amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-16 JOHANNESBURG 9 ANTHONY MACI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53193&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990216jh.htm MR SHANE Thank you Mr Chairman. Can we proceed with the next matter? I call Antony Maci. He is present. Pages 95 to 101 Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Maci what language would you want to use? MR MACI Xhosa. INTERPRETER UNKNOWN And how do you pronounce your surname? MR MACI INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? ANTONY MACI (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE MR MACI MR SHANE But you never ever signed it before a Commissioner of Oaths. Is that right? MR MACI MR SHANE MR MACI CHAIRPERSON When you signed this affidavit or statement were you aware of the contents of this statement? MR MACI Yes, I was fully aware of the contents of my statement. CHAIRPERSON And you understood it? MR MACI Yes, sir. CHAIRPERSON You were satisfied that it contained what you wanted it to contain? MR MACI That is correct, sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SHANE MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE You applied for amnesty first of all for the unlawful possession of firearms, is that correct? MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE What type of firearms were they? MR MACI MR SHANE MR MACI MR SHANE And you also possessed ammunition for these weapons? MR MACI Yes I had ammunition. MR SHANE And did that ammunition also include the projectile that we would fire from your so called bazooka? MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE And you say besides the possession of the weapon you were involved in the transportation of these weapons? MR MACI Yes, because the committee would give me funds to go and get these ammunitions from Polla Park, in Vosloorus hostel. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER May the speaker speak up, the applicant, we cannot hear him clearly. MR MACI We would go and look for arms in Polla Park and a hostel in Vosloorus. MR SHANE Would you buy them with money that was given to you by the community? MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE And you would buy them in Polla Park from a certain Mozambican by the name of David, who was in a wheelchair. Correct? MR MACI Yes, we bought them from David, and if he did not have stock, he would accompany us to Vosloorus where we would buy them and come back with the full stock. MR SHANE Right, you bought them at Vosloorus at a hostel, you said? MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Was this an IFP hostel? MR MACI That is correct. MR SHANE Now you also, you bought them from another person in Shongweni section, Katlehong, as well. MR MACI That is correct. It was a Mr Madikizela. MR SHANE And then you would transport these weapons back to the community. Can you tell the Commission, the Committee, whose vehicle did you use to transport? MR MACI MR SHANE And besides the weapons that you transported and bought, you also possessed your own AK-47 and pistol. Is that right? MR MACI Yes that is correct, sir. MR SHANE Now, you apply for amnesty for murder. MR MACI That is so, sir. MR SHANE Right. First of all, you murdered, you shot a person by the name of Sikelo Nyekane. MR MACI Yes I shot him, but it was a mistake. I thought they were the enemy, the police. MR SHANE Now, when you shot Sikelo, is it correct that you had recently been released from detention without trial? MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE You were in a house. MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Whose house was it? CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE Right, now explain ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You say that the killing of Nyekane was an accident, mistake. MACI That is so, sir. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane I would thank you not to interrupt me. Why do you say it was a mistake? MR MACI MR SHANE MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE When you thought it was the ISU, what did you think that they, that means the ISU, were going to do? MR MACI I thought they were going to arrest me, and detain me, and I was avoiding that. And I was in possession of an unlicensed AK-47 rifle. MR SHANE Now, besides you not getting any response to you asking who was there when you heard this knock, you mentioned something about kicking the door, on the door. This person that was there was kicking on the door. MR MACI Yes, sir. MR SHANE What type of kicking was that? MR MACI It was a rough kick, he was trying to kick the door open, that is why I thought it was the police. MR SHANE So is it a similar way that the police behaved when they came knocking on doors? MACI That is correct, sir. CHAIRPERSON Is that a bit of expert leading Mr Shane? Do you have personal knowledge of that? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Precisely, do you have it? How can you put it to him? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON So leave it to him to describe then. MR SHANE If this person who was on the other side of the door, the deceased Sikelo, if he responded to you when you asked who was there, would he have been shot? MR MACI MR SHANE Because Sikelo was not a political enemy. MACI Yes, he was not. MR SHANE And the only reason that you shot him was because in your mind it was the police on the other end of the door? MR MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Now you say when the door opened you opened fire with your AK-47. MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Did you shoot through the door ...