amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-16 JOHANNESBURG JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE, IN THE MURDER OF SICELO DHLOMO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53210&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99021519_jhb_990216br.htm MR MAPOMA My name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader. I call the amnesty application of John Ithumaleng Dube, Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala, Clive Makhubu, Precious Wiseman Zungu. MR KOOPEDI My name is Brian Koopedi. I appear on behalf of all four applicants before you this morning. MR RICHARD I am A Richard. I appear for the Dhlomo family. CHAIRPERSON The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson of ...(indistinct) DR TSOTSI Whitcliffe Tsotsi, attorney Port Elizabeth. ADV SANDI Ntsikilelo Sandi from Amnesty. CHAIRPERSON We will now continue. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson I beg leave to call the first applicant in this matter, John Dube. ADV SANDI Your full names sir? JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE (sworn states) MR KOOPEDI Thank you. Chairperson, I will request that the applicant be seated. May I also mention that he elects to give his evidence in Zulu, and we would request the assistance of an interpreter. May I then proceed Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI Thank you very much Chairperson, we will take that opportunity. CHAIRPERSON Right you may carry on. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI As the Committee pleases. Mr Dube, where do you reside? MR DUBE I reside in Pretoria. MR KOOPEDI Are you employed? MR DUBE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Where are you employed? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Is it correct that you appear with three others today, before this Honourable Committee, whereat you are applying for amnesty for the killing of Sicelo Dhlomo. MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI When did this incident occur? MR DUBE This occurred in 1988 January, if I am not mistaken. MR KOOPEDI Now when it happened, were you a member of a political organisation? MR DUBE Yes, I was a member of African National Congress as well as a member of MK at the time. MR KOOPEDI When did you join the African National Congress and MK? MR DUBE I joined ANC in 1980 and I trained from 1980 doing various courses like general courses and I specialised also in other fields, in the military that is, especially I concentrated on politics. That a person must not be merely a soldier but be a political soldier. MR KOOPEDI Now for the record is MK Umkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the ANC? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Now were you ever deployed by Umkhonto weSizwe? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Now, what operations were you involved in when you were in the country? MR DUBE I have a problem with my earphone, as for now I did not understand what your question was. MR KOOPEDI The question was what operations were you involved in when you were in the country. MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Did you know personally, did you know Sicelo? MR DUBE Yes I did. MR KOOPEDI How did you know him? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Now after him being recruited, that is Sicelo, being recruited into that unit, did he obtain any training? Military training that is. MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Okay. Were you personally involved in the killing of Sicelo? MR DUBE Yes I was. MR KOOPEDI In what way? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI MR DUBE I issued an order. MR KOOPEDI What were the reasons for issuing that order? I presume that is the order that he should be killed, or he should die. MR DUBE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Well what were the reasons for issuing such an order? MR DUBE The reasons that led to this order that Sicelo must be eliminated or be killed first of all were, Sicelo was a member of one of the cells that I used to command. MR KOOPEDI And would there be anything wrong with a person following you or surveilling you? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI What did you suspect? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI You state in your application form that you killed, or you ordered that Sicelo be killed, because he was a police informer. Is that correct? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Yes, please continue. MR DUBE The reason why that had to happen is simply because we have to be protected because we are in a guerrilla warfare here, we are operating underground and we are very few of us, we should at all times try to secure our position, and fight against, and protect ourselves against the people we are fighting with. I furnished that kind of explanation to them, and I further on told them that what has just happened must not be broadcasted, in other words it must lie low within us or amongst us. MR KOOPEDI Now why did Clive be the one who shot Sicelo? Did you give such an order? Is there reason why, when there were four of you, is there a reason why he was the one who shot him? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI So if I understand you correctly Clive was somewhat a person responsible for this unit and you would be overall responsible for this unit and other units as commander. MR DUBE Yes, that is correct. He was a commander of that cell specifically and other cells as well. MR KOOPEDI MR DUBE I will explain by way of saying what happened here was I was infiltrated here in South Africa as a member of special ops, and I acquired experience in terms of underground operation that I used to do or conduct, and now I was in a situation where I was mandated. First when I came back I used to receive orders at first as to what should be one, where should we refrain, in such a way that the way I used to operate now I was now in authority, in authority to choose the targets and use my own discretion, and pick on things and set the plans or actions to be executed, in other words, I was, I had the mandate. CHAIRPERSON I take it that was only to do acts in furtherance of the policies of the ANC, you did not have a mandate to pick targets that you chose that fell outside those chosen by the ANC? MR DUBE Very true. MR KOOPEDI After this incident did you report this matter to anyone, that is your superiors in the organisation? MR DUBE Yes, I did. MR KOOPEDI Where did you report? To whom did you report? MR DUBE I reported to Lusaka, to comrade Aquino. He was a member of the, one of the commanders of special corps. MR KOOPEDI When you say you reported in Lusaka, did you go there, or did you phone there, did you write a letter, or what happened? Was it a personal thing that you did? ...