amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-18 JOHANNESBURG 8 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53208&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99020818_jhb_990218ji.htm MS MOLOISANE MR LAX MS MOLOISANE TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, I had an interview with the witness. TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane, can you give an indication when you intend to have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist? MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON We will grant you your request that you have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but we must stress that in view of the short life-span of the Committee, we would expect a report to be submitted to us within a very reasonable time. We therefore, without being unreasonable ourselves, must indicate that we would expect such a report to be submitted to our Cape Town office within 21 days from today. MS MOLOISANE I will try my best to secure that report within 21 days Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. That would have been your last witness? MS MOLOISANE That is correct Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON In respect of the Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo incident. MS MOLOISANE That is correct Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, what is the position from your side? Do you intend to call any witnesses in respect of the incident we are currently dealing with? MS THABETHE Yes Madam Chair. If the Committee can allow me to call Elsie Mokoena, who I had intended to call as a witness. She is the victim in this matter. I had also indicated to the Committee Members that the mother of Hapile Ndumo would like to say something as well, in public, so I would like to call her as well. CHAIRPERSON These applications are opposed, are they not? MS THABETHE My instructions are that they are opposed Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON You may therefore proceed to call the witness Elsie Mokoena. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. I call Elsie Mokoena to come. Madam Chair may I request the sound technicians to come and put another mike please? MS THABETHE Madam Chair the witness will testify in Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Elsie, please stand up. Can you hear me? MS MOKOENA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Please stand. Do you swear that the evidence that you will give this Committee will be the truth, the only truth, if that is so, raise your right and say so help me God. ELSIE MOKOENA (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON You may sit down. MR LAX Ms Moloisane can you just switch off your mike please, thanks. EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Ms Mokoena can you state your full names for the record please. MS MOKOENA Elsie Mandayi Mokoena. MS THABETHE Where do you reside? MS MOKOENA Sebokeng, Zone 12. MS THABETHE With regard to the incident which took place on the 15th of August 1993, did you know John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi? MS MOKOENA Yes, I did. MS THABETHE Before I come to the actual incident that of day, how old were you on 15th August 1993? MS MOKOENA I was 15 years old. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, may I just request that you shift your chair slightly to your left, to enable us to be able to have sight of Ms Mokoena as she gives her evidence. Yes, maybe that would be ideal, thank you. MS THABETHE My question is where did you know Fani Mkhwanazi from? MS MOKOENA I know him from Zonto, we grew up together. I just know him by sight. MS THABETHE Where, where did you see him? MS MOKOENA Are you referring to John Radebe? MS THABETHE Yes. MS MOKOENA I used to see him around the township. MS THABETHE When, did you know them to be members of the SDU or ANC? That is John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi? MS MOKOENA I knew them as members of the ANC. MS THABETHE In the tavern, is it correct that John Radebe called you outside, went into the tavern ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON When, when Ms Thabethe? Advise the witness so that she can give ...(intervention) MS THABETHE In the day. CHAIRPERSON Yes, she can know which date you want her to give evidence about. MS THABETHE On the 15th of August, Mr Mokoena. Did John go into the tavern and call you outside? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE Why did he say he was calling you outside? MS MOKOENA He said we should go to the Zone 12 office. MS THABETHE What reason did you give for you to go to Zone 12 office? MS MOKOENA He told me that they wanted to discuss something with us. MS THABETHE Did you ask him what that something was? MS MOKOENA I did not ask him. MS THABETHE When he told you this were you still inside the tavern, or outside the tavern? MS MOKOENA We were outside the tavern. MS THABETHE And they what did you say when they said you must go to Zone 12? MS MOKOENA I refused. MS THABETHE Why did you refuse? MS MOKOENA I refused because I thought they were going to rape us. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA They did not say anything about the community wanting us. Nothing. MS THABETHE Is it true that in Sebokeng there was an IFP area? MS MOKOENA There was no IFP area, I only knew it to be in Boipatong where members of the IFP resided. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER Apologies Madam Chair. MS THABETHE Was there any other IFP area near Sebokeng, where the IFP resided? MS MOKOENA Yes, but not inside the township. Outside. MS THABETHE Where was it? MS MOKOENA It was right outside Sebokeng, not inside the township. MS THABETHE What was the area called? Was it in vanderBijl Park? MS MOKOENA Yes. The area I knew was vanderBijl Park next to Boipatong. MS THABETHE Was this the area that we have heard the applicants referring to as Kwamadala? MS MOKOENA That is correct. MS THABETHE Did you, at any stage, reside at Kwamadala? MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE The applicants have said that you did. So is it your evidence that you never stayed there? MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE We also heard yesterday about a person called Meme. Do you know this person? MS MOKOENA I know that person a lot. MS THABETHE How do you know her? MS MOKOENA Meme was my friend. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE Is it not correct that you and Meme and your friends associated yourselves with the Ratesi ...(intervention) MR LAX MS THABETHE Ratesi and IFP members? MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Do you know him by sight, this Ratesi? MS MOKOENA No. CHAIRPERSON Have you heard about him? MS MOKOENA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you. Did you belong to any political organisation? MS MOKOENA No. MS THABETHE Do you know, what was your relationship with Hapile Ndumo? MS MOKOENA We were school mates and she was my friend. MS THABETHE Is it also correct that you spent a lot of time together? MS MOKOENA That is correct. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA They used to target girls, John Radebe and ...(indistinct). MS THABETHE What do you mean they used to target girls? What did they used to do to girls? MS MOKOENA They once took two girls in the township. MS THABETHE What did they do with those girls? When they took those girls, what happened? MS MOKOENA They took these girls and they went to sleep with them. They were returned in the morning. MS THABETHE How do you know this? MS MOKOENA One of the girls was my friend. MS THABETHE What was her name? MS MOKOENA Sissy. MR LAX We need another mike there please. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members I object to this kind of evidence being adduced. CHAIRPERSON On what basis Ms Mogwesi? MS MOLOISANE As it amounts to hearsay evidence the probative value of which will never be ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON Well, from what has been said there is nothing to indicate that this is hearsay. MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Well unless there is a clear indication that one of the girls who is alleged as being a relative of Ms Mokoena never told Ms Mokoena directly about this incident, so I will allow this line of question by Ms Thabethe because maybe she is still laying a basis for what is yet to come about how Ms Mokoena knows about this information. MS MOLOISANE As it please you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. There is a problem with these microphones. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE She did. CHAIRPERSON She did? MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Who did you say Sissy was? MS MOKOENA Sissy was my friend. MS THABETHE How close was she to you? MS MOKOENA She was my school mate as well. MS THABETHE You were still explaining why you think you were targeted by the applicants, that is Hapile Ndumo. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE When was this information relayed to you? MS MOKOENA She told me two days after they were taken. Two days after they were taken. MS THABETHE Would you remember when this was? Like in terms of years? MS MOKOENA I remember the year. It was in 1992. Late 1992. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA I do not remember the month. CHAIRPERSON Would you say it was winter, it was spring, if you say late 1992, was it spring or was it in summer? MS MOKOENA It was towards December. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. That assists us a great deal. MS THABETHE Did she tell you where they took her to? MS MOKOENA Yes, she told me. MS THABETHE Where, where did they take her to? MS MOKOENA They took them to Zone 12 extension. MS THABETHE Where, where in Zone 12? MS MOKOENA At a certain house next to the Mpasani shopping complex. MS THABETHE And did she tell you who John Radebe was with? MS MOKOENA She told me. MS THABETHE Who did she say he was with? MS MOKOENA John was with Godfrey. MS THABETHE Anyone else? MS MOKOENA No. CHAIRPERSON Godfrey who? Do you know the surname of Godfrey? MS MOKOENA I do not know his surname. CHAIRPERSON And where did he stay? Which zone in Sebokeng did Godfrey stay in? MS MOKOENA He resided in Zone 12. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE Can I move Madam Chair? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Thank you. My question is still why do you think you were targeted by the applicants, you and Hapile Ndumo? MS MOKOENA I do not know why they targeted us. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Do you want anything further from what she has already stated? MS THABETHE No I just wanted to clarify it because I asked her why, why, why was she targeted. So I want her to tell me why does she think she was targeted, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE MR LAX MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA That is correct. MS THABETHE Did she at any stage, to your knowledge, reside in an IFP area, that is at Madala Hostel? MS MOKOENA No. I do not know. MS THABETHE How do you know this? MS MOKOENA ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MS MOKOENA I know she never stayed in a hostel. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE My question was, how do you know that she never resided in an IFP area? MS MOKOENA She was together with me always. During the week, at the week-ends, even at school. MS THABETHE Do you know Mr Skosana? MS MOKOENA A lot. MS THABETHE How do you know him? MS MOKOENA Can I briefly elaborate how it came about that I know Skosana? MS THABETHE Yes. MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Just try and give your evidence in a pace that will enable us to write down what you are saying, and enable the interpreter to translate everything that you are saying. MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON As in Zulu? Not Hlonwane? MS MOKOENA Hlombani. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE Before I ask you about where Hlombani office was, did you know Mr Skosana to be a member of an ANC or a member of an SDU? MS MOKOENA I knew Skosana as an ANC, as I heard it from people. CHAIRPERSON And what portfolio did Mr Hlombani occupy within the ANC? MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Of the ANC branch, or the ANC youth league? MS MOKOENA I do not know, but I knew him to be the senior. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and where were his offices located, in Zone 12? MS MOKOENA There was a garage in his yard in Zone 12 that was his office. CHAIRPERSON And when did this incident of Skosana coming to knock at your house occur? Can you remember the month and the year? MS MOKOENA Yes, I remember. CHAIRPERSON Yes, when was that. MS MOKOENA It was in 1992, in June. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Why did you go and report him to Hlombani office? MS MOKOENA We were going to ask them to protect us. MS THABETHE Can you explain to the Committee what was Hlombani office, was it an ANC office, was it a community office, what was it? MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE So, are you saying that the comrades that they sent to your house were ANC? You say they were ANC supporters or members? MS MOKOENA I know them to be members. MS THABETHE After the attack by Mr Skosana, or after the visit by Mr Skosana, did you ever find out why he wanted you and your boyfriend? MS MOKOENA I did not. MS THABETHE Can you tell this Committee Member, the Committee Members about who your boyfriend was? MS MOKOENA My boyfriend was Johannes Msimi. MS THABETHE Why would you think Skosana wanted him and you? MS MOKOENA I do not know. MS THABETHE Was Hapile Ndumo every involved in the Boipatong ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before you leave this matter Ms Thabethe, was your boyfriend a member of the ANC? MS MOKOENA No. CHAIRPERSON Was he a member of the IFP? MS MOKOENA No. CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge was he perceived to be associated with the IFP? MS MOKOENA No, I have never come across such a problem regarding him. CHAIRPERSON Was he a policeman? MS MOKOENA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And where was he stationed? In Sebokeng? MS MOKOENA He was stationed at De Deur. CHAIRPERSON Was he a uniformed policeman? MS MOKOENA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Would he visit you in his uniform at your home? MS MOKOENA He stayed with me at home. When he left for work he left in uniform. CHAIRPERSON And for how long had you been staying with him prior to the 15th of August 1993? MS MOKOENA I stayed with him from 1991 until 1993. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe, you may proceed. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE Why do you say so? MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE To you knowledge, was Hapile ever involved in Boipatong massacre? MS MOKOENA Hapile ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Sorry Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair, I was not aware that Ms Mokoena was also implicated in the Boipatong massacre. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena were you ever involved in Boipatong massacre? MS MOKOENA I was at home during the Boipatong massacre. I did not take part, and Hapile was in gaol during that time. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed, can you tell us which period you say Ms Ndumo was in gaol? During which period are you referring to? MS MOKOENA Hapile was arrested in June, if I remember well, and she was released late July, around 31st of July, 1st of August. CHAIRPERSON For what was she arrested, if you know? MS MOKOENA Can I briefly explain why she was arrested? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOKOENA Hapile and other girls resided at a certain place belonging to Oupa, who was a comrade. They lived with some of the comrades. It happened that one day these comrades took a bakkie from a white woman and they killed her. One of the comrades took a van and went to Sharpeville, and he was accosted by the police. They told him that they were looking for the van, and he pointed a place where they all stayed, including Hapile and them. When the police arrived there they found Hapile and some of the comrades, and all of them were arrested. They were taken by the police to Barrage cells, they were kept in the cells and the comrades managed to escape. Hapile and them were released because Jay Naidoo interfered, intervened. CHAIRPERSON Are you aware when Boipatong massacre took place? MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. When would you say Hapile Ndumo was arrested, before or after the Boipatong massacre? MS MOKOENA She was arrested before. (gap between tapes) MS THABETHE ... the incident of 15th August 1993. Would you explain to the Committee how you escaped the second time after you were shot? MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA No, I did not see him. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA After refusing to go, John Radebe asked Abraham Mkhwanazi as to what should happen to me. CHAIRPERSON MS MOKOENA He asked Abraham as to what he should do to me because I was refusing to go. Abraham said he did not know what he should do to me. I saw him pulling a gun from his waist, and he shot at me. He shot me to the neck. After shooting me I ran away into the house at the tavern, and I hid behind a sofa. John Radebe came in, he found me behind the sofa, he ordered me to go out, and I went out. There were people outside asking as to what was happening. John Radebe responded to them by saying we were members of the IFP. Himself and Abraham had their firearms in their hands and we left the tavern, got into one of the streets, and headed for Small Farms. People were following us, and John Radebe was telling them to back, not to follow us, otherwise he would crush their heads. We then, John Radebe was ordering us to run. CHAIRPERSON MS MOKOENA When they heard that their heads were going to be crushed the people turned back. John ordered us to run, and we did as we were told, and I was bleeding. Abraham was merciful on that day, he gave me a toilet paper to wipe the blood off, and he did not want us to run. CHAIRPERSON Who went into the house? MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON For how long were they inside the house whilst you were outside? MS MOKOENA About five minutes. CHAIRPERSON You were left on your own outside? MS MOKOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE You may proceed. MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE In the evidence led by the applicants we heard about certain Sepapo. Did you know him? MS MOKOENA I did not know Sepapo, but the name was well known in the township that there was a person called Sepapo. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA No. I did not hear them at any stage, because when they conversed among themselves they would stand aside so that we did not hear. MS THABETHE Do you know Mr Mabusa? MS MOKOENA Yes, I know him. MS THABETHE Where do you know him from? MS MOKOENA I know him from Zone 12. MS THABETHE Did you know him to belong to any political organisation? MS MOKOENA I know him to be a member of the ANC. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE Have you ever heard in the township, in Zone 12, any rumours of you having been regarded as sell-outs. MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE Where did you hear such rumours from? MS MOKOENA Can I explain? MS THABETHE Yes you can. MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE Sorry Ms Mokoena. Do you remember when this was, in terms of years? MS MOKOENA I remember. MS THABETHE When was it? MS MOKOENA It was in 1992. MS THABETHE Do you remember the month MS MOKOENA It was in March. MS THABETHE Yes, you may proceed. MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE Then what was their response? MS MOKOENA They understood. And they carried out their investigations. MS THABETHE I just want to go back to this questioning. Were you the only one who were questioned that day? MS MOKOENA No, I was not alone. It was many of us. Nine girls and one boy. MS THABETHE So what happened, were you all questioned at one time? Or were you questioned separately? MS MOKOENA They were asking everybody. They would ask one person questions today and the next day they would ask the other person. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Before you leave that aspect Ms Thabethe, when you say you were questioned individually every day, for how long did this enquiry last? MS MOKOENA This process took a month and two weeks. CHAIRPERSON You mean the questioning only? MS MOKOENA Yes. The questioning. CHAIRPERSON So how long were you questioned? MS MOKOENA I think I was questioned three, if not four, days. CHAIRPERSON You were questioned for three to four days? MS MOKOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And who was doing the questioning? MS MOKOENA Many people asked me questions. CHAIRPERSON Were these people questioning you in their capacity as members of the ANC? MS MOKOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr Hlombani there as chairperson of the ANC at that time? MS MOKOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And was this questioning also joined in by the members of the community at large, not necessarily those who had positions or offices in the leadership of the local ANC? MS MOKOENA People came but they were chased out of this meeting, but some were selected to be part. CHAIRPERSON Some of the members of the community were selected to be part? MS MOKOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON As a result of this enquiry, were you punished in any way? MS MOKOENA No, I was not punished in any way. CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge, were the other girls who were questioned with you punished? MS MOKOENA No. CHAIRPERSON What was the outcome of the enquiry insofar as charges that had been levelled against you were concerned? MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON In your earlier testimony you also stated that you understand that investigations were carried out, in connection with this enquiry that you had to attend. MS MOKOENA Which people conducted the investigation? CHAIRPERSON MS MOKOENA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by saying they carried out investigations? What investigation or investigations, to your knowledge, were carried out? MS MOKOENA What I meant must they must have investigated to confirm what I told them. Because they discovered that there was no such. CHAIRPERSON They discovered that there was no such what? That your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP? They were satisfied. MS MOKOENA Yes, they were satisfied. CHAIRPERSON Who said that? MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON He specifically said he was satisfied that your boyfriend was not associated with the IFP? MS MOKOENA He said to me we are satisfied with your explanation of how you conduct your life in your township. That was the explanation I gave them about my boyfriend and how we lived together. He was satisfied. CHAIRPERSON He said this during the enquiry, and he did not say it privately to you? MS MOKOENA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ELSIE MOKOENA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Ms Thabethe. EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE (cont) Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena, still on the question of the enquiry that took place in 1992. Was Hapile also present at this enquiry? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE What was she charged with? MS MOKOENA She was not charged. MS THABETHE No, what I mean is why was she there? Why was she there with you? MS MOKOENA Because she was our friend. She was our friend. MS THABETHE Do you know how she got there? In your evidence you say you were called to come there. Do you know how she got there? Was she also called? MS MOKOENA Yes, she was also called. MS THABETHE Do you know who called her? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE Who? MS MOKOENA Fish. MS THABETHE So was she questioned? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE About what? MS MOKOENA Hapile was questioned about she was our friend, in other words she was always seen in our company. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA Sometimes she would be with me, at time she would be with Meme. MS THABETHE Was Meme also there? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE What was she questioned about? MS MOKOENA Are you referring to Meme? MS THABETHE Yes. MS MOKOENA She was questioned about the cars that would be seen at her home. MS THABETHE What kind of cars? MS MOKOENA The Cortinas, Ford Cortinas. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA They questioned her because those cars belonged to members of the IFP. MS THABETHE And what was her response? MS MOKOENA She responded by saying yes there was one among them whom she had a relationship with. MS THABETHE MS MOKOENA The decision was general. MS THABETHE What was the decision? MS MOKOENA That we can be free and leave as normal. MS THABETHE After you had been questioned, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Can you leave that aspect. The decision was general that you could be free and leave as normal. Prior to that enquiry had you not been living a normal life? MS MOKOENA CHAIRPERSON Did you understand that to mean that insofar as Meme was concerned she could continue to see him, that visitors of the persons who were driving the many cars that had been seen parked outside her home, that she could continue with a relationship with a person she had admitted that she was a member of the IFP. MS MOKOENA He was not referring to that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, let me understand you better. To what was he referring? MS MOKOENA He heard from Meme that she was going out with that, Memo advanced reasons why she was going out with that person. She told him that she did not know that these were members of the I, of Inkatha, and these people were not yet known that they were members of the IFP. I only knew them to be car stealers. CHAIRPERSON You mean car hijackers? INTERPRETER Car thieves, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Car thieves. You may proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. After the questioning, or after the enquiry, did you continue to see your boyfriend, the policeman? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MS MOKOENA MR LAX Can you hear us now? INTERPRETER The problems seems to be with the box inside the booth. MR LAX Have you sorted it out now? INTERPRETER MS THABETHE Can you hear me? INTERPRETER Yes. MS THABETHE Thank you. MR LAX Please continue. MS THABETHE Thank you. My question was, after the enquiry did you stay with your boyfriend? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE For how long thereafter? MS MOKOENA Two years. MS THABETHE When you were attacked were you still staying with your boyfriend? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE The applicants have applied for amnesty. What is your response to that? MS MOKOENA I do not have any forgiveness for them. MS THABETHE Why? MS MOKOENA Even if I forgive them and they get amnesty, who knows, they might come after me and kill me. MS THABETHE So are you saying the reason for not accepting, or rather, the reason for you opposing is that you are scared they are going to come after you? CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE May I should rephrase ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The point , get to the point. MS THABETHE My instruction Ms Mokoena is that you are opposing their application for amnesty. Can you tell this Committee why you are opposing their application for amnesty? MS MOKOENA I am here to tell the Committee that I do not forgive these people. MS THABETHE Is that all? MS MOKOENA Yes. I do not forgive them. Should it happen that they are, they get free, they might come and finish me off. MS THABETHE What, would you say in, what they did was, you think was political? MS MOKOENA I do not think so. MS THABETHE Why do you say that? MS MOKOENA MS THABETHE Regarding what they have said, the evidence that they have given, would you say they had told the whole truth to the Amnesty Committee about what happened that day, on the 15th of August 1993? MS MOKOENA Yes, they told the truth, and some way they told lies. MS THABETHE What do you mean they told lies? Which lies did they tell? MS MOKOENA About the information that they sought from the deceased, and that she was involved in the Boipatong massacre. That is not true. I know the deceased was not present during that massacre. She was in gaol. She would have never told them lies. MS THABETHE Madam Chair I have no further questions. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Moloisane do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena? MS MOLOISANE As it pleases this Committee, Madam Chair, I do have questions. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE Ms Mokoena, you said John Radebe and one Godfrey abducted, actually Sissy told you that John Radebe and on Godfrey abducted her, and went to sleep with her. Is that correct MS MOKOENA That is correct. MS MOLOISANE My instructions are that there is only one Godfrey, namely Godfrey Shiya, who is a friend of John Radebe. Are you also referring to this Godfrey Shiya? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to the whereabouts of, as to, let me put it this way Madam Chair. Do you yourself bear any knowledge as to where Godfrey Shiya was during the incident that Sissy was telling you about? MS MOKOENA Godfrey was around the township, I am sure, yes. MS MOLOISANE I put it to you that during that time Godfrey Shiya was away. He was actually out of the country. He was at a place known as Maputswa in Lesotho. What is your comment thereon? MS MOKOENA That is not true. MS MOLOISANE It is also my instruction that Godfrey Shiya had left the country early in 1992, and only returned in January, early in 1993. What do you say? MS MOKOENA That is not true. MS MOLOISANE It is also my instruction that there is documentary proof in the form of a passport belonging to this Godfrey Shiya, that can be produced to prove that he was not in the country at that stage. What can you, do you say? (gap between tapes) MS MOLOISANE Did you ever see Godfrey Shiya in Sebokeng during period, between early 1992 and early 1993? MR LAX MS MOLOISANE Mr Lax my instruction is that the said person, Godfrey Shiya, who is present here today, he is actually not sure as to the exact dates. MR LAX MS MOLOISANE He is not sure as to the exact date but he is sure that it was early in 1992 when he left the country, and he is also sure that he returned, he spent almost a whole year in Lesotho and only returned in January, early in 1993, but he does have documentary evidence in the form of the passport, which, if this Committee needs, he will be in a position to produce. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, I understand. MS MOLOISANE As it pleases this Committee. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE The second applicant, John Radebe, bears no knowledge of this incident that Sissy told you about. What is your comment thereon? MS MOKOENA He knows it. MS MOLOISANE Did Sissy tell you if she laid any charges against Radebe and his friends? MS MOKOENA They were threatened, that is why they did not lay charges. That was after they took them and slept with them. They did not lay charges. MS MOLOISANE I put it to you that Sissy never laid any charges against John. MR LAX MS MOLOISANE No, I want to tell her the reason why no charges were laid against John Radebe and his friend. MR LAX Please continue. Sorry I just thought you were going to be putting it to her that no charges were laid, as opposed to the reason why no charges were laid. MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct). You may proceed. MS MOLOISANE My instruction is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What is wrong with the microphone. MR LAX She keeps switching hers on and it switches yours off. CHAIRPERSON (pause for adjustment of microphones) MS MOLOISANE My instruction is that no charges were ever laid against them because no such incident ever took place. What is your comment thereon? MS MOKOENA MS MOLOISANE And it is also my instruction that Sissy did not tell you the truth. All that she told you was not the truth concerning that incident, or the alleged incident. MS MOKOENA Sissy would not start such a topic for no reason. MS MOLOISANE Now during 1991 were you not thirteen years of age? Were you not thirteen years old? MS MOKOENA Yes, I was. MS MOLOISANE And it was during that period that you say you were staying with your boyfriend, Johannes Masime. Is that correct? CHAIRPERSON That is so, get to the point. What is it that? MS MOLOISANE MS MOLOISANE MS MOKOENA I knew him to be a comrade, whether he was involved in units I do not know. MS MOLOISANE MS MOKOENA I ran away because I knew what he was doing in the township. MS MOLOISANE But you knew him to be an ANC member. Is that not so? MS MOKOENA Yes. He was an ANC member, but he was notorious, even though he was an ANC. MS MOLOISANE It is my instruction that Skosana came to your home after he had learned about your involvement, or alleged involvement, with IFP men. What do you say? MS MOKOENA I do not know the reasons why he came to me. I only ran away because I know that he was not choosy. He just killed. MS MOLOISANE I further put it to you that the reason why you fled through the window was because you knew that you were one of the IFP spies and that he would question you about it. What is your comment thereon? MS MOKOENA That is not true. Skosana took girls and slept with them. He would come to your home, abduct you, and sleep with you. I ran because, had he found the two of us, he would have killed the policeman, take me, used me, and killed me afterwards. MS MOLOISANE Where was your friend Johannes Masime at that stage? MS MOKOENA He was working night shift. MS MOLOISANE So if I understand you well, the comrades, or the ANC members, knew where to find Johannes Masime. They knew that he would be at your home if they wanted him, is that not so? MS MOKOENA Which people? MS MOLOISANE ...(indistinct) MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE In other words, if they wanted him because of his being a policeman, they wouldn't have had, or they wouldn't have encountered any problems in locating him. Is that not correct? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE Now you told this Committee that most of the time you were with Hapile. MR LAX She said most of the time Hapile was with her. Just a difference in emphasis. MS MOLOISANE Most of the time, Hapile was with you. MS MOKOENA Yes, we would have time together. MS MOLOISANE Now if that is the case, how did it happen that you not be arrested when Hapile was arrested? MS THABETHE Objections. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what are you objecting about? MS THABETHE Madam Chair I think it was the evidence of Ms Mokoena that Hapile was staying elsewhere at that time. CHAIRPERSON Let Ms Mokoena respond to that. She will be able to do so. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. MS MOKOENA I was not arrested because in 1992 I was pregnant and I was staying at home and Hapile and them stayed where they were arrested. MS MOLOISANE Now, my instruction is that you were never targeted by the SDUs or by the comrades, because of your affair with, your love affairs with a policeman, Johannes Masime. You were never targeted because of your involvement, or because of your love affair with Johannes Masime. MS MOKOENA Let them explain then why they targeted me. MS MOLOISANE Yes, I'm still coming to that. It is my instruction that you were targeted, you and Hapile Ndumo were targeted because you were IFP spies. MS MOKOENA Those were hallucinations. MS MOLOISANE Is it not so that your boyfriend Johannes Masime was never at any stage attacked by the comrades or by the ANC people or members in the township? MR LAX That's been her evidence to date. He's never been attacked. He continued to live with her even after this incident. MS MOLOISANE That is correct Mr Lax. The reason why I'm highlighting this is because I want to further put it to her that the reason for her attack was simply not because Johannes Masime was a policeman, and that is why Johannes Masime was himself never attacked by anybody, despite his staying in the township. MR LAX Your clients have both said they didn't know Masime. Your clients have both said in their testimony that they didn't know who Johannes Masime was. So how can they even begin to put such a proposition to this witness? They didn't know who the man was. You understand? That was their evidence. They never heard of him before. So, they're in no position to say anything about him, and you're therefore in no position to put anything about him to them, other than in the most general of ideas. MS MOLOISANE The reason why I am putting this question is because Mr Bonga Khumalo stated that he was aware that the witness, that Elsie Mokoena had an affair with a policeman and he categorically stated that he was not attacked. She, I mean, was not targeted because of her love affair with a policeman. CHAIRPERSON Well continue to put it to her, though you've already done that, and she has already said if that is what they are saying they are hallucinating. You may continue to do so. MS MOLOISANE Ms Mokoena, do you agree with me that if there was anything wrong in you being in love with a policeman surely that policeman would have been attacked as well? MS MOKOENA Yes. If it was a mistake to go out with a policeman, he could have been attacked as well. But then, there was no mistake in going out with a policeman. MS MOLOISANE Do you know a woman by the name, or a girl by the name of Ntombimbi, or did you know here? MS MOKOENA I do not know her personally. I've never seen her. I only know the name. MS MOLOISANE Was she not your friend. MS MOKOENA No. MS MOLOISANE But you have already told this Committee that Meme was your friend. MS MOKOENA Yes, Meme was my friend. MS MOLOISANE And you have already confirmed that Meme was often seen in cars. Is that not so? CHAIRPERSON Not seen in cars. That she did have a boyfriend who was driving a car and that boyfriend was an IFP member, but that when the relationship started she was not aware that he was an IFP member. She thought that person was a car thief. She initially knew the boyfriend as a car thief. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair. Ms Mokoena my instruction is further that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP. What do you say of that? MS MOKOENA They are lying. CHAIRPERSON Are your instructions also that they were spying for the IFP and also passing on information to the police? That is how I understood the basis of the motive that led to the killing, as stated by, in particular, Mr Radebe. MS MOLOISANE That is correct Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON I think it would be fair then to put both the reasons why they were target, that they were IFP spies as well as being, as well as passing on information to the police, obviously bearing in mind that she had a relationship with a policeman. MS MOLOISANE Ms Mokoena my instruction is that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP and you were also passing on information to them and to the police. What is your comment thereon? MS MOKOENA The spies could not live long in the township. If it was know that I was, Impimpi Hapile was one and Meme was one, we would have been killed long time ago. MS MOLOISANE You also told this Committee that you were aware the perception in the township, or the perception by people in the township that you were an IFP spy. Is that not so? MS MOKOENA That is so. MS MOLOISANE Was that the case with Hapile as well? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE And you also confirm that at some stage you appeared before the ANC I shall say disciplinary committee also. You were questioned at the ANC office or at that garage which was being used as the office. MS MOKOENA Yes, I agree. MS MOLOISANE And during those, during the questioning, you were, let me rephrase it this way. During that time you were extensively questioned about your involvement with the IFP, is that not correct? MS MOKOENA That is not correct. MS MOLOISANE Were you not questioned about being a friend of Meme who also had an affair with that IFP member? MS MOKOENA I was questioned. MS MOLOISANE Were you not being associated with the IFP's because of Meme's affair with that IFP member? MS MOKOENA No. MS MOLOISANE Was Stanley Gqiba not present at that time? Or let me put it this way, do you know Stanley Gqiba, a person by the name of Stanley Gqiba? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE He was one of the office bearers of the ANC in Sebokeng, is that not correct? MS MOKOENA That is correct. MS MOLOISANE I put it to you that the allegation, or before I come to that my lord. ADV BOSMAN MS MOLOISANE Do you agree that this Stanley Gqiba was in fact present during the questioning? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE Did he also question you on that day, or during that period. MS MOKOENA No. MS MOLOISANE I put it to you, and it is further my instruction, that you were questioned about your involvement in the, with the IFP. What is your comment thereon? MS MOKOENA No, I was not asked. MS MOLOISANE Were you also present when Hapile Ndumo was questioned? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE What was she questioned about? MS MOKOENA She was questioned of her relationship with Memo. She was asked whether when the cars arrive at Meme's place she would be present, and she was asked whether she had a friend as well, in that group of IFP men. MS MOLOISANE And what was her response? MS MOKOENA She said no. No. MS MOLOISANE You say, or let me put it this way Madam Chair, my instructions is further that you and Hapile were lashed and reprimanded for your, I mean after you were questioned at the ANC office there, or rather at the garage. What do you say about that? MS MOKOENA Those are their hallucinations. MS MOLOISANE Now let's go to the events of the 15th of August 1993. You told this Committee that, when John Radebe called you, you thought that you, they were going to rape you, is that not so? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE But did you not know that they were SDU members, that John Radebe was an SDU member? MS MOKOENA I knew that they were comrades. MS MOLOISANE And the same applies to Abraham Mkhwanazi, is that no so? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE Now, do you agree with me when I say that on that particular day they had, if they wanted to rape you they had ample chance to do that? CHAIRPERSON Just expand more so to enable her to respond properly. Tell her what ample time they had. Expand more on what you are putting to her, explain what you mean when you say they had ample time to rape her. MS MOLOISANE Let me start it this way Madam Chair. How long did it, or, I still have a difficulty. Let me rephrase it again. What time was it when you were called, you and Hapile were called at the tavern by John Radebe? MS MOKOENA It was something to five o'clock. MS MOLOISANE And what time was it when you were shot, you Elsie Mokoena, when you were shot at? MS MOKOENA It was about five past five, if not ten past five. ADV BOSMAN Is that really a fair question? Because what the witness testified was he asked her, the first time to come with him, she thought he would rape her. So is this a fair question, to say he had ample time? She did not testify that at the time that they were shot she thought they were going to rape her. She testified that when he first asked her at the tavern to come with him, she thought that they were going to rape her. MS MOLOISANE Then I will leave it then Committee Member. You say you know comrade Mabusa Mhlongo? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE Did, do you know, or did you know at that stage what portfolio he had in the SDUs? MS MOKOENA No. MS MOLOISANE But you knew him to be an ANC member, is that not correct? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS MOLOISANE My instruction is that comrade Mabusa Mhlongo had issued an order to John Radebe that he should go and apprehend you and Hapile, wherever they saw you. Do you have any comment thereon? MS MOKOENA I do not know. I was not present when an order was made. MS MOLOISANE So you are not in a position to can dispute that whatever John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi or Abraham Mkhwanazi did on that particular day was in execution of orders that had already been issued, not so? You are not in a position to ...(indistinct). MS MOKOENA I would not have a reason to dispute that. MS MOLOISANE My instruction is that there was in fact an order that had been issued by comrade Mhlongo, that you and Hapile be apprehended wherever you were to be seen, and that you should be killed, as you were classified as ...(indistinct). MS MOKOENA I don't know, I don't know whether Mabusa said, let me say I don't know. MS MOKOENA That is why ...(intervention). MR LAX She's answered this already. Please, you're going over it for the third time now. MS MOLOISANE I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Moloisane. Ms Thabethe do you have any re-examination emanating from Ms Moloisane's questioning? MS THABETHE Yes Madam Chair, I do. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE When Skosana came to your house was it before of after the enquiry in 1992? MS MOKOENA It was after. MS THABETHE Would you say therefore he knew about the decision that was reached at the enquiry? MS MOKOENA He knew very well. MS THABETHE Why do you think he knew? MS MOKOENA When a decision was taken about ourselves the house was full. MS THABETHE Was he there? Did you see him there? MS MOKOENA Yes. MS THABETHE When he came to your house, that is Mr Skosana, did he say why he wanted you and your boyfriend? MS MOKOENA He refused to advise reasons. MS THABETHE Is it also true that when you were called to the enquiry you were found not guilty? MS MOKOENA That is correct. MS THABETHE And it's also you evidence that, earlier on that you were told to go on as living, and to live as normal? CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe I am going to disallow your line of re-examination. You are supposed to re-examine on anything that came out as a result of Ms Moloisane's questioning. I have allowed you already a great amount of latitude. You are questioning Ms Mokoena on issues that have long been traversed. With regard to when Skosana came to her house, whether it was before or after, her, Ms Mokoena's evidence has been crystal clear on that issue. Mr Skosana came in June 1992, and the enquiry took place in March 1992. Nothing new came out during Ms Moloisane's cross-examination. I will not allow this line of re-examination. If you still have anything new that has come out as a result of Ms Moloisane's cross-examination, proceed to do so. Do not repeat the ground that has already been traversed. MS THABETHE As the Chair pleases, I am indebted to you. One last question. Was Mabusa present at the enquiry in 1992? CHAIRPERSON The enquiry was not in 1992 according to Ms Mokoena's evidence. That enquiry took place in March 1992 and yes, the house was full and Mr Skosana was amongst those. MS THABETHE I said Mr Mabusa Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry. You may proceed to answer Ms Mokoena, that question. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. MS MOKOENA I did not see Mabusa. CHAIRPERSON Save for the correction that the enquiry on your testimony took place in March 1992, is it not so? MS MOKOENA That is correct. MS THABETHE That was my last question Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Lax do you have any questions to put to Ms Mokoena? MR LAX No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Bosman do you have any questions? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mokoena we wish to thank you for having had the courage to come and give your testimony to us after what you have been through. We hope you will be present during the remainder of the proceedings, because it is in your interests, and we hope this process will go a long way in trying to address the pain that we know you were subjected to. We thank you very much ma'am. We also appreciate the courage that you have shown during your viva voce evidence. We know it is not an easy thing for a person who has been subjected to any kind of atrocity that we have to deal with as an Amnesty Committee, to be able to contain herself when she gives evidence, because the mere giving of evidence revives the terrible memories, that I am sure not only you but our country would like to have as a closed page. We thank you. You may step down now. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, you had earlier on indicated that the relatives of Ms Hapile Ndumo also wanted to testify in respect of the incident that we are currently dealing with. Is that still your intention, and if so, who do you wish to call? MS THABETHE Madam Chair, it was my instruction that they want to, the mother wants to says something to the Committee members and to the public, so I would proceed to call her, and in the meantime, can I be excused for two minutes? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Before we excuse you, do you feel this would be an appropriate time to adjourn, or would you prefer that she comes in and gives her testimony before we can adjourn for lunch? MS THABETHE I would prefer if she gives testimony before we adjourn for lunch. I will be strictly two minutes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a two minute adjournment. I hope everyone has his or her watch on to time Ms Thabethe. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, your two minutes having long expired I need you to proceed. You are going to call one of the parents of Ms Hapile Ndumo, the deceased. MS THABETHE Yes Madam Chair. I'll proceed to call Mrs Ndumo, who wants to say something to the Committee and to the public. Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to lead her? MS THABETHE Yes I do. MRS NDUMO Do I have to take an oath? CHAIRPERSON It was explained that you'd like to say something to us, and we want to take an oath for that. And because you are the mother to the deceased, we saw it necessary to give you this opportunity and tell us what is in your heart. We now give you this opportunity. MRS NDUMO I wanted to tell this Committee how I found the body of my child. She was shot four times and the letters of Inkatha were cut into her thigh, and she was dragged from where, from the original place of killing. I want to tell this Committee that I'm deeply hurt at the loss of my child. She would be working for me today, doing everything. I am old. She is dead. They are here seeking amnesty. I do not forgive someone who wronged me. I do not forgive anyone, because by forgiving them I would be sending a message of, yes, you helped me by killing my daughter. I do not have any forgiveness. I don't have anyone to draw water for me. I don't have anyone to iron for me. And to come here and say thank you, you killed my daughter, no ways. I have nothing further to say. CHAIRPERSON We thank you for your words and they clearly indicate how deeply you hurt. We want to tell you that the process that we are busy with, it's a process that is trying to see whether the people who killed had a political motive. If we discover that they killed because of politics, under the Act then we are obliged to give them amnesty. That's what we can do as a Committee. And we cannot force people who lost their loved ones to forgive. It has to come from them. I do understand what you are saying, and we thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe do you still have further witnesses to call in opposition to the applicants' applications? MS THABETHE No Madam Chair, that concludes my evidence. CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane, where do we go from here? MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, it has come to my attention that comrade Mabusa Mhlongo has arrived. I have had the opportunity of consulting with him, and I am therefore of the intention to call him to come and testify, and I therefore withdraw my earlier request that he be sent for psychological or psychiatric assessment. CHAIRPERSON I think we will then hesitatingly accede to your request, and we'll allow you therefore to call Mr Mabusa Mhlongo. Ms Moloisane are you in a position to call Mr Mabusa Mhlongo now? MS MOLOISANE Correct, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON What language does he speak? MS MOLOISANE Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Can you please stand up Mr Mhlongo? Give us your full names. WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You may sit. EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE Mr Mhlongo, during 1991 where were you? MR MHLONGO I was in exile. MS MOLOISANE When did you come back into the country? MR MHLONGO 1992 in February. MS MOLOISANE Now, when you came back into the country, is it not so that there was violence in the Vaal townships, is that no so? MR MHLONGO That is true, there was violence. MS MOLOISANE Now tell this Committee what did you do or in what kind of activities were you involved in immediately after your return. MR MHLONGO I became a member of the ANC youth league. I served in the committee as the secretary, and I was the unit commander for the underground structure. MS MOLOISANE How old were you by then? 1992. MR MHLONGO I was nineteen years old. MS MOLOISANE Yes, proceed. MR MHLONGO When I arrived in the country there was a lot of violence. I had to get information from the comrades as to who belonged where, and I got information that Hapile Ndumo, Meme and a group of them were now under the IFP. As the member of the unit, and as the commander, I managed to investigate this thing thoroughly. Now there was this unit that was under my command, and during the patrols a certain vehicle approached. It was white in colour. There were two boys inside and three girls. Hapile was among them. MS MOLOISANE Now when was this? MR MHLONGO It was in 1992 after June. MS MOLOISANE Now you say you had this information. From who did you get the information, about Hapile Ndumo and Meme and other girls? MR MHLONGO The ANC leadership. The leadership of the youth league. MS MOLOISANE Now after ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Can you be specific? Who in the leadership of the youth league gave him that information? MR MHLONGO I did not understand the question. CHAIRPERSON Who in the leadership of the ANC youth league gave the information about Hapile and her group? MR MHLONGO It was the chairperson, Stanley. INTERPRETER Chairperson, the interpreters request the witness to speak a little bit louder. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlongo, what you say must be heard by the interpreters, and we are going to request you to speak louder. Do you understand? MR MHLONGO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON They have to hear what you say because we are writing down what you say, we write it in English. MR MHLONGO My apologies Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And don't be fast when you speak. You're still okay now. MS MOLOISANE Proceed Mr Mhlongo. MR MHLONGO While I was in the patrol my unit was controlling the area called LTA. MS MOLOISANE Where is that area? MR MHLONGO That is Zone 12 Extension. MS MOLOISANE Proceed. MR MHLONGO I was at the main entrance. MS MOLOISANE With whom were you? MR MHLONGO I was by myself. CHAIRPERSON When you say your unit was patrolling, do you mean you alone were patrolling? MR MHLONGO The unit was patrolling inside the township and I was at the entrance. A white vehicle approached with two boys inside. MS MOLOISANE Proceed. MR MHLONGO And there were girls at the back, more than three. Hapile was one of them. I took out a hand grenade, and I threw it inside. They took it out through the window. It did not explode. MS MOLOISANE Now why did you throw a hand grenade into the car in which they were travelling? MR MHLONGO It was a car belonging to the Mdwembes and at that time a Mdwembe was to be killed when seen. MS MOLOISANE Who was the owner of that car? MR MHLONGO Hanta Ndlovu was the driver of the car. I do not know who the owner was. MS MOLOISANE Who is this Hanta Ndlovu? MR MHLONGO MS MOLOISANE Proceed. MR MHLONGO And they sped off, leaving the township. MS MOLOISANE Now, what was wrong in, with this Hanta Ndlovu being a member of the SPU? Inkatha SPU? MR MHLONGO There is something wrong there. It's because he came to the township to kill. MS MOLOISANE How did you know that he had come to the township to kill? MR MHLONGO Their operations as to come into the township and kill, and kidnap the girls. MS MOLOISANE Were you saying that from prior experience, or was that what you were suspecting them of coming to do? MR MHLONGO It is something that they had done earlier, in other townships. CHAIRPERSON Are you implying that they had not done that in your township. When you say that it was something they had done in other townships? MR MHLONGO They had not done it in my township before. CHAIRPERSON What period are we talking about here? When did you see this Hanta Ndlovu at the entrance of LTA? Which year? MR MHLONGO It was in 1992. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember the month? MR MHLONGO I do not. CHAIRPERSON Now can you recall whether it was immediately after you had set up your unit? You came back in 1992. How long after you had returned did you become a commander? You've been able to tell us that you came back in February 1992, when then did you become a commander of your unit? MR MHLONGO I became the commander of the unit after the units were thoroughly established. CHAIRPERSON We want to know an estimation of when you became a commander. How long did it take for the units to be thoroughly established, as you say? MR MHLONGO I do not remember how long. CHAIRPERSON Now, to your knowledge, did this incident when you see Hanta Ndlovu, did it take place towards the end of 1992, did it take place mid-1992, or are you unable to estimate was it summer, was it winter, was it raining, was it cold, did you have to put on a jersey? MR MHLONGO I would not exactly explain because I always had my lumber jacket on. CHAIRPERSON Now let me try and assist you. You know that in June 1992 there was a massacre that is now notoriously known as Boipatong massacre. Can you remember that ? MR MHLONGO Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON When you spotted the two boys and the three girls in this white car, was it before the massacre, or was it after the massacre? MR MHLONGO It was before the Boipatong massacre. CHAIRPERSON It was before the Boipatong massacre? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MS MOLOISANE Now, you said these, I mean it had never happened in your township, that is such attacks had never been carried in your township. In which townships had they taken place? MR MHLONGO Zone 7, know as Chief Ntuli. MS MOLOISANE Are you referring to Zone 7 Sebokeng? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS MOLOISANE So, if I understand you well, what you are saying is actually that it had never happened to your Zone? Not to your township, because you are talking here of Sebokeng township. MR MHLONGO I was referring to our Zone, but it had happened in Sebokeng. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlongo, you see when you refer to a township, then it's Sebokeng. If you want to refer to Zone, refer to it as Zone. MR MHLONGO My apologies Chairlady. CHAIRPERSON If you say so, we would think that you don't know what you are talking about. MR MHLONGO My apologies Chairperson. This thing had not happened in our Zone, it happened in other Zones. CHAIRPERSON You said this thing had not happened before in your township, and you said just after that it happened in Zone 7. Are you now saying it happened in other Zones? Apparently Mr Mhlongo is not getting any translation of what I am saying. INTERPRETER Chairperson, it's because the Chairperson is speaking in Sotho, so he hears directly the Chairperson and the interpreters are going out in English. CHAIRPERSON Yes, there is something wrong with, but what I'm telling Mr Mhlongo, that little box will help you to hear me. Don't keep it in your hand, leave it on the table. Don't even block it with your hand. Can I repeat what I was saying? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Your earlier evidence said these things, that is the killing of people and kidnapping of girls by the IFP people never happened in the township, they only happened in Zone 7, and you now changing. You're saying they happened in other zones. We want you to give us a clear evidence that we can write. MR MHLONGO Thank you Chairperson. Such a thing had never happened in our Zone, but it happened in other zones. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE Now after that vehicle sped off, what happened? MR MHLONGO I called the members of my unit. MS MOLOISANE Were the applicants in this case, Fani Mkhwanazi and John Radebe amongst your unit members, or not? MR MHLONGO At that time Fani Mkhwanazi was a member of my unit. MS MOLOISANE And John Radebe? MR MHLONGO He was in another district. He had not come to my district. MS MOLOISANE You may proceed. MR MHLONGO I then told my unit that it should be very vigilant. I told them that I did not want to hear anything reported to me about Zone 12. I told them that anything that would happen in Zone 12, they will carry that responsibility. MS MOLOISANE Yes, you may proceed. MR MHLONGO They listened and they kept watch at all times, until morning. And when we met again in the morning I gave them orders that should it happen they see Hapile Ndumo they should kill her, together with her friend Mandayi. MS MOLOISANE Who is Mandayi? MR MHLONGO Mandayi is the survivor. MS MOLOISANE Are you referring to Elsie Mokoena, the one present in the hall? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS MOLOISANE No when you gave these orders what specific order did you give? Did you specify what had to be done to them? CHAIRPERSON Before you answer Mr Mhlongo, what do you want to elicit from him? He has already said he gave an order that they should kill Hapile and her friend Mandayi who is Elsie, when they saw them. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair. MR MHLONGO It was in the morning when I dismissed them to go and prepare themselves for other activities of the day, and I went to go and investigate the whereabouts of Hapile and I discovered that she was not around Zone 12 together with her friend Mandayi. Mandayi was also not around Zone 12. It took quite some time before I could assemble, before I could meet them, the year and that, before I could meet them, and I met Hapile in town. MS MOLOISANE That was in 1993 then? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS MOLOISANE When in 1993 was it? MR MHLONGO It was around May. I could not talk to her because she was busy with an operation, harassing the community. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by that? I don't understand this aspect of your evidence. You met Hapile in town. MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You could not speak to her. MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You wanted to talk to her? MR MHLONGO It was my wish to talk to her. CHAIRPERSON Yes, why couldn't you talk to her? MR MHLONGO I could not speak to her because she was among a group of boys who referred to me as Umvembe, upon seeing me. CHAIRPERSON Were these boys known to you? MR MHLONGO I knew some of them. CHAIRPERSON And who were they? MR MHLONGO Oupa Smith. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MHLONGO Dondo. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MHLONGO Dada. CHAIRPERSON Mm. MR MHLONGO Jabu. Those are the ones I knew. CHAIRPERSON How did you know them? MR MHLONGO Jabu once stayed, once lived in Zone 12. Dada once lived in Zone 12. Oupa Smith lived in Zone 13. I just knew Dondo because he was pointed at. I was told there is Dondo. CHAIRPERSON When you say the ones lives in Zone 12, when you met them where were they living, did you know? MR MHLONGO At that time they lived in Kwamadala. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair. If you say they were busy harassing people, what were they actually doing? MR MHLONGO They assaulted people from the township who came to buy groceries in town, and those groceries would be taken from them. And that actually changed my heart. I became more cruel. CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane I think this is a most appropriate time to break for lunch. I notice the time is two o'clock. MS MOLOISANE I do not have any objection Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a lunch adjournment of thirty minutes, and we'll reconvene at two thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO (s.u.o) MR MHLONGO Thank you Chair. MS THABETHE Madam Chair it's Ms Moloisane still, leading evidence. CHAIRPERSON That's true. I'm sorry about that oversight Ms Moloisane. You are still ...(indistinct) EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE (Cont) As it pleases you Madam Chair. Madam Chair will you, will the Committee, will you read the last statement of Mr Mhlongo so that he can continue from there? MR LAX Yes he said that this occurrence where he had met Hapile with these people in town, had actually changed his heart and he became most cruel. That's how it was translated. MS MOLOISANE You may proceed Mr Mhlongo. MR MHLONGO Thank you Chair. Yes, this was not acceptable to me, and in 1993 around May I co-opted John Radebe and I took him to Sasolburg for crash courses. That's where he received his training up, and when he came back I gave him the two IC rank. And I gave him an order, I said to him, "...Radebe should you meet Hapile and Elsie, kill them." MS MOLOISANE Did you explain to Radebe why he had to kill them? MR MHLONGO I was not supposed to explain as a commander, I was just supposed to tell him what to do. MS MOLOISANE Where was Abraham Mkhwanazi at that time when you gave the orders to Radebe? MR MHLONGO It was the unit as a whole. MS MOLOISANE You may proceed. CHAIRPERSON Before he does that. Mr Radebe was co-opted by you in May 1993, and taken to Sasolburg for his crash course. When did he come back from Sasolburg? MR MHLONGO If I remember well he came back in June. It was a one month course. CHAIRPERSON And when did you give Mr Radebe and the entire unit the order to kill Hapile and Elsie? MR MHLONGO It was after Mr Radebe passed his training. The unit he was supposed to be introduced to the unit and give them his rank. CHAIRPERSON Was that in June? MR MHLONGO It was in the middle of June. I do not remember the date. CHAIRPERSON You are saying the order was not given to Radebe alone, it was given to the members of the unit? MR MHLONGO Yes. That's what I'm saying. CHAIRPERSON Who was present amongst members of your unit when you gave that order? MR MHLONGO It was Mr Radebe, Fani Mkhwanazi Godfrey Shiya, Bongani Chansa, Sipho Tshabalala, Shakes, I do not know his surname, Bopipo. CHAIRPERSON Yes. The order was given to the entire members of your unit? MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And they were to execute the order if anyone of them came across the two ladies in question? MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE Now, after you had given them the orders, what happened? MR MHLONGO Two months went by, if I'm not mistaken. On a Monday Bopipo came to me to report that an order had been carried out in that Hapile was dead, and the other one survived. MS MOLOISANE Now, what was you policy in relation to the carrying out of orders? Were the unit members expected to report back to you, was there any specific person who had to do that? MR MHLONGO The person who carried out an order is the accountable person. MS MOLOISANE In this ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON May I interrupt please. The person who executed an order would have come to you, and that would be so irrespective of his rank? That is so, isn't it? MR MHLONGO Can you repeat your question, Chair? CHAIRPERSON Your evidence was that a person who executed an order was accountable to you, and my question is, am I correct in therefore assuming that that person would be so accountable to you irrespective of rank, as long as he had executed your order? MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE You say Bopipo then made the report to you, is that correct? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS MOLOISANE And Bopipo is Borman Ntjolo, is that correct? Is that the same person as Borman Ntjolo? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS MOLOISANE Did you investigate this after this report was made to you? MR MHLONGO Unfortunately I did not have time. The situation was tense and I had to be on the run. MS MOLOISANE Now you said you were the unit commander. Were you accountable to anyone or not? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS MOLOISANE To whom were you accountable? MR MHLONGO It was commander action known as Bonga Khumalo. MS MOLOISANE Now when you issued this particular order, specific order that Hapile and Elsie should be killed, did you do that on your own or was it because of orders that you received from elsewhere? MR MHLONGO This had been issued out as a general order, and as a commander of the unit I also had authority to order somebody's death if it was necessary. MS MOLOISANE Is this your evidence that your (GAP BETWEEN TAPES) CHAIRPERSON It is not his evidence. Don't lead him on that aspect. MS MOLOISANE As it please you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ask him who had issued ...(intervention) MS MOLOISANE Who had issued these general orders? MR MHLONGO I had explained that it was Bonga, commander Bonga Khumalo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlango you had not yet explained that, and I am listening to you as you give your evidence in Sotho. I can't even apportion blame to the translator. You had not yet said anything about the person who had issued the order. You may simply proceed to respond to questions put to you by Ms Moloisane and don't tell us about that which you have already said or not. Just answer the question without having to prefix anything to your responses. MR MHLONGO Thank you chair. MS MOLOISANE Now what did he say when he issued this command, this order? MR MHLONGO He issued out this order to the unit commanders and said should Hapile and them be seen anywhere they should be killed. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose, when was this general order issued by Mr Khumalo? MR MHLONGO It was after the SDUs were properly established. CHAIRPERSON Yes, which was when? We know you came back in February 1992. When were the SDUs properly established? MR MHLONGO They were established around June, if I'm not mistaken, and that's when he issued out a general order. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. And let me repeat what you've said. The general order was to the effect that you as unit commander should kill Hapile and Elise when you saw them. And this an order that was given by Mr Khumalo to you as unit commanders, that's correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE Now you have referred to it as a general order. Why do you say it was a general order? MR MHLONGO I'm saying it was a general order because their death sentence had already been made. Now as unit commanders of the four units we were supposed to know this message clearly. MS MOLOISANE Did this general order only concern Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, or did it also cover other Imidwembe? MR MHLONGO The general order covered Imidwembe. CHAIRPERSON Hasn't it been your evidence that the general order was that you should kill Elsie and Hapile? Is that not your evidence? I believe you may be correct. My note says that the general order was that you should kill Hapile and Elsie. It would appear that one of my colleagues has something different. What do you have? ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed then Ms Moloisane, thank you. You can canvass. MS MOLOISANE Should he continue to clarify that? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOLOISANE Please clarify that. CHAIRPERSON What did it mean when the order referred to Hapile and them? MR LAX You're looking a bit puzzled Mr Mhlongo. Do you understand the question? MR MHLONGO I do not understand it. MR LAX Let me explain it to you. You're being asked to elaborate on what you meant when you said, and just to give you the background, you were asked what were the specific words Bonga Khumalo told you, as commanders. Your answer was that he issued out this order to the unit commanders. He said, and then you quoted him, "...should you see Hapile and them, or should they be seen anywhere, they should be killed." Do you remember saying that ? MR MHLONGO Yes, I remember. MR LAX Now the question is, what did you mean by using the words Hapile and them? Do you understand the question? MR MHLONGO Yes, I understand the question. MR LAX Please explain. MR MHLONGO When I'm referring to Hapile and them I was referring to Hapile and the other Imidwembe that were present at that time. Hapile and Elsie included. CHAIRPERSON What did you understand to be the definition of Imidwembe? MR MHLONGO Those were the people to be killed when seen. CHAIRPERSON Repeat your answer in Sesotho and let the translator listen to you response in Sesotho properly. MR MHLONGO These were the people to be killed when seen, because if we don't kill them they were going to kill us. MS MOLOISANE But what kind of people were they? MR MHLONGO I do not understand your question, what kind of people were they. MS MOLOISANE We know they were Imidwembe. What does that mean? MR MHLONGO Are you referring to the word Imidwembe? MS MOLOISANE That is correct. MR MHLONGO Imidwembe means an enemy to us. MS MOLOISANE Now on what account did you classify Hapile and Elsie as enemies. MR MHLONGO They were enemies. MR LAX The question is, why did you consider them to be your enemies? MR MHLONGO I have explained already that I saw them harassing the community. It was my aims as well as my duty to protect the community, and it was my responsibility to see to it that the community was safe. MS MOLOISANE Do you know if ..(intervention). CHAIRPERSON May I interpose? Your evidence has not elicited anything about what Hapile and Elsie did. Your harassment that you are referring to has been in relation to the person, or to persons that you named Oupa Smith, Dondo, Dada, and that group. You did not in your evidence say how Elsie, other than having been seen in their company, harassed the community. MR MHLONGO My apologies. They harassed the community in the sense in that they were the ones who identified the community, the members of the communities, and they were the ones who pointed out the houses where these people lived. Ultimately those people died. CHAIRPERSON And your earlier evidence that Dada stayed, before he moved to Kwamadala Hostel, at Zone 12, and so did Jabu, you didn't know where Dondo stayed, and Oupa Smith stayed in Zone 13. Why would it have been necessary for Elsie and Hapile to identify people to be attacked by the IFP when in fact they were in the company of people who were familiar with your zone and were also familiar with the community in Zone 13, because they had before moving to Kwamadala Hostel been staying in those zones? MR MHLONGO Thank you chair. It is true they once lived in those zones, but they did not have information as to who the active members were. Now to know who the active members were, it was through them. And who was from outside the country, they knew through them. And we were in their hit list. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE And how did you know that you were in their hit list? MR MHLONGO I know it because we captured some of them and they told us the names that were at Kwamadala and the people who revealed those names. CHAIRPERSON When was this capture? MR MHLONGO It was during the hard times of violence. We kidnapped some of them in town and bring them to the township and give us information and killed them afterwards. CHAIRPERSON I know that this happened during the political turmoil in Sebokeng. I just need the precise period. Which month and which year did you capture people who were able to tell you that you were in the hit list? MR MHLONGO Thank you Chair. I have already alluded to the situation. You know, I've lost so many things. I do not remember when it was in the year. I can't remember. CHAIRPERSON Well did that information come to your knowledge in 1993, or in 1992? You should be able to remember, we are dealing with a situation wherein you only came back into the country in February 1992. You are able to remember the precise month when you came back into the country, and when you established the SDUs. Surely did you capture these people whilst you were a commander of the SDU? Did this happen whilst you were in command? MR MHLONGO Yes, they were captured whilst I was still the commander. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you were the commander in May, June 1992. That's when you became the commander. MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Then you were commander by the 15th of August 1993, is it not so? MR MHLONGO 15th of August 1992? CHAIRPERSON 1993. MR MHLONGO I was still the commander. CHAIRPERSON Could this information has come to your attention after 1993, in 1994? I'm now talking about the hit list. MR MHLONGO It was late 1992. CHAIRPERSON You see now you are able to remember. You may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you Madam Chair. Now, during your period, the period when you were still a commander, did you ever have the opportunity of speaking to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena? MR MHLONGO No. MS MOLOISANE Did you report to anybody after Bopipo or Bana Ntjolo had reported to you that Hapile had been killed and that Elsie had been injured? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS MOLOISANE To whom did you report? MR MHLONGO I reported to Bonga Khumalo. MS MOLOISANE And when was that? MR MHLONGO It was after I dismissed Bopipo. We were at a very awkward position, close to the deceased's family. CHAIRPERSON When was this? MR MHLONGO It was on a Monday and the incident happened over the week-end. CHAIRPERSON Did the incident happen on a Sunday, and you were able to report to Mr Khumalo the next day, that being a Monday? MR MHLONGO I do not know whether the incident happened on Saturday or Sunday, but I reported on Monday. MS MOLOISANE Do you know one Maletsatsi Marumo? MR MHLONGO Yes, I know her. MS MOLOISANE How do you know her? MR MHLONGO I once hid at her place. CHAIRPERSON He once hid? INTERPRETER He once used her place as a hideout. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair just before I proceed with my questions, I just want to inform the Committee that due to lateness of an hour I just want to cover the Maletsatsi incident as he was the commander then. CHAIRPERSON We noticed that. MS MOLOISANE MR MHLONGO At that time she was the supporter of the ANC and we were school mates. MS MOLOISANE And when was that when you used her home as a hideout? The year? MR MHLONGO It was early 1993. MS MOLOISANE Did this Maletsatsi belong to any political party or not? CHAIRPERSON She has just said she was a supporter of the ANC. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON We would be interested to know in which school they both attended. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair. Which school did you both attend? MR MHLONGO We were at Umpuluzi School. CHAIRPERSON In what standard were you? MR MHLONGO I was in standard six. CHAIRPERSON And in what standard was Maletsatsi? MR MHLONGO She was also in standard six. CHAIRPERSON Yes you may proceed. MS MOLOISANE MR MHLONGO It was because I was the present of Cosas at that time and she might have realised the treatment that I received from the white people. Each time they came to look for me I would run away and she told me that she had a house and I can come and stay with her. MS MOLOISANE Proceed. What happened after that incident? MR MHLONGO I lived with the comrades for quite a long time, and Maletsatsi lost control and she left us in the house, and we did not know her whereabouts. She came back after some time and she took some girls who lived around and she left with them. The disappeared for quite some time and only those girls would come back without her, and they told us then where they went to, and who Maletsatsi made them to meet. MS MOLOISANE Now after Maletsatsi had disappeared for some time did you see her again? MR MHLONGO I saw her dead. CHAIRPERSON Did you see her, or you heard that she was dead? MR MHLONGO I saw her. MS MOLOISANE Now John Radebe is seeking amnesty for the killing of Maletsatsi. Do you know perhaps under what circumstances and why as Maletsatsi killed? MR MHLONGO Yes, I know. MS MOLOISANE Tell this Committee. MR MHLONGO A decision was taken to eliminate Maletsatsi because the innocent girls were kidnapped and when they arrived at Kwamadala was, she was bossy, she would choose men for each girl. She was sort of a star, and I ended up issuing out an order that Maletsatsi be eliminated. MS MOLOISANE Was she still an ANC supporter when you issued this order? INTERPRETER The interpreters could not get the question. MS MOLOISANE Was Maletsatsi still an ANC supporter when you issued this order that she should be eliminated? MR MHLONGO No, she was no longer a supporter. MS MOLOISANE When did she fall out with the ANC? Do you know? MR MHLONGO I think I said she was a supporter. She never joined the ANC officially. MS MOLOISANE Yes, we know, so what I want to know is when did she fall out with the ANC, do you have first hand information on that? MR MHLONGO She fell out at the beginning of attendance of meetings in Kwamadala, because you would never gain entrance to Kwamadala if you were a member of the ANC. MS MOLOISANE Now, to whom did you issue this order? To whom was this order issued that Maletsatsi should be eliminated? MR MHLONGO I gave my two IC this order. He is John Radebe. CHAIRPERSON When did you issue this order to Radebe? MR MHLONGO I do not remember when, but it was in 1993. CHAIRPERSON In what capacity did you issue that order? MR MHLONGO I issued out this order as a commander, and John Radebe resided close to Maletsatsi. CHAIRPERSON And was this when Mr Radebe was a member of the Zone 12 unit which you commanded? MR MHLONGO Yes, it is during that period. CHAIRPERSON Where exactly was this order issued? That is, a place. MR MHLONGO We were in Small Farm, close to Radebe's place. CHAIRPERSON With whom were you when this order was issued? MR MHLONGO I was with John Radebe. CHAIRPERSON Was there anybody else other than you and your second in command? MR MHLONGO No. CHAIRPERSON Can you approximate again about the month in 1993 when this order was issued by you? Would that be early 93, would that be late 93? Come to our assistance. MR MHLONGO I would be misleading you if I have to mention the month. I do not remember. CHAIRPERSON But you remember that it was 93. MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON And do you know Maletsatsi died? MR MHLONGO I do not remember. CHAIRPERSON Maletsatsi died in June 1993. Does that assist you? Can you now place the approximate month when you issued the order in relation to when Maletsatsi died? She died in June '93. MR MHLONGO I do not remember, but it was before June when I issued out the order. CHAIRPERSON Are you not in a position to give us a better approximation other than saying it was before June? You are the commander, you issued the order. MR MHLONGO Thank you Chair, yes, I issued out an order and I issued out orders on a daily basis, and I was working with many people. I do not remember when it was when I ordered Radebe to eliminate Maletsatsi. CHAIRPERSON Yes, was your order a specific order? Is it not so? It was to Mr Radebe to eliminate Maletsatsi. Is that not so? We are speaking about a specific order. MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was it common practice for you as a commander to issue specific orders that involved a killing of women, particularly the ones that were once close to you, and once offered you a safe haven? MR MHLONGO These orders were not specific to, they were not directed to women. I issued out daily order regarding Imidwembe. CHAIRPERSON Yes, how many orders related to women Imidwembe, that you remember yourself issuing? MR MHLONGO More than one. CHAIRPERSON Yes, prior to June '93, how many orders had you so issued which related to women Imidwembes? MR MHLONGO Two orders. CHAIRPERSON And this is June '93? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you now in a position to remember? Are you saying this was in June 1993? MR MHLONGO Yes, it was in June 1993. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE Why did you regard Maletsatsi as an Imidwembe simply because of her visit to Kwamadala? MR LAX We've asked you time and time again not to lead the witness. Now ask him the question why, that's fine. To provide him with the answer is not fine. Do you understand? MS MOLOISANE MR LAX MS MOLOISANE Why did you regard Maletsatsi as an Imidwembe? MR MHLONGO Because she had a lot of our information, and information that could have led to our deaths as well as those of our family members. MR LAX What are you reading there Mr Mhlongo? What are you reading there? MR MHLONGO I requested a piece of paper because I wanted to note some few things. MR LAX MS MOLOISANE I ask you again, why did you regard her as an Imidwembe? MR MHLONGO Because she had a lot of our information and she was now in the camp of the killers. CHAIRPERSON What information did she have that would have been detrimental to you and members of your families? MR MHLONGO I mentioned that I slept at her place and she used to see our arms. CHAIRPERSON Yes, when did you sleep at her place? I know when you attended school together. MR MHLONGO I slept at her place in '93. CHAIRPERSON Can you recall the month? MR MHLONGO I do not remember the month. CHAIRPERSON Could it have been in August '93? MR MHLONGO No. No. CHAIRPERSON Was it at the beginning of the year in '93? MR MHLONGO Yes, it was at the beginning of the year. CHAIRPERSON Why can't you approximate, when you are always asked to estimate the time and your first response is you can't remember? You don't make an effort to even give a wide approximation. MR MHLONGO ...(intervention) MR LAX Don't talk straight into it. Keep a bit further back. That's fine. MR MHLONGO It's because I do not want to give something that is not true. I want to tell you what was happening at that time. CHAIRPERSON And that is why Ms Moloisane has asked you to give evidence. In order to be able to assist us. You are not much of an assistance if you can't tell us the month nor the year in relation to what you are testifying to. You are not much of any assistance to us. You must bear that in mind as you give your testimony. Proceed Ms Moloisane. MS MOLOISANE That is all Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, you may proceed to put questions to Mr Mhlongo. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you. MS MOLOISANE Excuse me Madam Chair, there is something that the witness has indicated that he would like to say. CHAIRPERSON What is it that you want to say Mr Mhlongo? MR MHLONGO At this moment I want to say whatever happened then, I am asking forgiveness on behalf of my unit. The situation and the present, or the then situation in politics led us to doing such things. Sorry. CHAIRPERSON You are not the one who is applying for amnesty. The applicants have already expressed their remorse in this regard. You are here to give evidence. We expect you to be of assistance, and we hope you will be of assistance, particularly in contextualising your evidence in relation to time. Thank you. Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE To your knowledge, Mr Mhlongo, on what basis were you made a commander of your unit? MR MHLONGO Because I received training from Umkhonto weSiswe. MS THABETHE You spoke about an incident, sorry when did you undergo through MK training? MR MHLONGO When I was in exile. MS THABETHE I mean when, like which year? MR MHLONGO It was in 1991. MS THABETHE With regard to the evidence that you've given, you spoke about the fact that you threw a hand grenade into a white car. Was Elsie present in that car? MR MHLONGO I do not remember whether Elsie was present in that car, but where Hapile was, Elsie would be there too. CHAIRPERSON Don't generalise Mr Mhlongo. Either you saw Elsie on that day, or you didn't see her. We don't want your speculation, we want what you saw and not what you thought because of what had previously happened, did you see Elsie on that day or didn't you see her? MR MHLONGO I did not see her. MS THABETHE Are you aware of any enquiry that took place regarding Hapile Ndumo and Elsie in your ANC offices? MR MHLONGO I do not understand your question. MS THABETHE Are you aware of any enquiry that took place with regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena in your ANC offices? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS THABETHE Were you present at that enquiry? MR MHLONGO I was not present. MS THABETHE So what information did you have about the said enquiry? MR MHLONGO When the enquiry was made I was not present. I was not involved at all but it happened that I came into contact with those enquiries. MS THABETHE My question is, Mr Mhlongo, you have said that you only were aware of such an enquiry having taken place. Was there any information relayed to you about the said enquiry, as to what was happening there, and what findings were made there with regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie? MR MHLONGO I have mentioned already that before many things could be done a general order was issued out. Now I came to know that they were implicated. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that prior to the enquiry that we have already heard evidence both from Mr Mkwanazi and Mr Radebe, as well as the witnesses we have called to support their application, Mr Ngiba and Mr Khumalo, you are saying that a general order was issued before that enquiry was held. Is that what you are saying? MR MHLONGO That is not what I am telling you. CHAIRPERSON Tell us then what you want to tell us. MR MHLONGO I am saying the general order was issued out after my commander had met with the underground structure that was investigating this incident. Now I got out of the unit and found the information myself. MR LAX Sorry, can I just interpose here. Are you saying that your commander told you that he had met with his underground structures, who had made an investigation, and that after that you issued the general order? CHAIRPERSON And when was that? MR MHLONGO It was in 1992. CHAIRPERSON Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Mhlongo is it your evidence today then, that you did not, or you were not informed of the findings of that enquiry regarding Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS THABETHE Well, my instructions, Mr Mhlongo, are that they were found not to be guilty of having been spies in that enquiry. What is your comment to that? MR MHLONGO They were not found guilty where? MS THABETHE At the enquiry which took place in the ANC offices, and which enquiry you have just testified that you did not have information of it's findings. CHAIRPERSON Please repeat your question, I didn't get it because something distracted me. MS THABETHE I was explaining to Mr Mhlongo, he was asking me a question which enquiry, so I was explaining which enquiry. CHAIRPERSON Which enquiry did you say you were referring to? MS THABETHE I said I was referring to the enquiry where Hapile Ndumo and Elsie were called, in March 1992, which enquiry Mr Mhlongo said he was not aware of its findings. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlongo do you agree with the version that has been given by Ms Mokoena? That an enquiry that was intended to investigate some allegations that had been levelled against Ms Mokoena and other ladies, some of whom included herself and Ms Ndumo, was held in March '92. That's her version. We have also heard a different version from the applicants that the enquiry was held in June 1992. Are you in a position to assist us in that regard? Do you know when this enquiry was held? Was that in March or in June? MR MHLONGO Chairperson, my apologies, which enquiries are you referring to now? The enquiries about Hapile and Elsie, I was not present. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear about that enquiry which was held at a garage where Mr Hlombai was a chairperson of the ANC youth league? MR MHLONGO Yes. I heard about it. I further heard that they were disciplined. CHAIRPERSON Who told you about the enquiry? MR MHLONGO It was comrade Stanley. CHAIRPERSON Is it the one who told you that they also imposed a punishment? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR MHLONGO It was a few weeks after my entrance into the country. CHAIRPERSON Now you are saying you came back in February 1992. So that would actually take you to between January and beginning of February 1992. Am I correct? Oh, a few weeks after your entry. That would take you to March? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you would actually agree with the version given by Ms Mokoena that the enquiry was held in March 1992? MR MHLONGO I was not present when the enquiry was held, so therefore I would not agree or disagree. I do not know when it was held. CHAIRPERSON But you were informed by comrade Stanley a few weeks after your entry, and your entry was in February. It couldn't have been a few months after your entry. MR MHLONGO Yes, it was a few weeks after my entry, so. CHAIRPERSON You are in no position to deny, if that is your evidence. Proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Would you say then Mr Mhlongo, that that thorough investigation that you alleged that you did happened after this enquiry, or before this enquiry took place? MR MHLONGO Yes, my investigation was conducted after the enquiry. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe are you not referring to a general order. Were you referring to his specific orders? MS THABETHE I was referring to the fact that he said he did a thorough investigation before issuing an order. So my question to him was the thorough investigation done after the enquiry had been done, or before. CHAIRPERSON When did you conduct your own enquiry? MR MHLONGO After they had been given lashes, and before they were killed. CHAIRPERSON And what did you own enquiry entail? MR MHLONGO I realised that they were supposed to be killed. They were a poison within the community, and because of what they were doing in town, and they got into Zone 12 at night using cars. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON You call that an investigation? You are a trained operative. You call that an investigation? Is that what you seriously mean by an investigation? MR MHLONGO Chairperson, I already told you that I was not investigating at that time. It so happened, it incidentally happened, that I saw that. It was part of information. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Chairperson, I repeat ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There is no translation coming through. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON I thought he was talking and you are not translating. MR MHLONGO As I have mentioned that I investigated, but I could not get anything out of this investigation, and the final proof was to see them and there were no investigations necessary just because I had seen them. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Chairperson, when I saw them, seeing them was enough. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO I would not respond to that. CHAIRPERSON Why not? Why are you unable to know whether you said that or not? MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO I do not know why. I do not know what causes this. I had explained. CHAIRPERSON What is it that you had explained? Because this is the explanation I am seeking. MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Thank you, Madam Chair. With regard to the murder of Maletsatsi, Mr Mhlongo, are you saying you were a unit commander? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS THABETHE Do you know a comrade by the name of Kennel Powells Malokwane? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS THABETHE Did he belong to any political organisation? MR MHLONGO Yes. MS THABETHE Which one? MR MHLONGO ANC youth league. MS THABETHE Was he a member of an SDU? MR MHLONGO He was the commissar of Umkhonto weSiswe. MS THABETHE Did he work with SDUs as a commissar of Umkhonto weSiswe? MR MHLONGO I do not know. He was in his district. MS THABETHE Which district are you talking about? MR MHLONGO He was under Small Farm District. MS THABETHE MR MHLONGO I do not understand your question. MS THABETHE MR MHLONGO I do not know. MS THABETHE Were you present when Maletsatsi was killed? MR MHLONGO I was not present. MS THABETHE Did you have any information of who, besides Mr John Radebe, was present when Maletsatsi was killed? MR MHLONGO MS THABETHE MR MHLONGO What I was told is that the community of Small Farm had gathered at the scene. MS THABETHE Do you know how she was killed? MR MHLONGO I know that she was shot. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. Ms Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mhlongo, when you, after you had thrown the hand grenade into this white car, who did you tell about it? To whom did you mention this incident? MR MHLONGO I told my unit, that was after the vehicle sped off. I told them the description of the car. I told them that I threw a hand grenade inside the car, it was thrown out, and the car sped of. ADV BOSMAN Did you tell them whom you saw in the car? MR MHLONGO Yes, I told them. ADV BOSMAN Did you mention Hapile to them? MR MHLONGO Yes, I told them, because she is the person I clearly saw. ADV BOSMAN MR MHLONGO I do not know why they did not mention it, but this the information they had. ADV BOSMAN Did you tell them about the incident when you saw Hapile and Elsie in town harassing the other people? MR MHLONGO Yes, I told them. ADV BOSMAN MR MHLONGO I do not know why they forgot to mention that. So many things happened. They got involved in so many things, and I have told them so many things. ADV BOSMAN But do you agree that these two incidents were the most important in you deciding that they should be killed? MR MHLONGO Yes, I agree. ADV BOSMAN When you met with Mr Bonga Khumalo after the incident, and you reported to him, did you tell him what the, everything that had been conveyed to you by the defendant? MR MHLONGO I did not tell him everything, because he was on the run. Our position was very awkward. We were close to the deceased family, so we could not talk freely. ADV BOSMAN MR MHLONGO I do not understand your question. ADV BOSMAN Did you tell him anything about confessions people had made? MR MHLONGO I did not tell him. I only told him that one of them is dead and the other one survived, and we separated. ADV BOSMAN So if I tell you that Mr Khumalo says that you told him that Elsie confessed, or Hapile rather had confessed, to being a spy for the IFP would you say you did not tell him that? MR MHLONGO The issue of confession was not mentioned during the reporting. When we met the second time, that was when I gave him a full report. He might have mixed the two issues. ADV BOSMAN Why did you not lead this confession when I asked you whether you had told him anything about confessions? Why did you not remember that you had told him about confessions at another stage? MR MHLONGO I did not mention it because I thought you were asking me about the first time we met. That is why I did not mention it. ADV BOSMAN And it would appear to me as though you had given two orders for the killing of Hapile and Elsie. Is that correct? MR MHLONGO That is correct. ADV BOSMAN You gave the one order after the grenade had been thrown into the car, is that right? MR MHLONGO That is correct. ADV BOSMAN And why was it then necessary to issue a second order in exactly the same terms? MR MHLONGO Because the, my soldiers, were getting very lazy and I wanted to remind them that they had taken an oath. ADV BOSMAN And the first order, had you given that before the general order was issued, or after? MR MHLONGO After the general order. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX Mr Mhlongo, you told us that Mr Radebe joined your unit after June, you said after he completed his training, which was in June, is that right? June 1993? MR MHLONGO He joined my unit before unit. He went for a course and came back and started operating in June. MR LAX Yes, when did he join your unit? MR MHLONGO When did he join the unit to operate, or what are you referring to? I do not get your question. MR LAX MR MHLONGO Yes, that is correct. MR LAX So then why are you arguing with me when I say to you and ask you whether he started with your unit in June or just after June? You said no he joined much earlier. MR MHLONGO I did not get your question, but now I have it. MR LAX He started just after June sometime, after his training, correct? MR MHLONGO He arrived in June from the training. MR LAX So he must have joined your unit just before that, probably in July? MR MHLONGO In June. MR LAX I beg your pardon, probably in May. Just before June, just before he went for his training. MR MHLONGO Yes. MR LAX Well you see his evidence to us was that he joined your unit late 1992, early 1993, and he was already at that time 2IC. Are you making a mistake, or is he maybe making a mistake? MR MHLONGO He made a mistake. He became my 2IC after he went for a crash course. MR LAX Now this crash course was a specialised training, was it? MR MHLONGO It was. MR LAX What did it consist of? MR MHLONGO There was a political class, there was a firearm class. MR LAX Yes. MR MHLONGO There were rules on attack. MR LAX So it was a full training as a commando? MR MHLONGO No. MR LAX Was it just a full training as an SDU member? MR MHLONGO Yes. MR LAX MR MHLONGO It was not an orientation course. MR LAX MR MHLONGO He made a mistake, because we dealt with him physically. MR LAX What do you mean you dealt with him physically? MR MHLONGO He was aware that it was a training, it was not just an orientation. MR LAX Now, you told us that there was a second briefing that you gave Bonga Khumalo. A much fuller briefing. When did that happen? MR MHLONGO MR LAX MR MHLONGO It was two months later, after the incident. MR LAX So that would have been in October 1993? MR MHLONGO I would say so, yes. MR LAX And who was present at this briefing that you gave him? MR MHLONGO There was no-one, it was myself and him. MR LAX MR MHLONGO MR LAX What did you tell him at that second briefing? I want you to try and remember very carefully what you told him. MR MHLONGO I told him that my soldiers were responsible for the death of Hapile, and Elsie survived, and I told him that it was a blunder that Elsie survived, and after, upon realising that they made a mistake by letting Elsie survive they also went under cover, so it was upon my shoulders to call a gathering and meet with them. MR LAX Who is them? MR MHLONGO MR LAX And when did you meet with them? MR MHLONGO I met with them, it was in 1994. MR LAX MR MHLONGO I met with Bonga in October of 1993, I am not mistake, and as a unit commander I was accounting, telling him that the people responsible for such an act were under, were in my unit. And I was accounting on their behalf because they had, they were not present. MR LAX The point is, you went on to explain that you knew what they had told, you were able to report because you had met with these guys and they had explained to you what happened. That was your evidence. And then when I asked you when did you meet with them, you said it was in 1994. Do you understand my puzzlement with you? MR MHLONGO Chairperson, my apologies. I said the person who came to report to me was Bopipo, not the people who committed the act. The act was committed by Mkhwanazi and Radebe, but the person who was with them came to report to me and he is Bopipo. MR LAX MR MHLONGO Yes. MR LAX MR MHLONGO Yes. MR LAX MR MHLONGO It was spread all over that before they died they had confessed, so he knew it himself. MR LAX MR MHLONGO I told him about that. MR LAX Well why then did you say that the only thing that you told him was what you had told me before I mentioned the confession? MR MHLONGO MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now you have testified earlier on that you also conducted your own investigation about the activities of Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena, and came to the same conclusion, that they indeed were Imidwembe. Did I understand your evidence correct in that aspect? MR MHLONGO Yes. That was my evidence. CHAIRPERSON Now did you, apart from conducting your own investigation, refer the matter of the two ladies to anyone within the MK structure, and to be precise, to an underground structure of the MK? MR MHLONGO No. CHAIRPERSON Now since he was unable to shed more light about this, we are now looking to you as the commander of the unit concerned to tell us whether these allegations were referred to the underground structure at all, and if so, to whom, and if not, why they were not so referred, when Mr Khumalo has made us to believe that it was an important requirement before any action be taken concerning Imidwembe. MR MHLONGO Mr Khumalo testified to the effect that there was an under structure, and I did not know who it consisted of. Those people were underground, they were hidden, but some people knew them, and some of us did not. CHAIRPERSON We appear not to be on - does he want a break? MS THABETHE He has just indicated that. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, Ms Moloisane, may I draw your attention to the fact that whilst the witness is being questioned, you may not speak to him. That is the rule of thumb. It would be unethical for you to speak to him. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair I was not speaking about the contents of the questioning. CHAIRPERSON Precisely because any person who sees you speaking to your witness would not know the content of your discussion, it is always wise and more than advisable for Counsel not to be near the witness who is being questioned. You are not supposed to be near that witness because of public perception. It is part of our public administrative law. MS MOLOISANE I am aware of that Madam Chair, and even in the other Courts I know it happens that way. CHAIRPERSON So it is not the content of the discussion, it is the perception that you are seen speaking to a witness who is being questioned, which is the crux of the problem. Mr Mhlongo, I will repeat what I put to you before we took a short adjournment. Yesterday Mr Bonga Khumalo who was your general commander, advises that the cornerstone rule of your structure, which was put there for the integrity of your organisation, was that you as commanders could not act upon any information concerning allegations of persons who were referred to as Imidwembe, without verifying those allegations with your underground structures of MK. Are you aware of that rule as a commander? MR MHLONGO Yes, I was aware. CHAIRPERSON Yes. In this regard, did you apply that rule? MR MHLONGO Yes, I applied the rules. CHAIRPERSON To whom did you refer the information which you had about Ms Hapile and Ms Ndumo within the underground structures of MK? MR MHLONGO I did not have the right to meet with the underground structure before I could meet with my commander. My commander had contact with the underground structure, not me. CHAIRPERSON Is it your evidence therefore that you relayed the information to Mr Khumalo and requested him as your general commander to take it to your underground structures for verification? MR MHLONGO I did not ask him to go to the underground structure, that was his duty. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO He was not wrong, he just made a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Why, are you in his mind to say whether he is wrong or he has made a mistake? Was it not your function to verify? MR MHLONGO It was not my function. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying it was the function of the general commander? MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON And in this case are you aware whether Mr Bonga verified? MR MHLONGO I do not have knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Now whilst I was still trying to peruse my notes to find out exactly what Mr Khumalo said in this, in this regard, it has now been drawn to my attention by a member of my Committee, that Mr Khumalo said it was your function to verify and that you reported to him that you had verified with the underground structures of MK before, before this incident occurred, and that you told him so after Ms Ndumo had been killed. Was he lying when he gave us that evidence? MR MHLONGO That is not correct. As the unit commander, I was supposed to make sure whether it was true, and I had to give the general commander a report back, and he was supposed to move and pass it on to the underground structure, and the underground structure was supposed to then verify. CHAIRPERSON So you are saying that he lied when he gave that evidence. Yes or no. CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO I did not verify with the underground structure. I did it alone. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO I did not say that to him. CHAIRPERSON So he is lying. MR MHLONGO Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Yes, I knew that there was verification needed. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO Elsie was not present during the incident of the car, but she got involved in the other things, that why I said they should be killed. She got implicated somewhere. CHAIRPERSON When did she get implicated somewhere? How long after you had identified Hapile Ndumo in the company of the two gentlemen whom you regarded as IFP members? MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know that incident. That happened quite a long time after because your evidence was that they disappeared thereafter for a long, long time. Is it not so? That was your evidence. And the next time you saw them was when they were in town in the company of a group of people that you identified to us. You named Oupa Smith, you named Dondo, you named Dada, and a number of people. But that happened a long time after the grenade incident. Is it not so? MR MHLONGO That is so. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO I included Elsie in the killing because the two of them disappeared, and where Hapile was Elsie was found. In other words, she was an obstacle too. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now how can you say Elsie had disappeared a long time before? How can you say that? When I asked you, you said this incident happened around June 1992. I asked you that question specifically and that was your response. You said around June 1992, and later said it must have been before June 1992. The record will bear me out. Was it not a mistake to have included Elsie in your order, your initial orders which you issued immediately, and to be precise, a day after you had identified only Hapile Ndumo amongst alleged IFP members in the car? MR MHLONGO No. I did not. CHAIRPERSON On what basis was she included? Your evidence is that she was not there, and you enquiries were only prompted by that particular incident. This is your evidence. You only started investigating this matter after the hand grenade incident, which is the incident that occurred at the entrance of LTA in Zone 12 Extension. MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON There is no cause for you to be scared. You may proceed Mr Mhlango. The general order was issued, you were still saying, the death sentence? MR MHLONGO Yes. The general commander had issued out a general order already, and after throwing a grenade into the car and it was thrown out of the car I repeated the order. I said Hapile and Elsie should be killed. CHAIRPERSON Do you know when the general order was issued? MR MHLONGO It was given to the unit commanders. CHAIRPERSON When? MR MHLONGO I do not remember the day, but I was after the proper establishment of the units. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure that it was immediately after the proper establishment of the unit? MR MHLONGO I am sure. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO I do not understand. CHAIRPERSON Is it not a fact that Mr Bonga Khumalo became a general commander in June 1992? MR MHLONGO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now that being so you should be able to give us an indication when a general order was issued by him. MR MHLONGO After he became the general commander. In those few days after he became the general commander the general order was issued out. CHAIRPERSON Was it in the month of June? MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON If Mr Khumalo says after June, would he be correct? MR MHLONGO I am not quite sure. CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON Your evidence is it must have been around June. MR MHLONGO CHAIRPERSON MR MHLONGO I do not remember. CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions, just switch off your microphone. Emanating from the questions from the Panel do you think there is any need for re-examination. MS MOLOISANE I have no re-examination Madam Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mhlongo you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE Madam Chair I think that concludes the incident of Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, which leaves us with the incident of Maletsatsi. RECALL OF JOHN RADEBE NEW INCIDENT RE MALETSATSI CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON We have been assured in Chambers that it is a fairly short incident. Maybe we can dispose of this incident today. MS MOLOISANE I intend calling him right now. CHAIRPERSON Ms Moloisane you may proceed to lead his evidence in chief. JOHN RADEBE (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE Mr Radebe you have applied for amnesty in respect of the murder of Ms Maletsatsi Marumo. Is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE And it is common cause that you killed the said Maletsatsi Marumo on the 14th of June 1993. Is that also correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE Now will you please tell this Committee what you, or what led to the killing of the said Maletsatsi Marumo? MR RADEBE "It was in early 1992 or late 1992, I would not remember the month. Maletsatsi was our comrade in the ANC youth league, she was supporting very well. She was a pupil at Mpuluzi secondary school. It happened that while she was still a pupil her father passed away. After the passing away of her father her mother left her. She went to look for another place at Grassmere. After they left, Maletsatsi got involved in the issues regarding comradeship where she was with us most of the times. We realised that she was financially struggling, and as comrades we went to her school and we intervened. We told the principal that Maletsatsi, we requested that she pays, we requested the principal not to let her pay the school fees because she was left alone, and this was accepted. We then went to the owner of the place because she lived in a shack, she was a tenant, and we requested that the R20 rent that she was supposed to pay every month be scratched. They understood that. Comrade Maletsatsi became very active in our struggle as the ANC youth. After some time we discovered that she was now living in Vereeniging. She went to town, came back to the township, and after some time it was rumoured that she was involved with Getisi and others. That was during the time when Getisi and his people began the killing of people. We asked comrade Maletsatsi about this rumour and we discovered that she did not know it, and we just left it there. After quite some time some girls from the youth league, who were involved in the struggle, and just to mention a few, Makezasa, Gambu, Mkhwanazi, Gogo and Ellen, it was quite a group of girls who supported our organisation. We got information that these girls also were getting, were associated with Getisi and his group. One day I was travelling, I was moving from Zone 12 and the the comrades from Small Farms informed me that the Gogo and them were kidnapped from town and they were assaulted." MS MOLOISANE When was this? MR RADEBE I think all these happened in 1993. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) Try and estimate a date Ms Moloisane. It will assist us greatly. To speak of the year, it really doesn't come to our assistance. MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you, Madam Chair. Just be brief Mr Radebe. MR RADEBE "I think it was early 19, late 1992 or early 1993. Somewhere around there. The comrades informed me that they assaulted Gogo and them, yes, I was informed and I came to know that those girls were assaulted. When this group was assaulted Maletsatsi was not present, and she disappeared into town and she lived at Kwamadala Hostel. There is a girl called Makazasa Gambu. I also heard that she was involved with them. One day we went to Makazasa's home to ask her questions, and she was not telling us the truth, but some people confirmed that they saw her among a group of Inkatha members in town. There was no information received out of her, and we left her. We went to Mandlela's home to look for her. We could not find her. She was now permanently living in town. We were using Maletsatsi's place as a place of our hiding, because the police could not even suspect that a place belonging to a girl could be used to hide things. One day it was at night when the whites came, they did not find us because we heard the sounds of their cars and we ran away. The next day the neighbours told us that is was Maletsatsi in the company of the boers. It was evident for us that what we heard was true, because here she was with the police. There were two ladies Thandi and, Thandi Dlamini and Naniki Tshabalala. One day when they went to town Maletsatsi and her gang took them to a place called Steel Park and they were assaulted and they were locked inside a house. They managed to escape." MS MOLOISANE Is that what you were told by Thandi and Naniki? MR RADEBE Yes, on their return. I think we heard it being spoke in the township, but as comrades we went to them to get first hand information. There was a certain comrade called Kennel. "One day, I do not remember where we came from, but it was in the morning at about 4 o'clock, I think we were from Zone 7, we met at a certain place and he informed all the comrades. He said, '..comrades, we had such comrades in the organisation and they removed themselves from the organisation and those comrades are now living with comrades.' And he informed us that '...do you see one of our comrades had just been shot last week. It was close to the shops. Close to Maletsatsi's home.'' Before that there was a certain comrade called Moscow, he's now in the South African National Defence Force. At that time he was the chairperson of Cosas in Mpuluzi. He addressed this issue with the students. He said '...comrades we must know from now that comrade Maletsatsi ... and he mentioned others, he said '...they now reside in town, they are members of, they are with the IFP.' Now it was known in the whole township that Maletsatsi is not to be seen. Because some of the girls in the organisation were complaining that they had been to Kwamadala, they had been inside, but they did not go voluntarily, they were lured. There were new shops that were opened in Vereeniging. The first one Crystal Palace, or it's called American Palace, and Giddys. Maletsatsi did not have money, but she managed to give these girls a lot of money and take them to town knowing exactly who they were going to meet. Now when these girls came out of Kwamadala they informed us, they said '...comrades, we come from such and such a place. It was not intentionally. Maletsatsi is very free right in there, she is the leader, and she is in front of all the, all the assaults taking place in town.'" MS MOLOISANE Who are those girls who gave you this report? MR RADEBE The first one is Gogo, Ellen, I personally spoke to Makazasa Gambu. And she told me about Kwamadala, and she described how Maletsatsi lived in there with Getisi, Dondo, Hanta Ndlovu, and many of the IFP men. After comrade Kennel spread this message of Maletsatsi's killing I ...(intervention). MR LAX Sorry, sorry sir. What message about Maletsatsi's killing? You haven't told us anything about such a message. Would you please just .. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you're still talking about comrade Moscow. MR RADEBE I said Moscow informed us that Maletsatsi was no longer a member of the organisation, and there was no meeting that Maletsatsi would attend, and that Maletsatsi was now living in town with Getisi. He was addressing the pupils and those of us who were present at the school. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's right. You are now mentioning comrade Paulus as if you've already given evidence about him. You have not yet given anything concerning Mr Paulus, comrade Kennel Paulus. MS MOLOISANE Who is this comrade Kennel Paulus? MR RADEBE He was a member of Umkhonto weSiswe. MS MOLOISANE Is it Kennel Paulus Malekwane? Is it the same person? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MOLOISANE Continue. What message about Maletsatsi's killing did he give you? MR RADEBE I think it was in the morning, 4 o'clock, he said "...comrades you must know from now that Maletsatsi lives in such a place and they are assaulting people." He said, "...Maletsatsi takes our comrades who happen to be her friends and she takes them to Inkatha." He said, "...comrades she must be killed." That's all. I then left to go and join the unit in Zone 12, that is comrade Mabusa's unit. ...(intervention) MS MOLOISANE Just before you proceed. When was that when comrade Kennel gave you this message? MR RADEBE I'm going to make a big mistake if I say I remember when, but it was in 1993, before May. MS MOLOISANE Yes, proceed. MR RADEBE I went to join comrade Mabusa's unit because we were based together at Maletsatsi's place. If it was difficult in the other side comrades would run to the other side. We then discussed and realised that Maletsatsi's issue was very, Maletsatsi was dangerous, and the decision that she must be killed because she was the most dangerous amongst all, because she participated in a lot of activities of the ANC. She ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON May I interpose? You then discussed, who are you referring to when you say we then discussed about the Maletsatsi issue? MR RADEBE We were discussing the issue, her involvement in town. MR LAX The question was who was we? Who were you discussing this with? Whose the we? MR RADEBE Comrade Mabusa, comrade Godfrey, and other comrades who belonged to the unit. We discussed Maletsatsi's activities in town. Comrade Mabusa issued out an order. He said to me "...Umkhonto, should you meet her," because even if I hid somewhere I was supposed to go back to the house and take a bath, that's how my order came out, he said I should shoot her. Indeed one day when we were at comrade Sipho Tshabalala's home, we were just sitting outside. If I remember well we had a problem with a gun and we were fixing it. I think this boy Zakhele Shoba who came to us was ten, if not twelve years old then. On his arrival he told us that Thandi sent him to call us to her place, and they needed us to bring the material. We comprehended what the material was. Material referred to something like a firearm. We then left for Thandi's place. The Small Farm office was very far. Now we used Thandi's home because it was the nearest to us and we would put some benches outside, sit and have our gatherings. When I arrived at Thandi's house, it was full of comrades. Majiga was there, comrade Yebohang Gambu was there, yes, Nchanyana was also there. I asked a question, "...comrades, where did you get this wanted person?" They said she was travelling in a train ...(intervention) MS MOLOISANE Who are you referring to? MR RADEBE I was referring to Maletsatsi Marumo. MS MOLOISANE Was she present amongst the comrades there? MR RADEBE "She was seated with the comrades inside. I asked them, '...comrades, where did you get her?' They said, '...in the train.' Who found her, they explained. The comrades assumed she was going to her mother, and when the train was at Stratford station, that's where they took her out of the train by force. They took a taxi from Orange Farm to Small Farm. That was the information given to me. I was with comrade Sipho Tshabalala at that time, and I asked them. There was a firearm that we used to carry, we used to call it Boito. Now I had Boito with me, but it was hidden under a lumber jacket, because I was wearing a lumber jacket. There was only one round inside. And I said to them, '...comrades, do you know that the police can arrive at any moment and disturb you because you are in a big group?' We then left with her. We were taking her to Reverend King's house, that's where we had an ANC office. We were a group of comrades. Comrade Majiga was holding her in his hand and I was following from behind together with comrade Sipho, and I recalled that, yes, the police are troubling us in this area, I don't need any information from Maletsatsi. It was enough, the information that we had about Maletsatsi was enough, that she was Imidwembe, and an order had been issued out. What order was I waiting for? That's where I pulled out Boito from underneath the lumber jacket. I shot her from behind, and she fell, and I said to comrades, '...let us leave and go to Zone 12.' We went to Zone 12 and we slept over there. The next morning we came back to see, to check as to what happened. When we arrived there, Maletsatsi's body was still there from the previous night. We passed and I met comrade Mandla Malindi. Comrade Mandla Malindi said to us, '...comrades, a certain comrade from Zone 12 arrived.' I think he mentioned his name but I've forgotten the name. He said that comrade stabbed Maletsatsi with a knife. That's how Maletsatsi's case ended." MS MOLOISANE Now you said Maletsatsi knew a lot about the ANC. Was there anything wrong if she knew a lot about it? MR RADEBE There was nothing wrong. MS MOLOISANE And you said an order that she be killed was issued because she knew a lot. Can you just elaborate on that? MR RADEBE When I said she knew a lot, I was saying she knew our activities. Now that she was in that place we were going to be an easy target. Our place of hiding was going to be attacked by the police, and our stuff was going to be confiscated. We used places such as the churches, there's something we called DLB. It was a place where we would put our stuff. Now we realised that we were going to lose a lot of things. MS MOLOISANE Now from what you are saying, are you implying that you were worried that she would impart the information to the other side? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MS MOLOISANE I have no further questions, Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Moloisane. Ms Thabethe do you have any cross-examination? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Yes, Madam Chair. Mr Radebe besides the evidence that you have given today, do you still maintain what you had written in your affidavit, on pages 147 and 148 of the bundle? MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE In that affidavit, you stated that one of the people you were with when you hunted for Maletsatsi, Page 128 paragraph 6, was Bonga Khumalo, and when Bonga Khumalo was asked, was questioned yesterday about his presence when you were hunting for Maletsatsi, he denied it. What is your response to his denial? MR RADEBE Yes. He disagreed correctly. It's true. MS THABETHE What is true? The fact that he denied? MR RADEBE When he says he was not present when Maletsatsi was hunted. MS THABETHE So can you explain why you included his name? MR RADEBE The person who came to the prison to take this statement I think the names that I mentioned to him were more than the names that he has written down. Many times when we were hunting for someone we would be many, and comrade Bonga Khumalo would ultimately receive such information. I think that's how it came to his knowledge. MS THABETHE But right now, just before this, I asked you whether you still maintain what you had said in this affidavit, and you said yes. So are you changing your statement now? MR RADEBE Can I inform ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Radebe. Can we observe some rules of decency. ...