amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-16 JOHANNESBURG 9 DANIEL MAHESE BOOI AM 7561/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53192&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990216jh.htm ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Is there nothing else we can do in the meantime? ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) do tomorrow. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman I would guess about four, four to five. Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON ADV STEENKAMP The difficulty is some of the attorneys need still to consult with their clients Mr Chairman. Some of them only started this morning to consult with them, but be that as it may. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Where were you? MR SHANE ...(indistinct) that we can start with. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Well, call your client. What happens to your other client that you wanted to call? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE INTERPRETER Number four. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booi I understand you want to testify in Sotho? MR BOOI CHAIRPERSON Have you any objection to the taking of the oath? DANIEL MAHESE BOOI (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. ADV GCABASHE EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE MR BOOI MR SHANE Mr Booi you applied for amnesty for murder of Mr Dubula. Is that correct? MR BOOI MR SHANE You also mention in your application form about another unknown person who died. Is that right? MR BOOI MR SHANE MR BOOI MR SHANE You became a member of the ANC and also of the Self-Defence Unit for Katlehong or Natalspruit. MR BOOI MR SHANE What was your function in the Self-Defence Unit? MR BOOI I was an operator. MR SHANE Now, this person, Mr Dubula, who you shot. First of all just describe what did you do relating to his death? MR BOOI Dubula was a police informer. MR SHANE You can speak Sotho, it will be translated. MR BOOI Dubula was a police informer and also he was a member of IFP. MR SHANE How did you know this? MR BOOI Most of the times whenever he disappeared from the township, they internal stability unit police would arrive and disarm the community. MR SHANE Right, now is it correct that, or explain to the learned Committee how your weapons were confiscated, and what part Dubula played in those weapons being confiscated. CHAIRPERSON What was wrong with being in the company of the internal stability unit? MR BOOI It was a big mistake if you were seen in the company of the stability unit because they used to harass the community and kill people. Therefore, everybody who was closely associated with the police was not trusted by the community at that time. MR SHANE MR BOOI Please repeat your question. MR SHANE MR BOOI Most of the time Dubula was closely associated with the hostel dwellers, which was a stronghold of the IFP then. MR SHANE Right. Now, you say he was also a police informer, he used to tell the police something which caused you to lose something. Correct? What was that? MR BOOI Whenever Dubula disappeared from the township the police would come and attack all the places where we kept our armoury. MR SHANE That is where you kept your weapons? MR BOOI MR SHANE MR BOOI They were not mine, they belonged to the community. MR SHANE Yes, but they were in your possession. There were weapons in your possession, during that time. MR BOOI They were not kept by me, but by the commander. MR SHANE Yes, but you sometimes used weapons. Correct? MR BOOI MR SHANE And when you used them they were in your possession for the time you used them. Correct? MR BOOI MR SHANE You never have had a licence to possess them. Correct? MR BOOI MR SHANE So you will also seek amnesty for possession for the times when you possessed those weapons. MR BOOI MR SHANE Now Mr Dabula, you shot him? MR BOOI Yes, I did shoot him. MR SHANE How many times did you shoot him? MR BOOI I shot him once. MR SHANE This was in 1993? MR BOOI It was in 1993, I cannot really recall the month and the date. MR SHANE Can you tell was it towards the end, in the beginning or in the middle, of 93? MR BOOI It was in the middle of 1993. MR SHANE Were you alone? MR BOOI I was not alone. MR SHANE Who were you with? MR BOOI I was with Jabu Nkosi. MR SHANE Was Jabu Nkosi also a member of the Self-Defence Unit? MR BOOI MR SHANE Can you describe the circumstances where you found the deceased, and what you did before you killed him? MR BOOI MR BOOI The ones I remember are Jabu, Frank and Mandla. The rest I do not remember because there were many of us. MR SHANE MR BOOI Yes, they were SDU members. MR SHANE So in fact when he was shot he had already been captured by other members of the SDU. Is that correct? MR BOOI MR SHANE When you fired the shot at the deceased, had you know him? Had you met him before, did you know him? MR BOOI It was not the first time I saw him. MR SHANE When you shot him you were quite satisfied that he was an informer, and an IFP member. You knew that. Is that correct? MR BOOI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Can you remember, you say you fired one shot, Jabu Nkosi was the other person who fired. Can you remember how many shots Jabu fired? MR BOOI The first person who shot him was Jabu. He shot him once, and he handed me the same AK-47 and I used it to shoot him once. MR SHANE Do you know where you hit him? MR BOOI In the head. MR SHANE Did you aim for the head? MR BOOI I just fired aimlessly, because I was not well trained. MR SHANE Did the deceased die there and then on the spot, or can you, do you know what happened? MR BOOI He died on the spot. MR SHANE What did you do afterwards, after you shot him? What did you do? First of all what did you do with your weapon? MR BOOI We took them, we took the weapon back to the commander and we went different ways because the police were already roaming the area. MR SHANE MR BOOI That is so, sir. MR SHANE MR BOOI He said that we did well if that was exactly what we did. MR SHANE Right. Now who was the commander? MR BOOI MR SHANE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE ADV STEENKAMP No questions thank you Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP MS GCABASHE Now, Dubula, did he live in your section? MR BOOI Yes. ADV GCABASHE And did he associate with the SDU comrades, the members? MR BOOI Yes, he knew them. ADV GCABASHE And how would he have come to know the spots where you hid your weapons? MR BOOI When these weapons are stored they are stored by a group of all the people who patrol. ADV GCABASHE Are you saying Dubula used to patrol with you? MR BOOI Dubula was quite an unpredictable person. He was staying in our residential area but it was not his actual home. He was just a person who was happened to be staying there. And whenever he was present we used to be surprised as to where does he actually belong. He would pretend to be participating in all the activities. ADV GCABASHE But did he patrol with you? MR BOOI Sometimes he did. ADV GCABASHE MR BOOI ADV GCABASHE Where was this? Was this at a house, in the veld, where exactly? MR BOOI It was in the veld. ADV GCABASHE Thank you very much. Thank you Chair. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Booi you said he sometimes pretended as if he was patrolling with you. And at the same time you said he was in close contact with hostel dwellers. My question is, was he really an IFP member? MR BOOI Yes, he was an IFP member. MR SIBANYONI How do you know that he was an IFP member? MR BOOI MR SIBANYONI Was he frequenting the hostels? MR BOOI CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED