incident take place? MR MADUNA In 1993. MS NHLAYISI Where did it happen? MR MADUNA In Radebe section. MS NHLAYISI With who were you when you carried out this particular order? MR MADUNA I was alone. MS NHLAYISI Who gave you an order to kill Mkolise? MR MADUNA Mr Mbongani gave me the order. MS NHLAYISI What was the reason given to you for carrying out this particular order? Why were you supposed to kill Mkolise? MR MADUNA We discovered that Mkolise was a member of IFP. MS NHLAYISI What was your source of information regarding this piece of information? MR MADUNA We discussed about it first in a meeting, as a civic association in Radebe. At the time at Mkolise’s place there were no other people, no other family members. They were gone already. We discussed about it. We realised that people who were Inkatha members used to go visit Mkolise. Mkolise used to go with them. What assured me about this is that I asked him, I personally asked him, and he confirmed this. He said to me he was a member of an IFP. MS NHLAYISI When did you ask him about his membership in the IFP? MR MADUNA On the day when he was murdered, when I murdered him MS NHLAYISI At that stage the decision to kill him had already been taken. Is that correct? MR MADUNA That’s correct. We had already taken the decision. MS NHLAYISI So where and how did you carry out this order? MR MADUNA Mr Mbongani came to see me and told me that Mkolise was around. I think it was on a week-end. He told me that Mkolise was around at his girlfriend’s place, and he told me to go there and kill him. I went there, and I found out he was there, and another guy with him. And his girlfriend was from the kitchen going towards the dining room. And I went inside, I ask as to who was Mkolise and they pointed him. I told him I needed to see him outside. He asked me where we were going. I told him we were going to talk about it outside. We went towards the graveyard and when we arrived there in a bush area like, next to the graveyard, I told him that I’m being sent to kill him, and he asked me who sent me to do so. I told him that other people have sent me because he was a member of IFP. And he told me that the truth was he was a member of IFP but he wanted to no longer belong to IFP. And I said to him since his father was also an IFP and we have his father in our possession we are going to kill his father so that he join the ANC. And I ask him if he will agree with this proposal, and he said no, and that’s when I shot him. MS NHLAYISI What type of firearm did you have on the day when you carried out this particular order? MR MADUNA Nine millimetre shotgun. MS NHLAYISI How many times did you shoot him? MR MADUNA Once. MS NHLAYISI When you left, was he dead already? MR MADUNA I think he was dead already. 9mm shotgun. There are different types of 9mms, I’m referring to the short one, 9mm short one, the one that is almost the 765 size. CHAIRPERSON It’s a pistol. MR MADUNA Yes. MS NHLAYISI So the reason for killing Mkolise was there was information that he was an IFP member, therefore he had to be eliminated. Is that correct? MR MADUNA That’s correct. MS NHLAYISI You’ve also mentioned, amongst other things, that you were involved in burning shacks at Mngadi section. Could you briefly tell us about this incident? When did it happen? MR MADUNA It was in 1993. MS NHLAYISI Which month was it? MR MADUNA No, I can’t remember the month. MS NHLAYISI To who did this shack belong, or shacks rather, belong? The shacks that you burned at Mngadi. Do you know the owners thereof? MR MADUNA I don’t know the owners. All I know is that in those shacks IFP members were living there. There were no longer ANC. CHAIRPERSON And where were these shacks? In an informal settlement, or off a particular road, or where? MR MADUNA Next to Mgati Street, near the church, a certain church. There are no longer names in Katlehong. I don’t know the name, I don’t know the address, but I can take you there. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS NHLAYISI It was in Mgati Street or Mgati section? MR MADUNA Mgati section. MS NHLAYISI Give then the full address as to the name of the street where it is situated. Is that correct? MR MADUNA That’s correct. MS NHLAYISI What was the reason for you going to burn these particular shacks? Could you explain? MR MADUNA Those shacks belonged to IFP members. MS NHLAYISI How did you know this? MR MADUNA We could see them after fought with them, or after we were attacking each other, they would run to those shacks. And even the same day when we went and burned down those shacks, we just had a fight with them earlier on and then they ran to those shacks. Therefore we went to those shacks and burned them. I went there and I entered. I discovered that these other shacks were quiet. And then one particular shack which was at the centre, there were voices coming there, people were talking from that shack, that’s when we started shooting towards that shack and then after that we took petrol and a box of match, we poured the petrol around, and then we set the shack alight. MS NHLAYISI Are you in a position to say today whether people were injured or killed in that particular incident, or you don’t know? MR MADUNA Yes, people were injured. People who were inside, and those shacks were set alight, almost all of them, because it started by one shack and then it went on to the next and the next. CHAIRPERSON Were any people killed that day as a result of what you did? That is the question. MR MADUNA When I say they were injured, I mean that they died. Because first we shot at them, and then later we set those shacks alight. CHAIRPERSON You don’t know if they ran away, or do you? MR MADUNA No, they didn’t. They didn’t run away, because I was standing right before the door, and I saw people lying down because when I, as I was shooting towards the house the door opened, and then I saw them lying down. And then afterwards that’s when I set the shacks alight. CHAIRPERSON What firearm were you using? MR MADUNA ...(translation inaudible) three. MS NHLAYISI Are you in a position to say how many people were killed in that incident, or injured in that particular incident? MR MADUNA No, I wouldn’t be sure. I didn’t get the time to check this, because immediately after I’ve set that house alight I ran away. Therefore I don’t know how many were there. MS NHLAYISI You also do not know their identities? You cannot tell us who were injured or killed in that particular incident? MR MADUNA That’s correct. MS NHLAYISI Were you alone, or were you with others during this incident? MR MADUNA I was with others. MS NHLAYISI How many of you were there? MR MADUNA If I remember very well it was myself and Michael, Zikes, Melusi. I think it was six of us. MS NHLAYISI You also mentioned one King, a person known by the name of King, who was present. MR MADUNA Yes, he was. MS NHLAYISI Was this the same group that had been fighting the IFP members earlier on? The six of you. MR MADUNA That’s correct. MS NHLAYISI So, you were fighting, as they ran to the shacks you followed them immediately, you didn’t wait ‘til later? MR MADUNA We fought and soldiers came, and then we waited. When it was dark and the soldiers were no longer there, we went there. We say them going to those shacks before we went, exactly where they went. MS NHLAYISI You also mentioned that on another occasion you attacked a house, also in Mgadi section. That particular house was occupied by IFP members. Can you tell us about this particular incident? MR MADUNA Yes. This house is at Mgadi, next to the tar road which separate Radebe section and Mgadi. We were fighting during the day with them. Soldiers came and it got quiet. Later we went back. We checked and we realised that the people we were looking for were also looking towards where we were. And then two people went back to the house. I had a 9mm with me, and a hand grenade, RD5. I ran, I jumped the fence, and as I got closer to the house I heard them talking. I broke the window. I threw the RD5 hand grenade, and then I ran away. MS NHLAYISI Do you know whether any people were injured in this incident, or did you see any people running away from this particular house when you attacked? MR MADUNA I didn’t see, because immediately after I’ve done so I ran away. I went to Radebe section. MS NHLAYISI Who was with you when you carried out this particular order? MR MADUNA I was with Mbongani. MS NHLAYISI Only the two of you? MR MADUNA Yes. MS NHLAYISI Do you know what happened in this particular house after you had left? Do you have any information as to whether any people were killed or injured? Or do you only know about the damage to the property? MR MADUNA I don’t know about people being injured or killed, I only know about the property being damaged. MS NHLAYISI In which year did this particular incident take place? MR MADUNA In 1993. MS NHLAYISI Can you remember the month? MR MADUNA No, I can’t. I can’t remember the month. All I remember is that it was in 1993. MS NHLAYISI Then you mentioned another incident that you say took place in 1994, wherein a hostel was attacked, that is Byafuti Hostel. What was the reason? INTERPRETER Excuse me, I didn’t get the name of the hostel. MS NHLAYISI Byafuti. MR MADUNA One guy by the name of Sam came to me. He told me that there was a meeting, and he told me as to where the meeting was going to take place. Sam came to me and told me that there was a meeting which we were supposed to do. He told me where we were going to meet, the point where we were going to meet, and I went there. When I arrived there he told me that we were supposed to go and bomb the hostel Byafuti. He gave me rockets. We went there. We came from the direction of Tokoza, unit F. We entered there. We hid the first rocket and it didn’t hit the target, and then the second one went in and I heard the explosion. And then we left. We went back. MS NHLAYISI How many people were involved in this attack? MR MADUNA Sam, myself and other two gentlemen. I don’t know their names. MS NHLAYISI Did you carry any weapon on this particular day? MR MADUNA No, except for the RPG7. MS NHLAYISI What was the reason for attacking this particular hostel, Byafuti Hostel? MR MADUNA The reason was the community of Katlehong had already taken a decision that they didn’t want hostels any more. They wanted the hostels to be demolished or to be removed in the townships. Therefore we wanted to scare them to make sure that they leave the hostels, because the people who were the hostel dwellers were still there. MS NHLAYISI Why did you target hostels in particular? Why did the community want the hostels to be demolished? MR MADUNA We were tired because the hostel dwellers were attacking he community. We were tired of the hostel dwellers and their activities. That’s why the community decided not to have hostels any more in the townships. MS NHLAYISI There’s another occasion wherein you were involved where a hostel in Tokoza was attacked. That was in Mshayazafe ...