amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-17 JOHANNESBURG 10 LUCKY THEMBA BUTHELEZI AM7563/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53197&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990217jh.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Nhlayisi? MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. The applicant's name is Lucky Themba Buthelezi. His application appears on page 88, application number AM7563/97. The applicant is bringing an application for amnesty for possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, murders for undetermined number of people, and attempted murders for undetermined number of people. CHAIRPERSON Mr Buthelezi, which language would you prefer to use? MR BUTHELEZI Zulu. LUCKY THEMBA BUTHELEZI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Be seated. Mr Buthelezi, I see you are dressed in prison clothes. Are you serving a sentence at the moment? MR BUTHELEZI I am serving a sentence for another incident, not the ones that I am applying amnesty for. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Buthelezi, you were a member of the SDU in Skosana Section, Katlehong, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI When did you join the SDUs? MR BUTHELEZI In 1991. MS NHLAYISI Who was your Commander at that stage? MR BUTHELEZI Comrade Mqoma and Mathule Mtabela. MS NHLAYISI Were they Commanders at the same time, or was it Mqoma first and then at a later stage it became Mathule Mtabela, what was the position? MR BUTHELEZI Mqoma was my Commander first, and then Mathule later. MS NHLAYISI In your application form, you are mentioning an incident that took place at Buyafuthi Hostel. Could you tell the Committee when did this incident take place, in which year was it? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I can. It was in 1993, if I remember, I think it was in April. Commander Mqoma received a telephone call from Radebe Section. They were complaining that IFP members are attacking them. Mqoma called us from our bases at Skosana Section. He told us that people were being attacked at Radebe Section and we were supposed to go and help the community there. We left, it was myself, Commander Mqoma, Mathule Mtabela and comrade Sitaba. On our way to Radebe, Stability Units stopped us, but we tried to escape. We went back where we came from. We left the weapons there at our base. We tried to go back to the township, to Radebe Section where the incident had occurred. When we arrived there, we found out two people were injured, three were injured and two were killed. We came together with the community of Radebe and some people from Tokoza. MS NHLAYISI Before you proceed, on your arrival at Radebe Section, when you found that two people were dead and three were injured, was the fight between the IFP and the members of your Self Defence Units, still going on, or the IFP members had left at that stage, what was the position? MR BUTHELEZI If you could please repeat your question. MS NHLAYISI You said you arrived at Radebe to find that two people were dead, three were injured. What was going on at that stage? Was the shooting between the IFP members and the Self Defence Unit in Radebe still going on at that stage? MR BUTHELEZI No, IFP were attacking the community in Radebe Section. They were the ones who were attacking the community. When these three people were taken to hospital, we got together, we had a meeting as SDU from Radebe and Tokoza and Skosana members. We decided that the following day we were supposed to attack them. We decided that we were going to launch the attack in the morning the next day. We left Radebe, we entered Tokoza, we came from Unit F. We were 17 if I remember very well. Just before we arrived at the place, my Commander told me that I was the one who was supposed to shoot because there were IFP members at the gate of the hostel. I don't know if they ere guarding the place or what, but there was a fire there and we were waiting there. The person who gave me the command was comrade Mathule. He said I was the one who was supposed to shoot those people. I started crawling towards the gate where these people were standing. I started shooting. I think I shot about 32 bullets from my AK47. MS NHLAYISI Do you know whether any people were killed in this incident, when you fired at this group of people that you found at the gate? CHAIRPERSON Before you answer that question, were you the only one that discharged the firearm there? INTERPRETER I didn't get that one. CHAIRPERSON Were you the only one that discharged firearms there in that operation? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, I was the only one. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. Do you know when you fired shots, whether anybody was killed as a result of you firing some shots at that group of people that you found standing at the gate. MR BUTHELEZI No, I don't know, but I have seen others falling down and some were running away. Therefore I don't know whether some people died or not. I shot about 32 rounds. Some ran away and some fell down. After that, I took a cover and I went back to the SDU members who were there, and we went back to Radebe Section and we dismissed from there, we went back to our respective areas. MS NHLAYISI You are also not in a position to tell this Committee how many people fell on the ground as you were shooting? CHAIRPERSON Do you know if anybody died? MR BUTHELEZI I don't know for sure, I don't remember. When I was shooting at this group of people, I was at a distance. I saw them because they had a fire there around, there where they were standing. Yes, I was pointing at them and some of them fell and some ran away. I don't know whether they died or they just got injured. MS NHLAYISI Because you do not know whether people died or were injured in that incident, but because you saw people falling down, you are now applying for amnesty for murder, for an undetermined number of people and attempted murder, is that correct? MR BUTHELEZI That is correct. MS NHLAYISI You are also applying for amnesty for possessing an unlicensed firearm and ammunition? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON In view of the fact that we have not been provided with evidence of any depth, what is the position about the application in respect of murder because murder by definition requires someone to die? Would it not be more prudent to amend the application to that of attempted murder of an undetermined number of people? MS NHLAYISI I think that will be appropriate in the circumstances Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. There were 17 of you who went to Buyafuthi Hostel that morning. It was Buyafuthi, wasn't it? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, it was. ADV GCABASHE What did the other 16 do while you executed the actual shooting? MR BUTHELEZI They were protecting me, they were taking cover to protect me - if I was in danger, they were going to come for me. ADV GCABASHE So the other 16 were armed as well? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, that is correct. ADV GCABASHE But not one of them fired any shots? MR BUTHELEZI No one fired any shot because the order was issued to me directly. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. This Buyafuthi Hostel, we have had evidence of it being attacked, I think with the assistance of a casper? Do you know about that? It may have been a different incident? MR BUTHELEZI I know that. CHAIRPERSON Was this in fact another incident that you testified on? MR BUTHELEZI Yes, it is a different incident, it is not the same day. CHAIRPERSON Did your incident occur first or the other one? MR BUTHELEZI My incident occurred first. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chairman, that concludes my role. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, is that all that we can do today? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, just for record purposes, the last applicant Zakwe Thambiso, that is the client of Mr Vusi Sibeko, the applicant is available, he is here now. I am informed that his wife is in hospital with an urgent position. That is why he was late. Unfortunately the position is still urgent and there is a request if you would allow it, if you would indulge it Mr Chairman, that this matter can stand down till tomorrow morning, that we can have a final position on that? CHAIRPERSON In the circumstances we have to stand it down till tomorrow. By my count, we have four matters outstanding for tomorrow? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, it is actually only three matters, because one matter was removed from the roll, that is the matter of Moloi and then the other matter was withdrawn by Mr Sibeko. It is only, basically three matters standing down till tomorrow. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. CHAIRPERSON I hope we are in a position to - how to be able to give judgments in matters that we are able to give so, and probably most of the matters heard this week on Friday morning. Those who are interested in the decisions can come on Friday morning, although we will listen to the other applications tomorrow. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, if I may remind there is a position about, I understand a meeting on Friday. CHAIRPERSON That is why I say Friday morning. We will adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS