amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-18 JOHANNESBURG 11 BRUNO SKHOSANA AM 7180/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53198&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020118_jhb_990218jh.htm MRS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. My first application is Bruno Skhosana. It appears in the small bundle, supplement one. The pages are not numbered, but it is page 8 if you count the pages, page number 8. Application number AM7180/97. CHAIRPERSON Mr Skhosana, which language would you prefer to use? MR SKHOSANA Zulu. BRUNO SKHOSANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Skhosana, you completed an amnesty application form. Was it on your own or were you assisted by somebody else? MR SKHOSANA I completed the form on my own. MRS NHLAYISI You were happy with the contents, the information that you gave in that form? Are you happy that that is what you wanted to complete? MR SKHOSANA Yes, I am satisfied. MRS NHLAYISI The form that I am showing to you right now, is this the form which you completed? MR SKHOSANA Yes. MRS NHLAYISI Do you confirm the contents thereof? MR SKHOSANA Yes, I do. ADV GCABASHE Ms Nhlayisi, does that include the ID number? Is that correct? MRS NHLAYISI Yes, the ID number is correct. Mr Chair, the applicant is bringing an application for amnesty for the following, unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition and three counts of murder. The names of the victims are unknown. CHAIRPERSON What was the first one? MRS NHLAYISI Excuse me? CHAIRPERSON What was the first one? MRS NHLAYISI Unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition. Mr Skhosana, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR SKHOSANA Yes. MRS NHLAYISI When did you join? MR SKHOSANA In 1991 or 1992. MRS NHLAYISI For which Section were you a member? MR SKHOSANA Mlangeni Section, that is also called (indistinct) MRS NHLAYISI Okay, you indicated during our consultation that at a later stage, you were deployed in Slovo Section, is that correct? MR SKHOSANA Yes, that is correct. MRS NHLAYISI Who were your Commanders in these two Sections? MR SKHOSANA Mt Mlangeni Section it was Vusi Malinga, at Slovo it was Suzi, I do not know his surname. MRS NHLAYISI In your application form you indicated that you are applying for amnesty for killing three people. Just tell us about the first incident. When did it happen? MR SKHOSANA The first one took place in 1993, around September. I was at Mlangeni Section, I was coming from Slovo Section. When I was there, I heard gunshots at Slovo Section. I went back to Slovo Section. When I arrived there, the other comrades were with this well known person who used to be seen during the fights between the IFP and ANC. MRS NHLAYISI Then what happened on your arrival there? MR SKHOSANA The other comrades had this person, he was captured by the other comrades. He was taken to Nhlapo Quntu. He was stabbed, he was also assaulted. They told me that they were looking for me because they needed a spade, they were actually referring to an AK47. I had to go and fetch this AK47. When I arrived there, he was already shot with a pistol on his head. I realised that this person was already dying, therefore I decided to do nothing. I left. On my way out of that house that belonged to Khumalo in Tokoza, comrade Bkeki came and he told me that this person was trying to wake up. I went back and I saw him trying to hold on the fence and I shot at him. I shot him at the back. I shot him behind his head, just on the neck. I saw him falling. I came closer and I shot him on the head and he was quiet after that. I left the scene. MRS NHLAYISI You mentioned earlier that this person was known to be an IFP member. What information did you have to confirm that this person was an IFP member? MR SKHOSANA As we were fighting with the IFP members, when they used to appear from their site, shooting at our direction, I used to see this person. I knew him, he would appear and shoot at us. He had an R4 rifle. He would come and shoot, directing at us, and we used to identify him with his red head band, that is why I was sure that that was the person, because I used to see him closer as he would be shooting next to Buthelezi Street. MRS NHLAYISI On this particular day, did he have the red head band? MR SKHOSANA When I arrived, the band was not on his head, but the comrades had this red head band. MRS NHLAYISI So you said you knew this person, you saw him on previous occasions, but you do not know his name, is that correct? MR SKHOSANA Yes, I did not know his name. MRS NHLAYISI Okay. Can you remember who were present when this incident happened, your fellow comrades? MR SKHOSANA Comrade Bayo and Mzwake. I cannot remember the others, those are the only two people that I can remember. MRS NHLAYISI The second incident, where did it take place? MR SKHOSANA That took place at Nhlapo Street. We were patrolling there. A boy of about 18 years old, appeared and he came closer and we were watching him. He turned, he took a turn at Buthelezi Street and we went straight to him and we captured