amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-16 JOHANNESBURG 6 JOHN RADEBE AM 200/96 MURDER OF MS NDUMO & ATTEMPTED MURDER OF MS ELSIE MOKOENA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53206&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020818_jhb_990216ji.htm CHAIRPERSON Today we are proceeding with the application of Mr John Radebe in respect of the killing Ms Ndumo and the attempted murder of Ms Elsie Mokoena. Ms Moloisane, are you ready to proceed? MS MOLOISANE ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR LAX Sorry, could you just switch your microphone on, thank you. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, we are in a position to proceed with this application, and we haven't prepared any supplementary affidavit. At this stage I wish to call the applicant, Njanjana John Radebe. CHAIRPERSON Is he going to testify in Sesotho? MS MOLOISANE He has indicated to me that he is willing to testify in Sesotho. He's not that well-conversant in English and he therefore prefers to present his evidence in Sesotho. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, will you please rise. Are you prepared to take an oath? JOHN RADEBE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may be seated. You may proceed, Ms Moloisane. EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you, Madam Chair and Committee Members. Mr Radebe, you are in prison right now, serving a period of 13 years for having committed two counts of murder - let me rephrase this, Madam Chair. You are in prison right now, serving a term of imprisonment of 13 years, is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MS MOLOISANE And you were convicted on two counts of murder and possession of arms and ammunition, is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE Let me put it this way, you were first convicted for the murder of one, Maletsatsi Marumo, is that not so? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE And later on you were convicted for the murder of Hapile Ndumo and for the assault on Elsie Mokoena, is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE Briefly tell this Committee the circumstances surrounding the murder of Maletsatsi Marumo in 1992. CHAIRPERSON I thought by agreement, we had all agreed that we will get the testimony from Mr Radebe in respect of the killing of Ms Ndumo and the assault of Ms Mokoena first because the Evidence Leader has to lead evidence of Ms Mokoena in respect of that particular incident and thereafter you'll be given an opportunity to call Mr Radebe to give evidence in respect of the killing of Maletsatsi. MS MOLOISANE As it please you, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON So we would expect him to give evidence only in respect of the Ndumo and Mokoena incident, for now, and once that incident has been testified to by him we'll then afford the Evidence Leader an opportunity of proceeding to lead evidence of Ms Mokoena. MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you Madam Chair. Now you and your co-accused were accused of the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the assault, you were convicted of the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the assault on Elsie Mokoena and the illegal possession of arms and ammunition, together with your co-accused in that case, Samuel Neti, Abraham Mkhwanazi and Borman Letsulo(?), is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE And you are currently in prison, serving a term of 13 years, is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE Now tell this Committee about the circumstances that led to the events of the 15th of August 1993 in Sebokeng, that is that led to the killing of Hapile Ndumo and to the assault on Elsie Mokoena and to the possession of those arms and ammunitions illegally. Proceed. MR RADEBE It was in 1993 on the 15th of August, it was on Sunday. I was at Small Farm, my two comrades arrived, that is Borman Letsulo and Abraham Mkhwanazi. They were on their way to Zone 7. I requested them that we should start at Ndluli's place, then I'll accompany them to Zone 7 so that they will be able to see one person there at the tavern. We agreed that we should start at Ndluli's place ...(intervention) MR LAX Could you just slow down a little bit please. We are very worried that what you say will not be interpreted if you're going too fast. It also makes it very difficult for us to take the notes down. Do you understand? MR RADEBE ...(no English interpretation) MR LAX So if you could please, without interfering in the way you testify, just try and be a little bit slower, it would really help all of us, thanks. Just to say this, you said it was a Sunday, you were at Small Farm, your comrades, Letsulo and Mkhwanazi stopped, they were on their way to Zone 7, you requested them to pass - I didn't catch the name, was it Ndluli's tavern, Ndluli's place? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Carry on from there please. MR RADEBE We arrived at that tavern, the three of us, we entered the tavern. I looked for the person whom I was looking for and then he was not present there. When we went outside I informed my comrades that I saw Hapile and Elsie inside the tavern. As I knew that those people were wanted within Sebokeng community that is why I informed my comrades that we should take these people to the office in Zone 12 ...(intervention) MS MOLOISANE You said they were wanted, would you please explain to this Committee why were they wanted, why do you say they were wanted? MR RADEBE It was in regard to the murders which prevailed in Sebokeng, about the shootings of innocent people. We called them. They went outside the tavern and we stood outside. CHAIRPERSON Did what? - you caught them? MR RADEBE I called them at the gate in the tavern. It was myself, Letsulo, Abraham Mkhwanazi, Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena. I told them that you are wanted within Sebokeng community. Hapile replied and said: "We know that we are wanted, but about what?" I told them that at this time we cannot talk much about those issues. I confronted Elsie that we are going to Zone 12 now. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, try and give your evidence at a pace that will enable the translator to translate everything that you are saying and enable the Committee as well as the Evidence Leader to take down that which is being translated from Sesotho into English by the translators. So try and be a little slower. MR LAX Can you just go back please. You said you were at the gate outside the tavern having called them, there was Elsie and yourself and your comrades and then a discussion takes place at that point, just continue from there. If you wouldn't mind just repeating the details of the discussion to us please. MR RADEBE I was the one who was talking and then I told that: "You know that you are wanted in Sebokeng", and then I told them: "I request you to go to Zone 12 in the office". That is when Elsie Mokoena said she is not going there. I wanted to verify as to whether she is not prepared to go there, then she said she's not prepared, then I asked her for a second time that is she not prepared to go, then I took the pistol, that is a 7.65. I shot her twice. MS MOLOISANE Why were you having a pistol in your possession? MR RADEBE It was for my protection and to protect the Sebokeng community. I used to have it all the time with me because we were patrolling ...(intervention) MR LAX ...(indistinct) 7,65. MS MOLOISANE In what capacity? MR RADEBE There were IFP groups who were staying at Kwamadala Hostel. Always they would enter in Sebokeng and shoot people, people who were defenceless, to a point where we as comrades met and discussed about that problem. That is where we formed the Self Defence Unit. That is why all the time we would be armed to protect people, our people, from the people who were shooting the community. Because at times a car would just enter the township and they would start shooting, then I'd be unarmed, so at all times I would have that pistol so as to protect myself and the community. MS MOLOISANE You said you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, was it aligned to any political organisation? MR RADEBE Yes, it was aligned to the ANC. MS MOLOISANE Who formed this Self Defence Unit? I mean what I want is somebody in authority who formulated this unit. MR RADEBE May you please repeat your question. MS MOLOISANE How were these units formed, by whom? MR RADEBE They were not there before. There was an Inkatha group or Inkatha groups which were killing people in Sebokeng communities, to a point where people went outside for MK trainings. They came up with the idea and they said we are present and we are here as MK cadres. CHAIRPERSON I'm going to stop you there. I'm not on the same page as you, Ms Moloisane. You are now asking him questions about something which is completely different to what he was busy testifying to. He was right in the middle of giving us testimony in respect of a particular incident and you're questioning elicits information which is completely different to what he was still busy testifying. It's going to play havoc with our record. However, he is also not responding to your questions. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair, we will tackle this at a later stage. I will ask the applicant to proceed with the events as they happened on the 15th of April, on the 15th of August '93. Mr Radebe, let's go back to the events of the 15th of August 1993 outside the tavern. After having shot Elsie Mokoena twice, what happened? MR RADEBE She ran away. There was a two-roomed house around the tavern, she ran into the two-roomed house. Hapile ran inside the tavern. I had two pistols with, on me. I took another pistol and gave it to Mkhwanazi. A 7.62. Mkhwanazi chased the one who entered the tavern, then I chased the one who ran inside the 2-roomed house. I found people inside that 2-roomed house. When I looked ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE MR LAX Sorry, just repeat the name for me please. MR RADEBE Mr Sipapo. Sipapo. ADV BOSMAN Is he also known as Stanley? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON You said something about Mr Sipapo having helped you. In what respect? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Now where did you leave Letsolo and the two ladies, at the gate next to the tavern? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Does that place have a name, like in terms of a Zone? MR RADEBE Tavern is in Zone 8, then we left them at Small Farm. We went to Mr. Sipapo ...(intervention) MR LAX Sir, before you go on. Where did you leave them? At some house, or in an open place, or in the middle of the road? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Approximately 300 metres. CHAIRPERSON Just be precise when you give evidence because you now give us an impression that they were left quite far away from where Sipapo was staying. You may proceed. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair, before we, before he proceeds, INTERPRETER MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON What was the purpose of going to his place? MR RADEBE MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON But why was it necessary for another guard to be obtained? You already Mkhwanazi there and Ntjolo. MR RADEBE It was necessary that Samuel Neti should remain with Ntjolo. Myself and Abraham Mkhwanazi should leave together. CHAIRPERSON Why? You are only going there in order to get ammunition, why was it necessary for you to be accompanied by Mr Mkhwanazi? MR RADEBE There would be a place where we would store our arms. I have no right to go there alone. I should be accompanied by another comrade, because if I go there alone I would not get anything. That is why it was necessary to go with Abraham Mkhwanazi. CHAIRPERSON Your evidence is not that you stored arms. You were looking for ammunition and you went from people after people ...(intervention) MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. In fact there would be no-one whom I would go to any community member because we used to address these issues in our meetings, that there will be no person who should go to our assistant alone, because tomorrow I will get there on my personal reasons, because maybe one of my friend is looking for that ammunition, then I would take my friend there and collect them. That is why there should be a comrade who would accompany me, as members of the defence unit were known. MR LAX Does that mean you were not known as a defence unit member? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE They were known. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER The interpretation was, they were known. MR LAX MR RADEBE The community knew us ourselves as members of the unit. We have our own way of operating. That is, in terms of the code of conduct. Because for example I would have a friend who is not known by the community, then I would go to that particular place, perhaps Mr Sipapo or somebody, and give me the ammunition. That is not the way we used to operate, but something of that sort would happen. That is why we did not find ourselves in that particular situation that one comrade would collect ammunition and misuse them. MR LAX But, if there were two comrades and you both had some ulterior motive you could still get away with it. What difference would it make? MR RADEBE MR LAX CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MR RADEBE Then I went with Abraham Mkhwanazi. Our ANC office was in Hollywood Night Club. MR LAX Can we just clarify something? So when you left with Mkhwanazi, you left Neti and Ntjolo guarding the two ladies, and you went off to Hollywood, is that right? MR RADEBE That is correct. MR LAX Please continue. MR RADEBE In Hollywood we met comrade Stanley, and I informed him that we caught the two people, these two, these particular two people. Then we are going to kill them. Then he instructed us that we should do the good job, so that we would be able not to be arrested. I told him that we would not make a mistake, they would be killed. MS MOLOISANE Did you explain to Stanley who you were talking about, the people you were talking about? Did you explain to him who were the people that you were talking about? MR RADEBE Yes I did, that it is Hapile and we used to call Elsie Mandayi. That is why he did not ask many questions, only told us to do the good job. MS MOLOISANE Will you explain to the Committee who this Stanley is. Why was it necessary to talk to Stanley about Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena? MR RADEBE Stanley was the chairperson of the ANC. He was a member of, he was the chairperson of the ANC youth league. Stanley is, was there before when they were assaulted, in regard to their Inkatha activities. That is why it was necessary for me to inform him. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON At the time when you gave evidence before Justice Goldblatt, did you say that Stanley was the branch secretary. And that is at page 3 of the judgment. I just recall reading something which is contrary to what you are saying now in your viva voce. MR LAX Page 3 line 30, it goes over the page onto page 4 of the judgment, first line. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE I did. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, I verify that he was the chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Of the ANC youth league? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Could he also held the portfolio of being a secretary of the branch of the ANC, not necessarily the ANC youth league? MR RADEBE He was the secretary of the ANC youth league, and when we elected again, we, when portfolios were shuffled, then he became the chairperson. CHAIRPERSON At the time when you went to him to advise him of this incident for which you are seeking amnesty, are you sure he was then chairperson of the ANC youth league? MR RADEBE Yes, he was the chairperson of the ANC youth league. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed. MR RADEBE MR LAX Just slow down. There was some rather strange term in the way it way interpreted. You said Samuel Neti sacrificed that he would stay behind and together with this other comrade drag her to the ground. Did I understand that correctly? MR RADEBE Yes. That is what it is. CHAIRPERSON Can we just get clarity, because we do not comprehend that sentence. What do you mean when you say Samuel Neti said he would sacrifice? MR RADEBE He volunteered that we should leave and they would drag her to the ground. CHAIRPERSON He volunteered that you should leave and they would drag Ndumo, or he volunteered to drag Ndumo, and that you should leave? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why was it necessary for someone to drag Ndumo? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON What did you say when Neti said that to you? Did you ask him to explain himself? MR RADEBE No I did not want to ask him questions. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Will you proceed and tell us what happened after he had volunteered to drag her? MR RADEBE Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON Will you proceed and give us more information after Neti had volunteered to drag Ms Ndumo. What happened thereafter? MR RADEBE I went to my place and I took my suitcase. CHAIRPERSON Did you see Neti indeed dragging Ms Ndumo? MR RADEBE No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RADEBE MS MOLOISANE MR RADEBE That is Nkosana Tshabalala. MS MOLOISANE Why was it necessary to go to him? MR RADEBE That was the person who was there within that group at the time when we were together with Hapile. Unfortunately I saw, fortunately I saw Nkosana then I gave him another gun. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean when you say he was the person who was there? Was he part of a group, and if so, we have not heard any evidence about a group having been there at any stage. We only know Ntjolo, Mkhwanazi, Neti and yourself. MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Where did this group come from? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Who had gathered immediately on hearing that you had caught some IFP spies. MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was this group comprising comrades, or ordinary members of your community? MR RADEBE They were members or supporters of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Some of them were just ordinary members of the community, others were comrades. I did not have time to identify those who formed that group. CHAIRPERSON But you say that Nkosana was a comrade? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he belong to a self defence unit structure? MR RADEBE Yes, in Small Farm. CHAIRPERSON And his unit was located at Small Farm? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And where was your unit located? MR RADEBE I started at Small Farm. CHAIRPERSON So he belonged to the same unit as yourself? MR RADEBE Yes. Because later I operated in Zone 12. Then from Zone 12 then I went to Sasol, where I received underground military training. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe my questions are only confined to the incident around the 15th of August 1993, so I do not understand your evidence where it alludes to later. Around the 15th of August 1993, was your unit located at Small Farm? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE I discovered that I had problems in Small Farm. CHAIRPERSON When did you move to the Zone 12 unit, that is the question? MR RADEBE That is in 1993. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Was it before this incident occurred, or after the occurrence of this incident. MR RADEBE After this incident. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you Madam Chair. Now, after Nkosana had given you the 7.22 pistol you said you went to shoot Hapile. Briefly explain to this Committee why did you have to, you have already said so, but outline in detail why did you have to shoot her? MR RADEBE The reason for me to shoot at her was the information we already had before, that together with Elsie Mokoena and others who were not involved in this particular case, we had that information that they were involved with murders which happened in Sebokeng. That is why it was necessary for me to shoot her, because they would take the information from the township and take it to Kwa Madala Hostel, because those people who were residents of Kwa Madala Hostel, some of them did not even know Sebokeng. They knew everything about Sebokeng from the people who were staying in the township. Some of them were Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena. MS MOLOISANE You say you had this information about them. From where did you get that information? MR RADEBE I did not know that very well about these particular two people. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Answer the question Mr Radebe. Where did you get the information? MR RADEBE From comrade Mabusa. CHAIRPERSON Who is he? MR RADEBE He was a member of the underground structure of MK. CHAIRPERSON Where did he stay? MR RADEBE Zone 12. CHAIRPERSON And when did he tell you this information? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON You must be in a position to tell. Was that in 1993 or was it a year before 1993? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON When you were told by comrade Mabusa about the activities of the ladies in question, where were you staying? MR RADEBE In Small Farm. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE I was his second in charge. That is why he had to inform me about these issues. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE In regard to the self defence unit structures, because at times when we observed things going on the community in regard to the murder or the killings of people, people would be deployed in that particular area, usually I would assist him in deploying people. We would know that certain people are in particular areas and other in particular areas, then we will be able to deploy them. That is why I am saying I was his second in charge. CHAIRPERSON Was he a commander of an SDU as a structure? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And which unit? MR RADEBE Zone 12 unit. CHAIRPERSON How many members did that unit comprise? MR RADEBE Many members. CHAIRPERSON Yes, give an estimate. We are trying to establish the command structure. MR RADEBE Approximately eighty to a hundred members, because every member of the youth would volunteer to be a member of the self defence unit. CHAIRPERSON What year was this when he was the commander of the Zone 12 unit? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON And was Mr Mkhwanazi as well as Mr Ntjolo, members of that particular unit? MR RADEBE Yes they were members of the self defence unit in Zone 12. CHAIRPERSON To which you were second in charge? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE MR RADEBE Yes. Would still kill her. MS MOLOISANE Why? MR RADEBE Because of the evil work which was done by Inkatha within Sebokeng. Because people were worried about the activities of Inkatha at all times. Which they did within Sebokeng community. MS MOLOISANE Just explain it further. If, what do you mean by saying because of the activities of Inkatha? I mean you would still have killed her because of the activities of Inkatha. What do you mean? Explain it further. MR RADEBE Some of the comrades who were members of various units were killed by Inkatha. That is why when I saw Inkatha I saw an enemy. MS MOLOISANE Now, why did you kill Hapile Ndumo on that particular day, the 15th of August 1993? MR RADEBE I killed her because of playing a role in the killings of Vaal triangle communities. That is the reason why I shot her, and to spy on our comrades. Because at any time I would be eliminated by Inkatha, or my colleague who was a member of my unit, or an innocent member of the community. That is why I killed her. MS MOLOISANE Now why did you shoot Elsie Mokoena? MR RADEBE I killed, I shot at her because of playing a role in the killings of Vaal triangle community members, and to spy on our comrades. Because innocent people were killed, like small children sleeping at night. Those things made us feel bad. CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane, I have not been able to understand with better clarity in respect of which acts your client seeks amnesty. With regard to this particular incident. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair I am here concerned with the event of the 15th of August. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOLOISANE That is the murder of Hapile Ndumo, CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOLOISANE The assault of Elsie Mokoena, CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOLOISANE and the illegal possession of arms and ammunition. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE As it pleases this Committee. Madam Chair, if, we are actually applying for amnesty for the attempted murder, the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the attempted murder in respect of which he was convicted for assault. CHAIRPERSON These are different offences. He is talking of the offence for which he was convicted, which is assault GBH. I understand that he would apply for that, but does he want to go further and say it was his intention to kill Ms Mokoena, and not just to assault her? MS MOLOISANE May I get instructions thereon? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOLOISANE When you shot Elsie Mokoena what was your intention? Was your intention to kill her, or just to assault her? MR RADEBE My intention was to kill her. CHAIRPERSON At the time when you shot her, immediately after they had been taken out of the tavern, your intention was to kill her? When you fired the shot, it was not to scare her? MR RADEBE My intention was to kill her. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I see you find this amusing. It is not amusing to us Mr Radebe. I see you are smiling as if there is something amusing. We do not find this process to be amusing. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE Now, I want you to clarify this point. When you shot at the two girls, that is Hapile Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena and later on at Hapile Ndumo, was this because you were, was it a revenge killing, let me put it that way, or were you doing it because of a particular reason? MR RADEBE Mainly it was protection. To protect myself. Because the information received in Boipatong, young people would knock, and when you opened the door people would start shooting, that is how we had to shoot them. And again because of their spying activity, because comrades were arrested or detained by the police, that is how we had to protect ourselves. MS MOLOISANE Thank you. Now, in your affidavit, when you applied for amnesty in respect of this event, on page 149 thereof, paragraph 14, you told, 149 of the bundle, paragraph 14 thereof. You said "...we then took Hapile with us at a distance of about plus minus four hundred metres. I shot Hapile with two bullets, shots, and Fani also shot her with two bullets." This is not your evidence now. I want you to clarify this point to the Committee. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON You are basically saying you lied before Justice Goldblatt when you said Mr Mkhwanazi had shot at the deceased? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I cannot understand however why you lied when you applied for amnesty to this Committee, knowing fully well that the requirement for a successful application is the truth. Why did you do that? I can understand you lying during the criminal trial. I want you tell me why you lied when you applied for amnesty here. MR RADEBE On the statement which I made before the TRC investigator, that is Judge Mdluzi, I did not know that TRC is, does not align itself with what is happening at Court, because I thought that I would say exactly what I said in the Supreme Court when I came before this Committee, because a certain woman who came to me, that is Sissy Rampepe explained to us that as we have already applied we would get legal representative who would inform us about the procedure of the TRC. That did not happen, that I should know my legal representative in time before I came before this Committee. That they want only relevant facts in regard to the incident, not what happened in Court. That is when Ms Moloisane on the 7th and then on the 8th we were to appear here, that we should only tell what happened on that particular day only. That is why I tell the truth today of what happened on that, the particular day of the incident. MR LAX Mr Radebe, when you applied for amnesty, did you understand that you had to tell the Commission the truth? MR RADEBE ...(not translated) MR LAX Just yes or no, simple answer. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON That is not the question that is being put to you. When you applied, did you know that you had to disclose the truth about what had happened? That is the question being put to you. MR RADEBE I did not know. CHAIRPERSON Were you not visited by several members of the Truth Commission, who explained to you the process, and advised you that you further had the right to be legally represented? Were you also not visited in prison by members of the community who understood the Act and were placed in places like Vereeniging and explained to you the requirements of the Act? I am now talking about the prison wherein you were. MR RADEBE That did not happen to me, that a particular person would come to me and visit me and inform me about the requirements of the Act. That what happened in Court has nothing to do with the TRC. What I knew was that a legal representative would come and inform me what would happen, what should happen in regard to my application for amnesty. I only knew my advocate on the 7th, and then on the 8th I came before this Commission. MR LAX What does TRC stand for Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE That is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX MR RADEBE MR LAX Was it the truth? MR RADEBE MR LAX MR RADEBE As from this morning I only told the truth of what happened on the particular day. MR LAX You knew very well that what you said in this affidavit was not the truth. MR RADEBE ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON May I find out why you applied, Mr Radebe? When you completed your application on the 16th of April 1996, what were you applying for? MR RADEBE I was applying for the murder of Maletsatsi Marumo, the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the attempted murder of, and the illegal possession of arms and ammunition. CHAIRPERSON And what did you understand the application to be seeking to do? MR RADEBE It was in regard to the incidents which I was convicted for and that is why I included those case. CHAIRPERSON But what do you understand those incidents to ...