(intervention) ADV GCABASHE MR SHANE Right, can you describe, after there was no response to you asking who was there, and you heard this rough kicking on the door, what did you do then? What actually happened then? MR MACI I became ready as I realised that it was the enemy that was kicking the door, which is the police. Therefore I prepared myself to shoot and I did shoot, and he landed inside the house and that is when I noticed that it was Sikelo. My uncle rushed him to hospital with his car, so that he should not die, because it was a mistake, he was not an enemy. Unfortunately he died at the hospital. MR SHANE Can you remember how many bullets you fired? MR MACI It was only bullet. MR SHANE Is it also true that you assisted with his funeral? CHAIRPERSON What has that got to do with the price of eggs Mr Shane? Are you trying to prove the man was not guilty? MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane I want to ask you not to clutter up the record unnecessarily, and lead your witness the way he should be led on the relevant issues. We are not concerned about his financial contribution to the funeral. MR SHANE MR MACI Our families came together and arrangements were made and everything was organised for his funeral in Transkei. MR SHANE MR MACI ADV GCABASHE Was Sikelo an SDU member? MR MACI We were staying together at my home. ADV GCABASHE So he was coming home actually, because he lived with you in that house? MR MACI That is correct. MR SIBANYONI How were you related to him? MR MACI They were renting on our premises and we all came from the Transkei. MR SHANE Now is it also correct you were involved in the killing of another two males? MACI That is correct, sir. MR SHANE Can you give a description of what happened there? CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on, when did the killing of Sikelo take place? MR MACI If my memory serves me well I think it was late 1993 or January 94. CHAIRPERSON MR MACI Truly speaking I cannot remember the date. CHAIRPERSON You estimate it in what year? MR MACI I think it was January 1994 but I cannot remember the date. CHAIRPERSON Yes proceed. MR SIBANYONI What time of the day was it when the incident happened? MR MACI I do not want to lie. CHAIRPERSON Well was it in the morning, afternoon, night, midnight, whatever? MR MACI It think it was past eight or past nine in the evening. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR SHANE Right, you were involved in the killing of another two people, males, correct? MR MACI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Can you give a description of what happened there? MR MACI I will talk about Mtolo first, Mtolo. There was a general meeting that was held at Mpumelela School in Makula Section. Mtolo had fled from Polla Park because he was the cause of the fights between the SDU's themselves who were shooting one another and Mtolo fled to Katlehong at Makula Section. We got the message that Mtolo was not a good person because he was also working with the police. He was supposed to be killed. Secondly ... MR SHANE Right, when you say he was supposed to be killed, did you get orders? MR MACI Yes, we were given orders. MR SHANE By who? MR MACI Our Commander, Bruce, told us to go and shoot him, it was myself, Max and Thabiso Mapige. I was armed with a pistol. The two of them were armed with AK47 rifles. We met with him at a passage. I fired the first shot, they followed with their AK47 rifles, I gave them a chance to shoot him with their AK47 rifles, and I was the one who shot first. He died. We left him there. CHAIRPERSON Before you shot him? MR MACI We found him at Makula Section, there was a passage. We found him there after we were looking for him at a certain place where he was residing. We met him at the passage and we killed him. MR SHANE Right. You were also involved in the killing of another person, can you give a description of that? MR MACI We shot Mr Ntshingila, Mr Ntshingila, after having received information from a gentleman who was staying at a house where we had put our firearms. We heard that Mr Ntshingila had told the police that we had hidden the guns in this gentleman's place and this gentleman was an inyanga, a healer, and he was well known even in the white community and they told him who gave them this information. An urgent meeting was convened at school and the issue of Ntshingila as an informant was discussed, and he was also a shop owner at Kwesine Hostel that was occupied by IFP members and the people from the townships would not go to that hostel. Mr Ntshingila was called to the meeting at the school and the community was there, people from our community. When he arrived there and when he was being questioned, he made some utterances that were showing that he was undermining everybody and he even mentioned that no one was going to touch him, he was going to bring the people from the IFP organisation to come and attack the Makula Section. The community was very angry and the community was forced to drive Mr Ntshingila to his place. The people from the community decided to cut their telephone wires and I was the first one to shoot him. Sol Bongani Madirabe shot him with a pump gun and another gentleman who is in kwaZulu Natal, who is in Newcastle, his name was Gorgothi, I cannot remember his real name, he was