him, and we questioned him. We wanted to know what it was that he was looking for, because he was coming from the other side. He said he was there, his brother brought him there, because there was a job for him, this job that was to be done at Buyafuthi. He said there was a firm or a factory that was at Buyafuthi. We captured this boy and we searched him. In his hand, he had a piece of paper with the medicine inside and in his pocket, he had some small bottles containing muti. We took him, we said we are going to show him where Buyafuthi was. We took him down Gubeni Street and I was the one who was holding him. I questioned him further and I asked him what is it that he knows about this particular firm. He said he was not certain or he was not sure what was happening there, but I told him that the firm, the factory that he was talking about, it was the place where they were killing the people, because that was a well known rumour that the people from Buyafuthi were fetching people to kill. They were taking people to kill and I asked for a cigarette from Bizo and I instructed him to hold this young man. I handed over this young boy to Bayo when I was trying to lick my cigarette. I was this young boy running away, he escaped from Bayo's hands and he ran away. Bizo had an AK47. I grabbed that AK47 from Bizo, I knelt down and when he was about to take a corner, I shot him. We ran after him and he was already falling. I shot him on the head. When I left there, I went back to Nhlapo Street. I don't know what happened thereafter. I later realised that he died. The other comrade decided to set him alight. MRS NHLAYISI So the fact that this person said to you that he was looking for the hostel Buyafuthi and he has been promised a job there, what impression did you get? MR SKHOSANA What came to my mind was this, this person was there, he was on his way to Buyafuthi to kill because during those times, people would be fetched from kwaZulu Natal to the hostels and those people would kill people. MRS NHLAYISI After you shot him, you said you left. When you left, was he already dead? Did you notice whether he was dead or not? MR SKHOSANA When I left that scene after shooting him, I saw that he couldn't survive, because I shot him right in the head and the way he was bleeding, to me that was a sign that he was going to die. Therefore I left the scene. MRS NHLAYISI You said you also used an AK47 on this particular incident, is that correct? MR SKHOSANA Yes, that is true. MRS NHLAYISI The third incident, where did it happen? MR SKHOSANA We were patrolling with the other comrades at Slovo Section. There was a place that was declared a no-go zone after Buthelezi Street. This woman came from another direction. We were at Khumalo Street and then she came down Mdagani Street. We had information previously that there was a person who was coming down the street, and we should monitor that particular person. When she came, she came down Buthelezi and she went up once again. MRS NHLAYISI You said you got information that there was a person that you should monitor. From who did you get this particular information? MR SKHOSANA There were comrades who were stationed at Mdagani Street and they sent a boy to come and tell us that there was a person that was coming down Mdagani Street, who was about to take a turn at that particular point. We waited for her and she went, she took a turn. She went up to the upper direction. We decided to take a chance and walk through the no-go area to see where this person was actually going to. When we did that, going to that no-go area, when we were about to reach Khumalo Street, we took cover in another house. We saw this person. There was a group of Inkatha members with AK47's. She talked to them and we saw her talking to these IFP members with AK47's. We saw these people pointing towards Mdagani Street as if they were going to walk down Mdagani Street, and to Buthelezi Street. When she took another turn, we saw these people jumping over to Mdagani Street. MRS NHLAYISI Then what happened thereafter? ADV GCABASHE You saw them pointing towards Mdagani Street and they entered Mdagani Street, is that where you were? Is that correct? MR SKHOSANA Yes, we were in Mdagani Street, in one of the circles. Mdagani Street was facing Khumalo and when we saw them, they came from the third house from where we were. When we went in there, we went back to Buthelezi Street. ADV GCABASHE Sorry, did they then enter Mdagani Street, these people? MR SKHOSANA Yes, they went through Mdagani Street and they went towards another direction. MRS NHLAYISI Where did this woman go? MR SKHOSANA She took a turn, she went through Khumalo Street, to Buthelezi Street. When she arrived next to Buthelezi, we were on the other side and prevented her from going further because we told them, we had told the other people that the woman was coming from those people who were our enemies. They captured her and we took her to Nhlapo Street and we questioned her. She said she was looking for a church, Masango Church, Apostolic Church, the St John's Apostolic Church and we promised her that we were going to direct her to the church, but we raised our suspicions but we decided to direct, to give her directions to Masango. We took her to Ngubeni Street and we directed her to go through Mavimbela Street and then we told her that when she reaches Mavimbela, she has to ask some people that would show her to the place. We decided that another group of people must go straight and check if this woman was really getting to this St John's Apostolic Church. We decided to wait at a second house and we waited for these people to give us information about this woman. When she was about to reach the veld in front of the furrow, she took a turn again, she went towards Mapanzela School and now it looked like she was going to this group of people. She was facing the Dube Street where the Inkatha people were staying. She took another turn, going towards that direction and we decided to get out of that second house. Basdi had a 7.65 pistol. I grabbed that firearm and I went straight to this woman and she ran away. I called her and when she looked back, she saw us and she ran away. In that process I shot her from behind. She fell. I came closer and I shot her for the second time. I shot her on the head and I left the scene. MRS NHLAYISI Okay, the fact that you saw this woman coming from the no-go area and the fact that you saw her talking to IFP people, what impression did that make in your mind? MR SKHOSANA What came to my mind at that particular time, because we were watching her, we wanted to know what was happening, and when we found her talking to these people, and these people now were telling her where to go and they were going to take another direction, I told myself that this woman was a spy and she was sent down to check the situation and our base where we were. MRS NHLAYISI In your application form, you mentioned on page 3 that all these people were killed and then burnt. Were you present when the bodies were burnt? MR SKHOSANA The other two people, the first one and - the males, the first one and the second one, when their bodies were set alight, I was not present, but this woman, after deciding to go back to Ngubeni Street, I met with the other comrades who had petrol and I went back to the scene and I saw them pouring petrol over her body and they set her alight. I did not participate in setting her alight, I just stood there and watched them setting her body alight. MRS NHLAYISI The last victim, you also do not know her name and particulars, is that correct? MR SKHOSANA No, I know nothing about her. MRS NHLAYISI Who were present when this incident took place, your fellow comrades? Can you remember who was there? MR SKHOSANA I remember that Mqunu was there, Basdi was also there and I cannot remember the other people who were there. MRS NHLAYISI In our consultation you also mentioned Nkosana, is that correct? MR SKHOSANA Nkosana is the one who is also called Basdi. MRS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you sir. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP MR SIBANYONI In your application you also mention that Mpegeleli and Nqedesi were also there. Is that correct? MR SKHOSANA Yes, that is correct. MR SIBANYONI I am referring now to the boy you met who said he was going to Buyafuthi. If he was not connected to the IFP, was it possible for him to stay at Buyafuthi Hostel? MR SKHOSANA No ways, that was not possible for him to be there, because during the violence, the only people who would stay at Buyafuthi was the IFP members. The people from the township wouldn't set their foot at Buyafuthi Hostel. MR SIBANYONI Where did he say he came from, where was his home? MR SKHOSANA He said he was coming from kwaZulu Natal, Inhandla. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. The same incident, the chap from Inhandla, where was he stabbed and assaulted, in Nhlapo Street or Nhlapo Section? MR SKHOSANA He was not stabbed, he was shot. The only one who was stabbed, was the one that used to be among the Inkatha members during the fight. ADV GCABASHE Oh, I beg your pardon, you are quite right. It is the first incident I am looking at. The chap who had been captured by the time you got there, that is the one i am talking about. Where was it, at Nhlapo Section or Nhlapo Street? MR SKHOSANA Nhlapo Street. ADV GCABASHE Street? In respect of the chap from Inhandla this time, were you saying it was Bayo you were with, I was not sure of the name, was it Bayo? You were with Bayo? MR SKHOSANA Bayo, yes. ADV GCABASHE Okay, and then the last one is the woman, Mdagani Street and Buthelezi Street are very close? MR SKHOSANA Yes, they are close. They are in the form of a T-junction, Mdagani is going through. ADV GCABASHE Okay, then that solves my problem there. Just give me a minute, and then finally the same woman, when they set her body light, was she still alive? MR SKHOSANA No, she was already dead. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MRS NHLAYISI Thank you Mr Chair, that concludes my roll. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, Mr Sibeko will be taking over from Ms Nhlayisi.