(intervention) MR RADEBE ...(not translated) ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Because I was a member of the ANC and they were Inkatha members and they were responsible for the killings and we were protecting the community. CHAIRPERSON Did you understand that you had to apply only if the offences for which you sought amnesty were politically related? Did you understand that when you completed this application form? MR RADEBE Yes, I was explained in that way. CHAIRPERSON Who explained that to you? MR RADEBE Mr Mfolo who is the prison warder. CHAIRPERSON And why then would you believe that you were committed to the lie which you had given during your criminal trial, and the lie which you gave when you were a State witness against your fellow comrades during your criminal trial, when it was explained to you the offences for which you could succeed for amnesty were politically related? MR RADEBE May you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON Why did you believe that you were committed to the lie which you had given during your own criminal trial, and the lie which you gave whilst you were a State witness in a criminal trial of your fellow comrades, when it was explained to you that the requirement for amnesty was that the offences for which you sought such amnesty had to be politically related? MR RADEBE I said so in Court, because I thought that they testified against me, and even I informed the Court that we did all these things in the protection of the community. That is why I thought they were politically inclined, because we were protecting the community against those who were attacking them. CHAIRPERSON You still have not responded to my question. I will ask the question again for the third time. Why did you believe that you still had to be committed to the lies you had told initially during your own criminal trial and subsequently when you gave evidence against your comrades during their criminal trial, when it had been explained to you by the warder that the offences for which you could apply for amnesty had to be politically related? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE I understand it from the beginning, that is why should I commit myself to the lie which I said in Court in my case and then against my comrades, but at the end of that question I did not understand. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON My simple question ...(intervention) INTERPRETER Sorry Chairperson we have a disturbance. CHAIRPERSON What disturbance do you have, is it from the passing cars? INTERPRETER No from somebody talking. CHAIRPERSON Oh. May I proceed? INTERPRETER Just a moment. We may continue. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you had already during your criminal trial indeed pointed that out that the offences were committed within this context of the IFP and ANC fight, and that the reason why you were there as SDU members, you were there to protect the community. MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now my question is in relation to the lie you committed yourself to during the various stages of you giving evidence. Initially during your own criminal trial and subsequently when you were a State witness, in the matter of Neti, Mkhwanazi and Ntjulo, in which you lied about the details relating to how the offences were committed. MR RADEBE Yes, I do understand. CHAIRPERSON Now why did you feel that you still were committed to the lies that you had given during the criminal proceedings, when you were applying for amnesty before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? MR RADEBE My reason is only one. My reason is only one. I would not make a false statement which I made in Court if I knew before that I should not associate myself with what happened in Court, I should only associate myself with the relevant facts of what happened during that incident, that I shot twice and Mkhwanazi shot twice. If I knew that I was supposed to say what I know has happened on that particular day. That the TRC does not associate itself with what happened in Court, I would only tell what I knew has happened when I come to apply for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Why did you feel that the TRC had to have any regard to what had been said by you during your criminal trial? Did someone specifically say that to you? MR RADEBE No-one told me that. CHAIRPERSON So why did you hold that belief? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was it before you completed your application form? MR RADEBE It was after I filled in this form. CHAIRPERSON Did you apprize them of your understanding of what the process was all about? MR RADEBE What I wanted to know from them is when am I going to appear, then they told me that I must wait for a reply or a notice from the TRC office in Cape Town, that when would my application be before this Commission, that is then I will be assisted with the legal services of what is going to happen at the TRC. MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes they did. MR LAX And did they explain the process of investigation and of getting further particulars from you and replying to letters and so on? MR RADEBE May you please repeat that. MR LAX Did they explain the whole investigative process to you, that it could take time, that the investigators would need to get more information, that they would come and ask you questions, they might write you letters, etc? MR RADEBE Yes they told me that there would be people investigate, that they would go to the place of the incident and they would come to me and try to find out about further particulars. MR LAX MR RADEBE MR LAX MR RADEBE I told them what I said I said in Court. MR LAX You misled them about the facts that really happened? MR RADEBE Yes the truth is what happened there. MR LAX When they wrote you letters and you replied to those letters, do you remember you wrote a letter to the Commission? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Was that not the truth? MR RADEBE I wrote many letters. But I believe that the contents of all those letters is the truth. MR LAX Well why were you telling the truth? I thought you were going to stick to a lie? MR RADEBE MR LAX You see let me show you page 157. The Commission asked you about where your orders came from, MR RADEBE I do see. MR LAX And there you said MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX MR RADEBE Will you please repeat. MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON That is not the question that was put by Mr Lax to you. MR RADEBE What is the question? CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you disclosed them because you knew that the Commission was dealing with the truth. MR RADEBE I read the letter from the TRC saying, asking me questions whether who gave me orders, and then I was not prepared, but because you are requesting me to disclose those names, here are the names. CHAIRPERSON You did not mislead the Commission by giving them wrong names. Is that not so? MR RADEBE Yes, I did not lie. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON When questions were put to you by way of a request for further particulars, by the Committee, you did not disclose untruths. You did not give wrong names to the Committee. You stated the names of Paulos Kennel Malakwane, Stanley and Mabusa Mhlongo, as having been persons who had given you orders to commit the offences for which you are now seeking amnesty. You spoke the truth. MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why did you not lie to the Committee when they were asking you for the names of people who had ordered you to commit those offences? MR RADEBE I saw that there was no need because the Committee was looking for the identity. CHAIRPERSON You saw no need to lie because you recognised that there was no need to lie to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee? Is it not so? MR RADEBE It was not my intention to lie to the investigator of the TRC. It was not my intention to lie. What I lied about was that I wanted to say what I said in Court, because I did not foresee what I said in Court, it is not necessary for me to say it. I did not know that I had to say exactly what happened on that particular day, and that must be the truth. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHN RADEBE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane, you may proceed with the evidence in chief of Mr Radebe. EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE (Cont) As it please you Madam Chair and Committee Members. Now Mr Mkhwanazi, Abraham Mkhwanazi, the previous applicant, who was also your co-accused in the High Court in Johannesburg, mentioned ...(intervention) MR LAX MS MOLOISANE He was a co-accused and after ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, just press your button. MS MOLOISANE Initially he was a co-accused and the trials were separated because Radebe pleaded guilty and that is the reason why he had to be used as a State witness against Mkhwanazi and others. MR LAX MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you. Now on page 180 of the application for amnesty by Mr Abraham Mkhwanazi, at paragraph 11(b), he stated that he got orders from you, John Radebe. Can you elaborate on this? MR RADEBE I was his senior. MS MOLOISANE What kind of orders did you give him? MR RADEBE On that day we did not know who we would meet, but I instructed him that in any operation which he should take part. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE The order which I gave him was, is that he should chase Hapile Ndumo after he ran into the tavern. MS MOLOISANE And Mr Abraham Mkhwanazi again mentioned one person by the name of Bonga Khumalo. Do you know this person? MR RADEBE Yes I do. MS MOLOISANE Who is he? MR RADEBE He was a general commander of all units in Zone 12. Of all units in Zone 12 he was a general commander. MS MOLOISANE When you say all units are you referring to the self defence units? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose Ms Moloisane? You say he was a general commander of all units in Zone 12. Are you suggesting that there was more than one unit in Zone 12? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And to be precise, how many units operated in Zone 12? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Now your response does not suggest to me that you have understood my question. Do you understand that? MR RADEBE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON I am going to put my question to you again. How many units operated in Zone 12? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON And you were a member of one of the units that operated in Zone 12? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON In your unit, who was the commander? MR RADEBE Mabusa Mhlongo. CHAIRPERSON And it was known by all members within your unit that you took, as a member of that particular unit, instructions from Mabusa Mhlongo, as your commander? Was it known to each and every member in your unit that Mr Mhlongo was your commander and you took instructions from Mr Mhlongo? MR RADEBE Yes, all the members of the unit knew that we take instructions from Mr Mhlongo. CHAIRPERSON Whilst we are on this point, whilst we try and ascertain the structure of command, and the structure of your unit, which is important for us to do, can we find out from you who were members in your particular unit? Can you enumerate your members in your unit? MR RADEBE ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER I was still asking him to come closer to the mike. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON And how many others? MR RADEBE Do you mean in my particular unit? CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Approximately we were 18 to 20 members. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Mabusa Mhlongo were the commander and you assisted him? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct, I was his assistant. CHAIRPERSON When did you become a member of this particular unit? MR RADEBE In 1993. CHAIRPERSON Which month in 1993 did you become a member of this particular unit? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON How long had you been a member of this unit when the Ndumo incident occurred? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. That will assist us in estimating how long you had been with the unit prior to the commission of the offence in which Ms Ndumo was killed. You may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE As it please you Madam Chair. Now, how old were you at the time Mr Radebe, in 1993 on the 15th of August? MR RADEBE MS MOLOISANE When were you born? MR RADEBE On the 23 of February 1977. MS MOLOISANE Is there anything that you would like to say to the families of the victims right now? MR RADEBE MS MOLOISANE MR RADEBE MS MOLOISANE MR RADEBE Yes. MS MOLOISANE Do you know if he was a member of any political organisation? MR RADEBE He was a member of the ANC. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair, Committee Members. NO FURTHER QUESIONS BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Moloisane. Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions to put to Mr Radebe? MS THABETHE Yes Madam Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed to do so. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you. Mr Radebe, you say you instructed that Elsie and Hapile be called outside. What was your intention of calling them outside the tavern? MR RADEBE My intention was to take them to the office. MS THABETHE Why did you want to take them to the office? MR RADEBE On the side, on the other side of the office, usually we would not have, you will not find people there. That is where I was intending to shoot them. MS THABETHE So are you saying you were taking them to the office to shoot them? Is that what you are saying? MR RADEBE I was going to interrogate them, so that they would inform me about their role in the killings of our people, as to whether who are they with and where they stay, they stay with whom, then after that we will shoot them. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE The reason is that, for us not to go to the office, on the way I discovered that we did not have ammunition, and therefore if a mistake may happen we would not, if ...(indistinct) happen that the police would find us therefore we would be taken by the police and we would not find them again. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE It just to aid in asking them questions, but there was nothing, there was no information which we wanted from them. It was just to verify some of the information we had, we have, so that may be of benefit to us, but the reason for us to take them there was to kill them. CHAIRPERSON The question is why did you not proceed to take them to Zone 12, to the ANC offices, as you had originally intended? Why did you abandon your intentions? MR RADEBE We thought that maybe we would meet the police and then the police would find us and they would run away and the police would take them. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. When actually did you change your mind that you are no longer going to take them to the office now, you are going to kill them? MR RADEBE When we took the direction towards Samuel Neti, because that is the direction towards Zone 12. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE And then you came back and Hapile had escaped. MR LAX You mean Elsie. MS THABETHE Sorry, yes Elsie had escaped. Thank you. MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE MS THABETHE MR RADEBE That is where I would kill her. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE That was before Hapile was killed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And his affidavit stands in stark contrast to his viva voce evidence in respect of that particular aspect of what you are trying to address. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Try and get him to respond why you have two versions in respect of that particular aspect. Refer him to the relevant page and paragraph and put to him his viva voce evidence and find out his explanation to the inconsistency. MS THABETHE Mr Radebe, can you explain why you had said initially that Mr Sipapo gave you ammunition, and you already had guns, and then later on in your evidence you say you were given guns and ammunition by your fellow comrade after you had taken Hapile to where you were going to kill her. Can you explain that contradiction to the Committee. MR RADEBE In regard to Mr Sipapo that we received ammunition, it is the evidence I gave in Court, which is a lie again that I shot and Abraham shot. The gun which we used on that particular day, that is a gun I took from comrade Nkosana. That is the gun I used which is from Nkosana Tshabalala. MS THABETHE MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MS THABETHE MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE What do you mean? Who is the committee in this instance? Who in the committee wanted them? MR LAX MS THABETHE Community, community. MR RADEBE MS THABETHE MR RADEBE Yes, they were satisfied. The community was satisfied. MS THABETHE Now can you explain to the Committee Members, if the community was satisfied and you had the approval of the community, why then, after you had committed this act, did you see a need to get away from the community? MR RADEBE MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Except that the police were not satisfied. Is that not clear Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Yes Madam Chair, but he had the support of the community in which he lived in. CHAIRPERSON Does having a support of the local prevent the police from investigating and arresting a person, simply because he has the support of the community? MS THABETHE MR LAX Of course he was, that was the whole issue. He was worried about informers. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Was it common cause that if SDU members had killed somebody they would run away from that area and not continue to do such activities? CHAIRPERSON Was it common for SDU members to run away from their local communities after committing such deeds as you had committed? MR RADEBE I would say they were not running away from the community but they were running away from the police, because I would see the person in the absence of the police. In the evening vanderBijl Park murder and robbery squad would know the identity of the person responsible for that murder, and it was difficult to think, or to suspect, that a certain person is responsible for informing. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And seek refuge in different areas from where the crime had been committed? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Radebe, with regard to the shooting of Elsie on the cheek, you said you had an intention to kill her when you shot her. Is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE And then she ran away. She went to a 2-roomed house where you requested the people of that house to take her out of the house. Is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE That is correct MS THABETHE MR RADEBE MS THABETHE MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE I did not have ammunition. MS THABETHE Where do you know Hapile and Elsie from since in your evidence you had said that you worked for the Small Farm unit and not for the unit in the township? CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE No that was not the evidence Madam Chair. The evidence I remember you asking him, when did he become a member of the unit after Hapile was killed, he said yes, after Hapile was killed. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE MR RADEBE There was no mistake. I became a member of the Zone 12 self defence unit two to three months before the incident, and I did not know them then. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE May you please repeat your question. MR LAX MR LAX Just answer me yes or no. Do you understand that there is a contradiction there? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Let me try to explain. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may do so. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON There is no translation, Mr translator, through our headphones. INTERPRETER I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON Are you able to translate to us so far? Will you need Mr Radebe to repeat? INTERPRETER Yes I request so. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe when you were giving your evidence in Sesotho the interpreter was unable to pick up what you said. Will you please just repeat yourself so that what you said earlier on can be translated to us in English. CHAIRPERSON ...(not translated to English) INTERPRETER May you please try to repeat your question because we are not able to hear in English because it was not translated. MR RADEBE MR RADEBE My answer is that in, within the SDU unit in Small Farm I was not satisfied the way they were operating because I was prepared to patrol day and night but at times you would find that there was a car at a particular post and some people were shot and they would not give you the full account of the incident. Because I observed that the community would not have trust in us because we would say people were shot and the car has left the scene without being noticed. That is why I joined comrade Mabusa and others because they were committed to their work. MS THABETHE So are you saying whilst you were still in Small Farm, you were working for the Small Farm community as an SDU there? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE That is true I would work in a different unit. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE Yes, that is my testimony. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And not because you could work, you could be a member of a particular sub-unit and still operate in the activities of other sub-units in your area. Do you understand my difficulty? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON My difficulty emanates from understanding your evidence. Is it your evidence that you could have been a member of the Small Farm unit and still participate in operations and or activities of another unit? For instance the Zone 12 unit. Is that your evidence? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE At that time it was important to me. I thought it would be better if I would be part of the Zone 12 unit. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE My evidence is that we were helping each other as various units. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Your evidence has always been that you were working, you, were a member of a particular unit. You went on to explain to this Committee the membership within your sub-unit. You went on to name different persons who belonged to your sub-unit. Do you recall when you enumerated members of your sub-unit in Zone 12? You were specific Mr Radebe. MR RADEBE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON How can you then say you have not been given an opportunity to explain that you belonged to a number of units? How could you proceed to explain the membership and the structure of your unit, and the chain of command within your sub-unit, if you did not understand your evidence to be addressing that particular problem? MR RADEBE May you please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON I am telling you that we have not understood your evidence to be to the effect that you were acting within different units at any given time. We understood your evidence to be saying you belonged to a particular unit at any given moment. You went on to explain when you were a member of the Small Farm, went on to explain why you left Small Farm. Your evidence in chief only referred to the fact that there were problems, without specifying the nature of the problem that you had in Small Farm. And then you said you joined the Zone 12 unit. MR RADEBE Yes I said so. CHAIRPERSON Now how can you then say you did not understand the questions that were asked of you? MR RADEBE I understood the questions, but they were not in regard to my movement or a movement of any SDU member in relation to various units. But immediately we know that there is a particular incident, all of us would go and attend that situation. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON To do what, if you went there? If you did not go in to do something, what would you be going there to do? MR RADEBE For example, the Inkatha IFP hit squad they would use the Ford, the Ford cars. If we can meet a particular car which may be identified as the one used by the IFP we would attack it. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe you may proceed. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Just a clarification Mr Radebe before I move to the next aspect. I just want to find out. You said you were a senior commander to Mr Mkhwanazi. Was this now before or after you had changed from Small Farm unit to Zone 12 unit? Was it before or after you had changed? MR RADEBE When I arrived and joined the SDU in Zone 12 I became his senior. When I was in Small Farm I would not give him commands. MS THABETHE MR RADEBE ADV BOSMAN Ms Thabethe can I just clear up something here. It is not clear to me what the position was in regard to seniority. What was your rank in Small Farm? Where were you in seniority, in the Small Farm unit? MR RADEBE I was just an ordinary member of the unit. ADV BOSMAN So how did it come about that you got promoted in the Zone 12 unit? MR RADEBE A few weeks before I left Small Farm, that is when I received my underground military training in Sasolburg. ADV BOSMAN Are you then saying that you were promoted in Zone 12 because you had in the meantime undergone training as underground? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MR LAX MR RADEBE MR LAX MR RADEBE Whilst I was in Small Farm I was attending some orientation courses in Sasolburg about the real training. So that I would understand first before I undergo the real training. The after I went to Sasol to do the real underground training. MR LAX Well your evidence now has just been that you got your underground training while you were at Small Farms. MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Well please explain to us, which version do you now want us to accept as your evidence? Because we now have three different versions. Firstly you went for your underground training after you left Zone 12 and went to Sasolburg. Secondly we have you went for your underground training when you were at Small Farms. And now thirdly in an attempt to explain yourself, you went for a sort of pre-training, and initiation training to prepare you for your underground training later. MR RADEBE When I said I received training whilst I was in Small Farm, it was an orientation kind of training. Then after that I had to go for training as to whether am I fit enough so that I will be able to confront any particular incident. That is where I went to Sasol that I passed that training. MR LAX ADV BOSMAN Ms Thabethe, just one question to follow on here. Can I just repeat my question again? If you had not undergone underground training but were just sort of orientated, on what grounds did you get promotion so soon in the Zone 12 unit? MR RADEBE ADV BOSMAN MR RADEBE Maybe they were satisfied with my progress. Maybe because of the tasks which I performed before. I would not know the criteria they used in my promotion. I was informed that in the absence of Mabusa I would be in charge, that is why ADV BOSMAN Who informed you? Carry on. MR RADEBE Sorry. That is Mabusa and a certain person in Sasol. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Does it matter Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Thank you Madam. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MS THABETHE How did you shoot her, Ms Hapile Ndumo? MR LAX The question is where did you shoot her on her body? When you say how then you go into all sorts of other areas Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Member of the Committee. Where in her body did you shoot her? MR RADEBE I would say on the chest. MS THABETHE How many times? MR RADEBE MS THABETHE MR LAX MS THABETHE Thank you Member of the Committee. MR RADEBE MS THABETHE So you lied in your evidence in Court when you said you saw Mr Neti doing it and that you also saw him tearing off her clothes? MR RADEBE Yes, I lied. MS THABETHE In your evidence you said you shot Elsie and Hapile because you wanted to achieve a political objective against IFP. My question is how was shooting Elsie and Hapile going to achieve that political objective? Can you briefly explain? MR RADEBE The community would be free. MS THABETHE From what? MR RADEBE They would be freed from their murderers and their spies. MS THABETHE In your evidence you said Mabusa told you more about Elsie and Hapile. Exactly what did he tell you? MR RADEBE He told me that they were Inkatha members and they are wanted, together with others. MS THABETHE Did he tell you about a Johannes Msimbe, or is it the first time you hear about him now? MR RADEBE MS THABETHE MR RADEBE MS THABETHE MR RADEBE He may take it that way because the police were helping Inkatha. CHAIRPERSON Did you know at that stage that she was having a relationship with a policeman? MR RADEBE No, I did not know. MS THABETHE My next question is, if Mabusa Mhlongo had not told you that Elsie and Hapile were IFP, would you have killed them, or would you have shot them? MR RADEBE No, I would not. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. Ms Moloisane do you have any re-examination? MS MOLOISANE No questions in re-examination Madam Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Radebe. MR LAX MR LAX MR RADEBE No. MR LAX So when did this group of people then begin following you? MR RADEBE MR LAX MR RADEBE You said at the stokvel. MR LAX Where was the stokvel? MR RADEBE MR LAX You found him at the stokvel. MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Now, you, who had gone to find him, yourself and Mkhwanazi? MR RADEBE It was, I entered inside, but I left them outside. MR LAX Who is them? MR RADEBE Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena. MR LAX Yes. MR RADEBE I left Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena MR LAX So it was just the three of you? MR RADEBE ... and Abraham Mkhwanazi. I left the three of them outside when I entered there, then I came back with Kraai. MR LAX Where was Ntjolo? MR RADEBE Who? MR LAX Ntjolo. MR RADEBE We were together with him. MR LAX So? All of you went to the stokvel? MR RADEBE Yes, all of us went to the stokvel, I was the one who entered inside. MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX What did you do there? MR RADEBE We did not do anything we just left them there and then we left. MR LAX MR RADEBE We left them on the street. MR LAX At that stage when you left them there was no crowd there yet? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX You then proceeded to Hollywood? MS THABETHE Yes. MR LAX Why did you go to Hollywood? MR RADEBE We were looking for ammunition. MR LAX Is that the only reason you went to Hollywood? GAP BETWEEN TAPES MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Each consisting, well you said yours consisted of between 18 and 20 members. Did the others consist of 18 to 20 members? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Well you said that in total in the whole of Sebokeng there were between 80 and 100 SDU members, and that Bonga Khumalo was the general overall commander of them. Is that right? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX MR RADEBE MR LAX MR RADEBE I said in my unit we were approximately 18 to 20 members. I did not say each unit in Zone 12. MR LAX MR RADEBE I would not be able to explain that. MR LAX MR RADEBE MR LAX And if I understand you correctly they were doing this by passing information to the hostel residents, is that right? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Is it not true that there were many township people who fled the township and went and lived in the hostels? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX MR RADEBE I would not know why. MR LAX You know about Getisi and his gang and all his people. MR RADEBE Yes I do. MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes they did. MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes, they were staying in the township before. MR LAX Now you said something very interesting later on in your evidence. Towards the very end of your evidence you spoke about these ladies also being involved in giving information to the police. MR RADEBE MR RADEBE The comrades were discussing about that generally because if, if you were a member of Inkatha you aligned yourself with the police. Because whatever the comrades were doing it would be reported to the police. MR LAX You had no personal knowledge of that, did you? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX It was just a general rumour. MR RADEBE Yes, I agree with you. MR LAX MR RADEBE MR LAX MR RADEBE The information we received from the comrades from Boipatong is that young people would knock at the doors. When the doors are opened the people, the occupants of those houses, would be shot. MR LAX MR RADEBE Yes, that was a general information we received. MR LAX MR RADEBE He told me after I shot Hapile Ndumo. MR LAX Well then why did you not say so now before I put it to you? MR RADEBE I thought the Committee would ask me in the process. MR LAX MR RADEBE I made a mistake because that was the issue I knew of this time. MR LAX So there were a whole range of reasons why you killed them. One you thought they were Inkatha, right? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Two you thought they were spying on township people for Inkatha, correct? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Three you thought they were involved in the deaths of your members and other innocent people by Inkatha. MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Four, you thought they were spying on the police, spying for the police and therefore giving them information which led to the arrest and killing of your members. MR RADEBE You talked about spying late, earlier. MR LAX Well, there are two separate forms of spying. One is for the Inkatha people themselves, and one is for the police. There are two separate kinds of spying her. MR RADEBE We regarded the police and Inkatha as one thing. Because Inkatha was injuring people, they would use the Caspers together with the police having guards, therefore we saw them as one. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHN RADEBE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Questions were still being put to you by Mr Lax. He will continue to do so. Mr Lax. MR LAX Mr Radebe did you know these two women? MR RADEBE I did not. MR LAX MR RADEBE I did not know their whereabouts. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAX CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax. Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Radebe? ADV BOSMAN Thank you. Mr Radebe in your evidence you said that on the 15th of August 1993 when Letsolo and Mkhwanazi arrived, you accompanied them to Zone 7. Where were you when they arrived? MR RADEBE I was at Small Farms. ADV BOSMAN INTERPRETER I was at Small Farms. ADV BOSMAN Now is, Mr Mkhwanazi said different to what you are saying. He said that they sort of bumped into you and you insisted that they should accompany you. How do you explain this different version. MR RADEBE Yes, I did. ADV BOSMAN Now, what happened now, did you accompany them or did they accompany you? MR RADEBE They accompanied me to stop at the tavern. ADV BOSMAN What were you going to do at Zone 7? MR RADEBE They told me that they were going to visit other comrades, then I told them that I am going there. ADV BOSMAN And what did you intend doing there? I mean, you must have had something in mind when you accompanied them. MR RADEBE There was nothing specific which I was going to do. ADV BOSMAN How many guns did you have with you? CHAIRPERSON A questions was put to you, what you were going to do at Zone 7, what you were going to do at Zone 7, and you responded by saying Ntjulo and Mkhwanazi told you that they were going to see other comrades. MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, I said so. CHAIRPERSON As it has already been put to you, that is not the version of Mr Mkhwanazi. Mr Mkhwanazi says that you requested them to accompany you to Zone 7 because you had to collect your money from somebody who was owing you. What do you say to that version given by Mr Mkhwanazi? MR RADEBE The person who was supposed to give me money was the one we were going to at the tavern, not in Zone 7. The person was at the tavern not in Zone 7. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but the fact of the matter is that his version is that they accompanied you to the tavern because you had insisted that they should do so because you had to collect some funds from somebody who owed you. MR RADEBE I did not insist, I requested them. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Bosman, you may proceed. ADV BOSMAN At that time how many guns did you have with you? MR RADEBE Two guns. ADV BOSMAN Why were you carrying two guns? MR RADEBE 7.65 which is a Star had a problem with the firing pin. ADV BOSMAN Who issued these guns to you? MR RADEBE I got them from one supporter of the ANC. ADV BOSMAN And this rule that two of you had to go if you wanted to collect guns or ammunition, who had made that rule? MR RADEBE We formulated that rule together as members of the self defence unit. ADV BOSMAN But which unit formulated the rule? You were apparently the member of a few units. MR RADEBE It applied to all units. ADV BOSMAN But who formulated the rule? MR RADEBE We, the members of the self defence unit, made that rule. ADV BOSMAN Did each and every unit make such a rule? MR RADEBE In every unit nobody would do the way he likes, so we used one uniform rule. ADV BOSMAN Did all the units have this rule? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN Was there any rules in relation to guns, whether you were allowed to carry more than one gun? Could you have as many guns as you wished to? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN Yes, my question was a bit double. Could you have as many guns as you wished to have? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN I just find it strange that there is a rule in relation to the collection of ammunition and guns, but on the other hand you are allowed to have as many guns as you wish, that there were no rules in that regard. MR RADEBE ADV BOSMAN MR RADEBE There was nothing which Mkhwanazi would do without my instruction. ADV BOSMAN But did you not tell Mkhwanazi that you were going to question them? MR RADEBE No, I did not. ADV BOSMAN So is he giving us the wrong information? MR RADEBE I said that we were going to Zone 12 to our office, where we would ask them questions, then after shoot them. But our main objective was not to interrogate them on that day. ADV BOSMAN Mr Mkhwanazi knew that? MR RADEBE I would say yes. ADV BOSMAN Now why is he telling us a different version now? MR RADEBE ADV BOSMAN MR RADEBE I mentioned that we were taking them to the office to ask them questions, then thereafter shoot them. ADV BOSMAN Did you know that Mkhwanazi knew Hapile, that he lived near her? MR RADEBE Please repeat the question. ADV BOSMAN Do you know that Mkhwanazi knew the deceased, Hapile? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN So why did you ask her whether you should her? Why did you ask him whether you should shoot her? MR RADEBE I was asking not that whether I should shoot her or not. I was asking him in regard to the place where she should be shot, as to whether is it the right place for her to be shot. ADV BOSMAN Why did you ask him that question? MR RADEBE ...(not translated) ADV BOSMAN MR RADEBE Zone 8 is a quiet place. It was not infested with violence, that is why I would not just shoot, that is why I had to verify with our comrades as to whether should we take them further or should I shoot them at that place. ADV BOSMAN MR RADEBE In my unit there were people who were able to survey the place as to whether should we continue with the operation or not, so on that day I sought his advice as to whether is it the right place to execute the operation. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes I did. CHAIRPERSON Whether the ladies should be shot or not. Not about the place where they should be shot at, but about whether they should be shot at all. Do you understand the distinction between the two? MR RADEBE Yes I did. CHAIRPERSON Why did you ask him that? The question does not want you to address facts about the locality of where they were to be shot. They want you to explain why you asked that question about whether they should be shot at all? MR RADEBE It is because Abraham has knowledge in the surveillance because I would not make a decision on my own. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE The reason for me to ask as to whether should I shoot them there or somewhere else, it is not because I sought his instruction. CHAIRPERSON Did you or did you not say to Abraham, should I shoot at these ladies? Not about should I shoot at these ladies here. MR RADEBE I asked him as to whether should I shoot or not. CHAIRPERSON Yes, why did you have to ask him? You were the second in charge. You were the one who was given orders. Do you see the contradiction in terms? You are asking your subordinate about whether you as a commander should do something or not. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe you are taking us nowhere with the way in which you are responding to questions. You know the question that you asked Mr Mkhwanazi did not seek to establish whether the place was safe or not, that is quite clear. You asked the question, and you agree that you did ask that question. You surely cannot want to have us believe that you wanted to establish facts about the place, when your question clearly sought to seek his guidance about whether you can shoot or not. MR RADEBE I asked Abraham that way in regard to as to whether the place was conducive or not for that operation. I did not have a problem of shooting them there. CHAIRPERSON We do not comprehend your response. We, however, will not belabour the point. You may proceed Ms Bosman. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. You also said in your evidence that the whole community wanted them, the two, the girls. Is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes that is correct. ADV BOSMAN Now is Zone 8 part of the community? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN MR RADEBE ADV BOSMAN MR RADEBE ADV BOSMAN Did you hear me ask that question to Mr Mkhwanazi? MR RADEBE Yes, I heard. ADV BOSMAN CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe, you have listened to the evidence that was given by Mr Mkhwanazi with regard to when the community became aware of the activities of Ms Ndumo, who is now deceased, and Ms Mokoena, and how he himself became aware of their activities, and the period in which he became aware of their activities. MR RADEBE Yes, I heard. CHAIRPERSON Now his evidence differs with that given by you. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE When he said what? ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Your evidence was that Mr Mabusa told you about the activities of the ladies in question. It was not to the effect that he gave you the order to kill them. MR RADEBE Yes, I said s. CHAIRPERSON Now you first became aware of the, your evidence said you got the information about the activities of the ladies from comrade Mabusa, and that you heard this in 1992 or early 1993. That was your evidence. MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was Mkhwanazi telling us the truth when he said he had shared this information, with his unit to which you were also a member? MR RADEBE He was telling the truth. CHAIRPERSON Why then, did you only have to have this information from the lips of comrade Mabusa? MR RADEBE Because he is the commander. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE I trusted him. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why did you not believe his information but only believed the information and act upon it once it was told to you by comrade Mabusa? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Well I will leave that aspect there and take your answers for what they are worth. Is it your evidence that you were commanded by comrade Mabusa to kill the ladies in question? Is that your evidence? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And comrade Mabusa commanded you to execute these ladies in his capacity as a commander of your unit in Zone 12. Is that correct? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And may I ask when this command was issued by your commander, Mabusa? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON I was about to go, I was going to ask you about the nature of the command and you have now come to my assistance. The command was whenever you as members of the unit, you used the word plural, when we, when you as members of the unit saw the ladies in question you were to kill them. Was that the command? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And this command was given to you as a unit, not necessarily to you as Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE Yes it was issued to us as seniors of the unit, then it will depend on me, on myself, as to whether what will be the situation with whom am I among members of the unit. That would be the one who would help me to execute ...(gap between tapes) CHAIRPERSON The command was issued to you as seniors of the unit. How many seniors did your unit consist of? MR RADEBE We were four, senior members. CHAIRPERSON And what were the positions held by the three other seniors? MR RADEBE They were commanding other sub-units. CHAIRPERSON What sub-units are you alluding to? I thought you were talking about Zone 12 which already was a sub-unit of the entire SDU structure in Sebokeng. MR RADEBE In the sub-units within Zone 12. CHAIRPERSON So in Zone 12 you had your unit, which was further sub-divided. Is that what you are saying? MR RADEBE We had one unit. We executing operations as, and we were eight when we did some of the operations, but the people who are responsible for the operations are ourselves, the eight, but other were doing other, other works. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now, how is it that Mr Mkhwanazi, who was a member within your unit, your particular unit in Zone 12, can say that you were all being commanded in your unit by Bonga Khumalo, and you say you were commanded by comrade Mabusa Mhlongo? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON I understand your evidence. That was not his evidence. Did you understand my problem. Let me repeat. MR RADEBE Yes I did. CHAIRPERSON Now how, how does it come that Mr Mkhwanazi should speak about Bonga Khumalo as having been a commander of your unit, and you say he was an overall commander of all units in Sebokeng? MR RADEBE In Zone 12, not in Sebokeng. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhwanazi went a step further. He said you were second in charge to Mr Khumalo, which really crystallises the issue. See, if he had left it at Mr Bonga Khumalo having been a commander there would have been no problems with me, but he went further to say you were the second in charge to Mr Khumalo. Now this brought problems in my mind when you gave your evidence. If he believed that Bonga Khumalo was a commander by virtue of him being an overall commander in Zone 12, why should he go a step further and say you were second in command to him? MR RADEBE He was supposed to say so because on that day I, on that particular day I gave him orders in that operation. Therefore would say I am in second in command from Bonga because he did not understand the overall commander and the commander of a particular unit, but I was second in charge to Mr Mabusa. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhwanazi further gave testimony to the effect that so notorious were the activities of the ladies in question, that sometime in 1992 they were captured by one comrade Skosana and brought to the offices of the ANC, whereat the community administered lashes to show their disapproval of the community in the activities conducted by Ms Mokoena and the late Ndumo in spying for the IFP. Are you aware of that incident? MR RADEBE Yes I heard about it. CHAIRPERSON Were you in Zone 12 already when that incident took place? Were you part of the unit? MR RADEBE No, I was not yet in Zone 12. CHAIRPERSON And when you say you heard about it, were you aware of that incident before Ms Ndumo was killed? MR RADEBE Yes, I heard it from the comrades. CHAIRPERSON Now, did that incident not suggest to you that the community on whose behalf you were acting in protecting them against the IFP, did that incident not suggest that the community had condoned the ladies for their participation or association with the IFP? MR RADEBE They did not do anything to them because at that, for a long time they were not there. They were disciplined by being sjambokked, then from then they went back to the community as if they have been rehabilitated, but after some time they disappeared. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what were the facts which were at your disposal, and on which you then believed that they had not indeed become rehabilitated? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON You received information that they were still involved from who? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON From whom? MR RADEBE From some comrades. CHAIRPERSON Which comrades? Bearing in mind that you were unable to act on what Mr Mkhwanazi had told you, until it was, it came from the lips of your commander comrade Mabusa. MR RADEBE It was discussed generally in the offices. We would just discuss it in passing. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON And not because of what they had done subsequent to the punishment by the community? MR RADEBE I received information that they were doing these things before they were disciplined. Even after they had disciplined they returned to the community and after some time they disappeared. Then we received information again that they are still continuing with their association with IFP. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Now, the information that you obtained, you obtained from which sources? MR RADEBE I would tell a lie if I would say I received that information from a particular person. It was discussed under general. You would not know who is the source of that information. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE I hear the Chairperson saying that wide rumour continued and it did not stop, or it was not stopped. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE All I can tell this Committee is that I did not act because of wild rumours. I did this based on the information received from my comrades. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE It is true because I said I heard those rumours, but that would not be the reason for me to kill a person because it was rumoured in the township. There would be comrades who would chase the real facts, and be verified, and then it would be verified how they received that information. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE There was nothing which I would do without receiving orders. Comrade Mabusa came to me and told me that we have these two people who are doing this kind of work. Then I thought that comrade would not tell me something which was not there. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE May you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now when I asked you earlier on about when the command was issued to you by Mabusa, you gave me two answers. You said it could be a few months before the incident, then you corrected yourself, you said it could be a few weeks. In relation to the occurrence of this incident, which is the 15th of August 1993. In relation to that incident. MR RADEBE That is true. CHAIRPERSON In relation to that incident, how would you approximate the month in which you were given an order to execute these two women? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Were these not important orders? MR RADEBE Yes, they were important. CHAIRPERSON Had you been given such orders before? To execute women. MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Specifically women? MR RADEBE No, not women. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so why are you unable to remember an incident which must have left some mark? MR RADEBE At that time I was thirteen years old, and we did so many things at that time. We were thirteen years old if I was not mistaken. CHAIRPERSON Were you not almost seventeen years old? MR RADEBE MR LAX CHAIRPERSON Is that the reason that would make you forget when orders were given to you? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON But definitely you had not received any orders from your commander prior to this incident, to execute women who were suspected of being IFP collaborators. MR RADEBE I said I did. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON But in respect of this incident, your evidence is that you were given specific orders to execute two women. That is your evidence. The order was specific, in terms of who and the gender of the person you had to execute. MR RADEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you had never been specifically ordered to kill women. MR RADEBE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now you gave evidence about the specific orders you gave to Mr Mkhwanazi. Have I understood your evidence properly, if I encapsulate it in this fashion, that your order to Mr Mkhwanazi was to go after Ms Ndumo, after she had fled into the tavern? Was that the nature of the order you gave to Mr Mkhwanazi? MR RADEBE I produced a gun and then I said chase after her. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Did you understand that to be an order from you, and that your order was only in respect of him pursuing Ms Ndumo, and nothing further than that? MR RADEBE He would decide what he would do because as I said he must pursue her. He knew that that person should be killed, because he would ask me why should I pursue her. He did that because he knew what should happen, what was happening. It was not a new thing to him. CHAIRPERSON If you give evidence to the effect that you ordered Mr Mkhwanazi, and if you were asked to detail the kind of order you issued to Mr Mkhwanazi, just tell us briefly what would be your response. What order did you give to Mr Mkhwanazi? MR RADEBE Is that she, he should pursue this lady. I was in a certain mood, because there were other things which I said to him but in my mind I had a picture of this person running away, then I ordered Mkhwanazi to chase after him because I shot somebody run away then I give him the gun. CHAIRPERSON Did you know that the gun you were giving him had no ammunition? MR RADEBE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON What then was the purpose of giving him a gun which had no ammunition? MR RADEBE Because that person did not know that the gun did not have ammunition by seeing that gun he would stop. CHAIRPERSON So it was not your intention that Mr Mkhwanazi should kill Ms Ndumo? MR RADEBE It was my intention because that gun had no ammunition he would not kill her. CHAIRPERSON MR RADEBE Yes, it was my intention. CHAIRPERSON How can it be your intention to have somebody killed by someone when you give Mr Mkhwanazi a gun without any ammunition? How can you intend, how could you have intended for Ms Ndumo to have been killed by Mr Mkhwanazi? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON You did not tell Mr Mkhwanazi that the gun you had handed to him had no ammunition? MR RADEBE No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR RADEBE I knew that after I gave him that gun it is up to him to check the gun as to whether how many ammunition would be there. That is why he pointed the gun at her and they came together. CHAIRPERSON Why should it be up to a subordinate to check whether a weapon has any ammunition when it is given to him by a person who is in a senior position? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON How could he have known that? MR RADEBE Because immediately the gun is in his hand he must check the gun first at to whether is it in use, is it ready for use. CHAIRPERSON If Mr Mkhwanazi says that he believed that he was acting under orders, and therefore was justified in committing the offences in question, and your evidence is that the order was to pursue Ms Ndumo, and he did just that as you had ordered, he pursued Ms Ndumo, was able to bring Ms Ndumo back, you then continued to shoot Ms Ndumo. What order would you have given to Mr Mkhwanazi in those circumstances? MR RADEBE CHAIRPERSON Pursued him. Mr Mkhwanazi pursued Ms Ndumo, as you had ordered that he should do, brought her back, and then you continued to shoot her. Would I be correct that he had then complied with your order of pursuing her and of bringing her back to where you were, which was, according to your evidence, next to the gate at the tavern? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Moloisane, are you closing your case of Mr Radebe in respect of the Elsie Mokoena assault and the killing of Ms Hapile Ndumo? Do you wish to call further witnesses? MS MOLOISANE There are two other witnesses Madam Chair that we still would like to call. CHAIRPERSON In respect of this incident? MS MOLOISANE In respect of the incident of the 15th of August. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Yes you may do so. RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE Now Mr Radebe, as question was put to you that there were a whole range of reasons that led to, or that made you, to kill Hapile Ndumo and to attempt to kill Elsie Mokoena. MR RADEBE Yes. MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane may I just get clarity? You obviously are asking this question because you believe that there could have been translation problems. MS MOLOISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON That you are quite fluent in Sesotho. MS MOLOISANE That is correct Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON And you are sitting next to your client and can actually hear him quite well as he gives his evidence in Sesotho, and are able to listen to the translation which is in English. MS MOLOISANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You are also willing to just raise this issue without resorting to him having to give an explanation, if you feel that there was a problem with a translation in this regard, just draw our attention to that, and whether what your client has said was I thought or I know. MS MOLOISANE Actually what the applicant said was, I believed, the information that he received concerning the activities of the two girls. CHAIRPERSON May I also say whenever you pick up this peculiar situation where things have not been properly translated just bring it immediately to the attention of the Chair so that we can appropriately attend to that problem before we move on. MS MOLOISANE As it please you Madam Chair. Shall I continue to call another witness at this stage. I am through with, CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Should we adjourn? Mr Stanley Gqiba, what language do you speak? MR GQIBA ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA Zulu. INTERPRETER English MR LAX INTERPRETER Thank you very much for the correction. CHAIRPERSON Would you please stand Mr Gqiba. Are you prepared to take the oath? STANLEY GQIBA (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Now you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you Madam Chair and Committee Members. Mr Gqiba, where do you stay? MR GQIBA Zone 12 Extension. MS MOLOISANE Is that Sebokeng? MR GQIBA Yes. MS MOLOISANE Are you a member of any political organisation? MR GQIBA Yes, the ANC. MS MOLOISANE On the 15th of August 1993, to which political organisation were you aligned, or to which organisation did you belong? MR GQIBA I was a member of the ANC youth league. MS MOLOISANE Did you have any portfolio there, or not? MR GQIBA I had several portfolios from the treasurer to secretary, etc. CHAIRPERSON You mean in 1993? MS MOLOISANE That is correct Madam Chair. If you say etcetera, which other portfolios are you referring to? MR GQIBA We used to hold Annual General Meetings, so that a new structure had to be elected every 12 months. I was a treasurer in 1991 and secretary in 1992, and chairperson in 1993. MS MOLOISANE If I understand you correctly, on the 15th of August 1993 you were the chairperson of the youth league. Is that your evidence? MR GQIBA Yes, that is correct. MS MOLOISANE Do you know the applicants in this matter, Abraham Mkhwanazi, and John Radebe? MR GQIBA Yes, I know them. MS MOLOISANE Yes. Just explain to the Committee how you know them, and whether they occupied any, or whether they were any, whether they were members of your organisation or not, and if so what portfolios did they have. MR GQIBA Let me start off with Abraham Mkhwanazi. He is the one that I knew first. He was staying at Zone 12, we recruited them into the organisation. He was still young by then and could only qualify as a member of the so-called pioneer movements, who the members of which were under sixteen. We had set up their own structures to which we referred as the pioneer movement, and that is where we groomed the leadership of the ANC. Radebe I knew very late, and I got to know that he came from Small Farm. I knew him through other members of the organisation at Zone 12. MS MOLOISANE And did he, Radebe, belong to any specific structure in your organisation? MR GQIBA Yes, he was a member having been introduced to the organisation by other members of the youth league. I cannot remember whether he had a membership card or not, but I think he did because we wanted that everybody who was to be a member of the organisation had to have such a card. MS MOLOISANE Now, tell this Committee about the events of the 15th of August 1993. Did you see them on that particular day or not? MR GQIBA MR GQIBA Let me put it this way. Can you recall the events of the, that led to the killing of Hapile Ndumo and the attempted murder of Elsie Mokoena, during August 1993? MR GQIBA I cannot recall what happened prior to their murder, but I remember hearing that they had been killed. I only heard this the following day. MS MOLOISANE MR GQIBA Yes, but they did not tell me about the two girls. They told me about their, our enemies which they had already captured. I remember we were talking about that, but then I was at work, not at the office of the organisation. MS MOLOISANE Where did you work? MR GQIBA At the Hollywood Night Club. MS MOLOISANE Where were your offices? The offices of the ANC youth league, where were they? MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE What I want to know is was it in the same, was this office and the night club in the same building? MR GQIBA Yes, that is correct. MS MOLOISANE So on this particular day when they informed you that they had captured your enemies, how many were they? MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE So, is there any other thing that they asked or required from you, or wanted from you, apart from the report that they made to you concerning the capture. MR LAX MS MOLOISANE You earlier told this Committee that they told you that they had captured your enemies. Can you just elaborate on that. CHAIRPERSON If there is anything to elaborate upon. MS MOLOISANE Pardon Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON He can elaborate on that if he feels there is anything to elaborate on that. MS MOLOISANE I do agree Madam. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE It was his evidence that he did not know, they did not specify whether they had captured girls, but they told him that they had captured their enemies. CHAIRPERSON Does he feel he can add on further on what was said by Radebe and Mkhwanazi? MS MOLOISANE Can you add anything further onto that, or is that all that they told you concerning the said capture, their captives? MR GQIBA One other thing that they said was that they wanted ammunition, which I said I did not have. MS MOLOISANE Yes, proceed. MR GQIBA One other thing that I can still recall is that they told me that these are the people who have been sought for a very long time, they are informers, spying on people in the township, and they have been warned several times about things that they were doing, passing on information, wrong information to the police, etcetera. If I still remember very well, what I said to them, and this is what I used to say on a daily basis, that what we wanted, or what we liked as an organisation, was that a person or units who allege that people are informers have to be sure, bring forward evidence to that effect. That was our stance. MS MOLOISANE Now, did they disclose anything concerning their captives. I mean, the way you have just explained right now, you say they had to have evidence against the alleged spies. MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON I think what we are interested in getting from you Mr Gqiba, is whether you, in your capacity as the chairperson of the ANC in 1993, knew whether the persons concerned were alleged to be still continuing in their activities as previously rumoured before they were warned. MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON In this case, what information did not come to your attention? MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA I have no knowledge in that regard. They are the ones who are in a position to say because they were close to these people, especially Abraham Mkhwanazi. MR LAX MR GQIBA Would you please repeat the question. MR LAX MR GQIBA Yes, I did not know. Not even the time during which they were captured. I only knew the following day what their identities were. MR LAX Continue please. MS MOLOISANE Just before they left Hollywood Night Club is there any other thing that you told them as they were leaving, concerning the operation that they wanted to carry out? MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE Now Mr Radebe testified to the effect that you told them that they should do a clean job. Do you have any comment thereon? And that they should make sure that they are not traced. Do you recall saying that to them? MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE So that is your evidence? That you in fact, indeed, issued that statement? MR GQIBA Yes. MS MOLOISANE Do you, did they specify what operation precisely were they going to carry out, that is regarding their captives? MR GQIBA At that time we used to have a certain language. We used to refer to informers as Imidwembe. That is when it came to me as to who these people were. I learned that Imidwembe were captured, and I then knew that there were our enemies. These are people who are making our lives difficult. CHAIRPERSON The question put to you Mr Gqiba is a very simply and straightforward question. Did Mr Radebe or Mr Mkhwanazi specify to you what they intended to do to their captives? That is the question, and the response that you have now given to us does not address the question put to you. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair. MR GQIBA It was known ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA They did not give me any explanation. ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON I know that although your, although your microphone was not on, the translator was able to pick up what you were saying. There is something wrong with the lines because your microphone is on. MR GQIBA It was known that when they want ammunition obviously the captured were going to be killed. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA They did not tell me what they were going to do. CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE But by virtue of your position as chairperson and the language that you used that is ...(intervention) MR LAX CHAIRPERSON Kindly rephrase your question Ms Moloisane, so that it does not suggest to the witness what answer he should give. MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE That is correct, he says ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Are you not actually wanting him to speculate? MS MOLOISANE MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE Do you know a person by the name of Bonga Khumalo? MR GQIBA Yes, I know him. MS MOLOISANE What portfolio did he hold? MR GQIBA He was secretary or the political affairs within the organisation. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE I will do so. CHAIRPERSON by August 1993. MS MOLOISANE I will do so Madam Chair. During August 1993, what portfolio did Bonga Khumalo hold within the organisation itself, and within the SDU structures? MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE Now what was the stance of the ANC youth league in regard to people who were spying for the police and for the IFP? CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE As it pleases this ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE MR GQIBA Yes, I think I did see them again, but it was after a while. They disappeared. They fled. I cannot recall whether it was 1994 or not, but I did see them after a while. MS MOLOISANE But did you manage to discuss the events that led, I mean the offences that they had committed, that is the murder of Hapile and the attempted murder of Elsie? MR GQIBA Yes, I did discuss that with them. MS MOLOISANE What is it that you discussed with them? MR GQIBA In my discussion with them I wanted to know whether they were sure whether these people were informers or not, and they had to convince me that indeed these people were informers and they were guilty of all the offences that were levelled against them. They assured me that these people were informers, and they went as far as to say that they had witnesses, people who could testify to that effect. And usually in the township one could not have been singled out and be pursued for a very long time accused of being an informer, if that was not the case. If a person was singled out definitely there must have been something about that person. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE Now evidence was adduced to the effect that the two girls were at some stage prior to the 15th of August 1993 punished for their activities. Do you know anything about the punishment that was imposed on the two girls? MR GQIBA Yes I do recall that, but it was not at the office. We did not have the office yet. We were using a garage as a place in Zone 12. MS MOLOISANE Were you there, or were you not there? MR GQIBA I was present. CHAIRPERSON When did this take place? MR GQIBA MS MOLOISANE Now on, during that time, what were the specific charges that were levelled against the two girls? MR GQIBA That is when the killing of people started, and they were accused of the fact that they were seen in vehicles that were alleged to have been driving around shooting people in the township. These vehicles included vehicles driven by Getisi among others, and ...(indistinct) that they were trafficking with the police. It was not only two of them accused of this, there were others but I cannot remember them. There could have been 5 or 6 of them. CHAIRPERSON May we know as a matter of interest, what their response was when these charges were read to them? MR GQIBA They were revealing the names of people involved indicating that so and so came to fetch me and said we should go to such a place, and we would go there and meet people like Getisi. They revealed the names of people involved. CHAIRPERSON Did they admit to spying for the IFP? MR GQIBA Yes they did, because they went as far as to tell us that they had handed over certain names of comrades to the IFP and we already knew that our names were known to the IFP, the enemies. CHAIRPERSON And on what basis did you decide to impose the punishment that you ultimately meted out, which was a lashing? MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON Was there any basis on which you based the punishment you imposed? MR GQIBA Yes, we had a basis because some of their parents were present at the time of this discussion. They were ...(indistinct) down as we were discussing that they should be punished. Some of the parents came forward and gave us information to the effect that they had not seen their children from such a date, and the accused would then speak on their own, indicating who came to fetch whoever where they went thereafter. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE Do you know about the Boipatong massacre? MR GQIBA Yes, I know about that. MS MOLOISANE Can you recall whether this was, that is, the time when the punishment was ...(indistinct) on these two girls, was it before or after the Boipatong massacre? MR GQIBA What I can say is that we were now using the Hollywood office during the Boipatong massacre. I think it was before the Boipatong massacre, because at that time we were using the Hollywood office. MS MOLOISANE If you say you think, are you sure you were using that, or are you not hundred percent sure. MR GQIBA Let me say I am sure, because we started using the office in 1992, that is the Hollywood office. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe do you have any questions to put to Mr Gqiba. MS THABETHE Yes Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Please proceed to do so. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you. Mr Gqib. MR GQIBA MS THABETHE Yes. Where did you reside in Sebokeng, exactly where did you reside? MR GQIBA Zone 12. MS THABETHE Did you personally know Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena? MR GQIBA Yes, I now them MS THABETHE Where did you know them from? MR GQIBA I know them from Zone 12. MS THABETHE Did you know them to be IFP members? MR GQIBA MS THABETHE You say, between 1990 and 1991 the community called people, about six people you said, who were going to be questioned about their affiliation with the police. Is that correct? MR GQIBA Yes. MS THABETHE Was Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena one of those people who were called? MR GQIBA Yes. They were among those. MS THABETHE And my instructions, Mr Gqiba, are that Elsie had a boyfriend who was a policeman. It would be common cause that she would be seen in his vehicle. Did you know anything about this? Did you have such information? MR GQIBA Yes, I had that information. MS THABETHE MR GQIBA By then the people of Boipatong would have kill you instantaneously if one was seen in the company of police. Police were not permitted in the township. Their houses had already been burned and some of them had fled. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe I probably understand his evidence differently. He did not at any stage of his evidence say that the reason why Ms Mokoena and Ndumo were taken to the garage to answer accusations levelled against them, he never said those accusations were in relation to them having been seen in the vehicles driven by the police. His evidence is that they were accused of having been seen in vehicles driven by amongst others, Getisi, who is not a policeman, which vehicles were used by the likes of Getisi to shoot at people in Sebokeng. Getisi is not alleged to have been a policeman. MS THABETHE Madam Chair I am open to correction. I thought he had said Getisi and policemen. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Can I clarify it with him? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) you can clarify that aspect. MS THABETHE Mr Gqiba can you please clarify whether you said they were called to be questioned about them being seen in Getisi and in policeman vehicles. Did you actually say that? MR GQIBA MS THABETHE With regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena specifically, would you remember what charges were made against them.? MR GQIBA I cannot recall. MS THABETHE Earlier on you had said you were aware that Elsie Mokoena had a relationship with one policeman. Did you know this policeman? MR GQIBA I am saying I cannot recall what charges were placed on him at, on her at the time of the accusation and the meeting, but the one that was accused of going out with a police person is a friend. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA I think the whole lot of the police and Getisi were seen as one bunch of people. MR LAX MR GQIBA Yes, I did confirm that. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA The mistake that I made is that I confused the information about these people being seen in the company of Getisi and this one girl who was in love with a policeman. I answered that way, confusing the two as a result. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. I was asking you if you knew the policeman that Elsie Mokoena was in love with. MR GQIBA No, I did not. MS THABETHE MR GQIBA MR LAX Well perhaps if you tell him the name of the name he might know who you are talking about. MS THABETHE Mr Gqiba do you know Johannes Msime who was a policeman? MR GQIBA MS THABETHE Earlier on in your evidence you said that when Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi came to you at the, what is it, stokvel? MR LAX It was the Hollywood club. MS THABETHE Hollywood Club. Thank you. Thank you Member of the Committee. They did not tell you what they were going to do with whoever they had captured. Is that correct? Do you remember saying that? MR GQIBA Yes, I remember, they did not say that they were going to kill them. MS THABETHE MR GQIBA They had said that these people are informers, and it was known what was going to be done to informers. I already knew that they were going to be killed. MS THABETHE And then you also state that later on after the incident was committed, you met ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA I did not say it to them then, but I knew they knew this, that they had to be sure and verify the information. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON You are assuming sir that they had verified information. On what basis was that assumption? MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON Did you ask them about whether the information they were giving you about their captives had been so verified? And if so, what prevented you from doing so? If they did not say we are telling you an information which has now been verified by our unit, why did you not ask if they had verified that information? As a chairperson of an organisation that has a cornerstone rule of verifying information before acting upon it. MR GQIBA That is what I am trying to explain, that had they found me at the office I would have asked all those questions, but at the time I was at work, busy, attending to patrons, and I did not have time for them to try and find out exactly what was happening. It was not safe at the place because there were many people, patrons, at the night club. We therefore could not have discussed these questions in the presence of so many people. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Mr Gqiba, you said you met with the applicants later on when the incident happened, and you asked them to convince you as to whether Elsie and Hapile were informers or not. My question to you is, exactly what did the applicants say to you to convince you that Elsie and Hapile were informers? MR GQIBA They emphasised that the evidence they had about the two, one of whom was killed, was that there was a time when they disappeared from the township, and during that time they were dealing with the people to whom they were informing. They said something to that effect that they were sure that these people once disappeared from the township, during which time they were away with the people to whom they were informing. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA Yes, there was evidence at the time. Evidence ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA Yes, that is correct. MS THABETHE No further questions, Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax do you have any questions for ...(inaudible) MR LAX You said that they asked you for ammunition. MR GQIBA Yes. MR LAX What sort of ammunition did they ask you for? MR GQIBA I cannot recall what kind of ammunition they requested, but yes, they wanted ammunition. MR LAX Did you go and check in the store room in the office whether there was ammunition there or not? MR GQIBA MR LAX MR GQIBA I think he is a little bit confused. I think he is forgetting some of the facts. Maybe one of them, or one of us there, or maybe their commanders knew, not myself. I did not have that knowledge. MR LAX MR GQIBA I did not go to them. I did not go to them, I only met them after a while since they had fled the township. I had not seen them for a while and when they came back from whence they had hidden, that is when I came across them. They actually came to us where we were, that is when I started asking all these questions. MR LAX MR GQIBA It was known that we as an organisation had to know, because we already knew. We only knew the following day who did that and therefore it was encumbent upon us to make sure that the information was correct, to prepare ourselves in order to account to other structures in the community. It is for that reason that I asked for verification or information to the verification of the evidence, and it transpired that one of them was in love with a policeman. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA When I met them at the time, yes it is true it was in 1994. What I am saying here is that we have civic structures and it is know that these are structures members of which are adults from the community, and here I was dealing with members of the youth league, and I would be expected to meet members of the civic and explain to them, because it was now known who were responsible for the death of Hapile. I had to go to the structures such as the civic and explain to the elderly in those structures, explain to them that I had met members of the youth league and give them a full account. CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR GQIBA It was a norm that things had to be explained to the community as to who had died and who was injured. I am no talking here about everybody, but there was a time that it was necessary to remind or inform the community that such a person whom we have been warning for a very long time has done it again, hence the result. It was therefore necessary that this be explained to the community as to how it came about that these people be killed. There was no way everyone in the township could have known that these people had just left the township. Others could have thought that these people were still in the township, members of the SDU who were making a follow up are the ones from whom we had to get information, which information we would in turn take to other structures, which structures would in turn take the same information further on. CHAIRPERSON You know Mr Gqiba, you are giving a very long winded explanation about the simple problem which has been posed to you. Why was it necessary for you to explain to the community about this incident, about who had done the deed, and why a deed had been committed, when it was public knowledge that the ladies in question were spying for the IFP and passing on information to the police? MR GQIBA It is not my knowledge that the general public knew. It was not generally known who was an informer and who was not. There were people for example in one street there would be certain people who had that information, not the entire community. For example, my mother did not know that, and my brother too, and yet they were part of the community. They were part of the community but they did not know about this. People who knew are people who came across the incident or heard about the incident, and therefore it was necessary to inform the structures, and this included parents of the people who were victims in the incident, and therefore we as leaders had to account, meet with the people who were responsible for the deeds, take them along to the different structures and explain so that ultimately the information will arrive at the parents. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Did you know Mabusa Mhlongo? MR GQIBA Yes, I know him. MR LAX MR GQIBA MR LAX Was he a member of the SDU? MR GQIBA Yes, he is still alive. MR LAX Was he a member of the SDU? MR GQIBA Yes. MR LAX Was he a commander in the SDU? MR GQIBA MR LAX As chairperson of the youth league and together with other structures did you not meet with the leadership of the SDU to discuss problems? MR GQIBA Yes, we used to meet. MR LAX And who would you meet with when you met with them? MR GQIBA We used to meet with people such as Bonga. MR LAX MR GQIBA I would not deny that or admit that. Those people in those structures are the ones who are supposed to answer to that. MR LAX Now after these two, after this lady was killed, you heard about it the next day. Is that right? MR GQIBA Yes. MR LAX What steps did you then take once you heard about this, to verify whether she was in fact an informer? Yourself, as chair of the ANC youth league? MR GQIBA What I did was that I met with those who were present, the ones who were present at the office at the time. There was a shock about these incidents, incident, some were justifying this action saying that they have been warning these girls for a very long time, and finally this has happened. CHAIRPERSON Let me get your evidence properly. Are you saying that the next day there was a meeting, and in that meeting a portion of those present expressed their shock, and others however were not surprised, and pointed to what the ladies had been doing to justify the deed? ...(intervention) MR GQIBA MR LAX So then you were convinced at that stage, in the light of what these other people were telling you in the meeting? MR GQIBA When asking other people who knew about this evidence or suspicions others would come forward and testify to the veracity of the information, so that we ultimately in unison agreed that this could have been a correct step to take. MR LAX And that was the day after the event? MR GQIBA MR LAX MR GQIBA Sometimes there would be reasons for the office to be open 24 hours, for example, discussing crime. The office was not always open 24 hours except for exceptional cases where certain things had to be discussed, meetings, like criminal cases. MR LAX Now, in any event, within a few days after this incident you had had a meeting of community people, the issue had been discussed, some had expressed their shock, but at the end of the day you were satisfied on the evidence presented at that meeting that this was a correct action. Have I understood you correctly? Just say yes or no, not a long story, please. MR GQIBA Yes, I would say so insofar as the evidence that was brought before us that that had to be done. MR LAX Well then why did you need convincing six months later when you finally saw these chaps again? Just explain that to us. MR GQIBA MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lax. Ms Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you say that you knew Mr Mabusa Mhlongo, or did you say you did not know him? MR GQIBA I said I knew him. I know him. CHAIRPERSON You knew him to be what, within the SDU structures? MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON In what capacity did you know him? MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON When Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi came to see you at the night club on the 15th of August 1993, and told you about the fact that they had captured the enemies of the organisation, in what capacity did you think they were telling you about their capture? MR GQIBA CHAIRPERSON So you thought that they are just telling you as an ordinary member of the ANC youth league? MR GQIBA I think they told me about this knowing that I was a chairperson of the youth league, knowing also that I was working at the night club. It could as well be that they met other members of the youth league before they ultimately came to me. CHAIRPERSON MR GQIBA It was not common practice, especially those, with reference to those that were not known to us. We had meetings with people such as Bonga where Bonga for example would have to give us details of what happened on such a date and reasons therefor, and how that came about. CHAIRPERSON Was it therefore not peculiar that they should have access to you with regard to an information that involved the execution of the enemy of the organisation? Did that not strike you as being peculiar, and not being accord with the common practice, that you as chairperson of the youth league, was well conversant with? MR GQIBA No, I was not familiar with this. What I know is that I had thought that they were doing what they were doing because they were desperately seeking ammunition, and because they were desperate they were trying to secure those ammunition, or that ammunition. CHAIRPERSON Did you make any attempt to find out if the capture had been done by them in their capacity as SDU members? MR GQIBA Yes, I tried to establish and I learned that they captured these people themselves. CHAIRPERSON When you say themselves, in their capacity as SDU members, was my enquiry. Did they specifically say that? MR GQIBA I know them to be members of the SDU. I knew them at the time that they were members of the SDU, so that I was sure they were members of the SDU. CHAIRPERSON You simply assumed that the capture had been done in accordance with their association with their SDU structure? MR GQIBA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions put to Mr Gqiba by the members of the Committee, ...(intervention) MS MOLOISANE I have no re-examination Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS