amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-16 JOHANNESBURG 9 SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA AM5475/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53191&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990216jh.htm MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Mr Maduna, what language would you prefer to use? MR MADUNA Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? MR MADUNA ...(no English interpretation) CHAIRPERSON Do you prefer to use Zulu when testifying? MR MADUNA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now it is customary to take the oath, to affirm that you will tell the truth when testifying. Have you got any objection to the taking of the oath, or affirming that you will tell the truth? SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. Yes? MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MS NHLAYISI The person is unknown. The name of the person is unknown. EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Mr Maduna, you were a member of the Self-Defence Unit in Mavimela section, also known as Sarajevo. Is that correct? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Mavimela section is in Katlehong. You were a member of the Self-Defence Unit at Mavimela section in Katlehong, is that correct? MR MADUNA ... (reply in Zulu - not translated). MS NHLAYISI Who was your commander? MR MADUNA Zwandile MS NHLAYISI MR MADUNA In 1990. MS NHLAYISI MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Who was your commander at Radebe section? MR MADUNA Mbongani. MS NHLAYISI You have applied for amnesty for the killing of one Mkolise Sitwala. When did this incident take place? MR MADUNA In 1993. MS NHLAYISI Where did it happen? MR MADUNA In Radebe section. MS NHLAYISI With who were you when you carried out this particular order? MR MADUNA I was alone. MS NHLAYISI Who gave you an order to kill Mkolise? MR MADUNA Mr Mbongani gave me the order. MS NHLAYISI What was the reason given to you for carrying out this particular order? Why were you supposed to kill Mkolise? MR MADUNA We discovered that Mkolise was a member of IFP. MS NHLAYISI What was your source of information regarding this piece of information? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI When did you ask him about his membership in the IFP? MR MADUNA On the day when he was murdered, when I murdered him MS NHLAYISI At that stage the decision to kill him had already been taken. Is that correct? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI So where and how did you carry out this order? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI What type of firearm did you have on the day when you carried out this particular order? MR MADUNA Nine millimetre shotgun. MS NHLAYISI How many times did you shoot him? MR MADUNA Once. MS NHLAYISI When you left, was he dead already? MR MADUNA CHAIRPERSON MR MADUNA Yes. MS NHLAYISI So the reason for killing Mkolise was there was information that he was an IFP member, therefore he had to be eliminated. Is that correct? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI MR MADUNA It was in 1993. MS NHLAYISI Which month was it? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI To who did this shack belong, or shacks rather, belong? The shacks that you burned at Mngadi. Do you know the owners thereof? MR MADUNA CHAIRPERSON And where were these shacks? In an informal settlement, or off a particular road, or where? MR MADUNA CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS NHLAYISI It was in Mgati Street or Mgati section? MR MADUNA Mgati section. MS NHLAYISI Give then the full address as to the name of the street where it is situated. Is that correct? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI What was the reason for you going to burn these particular shacks? Could you explain? MR MADUNA Those shacks belonged to IFP members. MS NHLAYISI How did you know this? MR MADUNA We could see them after fought with them, or after we were attacking each other, they would run to those shacks. And even the same day when we went and burned down those shacks, we just had a fight with them earlier on and then they ran to those shacks. Therefore we went to those shacks and burned them. I went there and I entered. I discovered that these other shacks were quiet. MS NHLAYISI MR MADUNA Yes, people were injured. People who were inside, and those shacks were set alight, almost all of them, because it started by one shack and then it went on to the next and the next. CHAIRPERSON Were any people killed that day as a result of what you did? That is the question. MR MADUNA When I say they were injured, I mean that they died. Because first we shot at them, and then later we set those shacks alight. CHAIRPERSON MR MADUNA CHAIRPERSON What firearm were you using? MR MADUNA ...(translation inaudible) three. MS NHLAYISI Are you in a position to say how many people were killed in that incident, or injured in that particular incident? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI You also do not know their identities? You cannot tell us who were injured or killed in that particular incident? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Were you alone, or were you with others during this incident? MR MADUNA I was with others. MS NHLAYISI How many of you were there? MR MADUNA If I remember very well it was myself and Michael, Zikes, Melusi. I think it was six of us. MS NHLAYISI You also mentioned one King, a person known by the name of King, who was present. MR MADUNA Yes, he was. MS NHLAYISI Was this the same group that had been fighting the IFP members earlier on? The six of you. MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI MR MADUNA We fought and soldiers came, and then we waited. When it was dark and the soldiers were no longer there, we went there. We say them going to those shacks before we went, exactly where they went. MS NHLAYISI You also mentioned that on another occasion you attacked a house, also in Mgadi section. That particular house was occupied by IFP members. Can you tell us about this particular incident? MR MADUNA Yes. This house is at Mgadi, next to the tar road which separate Radebe section and Mgadi. We were fighting during the day with them. Soldiers came and it got quiet. Later we went back. We checked and we realised that the people we were looking for were also looking towards where we were. And then two people went back to the house. I had a 9mm with me, and a hand grenade, RD5. I ran, I jumped the fence, and as I got closer to the house I heard them talking. I broke the window. I threw the RD5 hand grenade, and then I ran away. MS NHLAYISI Do you know whether any people were injured in this incident, or did you see any people running away from this particular house when you attacked? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Who was with you when you carried out this particular order? MR MADUNA I was with Mbongani. MS NHLAYISI Only the two of you? MR MADUNA Yes. MS NHLAYISI Do you know what happened in this particular house after you had left? Do you have any information as to whether any people were killed or injured? Or do you only know about the damage to the property? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI In which year did this particular incident take place? MR MADUNA In 1993. MS NHLAYISI Can you remember the month? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Then you mentioned another incident that you say took place in 1994, wherein a hostel was attacked, that is Byafuti Hostel. What was the reason? INTERPRETER MS NHLAYISI Byafuti. MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI How many people were involved in this attack? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Did you carry any weapon on this particular day? MR MADUNA No, except for the RPG7. MS NHLAYISI What was the reason for attacking this particular hostel, Byafuti Hostel? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Why did you target hostels in particular? Why did the community want the hostels to be demolished? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI MR SIBANYONI MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI MR MADUNA CHAIRPERSON Where you people shot this rocket into Byafuti Hostel, were there any people who died as a result? MR MADUNA Yes, there were. There were people who died, many of them. ADV GCABASHE But do you know this as a fact, or are you just assuming that many people died when you shot that rocket into Byafuti hostel? MR MADUNA CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR MADUNA ...(no English interpretation) MS NHLAYISI The incident involving Mshayazafe hostel in Tokoza. When did it happen? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI The reason for attacking this particular hostel, is it the same as the one you have given with Byafuti? That you regarded the hostels as bases where IFP members or soldiers were basing. Is that correct? MR MADUNA ADV GCABASHE MR MADUNA ADV GCABASHE MR MADUNA ADV GCABASHE Okay, thank you. MS NHLAYISI Could you explain what took place on this particular day, how was, were you involved in this incident? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Do you know whether any people were killed in this incident, killed or injured? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI Are you in a position to tell this Committee who are the other people who participated in this incident? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI So the hostel was also damaged? MR MADUNA Yes, it was damaged. MS NHLAYISI Lastly, you mentioned an incident wherein you were mandated by the community to go and buy firearms in Mozambique. Could you tell us about that particular incident? MR MADUNA Yes. We ran out of guns. We used to buy them from Polla Park, and these shanganes who were selling the guns left for Vosloorus in hostel there, and we followed them there to buy the guns. And then after that they ran out of those guns because the demand increased. The stability unit used to disarm us, and the SADF. Then the community saw the need that we needed guns. MS NHLAYISI The funding for this trip to Mozambique, where did the money come from? MR MADUNA From the community. From the Radebe section community. MS NHLAYISI The items that you mentioned that you brought back, where did you take them after your return? MR MADUNA MS NHLAYISI On your return from Mozambique, did you give these items, before using them, did you give them to any particular person? Were there for your commander or anybody in charge, or did you keep them with you? MR MADUNA Michael and someone else took the guns. Michael and Mbongani, and they are the ones who distribute it to the various bases. MS NHLAYISI So these particular incidents that you have mentioned here today, are these everything that you participated in, or is there anything else that you wish to add? MR MADUNA As far as I can remember these are the only ones I have participated in. MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair, that is all. To the offences that we mentioned earlier, that the applicant is applying amnesty for, I request you add dealing in unlicensed firearms, which was not mentioned earlier. CHAIRPERSON MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON Number of people in two hostels. And with regard to the one where he knows there are casualties? MS NHLAYISI I would request that we amend to say its murders of undetermined number of people. CHAIRPERSON And of course the malicious injury to property, and arson in respect of all three. MS NHLAYISI All three of them. CHAIRPERSON MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON MS NHLAYISI I think so. I will think about it and I will come back to you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Are you finished Ms Nhlayisi? MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI And the shacks at Mgadi section. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI No. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MS NHLAYISI Yes I am. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chair. I have no questions for the applicant, thank you sir. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SIBANYONI ADV GCABASHE Just to clarify, MITP, malicious injury to property, also only in respect of two hostels, not three? MS NHLAYISI ADV GCABASHE MR MADUNA ADV GCABASHE No further questions. CHAIRPERSON As a matter of interest, if you were in his place that day, would you have shot your father? MR MADUNA Yes. If my father was an IFP member and I was an ANC I was supposed to kill him or he was supposed to kill me. At that time this was appropriate, or this was a usual thing. Some comrades and some fathers wanted to kill their children for being members of the opposite organisation. This was normal in those days. MS NHLAYISI Mr Chair, that concludes my role for the day. I think one of my colleagues will be taking over.