(indistinct), this is our Evidence Leader. Please try and be polite. I can see that there has not been any observance of rules of decency. It's getting into my nerves. MR RADEBE The Committee should actually forgive me, I am not a Mosotho, I'm a Zulu, and I'm trying my best to speak in Sotho. Now if I make mistakes, please Committee forgive me. ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON If that is so, speak in Zulu. We have translators who will translate what you are saying in Zulu. Even in Zulu, don't say this woman. Her name is Ms Thabethe or just refer to her as Evidence Leader. MR RADEBE My apologies. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to give your evidence in Zulu? MR RADEBE I do not prefer Zulu. CHAIRPERSON You said now the reason why you are making such mistakes which borders on indecency is because you are Sotho speaking but Zulu. MR RADEBE That is correct, but I'm saying I don't like Zulu. I only speak Zulu when I am at home. But the language that I communicate easily with is Sotho. CHAIRPERSON Just don't make that mistake again, and don't give, I think the reason that you have advanced, it's uncalled for. MR RADEBE I promise. MS THABETHE Can you then Mr Radebe explain why, when I asked you if you still adhere to the statement, you said yes, if there are things contained in the statement that you don't agree with? MR RADEBE Maybe the mistake came from the statement taker, or I must have put it differently and the statement taker did not write it down the way I put it to him or her. MR LAX Mr Radebe, this statement has been read to you by your lawyer, is that right? MR RADEBE I am seeing the statement now. MR LAX You saw the statement the last time you testified. You confirmed it had been read to you. It's the same statement. MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct, even after I gave my statement it was read to me. MR LAX So, it's nothing unusual, you were asked if you confirmed the contents of that statement and whether you still stood by it, and you confirmed that. Correct? MR RADEBE Correct. MR LAX Well let's not have any weak excuses then, please. MS THABETHE In your evidence you have stated that besides Kennel Malekwani, Mr Khumalo also gave you, sorry not Mr Khumalo, Mr Mabusa Ndlovu also gave you an order. Is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. "...during 1993 from Zone 12 Sebokeng, Sebokeng were experiencing a similar problem that we had had. We were informed by Mamuso Mhlongo." My question is why didn't you highlight it, the fact that he had given you orders to kill Maletsatsi as well? Especially after you had highlighted the fact that he spoke to you about having experienced a similar problem in Zone 12 at Sebokeng. MR RADEBE Why I did not mention Mabusa is because I heard this from Kennel. CHAIRPERSON So you were in fact instructed, ordered by Kennel and not Mabusa. MR RADEBE It's Mabusa. Kennel's order was, we were many when he informed us. I would say it's an order because he was informing the comrades who were present that morning. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't Kennel advising students? MR RADEBE ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON Didn't he give you a message, that Ms Maletsatsi was now staying with the IFP? MR RADEBE Did I hear you correct? Your question started with pupils. CHAIRPERSON No, I have now rephrased my question. Did Paulus not tell you that? Did he not say that Maletsatsi was now part of a group that were assaulting people, and that she was now taking her friends who were your comrades, to IFP, and that she must killed. That is what I wrote in my notes. MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a five minute adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Radebe what was the political affiliation of Thandi Dlamini? MR RADEBE She was a member of the women's league. MS THABETHE Were you in constant communication with her, as members of the SDU? MR RADEBE If there was something urgent, it was possible to meet her. MS THABETHE Why I'm asking this question, it's because maybe before I come to that, did you know Makasas Gampu very well? MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE What political affiliation was she? MR RADEBE She was a supporter of the ANC. MS THABETHE Did you have an opportunity to read her statement which we are also in possession of? From page 185 to 188. The typed version. Did you get an opportunity to look at it? MR RADEBE Yes MS THABETHE What is your comment to the fact that it appears from Ms, from her statement that Maletsatsi, Makasas, and the other girls that you had suspected to be in associated with the IFP, were actually kidnapped by the IFP, and not that they had gone to the hostel out of their own free will? MR RADEBE I dispute what is in Makasas statement. She doesn't say Maletsatsi was, Maletsatsi and her friends were kidnapped. MS THABETHE Are you saying she didn't say it, or you dispute the fact that she, they were kidnapped. MR RADEBE I'm saying she is not saying in her statement that Maletsatsi was kidnapped, no. Maletsatsi was helping them. MS THABETHE Was helping them, who? Who is them? MR RADEBE She was assisting Dondo and Dada and other members of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON It will be better maybe Ms Thabethe to facilitate progress that you refer Mr Radebe to specific paragraphs and then put your questions. MS THABETHE Mr Radebe before I refer you to the specific paragraph, who do you understand that, according to your understanding, who was kidnapped by the IFP people? MR RADEBE I would say the IFP people kidnapped girls from the township. MS THABETHE Maybe then I should you refer you to paragraph 5 of Makasas Gambu's statement, where she says that, I'll start, she says "...Ndondo came back to us and spoke to Maletsatsi and asked her to tell us that they have a car and they can take us back home." She says: "...I refused to accept the offer. The other two came. They asked us the same question. I refused. They then suggested that we go outside because it was noisy inside." Okay, further on down, in paragraph 6, she says, "...They then spoke to us again and asked us to get into the car. I refused to get into the car, and Panda, who was among these three guys left me and got into the car. We left to a certain house. They told us this is where they keep their weapons, etc. etc." Do you have any knowledge about this? MR RADEBE That's, this is Makasas' statement. I see it in her statement. MS THABETHE Sorry, I missed that. You? MR RADEBE I see it in her statement. MR LAX Ms Thabethe sorry, before you go any further with this line of questioning. I've reread these sections. There's nothing in these sections that suggests Maletsatsi was abducted. MS THABETHE I agree Mr Lax, but if you read further on, Makasas was also assaulted, or she claims in her statement that she was assaulted by the applicant, so that's where I'm getting to. MR LAX You see the issue is that, the issue here is Makasas may have been abducted, that's patently clear from the statement. You put it to the witness that Maletsatsi was abducted along with them. And it's that area that I'm concerned about, because the statement doesn't say that. So maybe you just want to change your question, or put it in a different way, or whatever. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Lax. Mr Radebe I would like to withdraw the fact that Maletsatsi was kidnapped since it doesn't say so in Makasas' statement, but would you agree with me that Makasas was kidnapped on the said day? MR RADEBE I agree. She is saying it. MS THABETHE Before you actually read about it, did you know about this information before? MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE From where? MR RADEBE From her. She told us, and at that moment we already knew MS THABETHE But according to her statement, Mr Radebe, you had visited her and you assaulted her. Why did you assault her? MR RADEBE Did I assault him as John Radebe or did we assault her? MS THABETHE According to her statement on page 188, paragraph 19, she states that "...I heard Mabusa or Bamajiga and John Radebe looking for me. They came," She says: "...they came home at night and they assault me with the butt of a gun." So they includes you. I would like you to explain whether do you know anything about this, was she assaulted? MR RADEBE Yes, I agree. MS THABETHE Do you agree that she was assaulted? MR RADEBE I agree. MS THABETHE Why was she assaulted? MR RADEBE There are many ways that one can use to get information out of a person. It will only depend on the co-operation of a person involved whether he or she is prepared to give information. MR LAX The question was, when was she assaulted? MS THABETHE Why? Why? MR LAX I beg your pardon, I thought you said when. Humble apologies. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that the reason why you assaulted her was to extract information? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON After you knew that she had been to the hostel? MR RADEBE I think that was after that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you already knew that she had been to the hostel. That appears ...(intervention) MR RADEBE And that she was kidnapped. CHAIRPERSON And that appears from your statement, your affidavit, as from page 14 ...(intervention) MR RADEBE I agree. CHAIRPERSON And you thought, and you knew that she had been kidnapped because of Maletsatsi? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now why would you assault her? This is your comrade. MR RADEBE I agree she was. We were assaulting her because she had disappeared again. CHAIRPERSON But hasn't it been your evidence that the reason why you were so against Maletsatsi was because she was kidnapping your comrade women, and taking them to the hostel and choosing men to sleep with them? I thought that was the grain of your evidence? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now why should you assault your very own comrade that you knew she had been kidnapped by Maletsatsi and had been subjected to a traumatic experience, being forced to sleep with men at the hostel? MR RADEBE I agree with the Committee, she was kidnapped first. Yes. She was kidnapped, I do agree. But then, she, afterwards, she disappeared and it transpired that she was at Kwamadala. Now we got information that Makasas is no longer among us. She is back in. MS THABETHE Mr Radebe are you suggesting that after Makasas has, had undergone through being raped and being kidnapped, to the hostel, she thereafter went there again? Is that what you are suggesting? To say that? MR RADEBE I am not saying that, I'm saying it was rumoured that she went back. I'm not saying she went back. It was rumoured. We were told that she has returned back. MS THABETHE So would it be correct that you were, you didn't have proof that she had gone back there? MR RADEBE I agree. MR LAX Mr Radebe, what person in their right mind would, after having undergone such a terrifying ordeal, go back to the very place where they had experienced such humiliation? I mean, really, how could you not comprehend such a thing? How could you believe such rumours? That any normal person would find very, very difficult to believe. MR RADEBE I'm saying this because the one abductee, Nondlela, got married in there, got married there. She got married. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we know that, but what we find most distressing with your evidence is that you are seeking to rely on the fact that Maletsatsi was hated by your community because she was instrumental in the kidnapping of your women comrades, and she didn't stop there, she would take them to the hostel and she would choose men to sleep with them, stripping these poor girls of their dignity. Subjecting them to rape, and you believed these women when they came back to report that they had been subjected to this ordeal through the assistance of Maletsatsi. You believe them, didn't you? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why then should you assault Makasas, when she had told you that she had been subjected to a traumatic experience of kidnapping, rape by a big group of hostel dwellers, through Maletsatsi's assistance, do you think she could then willingly go back and subject herself to being raped again? MR RADEBE Can I inform the Committee that it was upon our shoulders to investigate, because we went to her home, we asked them where she was, they told us that they did not know. CHAIRPERSON According to what Maletsatsi said, Makasas states in her affidavit, is that Gogo was also punished by a whole group of comrades, who were demanding an explanation about their whereabouts. Are you aware of that? MR RADEBE I do not understand. CHAIRPERSON According to Makasas, in her affidavit, she states that Gogo was amongst those girls who were severely punished by the comrades who demanded to know where they had disappeared to, and they had to give an explanation about the kidnapping and the terrible ordeal that they had been subjected to whilst they were at Kwamadala Hostel? MR RADEBE It came to my knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Were you not there? MR RADEBE No. CHAIRPERSON Did you know about that assault on these women who had been subjected to such an ordeal before you went to Makasas? MR RADEBE ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON Was that before you went to Makasas? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why did you then have to go to Makasas? What information did you want, if you knew what kind of information had already been extracted from the girls who had been kidnapped and gang raped by hostel dwellers? MR RADEBE Makasas came back to the township. She told us, she informed us as to what was happening, and we accepted that. We accepted the version of what happened to Kwamadala. Makasas spent a few weeks, and afterwards she vanished and we did not know her whereabouts. MS THABETHE Mr Radebe, I don't understand, because I won't venture into this point any further but, according to her evidence, she was called by comrades, she explained, they were punished, then you went to her house again, you assaulted her. My question to you is that, was it common for SDU members to do this, to punish their own people, especially ladies? MR RADEBE It was not common for comrades to assault other comrades. MR LAX But you didn't seem to have any problem hitting her to try and get information out of her. MR RADEBE I agree. MR LAX So, was that common then? Did you interrogate other people in the same way? MR RADEBE When comrades heard something about me as a member of the organisation, they had to come to me and ask me questions, and it depended on me whether I would be co-operative or not. MR LAX That wasn't the question. MR RADEBE What is the question sir, so that I can respond? MR LAX The question was, did you assault other members that you interrogated, other comrades that you interrogated? MR RADEBE Other comrades? MR LAX Precisely. MR RADEBE Yes, it happened that a person who was a card carrying member of the ANC, and he had stolen from someone, he was seen stealing from someone. MR LAX It's a simple question. Did you or did you not assault other comrades when you interrogated them? Yes or no? Don't give me a long story about ...(indistinct) MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Thank you. So you did assault other comrades? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Now, did you punish other comrades? MR RADEBE To assault and to punish I do not get the difference. MR LAX Well the first point was that you assaulted them while you were interrogating them, while you were questioning them. MR RADEBE That is correct. MR LAX The second issue, and why do you question somebody, to get information to decide whether or not they are guilty of something. Isn't that so? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX And once you've decided they are guilty then you punish them, right? MR RADEBE We were not involved in the street committees. When a criminal was troublesome we were then called. MR LAX Well you agreed, when the question was put to you earlier, that you were involved in punishing this woman, as she indicated in her statement. MR RADEBE I agree, yes. MR LAX So, once you interrogated people and you got the information, did you punish them? Yes or no? MR RADEBE Can you repeat your question. MR LAX Once you interrogated people, and you got the information out of them, and you decided that you were guilty, that they were guilty, did you punish them? MR RADEBE Yes, we would punish such a person. MR LAX What kind of punishment did you impose? Give us some examples. MR RADEBE When a person stole from a member of the community, we would use sjamboks and lash that person. MR LAX What other kinds of punishment did you dispense? MR RADEBE The police stations did not accept cases at that time. MR LAX Don't tell me nonsense. What other kind of punishments did you dish out? I'm not interested in why you did it. What did you do? MR RADEBE A person would be killed, sir, if necessary. Would be shot. MR LAX So you would kill them, you would sjambok them, what else would you do to them? Anything else, or was that it? MR RADEBE Tyres were available sir, to burn them. MR LAX Thank you. MS THABETHE Can I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Mr Radebe, did you know, did you have any information of who Maletsatsi's boyfriend was? MR RADEBE No, I did not. MS THABETHE You did not know that Ndondo, Dondo, was Maletsatsi's boyfriend? MR RADEBE I did not know. I know a person that has a child with Maletsatsi, and I don't know him by name, I only know him by sight. MS THABETHE Do you know who Ndondo is? MR RADEBE Yes. MS THABETHE Who is he? MR RADEBE One of the people who killed the community of Sebokeng. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe is it fair to put the question as you put it to him? If he knew that Ndondo was Maletsatsi's boyfriend, without indicating what is contained in the statement with regard to how Maletsatsi befriended Ndondo. MS THABETHE Madam Chair, I just wanted to ascertain whether he knew who Ndondo was and whether he knew that Ndondo and Maletsatsi were boyfriend and girlfriend. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't appear to me that they were much of a girlfriend and boyfriend when they were kidnapped. MS THABETHE Madam Chair if you check in page 185 paragraph 4 of Gambu's statement. CHAIRPERSON I'm fully aware of that, and that's why I'm asking you, because according to the explanation given by Makasas they became girlfriend and boyfriend, if they ever did, on the day when they were abducted. MS THABETHE Madam Chair can you allow me to proceed? I hope I'll show why I'm asking, I'm asking him this. CHAIRPERSON If there is any light, let's do so, bearing in mind that we are under constraints to time. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. Mr Radebe where was Ndondo residing? MR RADEBE I do not know. MS THABETHE All you know is that he was a what, a someone who killed in the community? MR RADEBE I thought you referred to where he stayed in the township. He lived in Steel Park or Kwamadala. MS THABETHE Now, my question to you Mr Radebe, is that, is it not possible that Maletsatsi, who was your comrade, who also, according to Nicoleen Gambu was a girlfriend to Ndondo, is it possible that she decided to stay at Kwamadala Hostel as you have suggested earlier on because she feared your questioning and your punishments and your assaults? Is that possible? MR RADEBE I don't think it's possible. MS THABETHE Considering the fact that she didn't have parents, and the shack that she had been using was being used by you comrades, and considering the fact that you had assaulted other people who had been kidnapped at Kwamadala Hostel, do you think it's not possible that she might have sought refuge at Kwamadala Hostel where she had a boyfriend? CHAIRPERSON You are aware that there is no basis that, there is no basis on which you can rely that she might have feared for her life or having fallen in love with Ndondo, no basis whatsoever. MS THABETHE That's why Madam Chair I said is it possible. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but now you know you expect him to respond to what you yourself are speculating about. This is sheer speculation, and there is no basis even for that speculation. At least if there was some ground that had been laid for you to at least base your information and your opinion on, then it would be a fair question to put to Mr Radebe. I think it's very unfair. MS THABETHE I will leave it at that then Madam Chair. In your statement in page 148 you say when you found Maletsatsi at Thandi's place, you decided, it's on paragraph 8, you decided to take him to the ANC office. Is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS THABETHE But on the way you decided to shoot her. Is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS THABETHE Can you explain why you changed your mind, why you didn't take her to the office but decided to shoot her? MR RADEBE An order had been issued out and the police were troubling, were a trouble in Small Farm at that time. We had received information from comrade Makasas and them. We had received ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON When had you received information from comrade Makasas? MR RADEBE Excuse? CHAIRPERSON You say you had received information from comrade Makasas and others. Was it the information that you extracted after you had assaulted her, or was it before you assaulted her? MR RADEBE This is the information we got before we assaulted her. CHAIRPERSON Yes, notwithstanding the fact that you had believed her then, you decided not to believe when she was again abducted possibly. MR RADEBE Can I please explain to the Committee. I said she came back from the kidnap, and nobody assaulted her. We believed her. All of us. And she disappeared afterwards, and we went to her place to enquire about her whereabouts. They said they did not know where she was. Her other sister was an active member who participated in the activities of the women's league. She said she did not know where Makasas was. CHAIRPERSON On that point I don't think it really turns on anything in respect of your application. You have now seen her explanation about her disappearance, which appears on page 187 and at paragraph 16, that she was ordered by her parents to go to Tembisa. And then if you check again paragraph 19, the reason why she later came back to her home was after she had again tried to avoid the comrades who were harassing her simply because she was once abducted and subjected to long hours of rape by a gang who stayed at Kwamadala Hostel. Were you sensitive at all to her plight? When you heard about her kidnapping, and the fact that she had been gang raped repeatedly for weeks? If you say you were sensitive, what did you show as comrades, about your sensitivity? How did you show your sensitivity towards her plight? Did you read her statement? She says neither her parents even believed her. MR RADEBE After the kidnap we believed her, and we were deeply disturbed about Maletsatsi leading our comrades into the hostel. Yes, I see here that her parents took her to Tembisa, but Lebohang was her sister. She could have told us that she was in Tembisa and we would understand it, but they did not know her whereabouts when she disappeared the second time. CHAIRPERSON But why were you consistently asking about her whereabouts, if you were so sensitive to her plight? You as comrades. MR RADEBE Makasas was one of our comrades. We were taking part together in the Matsani cultural group, singing together, and she disappeared. Not that we were surveilling, we were guarding her, no, we just wanted her as a comrade, and her family could not tell us where she was. Afterwards we got information that she had gone back. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you went back to her house to ask about her whereabouts out of concern not because you suspected that she had gone back to the hostel and to be a police, an IFP informer, or? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You were asking out of concern all the time? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now explain sir why you then proceeded to assault her. MR RADEBE She was back. Makasas where were you? She tells us that she was in Tembisa. We asked her why do members of your family not know that you were in Tembisa. We don't know it, your sister doesn't know it, the people that live with you in the house do not know it that you were in Tembisa. Now this puzzled us, we did not know what was happening. Yes, the first time we understood how she was abducted, but now the second time was really puzzling. CHAIRPERSON Why did you not believe her when she told you that she had been to Tembisa? Did you really expect that she could go back to where she had been subjected to such trauma? Did rape to you as comrades mean nothing at all? Did it not indicate that if you wanted to strip a woman of her dignity all you needed to do was to rape her? MR RADEBE We knew that. CHAIRPERSON Now did you suspect that a woman who had been subjected to being gang raped would go back to Kwamadala Hostel and allow herself to suffer the same fate? MR RADEBE Chairperson, some of them went back. We never thought that she would go back, but because we did not know where she was from we would not accept her among us, she would be a timebomb, and the way she was talking to comrades showed that she was looking for information, and after that, after the assault, we believed that she was not coming from, she was not coming from Kwamadala. MR LAX Mr Radebe this Majiga, was he one of your comrades? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Was he part of your unit? MR RADEBE He was in the Small Farm unit. MR LAX Do you see what she says here, how he kept hassling her? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Do you not think that that was a good enough reason for her to be terrified and to be sent by her family somewhere else? MR RADEBE That she was hassled by Majiga is new to me. MR LAX Well you see not all your comrades accepted what she said. Clearly from what she's saying here others didn't accept it. Do you see that? MR RADEBE It's not all the comrades who I do not understand. MR LAX I don't know what you're asking me. MR RADEBE Can you please repeat the question. I wanted to respond, but I did not understand it. MR LAX No problem. What I'm saying to you is, is it not clear to you that not all of your comrades understood her plight, understood what she had been through. Some of them like Majiga persisted in asking her questions about where she had been. MR RADEBE I would not know that because Makasas nor Majiga did not tell, inform me about that. MR LAX Yes, but you can't dispute that happened as she said it did in her statement. MR RADEBE I would not dispute that. I would not confirm that. MR LAX All I'm saying to you is in the light of that, you can understand why her family would not have told you where she was because they were terrified that something might happen to her. Not so? MR RADEBE I don't know how they took it, but what I know is that all members of the Kamufe family were ANC. MR LAX I'm going to leave this. I don't know whether you're just deliberately not listening, or if there's some communication problem. I'll leave it anyway. MS THABETHE No further questions Madam Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, if you look at your application form on page 141, paragraph 7(b), it says there you're an MK underground member. Are you an MK underground member? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN This is not Mr Khumalo's evidence. MR RADEBE If the Committee has a problem with that the person who just testified before me provided training. ADV BOSMAN He did not testify that you were trained for MK. He said you were on a training course as an SDU. MR RADEBE I'm saying I got trained. ADV BOSMAN As an MK underground? MR RADEBE That is correct. ADV BOSMAN I won't take that any further. What do you understand to be an MK? MR RADEBE An MK is a soldier, was a soldier who would fight for his country at the time when the boers were ruling. ADV BOSMAN Now who told you that the training course was an MK underground training course? MR RADEBE That is Commissar Banda. ADV BOSMAN I won't pursue that any further. CHAIRPERSON Are you aware that there were cessation of hostilities by the MK as a structure, when you allegedly went for your, what has been called a crash course? Are you aware of that? That you therefore couldn't have been trained as an MK? And that's the reason why there was a need for the establishment of SDUs. Because MK had become operationally inoperative. MR RADEBE The person who trained me can tell you. CHAIRPERSON I'm telling you this as a fact. We have a submission from the ANC together with its undoing Umkhonto weSiswe. You evidence in this regard is completely in discord with the submission by the structure itself. You are mistaken. ADV BOSMAN Did I understand you correctly, that your hiding place was in Maletsatsi's shack and that you hid your weapons there? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN Now you also, if I understood you correctly, testified that the reason why you felt Maletsatsi had to be killed was because she knew too much. She knew where you were hiding, and she knew where you hid the weapons. Is that correct? MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN Now if you turn to your statement on page 147, you state there, in paragraph 5, the bottom line, now that is the statement relates to the morning after the police had been there, "...the following morning Majiga Philip and other burned Maletsatsi's shack." Is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. ADV BOSMAN Well then if the shack had been burned surely you could no longer use it as a hiding place. Your weapons could no longer have been there. Do you agree? MR RADEBE Can you repeat your question. I want to understand you clearly. ADV BOSMAN You said that Maletsatsi had to be killed, when you shot her, because she knew too much. She knew where you stayed in her shack and she knew about the weapons that were hidden there. MR RADEBE Yes. ADV BOSMAN Then you say in your statement that the shack was burned down. This was before she was killed. MR RADEBE Correct. ADV BOSMAN So where were your weapons? In another place? MR RADEBE When we slept at night each one would take his weapon. Now because of the sounds of the vehicles we all ran out. ADV BOSMAN No you don't follow my question. I say that by the time Maletsatsi was killed, the shack was burned down. Is that correct? MR RADEBE The shack had been burned already when she was killed. ADV BOSMAN Okay, so you could not then be scared that she would divulge your hiding place because it was no longer your hiding place. Am I correct? MR RADEBE We had more than ten bases. It's not only Maletsatsi's place that we used as our base. She knew many of our hiding places, not only her shack. ADV BOSMAN How did she know about the other places? MR RADEBE Sometimes it would happen that we go to a night vigil and some of the comrades would be expected to patrol, and Maletsatsi was among a group that was singing for a cultural group, and before leaving for a night vigil we would go past the bases and take what we would need. And we did not hide things, some of the things from them, sometimes when one of the comrades was being sought by the police we would send her, we would send the girls, so that the police or the people do not realise there were people in the yard. That's how she knew about our bases. ADV BOSMAN I won't take that any further. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Bosman. Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. Now I want you to look at page 148, paragraph 6. You say there that comrade Kennel Paulus Malekwane was your unit commander at Small Farms. Do you see that ? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Was he your unit commander? MR RADEBE Yes, I was still in Small Farm. MR LAX Well then how could you have got an order from Mabusa if you were still in the Small Farms unit and you hadn't yet gone to Zone 12 unit? MR RADEBE I think I mentioned that it was in the morning when Kennel mentioned this issue. We were still in Small Farms, and I left the Small Farm unit heading for Zone 12. That's when I told them about this issue, and they had already received the news as well. MR LAX No, that's not the case. You were not a member yet of that unit. Isn't that so MR RADEBE Which unit? MR LAX The Zone 12 unit. MR RADEBE When I left Small Farm I was already a member of the Zone 12 unit. I gave them this information because I was already a member. MR LAX Your previous evidence is that you hadn't joined the Zone 12 unit at that stage. Do you remember that? You remained a member of the Small Farms unit, and that's why Molekwane was your unit commander. Have you forgotten that? MR RADEBE The Committee must please remember, what did I say, I do not remember well, but what I do remember is that I gave them information, when I gave them information I was already their member. CHAIRPERSON You were a fully fledged member of the Zone 12 unit in June 1993? MR RADEBE 1993? CHAIRPERSON My apologies, June 1992. MR RADEBE I do not remember well. CHAIRPERSON That is your evidence. It's approximately then. You were not precise. You were estimating. According to the evidence of Mr Mabusa however, you initially joined, you were recruited or went into his unit, in May. He then appointed you to go to Sasolburg for a course for a month. When you came back not only were you a member but you were second in charge to him. That's in June 1992. MR RADEBE I want to inform the Committee that I do not want to make mistakes as to when did I leave for Sasolburg. I do not remember activities according to days. I would be committing myself. MR LAX The simple point is this. On Mabusa Mhlongo's evidence, you weren't in Zone 12 or Small Farms during June 1993. You were in Sasolburg on a training course. MR RADEBE Can you repeat your question please. MR LAX According to Mabuso Mhlongo you went on a training course. Let me just check something to be absolutely certain. Yes, my note here is fairly clear. You came back from your training in June 1993. The end of June he said. You joined at the end of May. The whole of June you were away on training. You don't know when you came back. MR RADEBE Yes, I don't remember. MR LAX Now in your earlier evidence you told us that you went on an orientation course. Remember that ? MR RADEBE Mabuso Mhlongo said you want on a proper training course, a full training course, and he went with you so he knows what course you went on, because he recommended you for that course. Can you explain to us that? MR RADEBE Yes. The person who made arrangements for the course was me. Now I'm requesting the Committee to believe me when I speak because I did the arrangements. MR LAX Mr Radebe, we've heard from Bonga Khumalo and from Mabusa Mhlongo, that you as an ordinary member wouldn't have had anything to with your training. They would have organised it for you. You would have been selected to go on the training, but you wouldn't have made the arrangements yourself. That was the way it worked, and they said as much, and you heard that evidence yourself. MR RADEBE Yes, I heard. MR LAX So how could you say you did the arrangements yourself? That wasn't the policy. MR RADEBE I'm not saying the arrangements as in training. Let me put it this way, when the preparations were made for me to go underground. MR LAX When Mabusa instructed you to kill Maletsatsi, he says he was alone with you at that time. You have told us that a whole lot of other members of our unit were there. Please explain this. MR RADEBE ...(not translated) CHAIRPERSON The question refers to Mabusa Mhlongo. MR RADEBE I think I said Kennel told us when it was many of us. Your evidence was that Mabusa Mhlongo told you in the company of others like Godfrey, I can't remember all the other names without going back to the details of my note, but you mentioned a few other members. CHAIRPERSON Comrade Mabusa, Godfrey, and other members that belonged to the unit. MR LAX So there's no mistake here. Your evidence was clear, there were more than just the two of you present when he gave the order. He was very careful in his testimony to say that he was alone with you when he gave you the order. I want you to explain that to us. MR RADEBE I can tell this Committee that we engaged in many activities and we did not write these things down. We did not keep a record. The records that were kept were the meetings of the ANC, and mistakes are bound to be made in such activities because I would say here I was involved in such an activity with a certain comrade, while in actual fact I am making a mistake, it was a different comrade, because these things happened a long time ago. CHAIRPERSON Without going into a very long story, if you've made such a mistake just say I made a mistake. I mean I'm having recollection difficulties, this thing happened in 1993 and we are now in 1999 and there were quite a number of activities that we were involved in other than this. Just say so without having to bog yourself down into unnecessary details. MR RADEBE The Committee must please bear with me when I make mistakes. I never thought that I would appear in 1999 reliving what we did in the past. MR LAX Kennel wasn't a member of the Zone 12 unit, was he? MR RADEBE He was not. MR LAX So how would he be searching for these people, Maletsatsi and her gang, with you? MR RADEBE Kennel was in Small Farms. MR LAX Look at paragraph 6 on page 148. You say, "..during the hunting I was with the following comrades, Godfrey Shiya, Kennel, Skosana, Oupa Keswa, Bonga Khumalo, Fani Mkhwanazi and Sipho Tshabalala." Do you see that? MR RADEBE Yes, I agree. MR LAX But he wasn't a member of your unit, he was at Small Farms. Your unit was from Zone 12. Bonga Khumalo also wasn't there according to his own testimony. MR RADEBE Yes, I said he was not there. Can I explain Kennel's issue in this way? Now when we had in our midst a comrade from Small Farm he would assist us in identifying people, we didn't want to attack members of our own community. He would actually give us the signs that were used during the patrols because signs differed by day. CHAIRPERSON You know the question was a very simple question. Is the Kennel that is reflected here in paragraph 6, the same Kennel as Kennel Paulas Malagwane? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON If so, did he form part of the hunting that you conducted? Yes or no? MR RADEBE Yes, he was there. MR LAX Nowhere in this statement, in relation to the killing of Maletsatsi, do you say that Bonga Khumalo gave you the instruction to kill her. No sorry, not Bonga Khumalo, I beg your pardon, Mabusa Mhlongo. MR RADEBE Sometimes we think things would happen according to our imaginations, and they would take a different turn. Kennel, Mabusa, it was through Mabusa and it came to me through Kennel. MR LAX Now, say that again. MR RADEBE I must have been mistaken by thinking that because it was first mentioned by Kennel I was not supposed to mention Mabusa's name. MR LAX Why weren't you supposed to mention Mabusa's name? MR RADEBE I mentioned Mabusa's name in the first order. I thought it would be improper to write Mabusa in the first one and in the second one. Some of the things we do not include in our applications and thinking that we would elaborate on them when we sit here. Like now, there are many people who stole in the township that were involved ...(intervention) MR LAX Yes I don't want to hear about people who stole in the township, just stick to the point. The point is a simple one. Why didn't you mention Mabusa Mhlongo who gave you the direct order, in your statement? MR RADEBE I made a mistake by omitting, by not writing him. MR LAX Now, just now in your evidence you said the instruction came from Mabusa through Malekwane. Did I hear you correctly? MR RADEBE I did not say that. MR LAX He didn't say that? INTERPRETER Chairperson the interpreter has actually twisted the names. MR LAX That's fine, I'm happy to hear that, it really helps us a great deal. Now, you were asked in a letter to tell us which commander gave you which orders. Do you remember that? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX And you basically said "...the orders to commit the, the commission want to know where I received orders to commit the killing, and they came from the African National Congress office from Paulus Kennel Malekwane, Stanley and Mabusa Mhlongo." Correct? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX You see that on page 157? Stanley never ever gave you an order to kill anybody, did he? MR RADEBE He never gave me an order. MR LAX Well then why did you put him here as someone that gave you an order? MR RADEBE He was the chairperson of the ANC at the time, and because of my standard of education I cannot draft such letters on my own. I had to dictate to someone. CHAIRPERSON You know I would be much better if you gave a much more plausible reason, that you included Stanley because he is part of the leadership. Now you've alluded to that, and now you are diverting from really what should be a very clear response. As a chairperson of the ANC youth league he must take overall responsibility for your action as SDU members. MR RADEBE My apologies for extending my answer. I should have given a very brief response. MR LAX So, just to help us, why did you say, why did you put his name there? MR RADEBE I wanted to explain, I cannot write, I have someone writing on my behalf. MR LAX The question you were answering was who were your commanders who gave you the orders. Do you remember that? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Well Stanley never gave you any orders. MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Why did you put him in there as somebody who gave you orders? It's what's written here. It's really quite simple. MR RADEBE The person who wrote Stanley's name here is the person who wrote this letter on my behalf. I told him the positions that were occupied by the people and he included Stanley's name and I agreed with him. MR LAX Stanley was never your commander. He wasn't even part of the SDU structures. MR RADEBE Yes, I agree. MR LAX So why did you mention him in the context of your commanders? You dictated the letter, remember? CHAIRPERSON I think that's no fair. Neither was Mr Malekwane his commander. That is not his evidence. MR LAX Was Mr Malekwane in your evidence when you were at Small Farms, your commander? MR RADEBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON But he didn't give you the order for this incident, isn't it? He wasn't your commander when you committed this act. When you killed Maletsatsi you were not acting directly on the command of your unit commander? MR RADEBE Yes. MR LAX Wasn't your earlier evidence that when Malekwane spoke to all of you that, early that morning, he issued a command, as a commander. That's what you said. MR RADEBE I'm saying I took it from Mabusa because I was already in his unit. The issue of Kennel addressing us when we were in large number, I leave it. Such orders were even issued out at night vigils. A comrade would stand up in front of the people and inform the people as to what happened. MR LAX Well then I take you back to paragraph 6 of your statement of page 148 "...comrade Kennel Paulus Malekwane was a unit commander who told us that Maletsatsi and the IFP members must be killed. We began hunting them but could not find them." Was that not an order to kill them? MR RADEBE I agree, it was. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. MR RADEBE Chairperson, I explained to the person who was writing this letter on my behalf. I told him that Stanley told us to do a clean job. This person said, oh yes, then we must include his name, and then I agreed. CHAIRPERSON I'm not concerned about what a person told you to do, and you agreeing, when in fact it was not so. We are concerned about why you included persons, and we need plausible explanations why they were included in the context in which they were included. MR RADEBE Alright. CHAIRPERSON I have no questions to put to Mr Radebe. That being the situation, Ms Thabethe if I understood you earlier on, you said the application is unopposed in respect of this incident. MS THABETHE Yes, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON In the light of the fact that we have now come to the end of leading evidence in respect of Mr Radebe's application, Ms Moloisane are you in a position to address us? MS MOLOISANE I am in a position to address you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed to do so but otherwise if you need it, about five minutes to collate your notes, I know this has been a very protracted matter, we would be very favourable to give you that indulgence. However, if you feel that you are in a position to proceed without any kind of adjournment we would be greatly indebted to you now that we notice that the time almost half past seven at night. WITNESS EXCUSED MS MOLOISANE ADDRESSES COMMITTEE Madam Chair I am in a position to address this Committee, and I will start with the second incident, that of Maletsatsi. Madam Chair and Committee Members, my submission is that there has been full disclosure of these activities as required by the Act, and Madam Chair, I also would like to point out that as far as I am concerned, the applicant tried his best to recall the events of 1992, 1993, that led to the killing of Maletsatsi Marumo. Madam Chair, Committee Members, I agree that it has been a very tedious task for the applicant to recall the sequence of events as they happened then, Madam Chair and Committee Members, and Madam Chair, I, in this regard, would like to draw this Committee's attention to the fact that when this incident took place the applicant was 15, 16 year of age, and it is therefore the reason why he has, or he experiences such difficulty in recalling the sequence of events. Nevertheless, my submission is that the applicant has established that in committing the said murder, he was acting on the orders. Madam Chair it is not disputed that the said orders came from Mabusa Mhlongo and Kennel Malekwane. Madam Chair it is also not disputed ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON You confuse me now if you include Kennel Malekwane. My understanding of your client's evidence, at least the thrust thereof, is that this was mentioned by Malekwane when they were in Small Farm. As a result of that information he took it to his commander, Mabusa Mhlongo, who then appropriately as a commander of his unit issued the order to have Maletsatsi killed. MS MOLOISANE I'm indebted to you Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the crux of the matter is that the applicant in acting in the manner in which he did, that is in killing Maletsatsi, was merely executing orders that had been issued by a person who was in authority, and Mabusa Mhlongo himself testified, Madam Chair and Committee Members, that he was indeed the person in command, and the he did issue such an order, and to some extent that was also corroborated by Mr Bonga Khumalo, that Mabusa Mhlongo, having been an ex-MK cadre, was the unit commander of the unit to which the applicant belonged, and furthermore, Madam Chair, the said Bonga Khumalo also confirmed that the unit commanders had the authority, above all, to issue specific orders. Madam Chair, I therefore ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Without interfering with the flow of your argument, and I hate having to do this, you are now relying on what Mr Khumalo said as the general commander, rightfully so, but hasn't he created a little bit of a problem insofar as the suspect is concerned, because his testimony is that, inasmuch as the commanders had authority to issue specific orders, emanating from his general order, they were also under some kind of obligation to verify information, before acting on that information, and in this case we do not have any such evidence that anything was verified by the commander concerned. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, I have already stated that the applicant was merely an operator. He depended on somebody who had to issue orders, and as to the verification of the allegations levelled against the particular people, or in this case Maletsatsi, it was not encumbent upon the applicant himself to verify those orders. It was the duty of his unit commander, Madam Chair, and having, these SDUs having been recognised by the community, and, my submission is that the applicant had no other way but to comply with orders that were issued by his unit commander who was recognised as his unit commander and who had earned that position by virtue of his having been an ex-MK cadre, and who also had the authority to issue commands. My submission is therefore that there was a political motive, and that the objective that was sought to be achieved was purely political. CHAIRPERSON Which objective did they seek to achieve in respect of the Maletsatsi killing? MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair, the applicants they said that Maletsatsi had to be eliminated, and although it was not his own initiative to do so, it was an order, but that he went further to say that it was because Maletsatsi was in possession of vital information concerning their activities, which information was being suspected that she was passing, or imparting. MR LAX Is it your argument that he had no alternative but to carry out this order. MS MOLOISANE That is correct Mr Lax. MR LAX Well then how do you deal with his evidence where he said that he was going to take her, they were going to take her to the office at Small Farms, but then he decided of his own accord that in view of he order, and in view of the information he already had about her, she should just be killed there and then? Just before I finish, doesn't that imply that he used his own discretion at that point in time, and he wasn't just following orders? MS MOLOISANE Committee Member Mr Lax if I recall the evidence of the applicant well, the evidence, and that of Mr Mabusa Mhlongo, an order had been issued that Maletsatsi should be eliminated, and surely by taking the applicant, or the decision to take the Maletsatsi to the ANC office for questioning first, was only the applicant's own decision. He had never been told to take him for questioning first. The order was simply that Maletsatsi should be killed. MR LAX The question is that he and his comrades, as he testified, were going to take her to the office, not necessarily for questioning, they were going to take her to the office first, to report, as I understood it. Then he of his own according decided well in view of the order, and in view of the other information he already knew, that was his evidence, he was going to kill her there and then. Because he was worried the police might catch them on the way. MS MOLOISANE I agree with you Committee Member, but the crux of the matter is an order was issued and he had to carry it out. CHAIRPERSON So you are basically saying the question of taking her to the office, which was his decision, does not detract from the fact that his order was to kill her, whether he decided to take her to the office, for whatever reason, that still does not remove the fact that he was acting under orders to kill Maletsatsi, and that's what he ultimately did. MS MOLOISANE That is correct, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair, it is also an established fact that there was political violence in the Vaal townships during that period 1992, 93, when this incident took place. I therefore submit that the offences that the, the murder of Maletsatsi falls within the ambit of Section 20, Subsection 2, of this Act and that in terms of Section 20, Subsection 3, that context, Three, Section 20, Subsection 3(b) the context in which this act or offence took place, was committed in the course of a political uprising, and we have already heard evidence that this act was clearly associated with a political motive. MR LAX Sorry, my understanding of that subsection is that that's intended to deal with situations where people react to a situation like a crowd where the police open fire, or a group of people in the heat of a disturbance do something. This was a premeditated thing. Do you see what I mean? MS MOLOISANE I do agree. I concede that it was premeditated, but then it was not just something that came out of the blue. The reason why a decision was made that Maletsatsi should be eliminated, came as a result of the information that the comrades, and in particular Mabusa Mhlongo's unit, had at their disposal, that is to the effect that Maletsatsi had vital information about their activities, that is the ANC activities, or comrades activities, and that she had now joined the other camp, and that she was now imparting information to the other side. CHAIRPERSON I don't understand why you should agree with Mr Lax. Isn't it common cause that there was political turmoil in the Vaal at the time when this incident happened, and you are relying on that Subsection because of that? MS MOLOISANE That is correct, Madam Chair. Am I? MR LAX Please continue. We have different understandings of that section, and it's not that material. You are still covered by other sections. I'm just saying my understanding of that specific section B is that it deals with situations where people react to a particular incident. This is not where somebody reacted to an incident, but we don't have the same understanding of that section and I don't wish to burden us with that issue. I still think the issue of the political context of the violence, that's common cause. There's no issue that there wasn't violence at the time. That's not the issue as far as I'm concerned. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, I also would like to draw this Committee's attention to the evidence of the victim herself. That is the, no, I'm sorry I'm now getting in to the grain of the other application. As far as this application is concerned, that is concerning the incident of Maletsatsi Marumo, that is all Madam Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well what do you say then about Section 20 Subsection 2 and the Subsections referred to thereunder, under Subsection 2? NO RECORDING CHAIRPERSON To which sub-subsection would your client qualify under? MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members I have already drawn this Committee's attention to Subsection 2(a), subsection, yes, 2(a), any member of which provides that, any member of political, or supporter of a publicly known political organisation, or liberation movement on behalf of or in support of such organisation or movement, bona fide, in furtherance of a political struggle ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We are familiar with the Subsection, you don't have to read it out. Is that all? Is it your submission that he qualifies in terms of that section only? MS MOLOISANE My further submission is that he also qualifies in terms of Subsection (f). Because he was acting in the course and scope of his duty and within the scope of his or her express or implied authority. I'm in. I'm indebted to you Madam Chair. A and D. CHAIRPERSON And in terms of Section 20 Subsection 3, specifically, which subsection does he qualify? MS MOLOISANE A. That is the motive of the person who committed the act omission or offence. CHAIRPERSON You've dealt with A and B. MS MOLOISANE Subsection A. The applicant was acting in execution of an order. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I take it that's all that you want to address us in respect of the first incident? MS MOLOISANE That is correct Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Before you move to the second incident, I am going to give Ms Thabethe an opportunity to respond, in respect of the Maletsatsi incident. MS THABETHE ADDRESSES COMMITTEE Madam Chair in respect of the Maletsatsi incident I have nothing further add to what my learned colleague has said. I'll abide by the Committee's decision. CHAIRPERSON You have no position to proffer? You are leaving it in the hands of the Committee? MS THABETHE Well Madam Chair if I have to make any position really I would say it appears that the applicant was acting under orders and I would concur with my learned friend that it appears that his act does fall under the ambit of the Act. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Moloisane, you may proceed with the second incident. MS MOLOISANE ADDRESSES THE COMMITTEE Madam Chair and Committee Members, as far as the second incident is concerned, that is that of Hapile Ndumo and the attempted murder of Elsie Mokoena, my submission is also that there has been full disclosure as required by the Act. I further submit that these offences were committed with a political motive and I also wish to reiterate the fact that the Committee and all of us know that there was political turmoil in the Vaal townships during that period and that there were self defence unit, and that these self defence unit were engaged or involved in certain activities within the townships. I further submit that the both applicants belonged to a unit, a self defence unit. They were both members of the ANC youth league, and both of them belonged to the unit that was headed by Mr Mabusa Mhlongo. CHAIRPERSON That's the evidence of one applicant, not the other applicant. MS MOLOISANE As it pleases you Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON You will recall that Mr Mkhwanazi said the unit was headed by Bonga Khumalo. Now how do we deal with that? MS MOLOISANE I do agree with the fact that that was his evidence, Madam Chair, but then I ask this Committee to take into account the fact that Mr Abraham Khumalo was the youngest, in fact he is the youngest of the two applicant, ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN Just for the record, Mkhwanazi was the youngest. MS MOLOISANE Mr Mkhwanazi. He was born in 1978 and at the time of this incident in 1992 ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He was also fifteen wasn't he? MS MOLOISANE He is a year younger than Mr Radebe. MR LAX Mr Radebe was sixteen and a half at the time, so if he's a year younger he'd be fifteen. MS MOLOISANE I do agree, Madam Chair, but the point I'm trying to drive home, or to bring home, is that Mr Radebe was under the command of Mr Mabusa Mhlongo. Mr Mabusa Mhlongo issued instructions, orders, that Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena should be eliminated, or should be killed, and as far as Mr Radebe is concerned, he acted in furtherance of or in compliance with those orders. CHAIRPERSON What weight should be attach to the fact that Mr Mkhwanazi, inasmuch as he was only fifteen years of age, was much longer in that unit than Mr Radebe. Mr Radebe came in quite late to join the unit. Wouldn't one have expected Mr Mkhwanazi to have know the commander better than Mr Radebe? I am saying this mindful of the fact that Mr Radebe was second in charge to the commander of the unit, when he joined it, but he joined it much later. Surely Mr Mkhwanazi would know who is the commander of his unit, and cannot make a mistake with regard to his commander. How does that mistake happen? MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair, I do agree that there was that mistake, but, and it is unfortunate, because I am no in a position to can account for that mistake, but the point is that Mr Bonga Khumalo was the overall commander of the Zone 12 self defence unit, and as such Mr Mabusa Mhlongo was subordinate to him and accountable to him to some extent. CHAIRPERSON You see what really caused me concern, was Mr Mkhwanazi saying that not only was Mr Khumalo a commander, but he was a commander to whom Mr Radebe was second in charge. That really created more problems to me. It showed a situation where one was aware of the structure and the chain of command. Do you get the problem that we are sitting with? MS MOLOISANE I do, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON We are not talking of a person who is ill informed of the structure of his unit and the chain of command. He is aware of the structure. He is able to tell you who is on top. He might have honestly mistaken Bonga Khumalo as being a commander by virtue of him having been the general commander of Zone 12, but how does he then go on to mistakenly say Mr Radebe was second in charge to the commander Mr Bonga Khumalo? MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair, at this stage we know that Mr Radebe was sort of more senior to Mr Mkhwanazi, but that being the case, the fact that Bonga, I mean Mr Radebe was second in command to Bonga, I mean, puts me in a very difficult position. I cannot take that further, but the only point that I can drive home is that it is true that Mr Radebe was second in charge, or had some kind of authority that had been bestowed on him by Mr Mabusa Mhlongo. CHAIRPERSON We are quite aware of that from his evidence, and from the evidence of Mr Mabusa Mhlongo, and definitely from the evidence of Mr Khumalo, but where does the evidence of Mr Mkhwanazi leave us in this regard? What weight should be attach because Mr Radebe inasmuch as he ultimately became second in charge he was a Johnny come late into the unit as it were, and Mr Mkhwanazi was well know. All the witnesses who came in to testify in support of their applications were saying they knew Mr Mkhwanazi very well, they knew Mr Mkhwanazi better than they knew Mr Radebe. But how do we, how do we account for a serious mistake which relates to not only the structure, but the chain of command? MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, I do agree, I do admit that there is that mistake, but as my submission is that that mistake according to the evidence that we have before us is not that material in the sense that Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr, I mean Mr Mkhwanazi said that he got, he had been instructed by Mr Radebe to keep watch on the two girls, and even in his application he did state when there was a sentence, yes, there is a sentence where he is, well a question I mean, where he was being asked if he had been acting under orders or in compliance with orders, whose orders were they, and he mentioned Mr Radebe as the person who had given him orders on that particular day or relating to the event of that day. CHAIRPERSON That's neither here nor there, is it? If one takes into account the evidence of Mhlongo, that this order was given to all unit members, which would include Mr Mkhwanazi himself. That to me is the problem. A profound problem. He need not have actually acted on anyone's orders, if one takes account of Mr Mhlongo's evidence. MR LAX You see the other problem is that he doesn't even mention Mhlongo as having given that order at all, whereas he, according to Mhlongo, he was present. ADV BOSMAN And furthermore, when there was evidence that Mr Radebe asked him, what should we do, and he said I don't know, it gives me a problem if he had an order where he had been present, then he should have said well we are ordered to kill. It give me a problem. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, my submission is that Mr Mkhwanazi himself, on that particular day, according to the evidence, had reduced himself to a subordin, to be subordinate to Mr Radebe. Mr Radebe was very active. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Radebe was an active person from the look of things, but the fact of the matter ids, if one is cognisant to the evidence of Mr Mhlango who was the commander, the members present when he issued the order included Mr Mkhwanazi, and his order was that any of them should kill Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena on sight. So the fact that he really acted under orders doesn't take the matter any further. We still are saddled with a profound problem of what weight to attack to Mkhwanazi's evidence which stands in stark contrast to the evidence given by a host of witnesses that you called to support both the applications. I understand your difficulty. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee ...intervention) CHAIRPERSON You may proceed to another aspect. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Memebers, I wish to draw this Committee's attention to the fact, to put weight to the lapse of time, the fact that these incidents took place five years ago, more than five years ago. CHAIRPERSON Absolutely, we take that into account. Then when we deal with the chain if command, it was not Mr Mkhwanazi's evidence that he could not properly recollect who the commander of his unit was. That was not his evidence. There was no shadow of doubt about who his commander was, so we cannot, outside the context of the evidence before us, take things into account unless the evidence indicates that we should take such things into account. If some doubt had been expressed by Mr Mkhwanazi about the structure of command, then maybe we would definitely have to take that into account. As it is, we were given very clear evidence about who the commander was. He expressed no doubt. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, as far as the aspect is concerned, I leave it in your hands. MR LAX Let's move on to another point. MS MOLOISANE She does also confirm that she was rumoured, or that she knew that there were rumours that she was an IFP spy or informer. Therefore, to some extent she corroborates the version of the applicant as far as that is concerned, and Mr Mhlongo himself told this Committee that he managed to find out more about the activities of Elsie Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo, and that made him to become more cruel, that is in his own words, he said "...that changed me and made me to become more cruel." And because there had been a general command that had been issued, about or concerning the Imidwembe, or Elsie Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena, Hapile Ndumo and other Imidwembes, he confirms that he did in fact issue a command, an order, that whoever saw them, wherever they were to be seen, and whenever they were to be seen, they were to be eliminated. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON MR LAX I might add that Mr Khumalo corroborates that by saying there were people who were shocked at the decision, and he had to explain what had happened. He had to explain to the community. Remember that. So just add that to the issue. ADV BOSMAN I also would like to mention that the fact that Ms Elsie Mokoena testified that they had not been found guilty, they had not been given lashes, is perhaps a material matter where it relates to the issue of full disclosure, and Mr Mhlongo, if I remember correctly, did not testify that he was aware of the fact that they had been given lashes. MS MOLOISANE As far as Mr Mhlongo was concerned he only received information concerning that incident. He did not have any first hand knowledge. He did not have any first hand knowledge thereof. ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair as far as the issue of full disclosure is concerned, my submission is that Mr Mhlongo, I mean, did not have actual knowledge as to the incident at the garage when the girls were being questioned, therefore I cannot take this matter further in the sense that he did in fact state that he only received information about that incident. The only person who had information, first hand knowledge, about that incident, was Stanley Gqiba, who had been present during the questioning, and although the two girls had been acquitted at that stage, Mr Mhlongo went on to tell this Committee that he did at some stage throw a hand grenade in to a white car in which Hapile Ndumo and some other girls were travelling, and that the fact that he also saw them, I mean, being involved with, in the harassment of the members of the community, angered him, and that prompted him to issue an order that they should be killed. My submission is therefore that the killing of Hapile Ndumo and the attempted killing of Elsie Mokoena occurred because of the circumstances that prevailed in the, in Sebokeng at that time. There was political violence, there had been killings, and anybody who had been seen in the company of members or of member of the IFP were perceived to be selling the community out to the IFP and therefore endangering the lives of the members of the community, and that was also aggravated by the Boipatong massacre which had taken place about two months prior to the events of the 16th of August 1993. I therefore submit that the crimes were committed with a political motive and that there were orders that had been issued that the two girls be executed, and that there has been full disclosure. MR LAX MS MOLOISANE 1992. CHAIRPERSON June? MR LAX Yes, it was the 17th of June 1992. MS MOLOISANE MR LAX CHAIRPERSON What actually prompted him to issue the order, was Mhlongo seeing the two IFP members in the company of three girls, one of whom was identified to be Hapile. MR LAX And then later, when he issued the second order, the incident in town, where that group of people including Elsie this time, were harassing people and stealing their groceries and so on. MS MOLOISANE MR LAX MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair, Committee Members, if this Committee recalls the evidence of Mabusa Mhlongo, nowhere in his testimony did he mention the fact that he was with the others when he threw this hand grenade into the car, and we do not also, he also said that he was alone in town when he noticed them. And we do not have any knowledge or any information as to whether this incident were ever elated to the other unit members. ADV BOSMAN No we do have,...(intervention) MR LAX MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members it is unfortunate that I am not in a position to can explain to this Committee as to why the other, the applicant failed to mention this important fact during their testimony, and the fact, or let me put it this way, I submit that whether the said Mr Mhlongo had actually told them or not, or let us assume that he told them, because that is his evidence, as to why they failed to, the applicants failed to disclose that during their testimony, I cannot account, Madam Chair, Committee Members. CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, my submission is that if there was any other motive, apart from the political one, to abduct the girls from the tavern, then the applicants surely had ample time and, to do whatever they wanted to do with the girls. If the motive was to go and rape them, they could have taken them to a secluded place or wherever and carried out their intentions, or whatever they intended to do with the two girls, but because the motive was purely political, they told Elsie Mokoena that she had to go with them to Zone 12, and she was not co-operative, and that is the reason why she was shot at that place before Hapile could be shot. CHAIRPERSON MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, if I recall the evidence of Elsie correctly, she was, and that is also the evidence of the applicants, she was at some stage left with a certain Borman Ntjolo, who had to keep guard on her, whilst they went to look for ammunition. CHAIRPERSON She was left all by herself, whilst Ntjolo and Simon Niti, who is also otherwise known as Zandi, went into the house with Hapile for a period of about five minutes according to Elsie. MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE The fact Madam Chair and Committee Members that I want to highlight is the fact that the two applicants went about looking for ammunition, and if their intention was purely criminal, if they had intended to rape the two girls, surely they could have taken them along and not left them behind when going about looking for ammunition. But because the main reason why they had to go about looking for ammunition was for them to be able to carry out the orders as had been, they had been given to them by their commander ...(intervention) MR LAX MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members, to some extent I agree with the Chair that he decided not, he had decided not to carry out the orders immediately but to go off with the girls, but I do not want to submit that perhaps he enjoyed torturing them before killing them, or before carrying out the orders. That point I never canvassed, neither was it canvassed by my learned friend Ms Thabethe, as to why he went about with them before executing the orders as he had stated. CHAIRPERSON No, that was a point that was extensively canvassed, both by Ms Thabethe and members of the Panel, and no plausible explanation could be given by Mr Radebe. So much that I draw an inference which inference would be in his favour in any case. Proceed therefore, but otherwise you may proceed, you are here to make your submissions. MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON I thought you had already covered that, that it was not his way of killing people. MS MOLOISANE CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed to another aspect. MS MOLOISANE Madam Chair and Committee Members I therefore submit that this act, act for which the applicant now seek amnesty fall within the ambit of the Act, and that the murder and the attempted murder were carried out in execution of orders and that there was nothing that the applicant could have done by virtue of the fact that they were members of the self defence unit and had to act in accordance with orders that had been given to them. MR LAX Carry on. MS MOLOISANE I further submit that this incident for which the applicants are now seeking amnesty fall within the ambit of Section 20 Subsection 2 and Section 20 Subsection 3 A, B and E. And I have no further address unless if the Committee Members still want me to address them on specific issues. CHAIRPERSON We are satisfied with what you have addressed us on. We have indicated our difficulties as you were going along with your address, and you have attempted your best to address us on those that we drew your attention to. Ms Thabethe do you have anything to say? MS THABETHE ADDRESSES THE COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE To the objective that was sought to be achieved. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE MR LAX MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON They were foot soldiers, at least one was. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE Precisely Madam Chair. Maybe I would request the Panel if maybe they can give me guidance on what they would like to get from me in terms of my opinion pertaining to certain issues. Maybe then I can respond to that. CHAIRPERSON MS THABETHE MR LAX ADV BOSMAN In fact Ms Thabethe Mr Mhlongo testified that he twice gave the order in the presence of Mr Mkhwanazi. MS THABETHE MR LAX CHAIRPERSON For you, therefore, to infer that he might have thought Mr Radebe to be the commander, would under those circumstances, be incorrect. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON What do you say to the fact that he was the long serving member in that unit? Do you still say that he would still be liable to mistakes as to who is his commander? He was there much longer than Mr Radebe. MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON We thank Ms Moloisane and Ms Thabethe for their assistance that they have rendered to the Panel. We also are eternally grateful to members of the Department of Correctional Services for their accommodation which has been just wonderful. We wish to thank our interpreters who have really been more than accommodative. It is a very difficult thing to translate simultaneously. It requires focus, it requires attention, and it tires one very easily. They have been able to accommodate us throughout the week because we have had to stay much longer than we usually do in order to try and finish our roll that was set down for this venue. We also wish to express our warm gratitude to the media who equally have been extremely accommodative. Our gratitude to our logistics officer Ntheki for the wonderful logistical support that she has offered us during our stay at this venue. I wish to thank the members of the public who are now absent because of the lateness of the hour. They had to leave early because they are from Sebokeng and surrounding districts, and lastly I would like to thank the Members of my Panel for the accommodation that they also gave this matter. It is very difficult to sit, listen, be focused, write notes, as a Committee and their assistance and participation in these proceedings have been indescribable. Thank you very much. Without forgetting the wonderful service which is always offered by our transcribers. They have been also very accommodative. Thank you very much to you all. MS MOLOISANE Thank you Madam Chair. MS THABETHE Thank you Madam Chair. HEARING ADJOURNS