(intervention) MR SIBANYONI I’m sorry, what did you say about Bays, I heard you mentioning the name Bays? MR MADUNA Hostels were IFP, that’s where IFP people were staying, or armed wing of IFP were staying in hostels. MS NHLAYISI There’s another incident where a hostel in Tokoza, that’s Mshayazafe hostel, was attacked. You also participated in this incident. Can you remember when did this incident take place? MR MADUNA Yes I do remember, even ‘though I don’t remember the month, but it was in 1994 just before the elections. CHAIRPERSON Where you people shot this rocket into Byafuti Hostel, were there any people who died as a result? MR MADUNA Yes, there were. There were people who died, many of them. ADV GCABASHE But do you know this as a fact, or are you just assuming that many people died when you shot that rocket into Byafuti hostel? MR MADUNA I think I didn’t get the question accurate. I thought the Judge was asking me if the people who were staying in hostels were killing people from the township. I don’t know how many people died in hostel. All I know is that the rocket was thrown and it went inside and exploded, then we left. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR MADUNA ...(no English interpretation) MS NHLAYISI The incident involving Mshayazafe hostel in Tokoza. When did it happen? MR MADUNA In 1994. I don’t remember the month, but it was before the elections. MS NHLAYISI The reason for attacking this particular hostel, is it the same as the one you have given with Byafuti? That you regarded the hostels as bases where IFP members or soldiers were basing. Is that correct? MR MADUNA Yes, that’s correct. ADV GCABASHE Can I just check, the Mshayazafe hostel incident. A lot of SDU sections were involved in that attack. Is that so? That’s SDU’s from different parts of Tokoza, and then Katlehong. MR MADUNA Yes, that’s correct. It was a mass. We were coming from different areas. ADV GCABASHE That’s the same incident where that photographer, Ken Oosterbrook, got killed. Is that the same Mshayazafe incident? MR MADUNA I don’t have that knowledge. ADV GCABASHE Okay, thank you. MS NHLAYISI Could you explain what took place on this particular day, how was, were you involved in this incident? MR MADUNA I was from Radebe and I was going to Mafimela, at home, I had an AK-47 with me. I saw many comrades and they were toyi toying, they were singing, and I joined them. There was a van, and in that van there was a RPG 7, fireguns were just fired between Tokoza and Myala. We went across to Tokoza. We went towards Penduka, near the hostels, and then the people who were responsible for rockets entered. We were deployed outside. When the first rocket exploded it didn’t sound too loud. The second one sounded too loud. And then fire guns were fired. This fight I think it took longer than usual. MS NHLAYISI Do you know whether any people were killed in this incident, killed or injured? MR MADUNA No I don’t know of people who died. I only know of one person who was injured. He was from Mavimbela. MS NHLAYISI Are you in a position to tell this Committee who are the other people who participated in this incident? MR MADUNA There were comrades, too many of them. I was one of the people in the mass. Then I wouldn’t know. MS NHLAYISI So the hostel was also damaged? MR MADUNA Yes, it was damaged. MS NHLAYISI Lastly, you mentioned an incident wherein you were mandated by the community to go and buy firearms in Mozambique. Could you tell us about that particular incident? MR MADUNA Yes. We ran out of guns. We used to buy them from Polla Park, and these shanganes who were selling the guns left for Vosloorus in hostel there, and we followed them there to buy the guns. And then after that they ran out of those guns because the demand increased. The stability unit used to disarm us, and the SADF. Then the community saw the need that we needed guns. Simange from Mozambique, that’s where he was born, he told us that he knew where we can get the guns from Mozambique. And then we needed one person with a passport who can accompany him. I was the one with a passport and the community elected me to accompany him to Mozambique. We went together. We went via Zimbabwe. We went to the Dongo Gara, that’s a refugee camp for the refugees from Mozambique, it’s near to Chipinga. We stayed there, and his mother was staying there, the guy I was with, he was a refugee there. We stayed at his home. We met other gentlemen he knew. We went to Mozambique. We used the Sipingo border gate. It’s not a border gate in use, because it was bombed a long time before we went there. We went to Chipinga Bara, it took us seven days to get there. These other gentlemen who accompanied us left us there, and they went and they brought back twelve AK, five G3, hand grenades, RG5, 12,5. And the rounds for AK and G3 they were full of, they were full in a sack. And RPG7 with six shells. We brought them back. We came back with these two gentlemen. Just before we arrived to Beit Bridge we left them there. When we were supposed to cross to South Africa our car broke, and then I had to come back here to fetch a car. I told the community as to what was going on and they bought the parts to fix the car. We fixed the car and then after we fixed the car we drove, but we couldn’t trust this car any more. We wanted to hide the other weapons. I think it was about nine and a half kilometres away from Messina, or the bridge to Messina, in a forest there, we left the RPG7 and grenades there, and the pistols. We took twelve AK-47's and five G3, and rounds. We brought them back here to South Africa. MS NHLAYISI The funding for this trip to Mozambique, where did the money come from? MR MADUNA From the community. From the Radebe section community. MS NHLAYISI The items that you mentioned that you brought back, where did you take them after your return? MR MADUNA We