armed with an AK47 rifle, he also shot at him and he died. He died at his house. ADV GCABASHE Just go over that for me very briefly. He came to the meeting and was difficult at the meeting. Then he left the meeting and you followed him. Just from that point, where exactly did you kill him? MR MACI When we left the meeting, he was in the company of the community, he was driven to his home. When we arrived there, the telephone wires were disconnected and we did as the Commander said. ADV GCABASHE So this was a community meeting, not a SDU meeting? MR MACI Yes, that is correct, it was a meeting of the community and all the SDU members. ADV GCABASHE All of the people who were at that meeting, observed the execution of Mr Ntshingila? MR MACI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Right, now at this community meeting you said the community said certain things to the deceased. Members of the community spoke to the deceased at this meeting? MR MACI As he was called to the meeting, the intention was to question him as to why he was giving information to the police concerning the arms. He told the community that he was sick and tired of that in Makula community and he was about to bring the IFP members to come and attack the Makula Section. That is why he was killed. MR SHANE So from what you are saying, he actually threatened the community at the meeting? MR MACI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE Can you give the names of the other people that also were involved in his killing? MR MACI Members of the community, all of them were there. The people who shot at him, it was myself and Solomon and this other gentleman who is in Natal now. His nickname was Gorgothi. MR SHANE You were the one who shot first, is that right? MR MACI Yes, that is correct. MR SHANE How many bullets did you fire? MR MACI I cannot remember but I was using my pistol. MR SHANE What happened afterwards with all the weapons that you had, what became of them? MR MACI The weapons, I went to Malusko for police training and the weapons were left with the community members, and when I came back, I was told that those weapons were taken to the police station as they were instructed to do so. MR SHANE That is evidence, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions, thank you sir. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, I don't have questions for the applicant. MR SHANE I have no more applicants, Mr Chairman. May I be excused please? WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that it for today or ... MR SHANE That is it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shane, we just wanted to deal with one aspect before you go, Sicelo, in terms of your client's testimony, was killed accidentally. How does that event fall into the Act? MR SHANE Mr Chairman, as he testified, he only realised it was an accident after the event, in other words, when there was that knock on the door, and he described the type of knocking, it was a rough kind of kicking, that is what he described, he also asked who it was when there was this knock on the door. There was no answer. We also heard that he had recently been released from detention without trial. In his mind, this was the police, the ISU coming to arrest him to detain him, as he said. Quite clearly they were the enemy, he had his weapon, his AK47. In order to avoid giving these "police", though they weren't the police, but he shot. It is clearly I submit with respect, a political act on his part. Notwithstanding the fact that it was an accident. I hope that answers your question Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON If that is your view, deal with the following, that the Act gives particular guidelines in Section 20(3) where one has to consider the factual position and how it really improves the political situation of the party on whose behalf a person, the applicant, acted. Now, how did the killing of Sicelo improve the political position of the party on whose behalf your client acted that day? Never mind intention, what is the factual position? MR SHANE The factual position with respect is it didn't improve any political position. I am not going to argue that it did, because it didn't. CHAIRPERSON Now bearing that in mind, how does it fall within the ambit of the Act? First of all it can't be murder, he had no intention to murder Sicelo, not so? MR SHANE No intention to murder. CHAIRPERSON In the criminal court, what would it be? MR SHANE It would be negligent killing boiling down to culpable homicide. CHAIRPERSON As I understand the Act, it makes provision for the commission of crimes with the intention of improving a political position, not so? Does the Act make provision for accidents? MR SHANE First of all Mr Chairman, dealing with intention, I submit that intention is quite significant here because his intention when he fired the shot, was to kill the police, or to shoot the police, and that in itself, improves the political position that you were talking about. I would submit that the Act does not exclude mistakes or negligence. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say that? MR SHANE Well Mr Chairman, in this case, one would ask is all the negligence on the part of the applicant, remember as he said, had the deceased answered to his name when he was asked, there was no answer, but had he answered his name before he opened the door, had he answered his name, this incident would not have happened at all. CHAIRPERSON Yes. If he thought it was the police outside banging as he was asked to describe so graphically, why didn't he shoot through the door? MR SHANE I can't answer that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I ask that question in view of your argument, because you make out a particular argument. It follows then as I understand your argument, that if he really thought it was the police and he wanted to get away or whatever reason he shot, he should have shot through the door. MR SHANE Well Mr Chairman, it is significant that even though it is a bit hazy as to how he shot, the fact is when he shot, he did not know, when he shot, he did not know it was Sicelo, in his mind it was the police he was shooting at. It was only after Sicelo fell, that he realised the mistake. That is clear Mr Chairman, it was a mistake, but before the mistake was made, when he pulled the trigger, at that crucial time he pulled the trigger, in his mind, he was shooting at the police. CHAIRPERSON How does that help him? Let's assume that we accept that that was what his mind set was at that time, how does it help him? You've got to help us here, we are in a (indistinct). MR SHANE Mr Chairman, I will submit at the end of the day, it must be his intention. It was his intention to shoot the police. Everything, all the surrounding circumstances indicated to him that this is the police that is behind the door. There was no answer to his request for the person to identify himself, there was no response. The way that the door was knocked on, indicated to him this was the police. After there was no response, when he saw the door opening, he fired a shot through the door. That is as I understood his testimony. CHAIRPERSON Significantly that door opened and then he shot? MR SHANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON He didn't shoot through the door. He shot at the door once the door was opened, that is what happened? MR SHANE Well Mr Chairman, that is my argument, I can't take it any further. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SHANE Excuse me Mr Chairman, I must bring to your attention my client informs me that as far as he is concerned, he says he shot through the door. That was what he says and he says this might have been misinterpreted. I can't take that further, I don't know what the interpretation is. I don't know if it can be replayed, but I will say this as well Mr Chairman, my instructions in fact were, but I heard what you heard Mr Chairman, it certainly didn't come through in the interpretation that he shot through the door. That is certainly not the impression that I got from the interpretation. CHAIRPERSON What was interpreted, as soon as the door opened, he shot him? MR SHANE Yes, Mr Chairman, that is how I got it as well. I am told by my client that that is not what he said. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, is it possible for you and Mr Shane to listen to the tape recording and agree on what was actually said and whether the interpretation was correct or not? ADV STEENKAMP I will do that Mr Chairman. MR SHANE I can't assist, I don't understand the interpretation. CHAIRPERSON Is that the new interpretation? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, that is not my interpretation at all. CHAIRPERSON Is that the new interpretation, because what was interpreted, words to the effect that as soon as the door opened, I shot him? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I spoke to the Interpreter herself, and according to her, that was what was interpreted. It was interpreted that while kicking, he was shot. There was, the applicant shot at the door. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible for us to hear those tapes? ADV STEENKAMP It is possible Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Then let's hear it. ADV STEENKAMP Unfortunately, I cannot understand Zulu, but that is what was told to me. CHAIRPERSON Let's hear it. I've got a colleague here who can see if it was interpreted properly. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, that specific section is available. CHAIRPERSON We would like to hear it over here. We listened to the tape recording and we are in total agreement that what was said there was that as soon as the door opened, I shot him. It wasn't a question of shooting through the door. Mr Steenkamp, I don't know about your latest request, because I have already excused the applicant. I think in his favour, I don't think it is fair to put him at risk after he has been excused. Mr Shane, I understand that you know what the latest developments are, about a new witness? MR SHANE I was briefly told by Mr Steenkamp sir. CHAIRPERSON Well, I am not going to allow that. You can explain to your client please. What is next. Your client is excused. MR SHANE You also did excuse me sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, that will be the roll for today. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) ADV STEENKAMP Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So we've got seven left? ADV STEENKAMP (Microphone not on) One of the matters Mr Chairman, was actually removed from the roll, there is actually six matters for tomorrow. That is including Mr Selepe, will be seven, you are absolutely correct. CHAIRPERSON I want to finish that lot tomorrow. ADV STEENKAMP I have informed the attorneys already Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn till tomorrow nine o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS