amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-17 JOHANNESBURG 10 VICTOR PETER MOLOI AM6419/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53196&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990217jh.htm MR MAKANJEE Mr Chairman, I am Sanje Makanjee, I am appearing on behalf of Victor Peter Moloi, who I also call now to give evidence, it is application number 6419/97, appearing on page 189. CHAIRPERSON Mr Moloi, what language would you prefer to use? MR MOLOI Sesothu. VICTOR PETER MOLOI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE Mr Chairman, at the outset, I notice that on my client's application, at 9(a)(i) he mentions murder, attempted arson and damage to property. After taking instructions, it appears that it is in fact murder, arson and damage to property and it is not attempted arson. I just wish to clarify that. After leading my client, his explanation would become quite clear on that aspect. Mr Moloi, are you a member of the ANC? MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE You were a member of the Katlehong SDU, is that correct? MR MOLOI Yes. MR MAKANJEE You are applying for amnesty for murder, arson and malicious injury to property, is that correct? MR MOLOI Yes. MR MAKANJEE I notice in your application you state it was from 1993 to 1994. Could you be more specific as to when this incident occurred? MR MOLOI (No translation) ADV GCABASHE You are saying there were lots of people at home, your home? MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE Would you tell us about this incident in question please? MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE Mr Moloi, I just want you to take everything very slowly, the Committee is trying to write down what you say. So just be very slow, take your time please. ADV GCABASHE So there were 16 of you. Start at that point. MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE What did you do after that? MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE What did you have sir? MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE Do you know, can you name any of the other people who were with you? MR MOLOI (No translation) ADV GCABASHE Just on that particular day, because of what had been happening in the area? MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE Mr Moloi, tell us about the act of murder that you committed, be as specific as you can please. MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE Was the person dead when you left, after you had attacked him? MR MOLOI (No translation) MR MAKANJEE What did you do after you killed him? MR MOLOI We went to check these shacks that belonged to the IFP members, and those who were attacked, came during the night, who are not there, we set their shacks alight. We destroyed everything that belonged to them. We set the shacks alight. CHAIRPERSON How many? MR MOLOI Three shacks were set alight. MR MAKANJEE Did you do anything else to the body of the person that you had killed? MR MOLOI Nothing was done. ADV GCABASHE Did you leave him inside his shack? MR MOLOI Yes, we left him in the premises. He was a tenant there, that was not his home, that was not his own place. ADV GCABASHE And you burnt his shack, so the body was burnt in that burning of the shack, even this man's body? MR MOLOI No, he was outside the shack. We took him out of the shack. ADV GCABASHE So his body wasn't burnt at all? MR MOLOI No, his body wasn't burnt. MR MAKANJEE The shacks that you burnt, were badly damaged, is that correct? MR MOLOI Yes, it was badly damaged. MR MAKANJEE The petrol to burn the shacks, where did you get that from? CHAIRPERSON Is it relevant Mr Makanjee? MR MAKANJEE I just thought the Committee ... CHAIRPERSON It is burnt. MR MAKANJEE I've got no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE ADV STEENKAMP I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI No questions Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Just to help me understand your evidence properly, essentially what you are saying is the reason you went out as a group, eight and then 16, was to go and attack the people who had been attacking you and in doing so, protect your community, is this really what you are saying? This is the reason you went out that day? MR MOLOI To protect the community. ADV GCABASHE And you did this in circumstances where the community had very recently been attacked as well by members of... MR MOLOI Yes, immediately after they have attacked the community. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON You are excused. Or before you go, before you go, when did you join the SDU? MR MOLOI In 1993, early 1993 before the violence. CHAIRPERSON And one other issue, 16 of you and eight of you, did you go look for these IFP members? MR MOLOI We knew where they were staying, the members of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON You went out to go and get them? MR MOLOI We only got one, the one we killed. The others they ran away after they had attacked at night. CHAIRPERSON You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MAKANJEE Mr Chairman, I do have one other matter which is a hearable matter. The Prison Authorities did not bring the applicant to court today. I have informed them that he is in the awaiting trial section on another matter. CHAIRPERSON When are they promising to bring him? MR MAKANJEE I spoke to my colleague as well, and we were under the impression that he would be brought today, but I assume that if he hasn't been brought by now, they won't be bringing him today. CHAIRPERSON There is no chance, those guys stop work at two o'clock. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, my suggestion to my colleague was if he is not here today, he will probably be enrolled probably for the next hearing. Whatever the position is, however Mr Chairman, Ms Nhlayisi is ready with her next client, if you would allow that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, they have numerous problems with Correctional Services. I am in the process trying to sort it out. CHAIRPERSON Keep us updated on that. ADV STEENKAMP I will do so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON How many have we got left, how many applications? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, for the day, basically two. It is Ms Nhlayisi and a client of Mr Sanje Makanjee. CHAIRPERSON And then we are done with this? ADV STEENKAMP Yes Mr Chairman, then only the question of Mr Selepe which was standing down. It will probably be heard, I would suggest with all due respect Mr Chairman, it will probably be dealt with by tomorrow morning. CHAIRPERSON Okay. ADV STEENKAMP I will see if I can sort that out in the meantime as well. CHAIRPERSON So we've got two that will probably be handled tomorrow, both from the prisons? ADV STEENKAMP Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, let us get done with Ms Nhlayisi's. ADV STEENKAMP Yes, that is correct, and then the question, it is the one applicant of Mr Sibeko, which will probably not be, he will probably not be attending today, so I am just waiting for the final word from Mr Sibeko. There is a probability that the application will also be withdrawn. Thank you Mr Chairman.