used them or the SDU’s activities, and for the community. MS NHLAYISI On your return from Mozambique, did you give these items, before using them, did you give them to any particular person? Were there for your commander or anybody in charge, or did you keep them with you? MR MADUNA Michael and someone else took the guns. Michael and Mbongani, and they are the ones who distribute it to the various bases. MS NHLAYISI So these particular incidents that you have mentioned here today, are these everything that you participated in, or is there anything else that you wish to add? MR MADUNA As far as I can remember these are the only ones I have participated in. MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair, that is all. To the offences that we mentioned earlier, that the applicant is applying amnesty for, I request you add dealing in unlicensed firearms, which was not mentioned earlier. CHAIRPERSON Your attempted murder, I think there are one, two, three buildings or hostels, which were fired at, one of which he testifies that there were fatalities. The other two he can’t say whether there were any fatalities. What is the position there? MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair I would request that we amend to say it’s attempted murders of unknown, it’s for the - undetermined number of people CHAIRPERSON Number of people in two hostels. And with regard to the one where he knows there are casualties? MS NHLAYISI I would request that we amend to say its murders of undetermined number of people. CHAIRPERSON And of course the malicious injury to property, and arson in respect of all three. MS NHLAYISI All three of them. CHAIRPERSON Well, I’m not too sure whether the various hostels were damaged to the extent that it would be malicious injury to property or arson, but it can’t be both. What do you say? MS NHLAYISI I don’t know. I’ve seen some pictures that have been annexed to his application. Apparently those were from the police docket. Maybe if the Committee would look at those pictures. There’s a picture on page 135, another one 136. If I look at them, personally I would say it’s malicious damage to property, I don’t know what is the feeling of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON If they shot an F1 rocket into there it must be arson at least. Those things burn. Wouldn’t you agree? And even if a building is scorched, that’s arson. It’s a technicality but it’s a necessary technicality because we’re going to, if we’re going to grant amnesty we must be specific for what we’re granting. Do you want to take lunch break and think about it? MS NHLAYISI I think so. I will think about it and I will come back to you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Are you finished Ms Nhlayisi? MS NHLAYISI That’s correct Mr Chair. Regarding the question that you posed earlier before we went out on lunch break, I request to amend and request for amnesty for arson regarding the incidences at the two hostels. Yes. Plus the arson with the shacks at Mgadi. So it’s three incidences of arson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI And the shacks at Mgadi section. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI It’s the shacks at Mgadi section. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI Yes there are two hostels. It’s Byafuti and Mshayazafe hostel. Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI No. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI Yes I am. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chair. I have no questions for the applicant, thank you sir. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SIBANYONI I don’t have any questions thank you Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Just to clarify, MITP, malicious injury to property, also only in respect of two hostels, not three? MS NHLAYISI No it’s two hostels. Those plus a house at Mgadi. ADV GCABASHE There was one area where you were going too fast, I couldn’t quite catch what you were saying. It was quite earlier on in your evidence. You were talking about going to fetch Mkolise, yes, and you said that you took him to a bush near the graveyard, and that’s where you told him that you were sent to kill him. He confirmed his IFP membership, and you said something about his father, and I wasn’t too sure as to what the discussion was about his father, and what the relationship was between the killing of Mkolise and his father, had to with what you were saying. Can you just, just that little bit about his father. What role did his father play, or what was it that you were saying? MR MADUNA I said, I asked Mr Mkolise - First I told him that I was sent to kill him, because he’s a member of Inkatha. But then he said to me he was Inkatha but now he wanted to leave Inkatha. And then I trap him. I said to him, we have his father with us, and I said to him, now if I can give him the gun which I had in my possession to go and shoot his father, will he do so, and then he answered back and said, no, he wouldn’t. ADV GCABASHE No further questions. CHAIRPERSON As a matter of interest, if you were in his place that day, would you have shot your father? MR MADUNA Yes. If my father was an IFP member and I was an ANC I was supposed to kill him or he was supposed to kill me. At that time this was appropriate, or this was a usual thing. Some comrades and some fathers wanted to kill their children for being members of the opposite organisation. This was normal in those days. MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair, that concludes my role for the day. I think one of my colleagues will be taking over.