(gap between tapes) MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI When you reported to him ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry ... How many days after Sicelo had been killed was this when you went to Lusaka to report? MR DUBE If I remember, it was months before I went to Lusaka. I think it was a few months thereafter. MR KOOPEDI Now when you reported to Aquino with whom was he? MR DUBE He was alone at the time. Because he were the only member of the special ops command who was present, and also because our operations were very clandestine. MR KOOPEDI MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Okay, so ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is this in Lusaka this happened? MR DUBE Yes it was in Lusaka. CHAIRPERSON And you say Aquino was the closest in rank and Tommy was the overall commander whom Aquino would have to report to. MR DUBE Tommy was the overall commander of the special ops. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE What I knew was that Tommy was the commander of special ops, what I also knew was that he had once been a member of the auxiliary staff. What that entailed was that he would be in other states, other African states, and would be communicating with cells inside South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Was Tommy Lester Dumakude? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Your co-applicant in the application yesterday who was sitting in this hall with you? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE I knew him by his comrade name Tommy. I did not know that he was Mr Dumakude at that time. CHAIRPERSON But you knew it today. MR DUBE I learned of it when we applied for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Yes, last year you learned of it. MR DUBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE Which application are you referring to? CHAIRPERSON The application that was set down for hearing yesterday. The Ellis Park bombing. MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE That is true. The reason being that firstly I did not know, or was not aware, whether the other comrades with whom I performed the operations had applied for amnesty or not. I submitted the application regarding Sicelo first, and I had wanted to meet the other comrades and discuss the matter. MR KOOPEDI Now, considering the facts, and given the chance, you know if we were to rewind time, would you give such an order today, if you were confronted with a similar situation, would you give such an order today? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI Yes, you did. The ultimate decision that you took, do you think that there could have been other decisions available to you at that stage? MR DUBE MR KOOPEDI MR DUBE Yes, there is. MR KOOPEDI Please go ahead. MR DUBE What I would like to mention, is that as I appear before this Committee I would like to just say were it not for the political situation that was responsible for the death of Sicelo, we would have not taken such a decision. I would also like to say to the Dhlomo family that it was not our intention to kill him, or it was not something that we derived pleasure from, but it was circumstantial. It is actually not something pleasant to talk about, but it was the circumstances that prevailed at the time that actually caused the death of Mr Dhlomo. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that concludes the evidence of the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD My first question, Mr Dube, is how long did you know the deceased before his death? MR DUBE I would not be able to specify the time, because I am not sure about it. But I think I explained before just how I knew him. I knew him through the comrades who were in my cell, Clive and the other comrade. MR RICHARD How often did you make contact with that particular cell? MR DUBE I will try and respond to your question in the following ways. Firstly, I had many cells so it depended entirely on the amount of the workload that I had at the time. Secondly, when I was involved at the initial stages of training I made sure that I was with those trainees every day so I cannot give you a specific answer as to how often, or how much time I spent with them. It depended on the situation. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now, when you say every day with the particular members of a cell, how many days on an end? Is that five days, ten days, a month? MR DUBE I did mention that I cannot specify the days, but the time was not predetermined, it would depend if I had a few hours to spend per day I would do so. It depended entirely on the situation prevailing at the time. MR RICHARD But nonetheless you stand by your argument, your answer that you would train on a daily basis every day for extended periods, if I understand you correctly? MR DUBE Please repeat the question. MR RICHARD I understood, and forgive me if I misunderstood you, to say that you would train the members of your cell on a daily basis for periods of time, and the impression I get is extended periods. CHAIRPERSON That was during the initial training. MR DUBE That is true. MR RICHARD During the period that you trained members of individual cells, you got to know those individuals well. MR DUBE That is true. MR RICHARD MR DUBE There were four. MR RICHARD MR DUBE As I have already mentioned, a person would be recommended and then another person would have to second that, or give evidence to the effect that that person indeed was suitable for the job. I did know that, because as comrades we had to stick together, so that we would be able to work well together and build that morale. That is how I can respond to your question. MR RICHARD MR DUBE As I explained that I was training them so I can say yes I did know them. MR RICHARD And you knew exactly where they lived, their family structures, where they went to school and what their activities were. They would tell you. MR DUBE Yes, they would tell me, but I did not know their parents or their families in person. That was not my responsibility as such. I was the commander of the cell responsible for the duties, activities of the cell. CHAIRPERSON And you were responsible for your own security I take it? MR DUBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE That is correct. MR RICHARD So, my next question is, you say you were trained overseas, in Lusaka, outside the country, in the political and military skills of being an insurgent, an undercover operative. MR DUBE Yes we know about that, because the police were working to recruit people to use them at the time. When I first infiltrated the country I established myself, I had to win the confidence of those people who were inside the country, so that it would not be easy for cell members to be recruited by the police. MR RICHARD MR DUBE In my cell? MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE I did say that. Yes, it is true that people were arrested and detained. CHAIRPERSON Did it not happen to just about every political activist in the country? That at some stage or another they were taken in for detention. MR DUBE Yes, people would be detained. CHAIRPERSON That is what counsel is asking you about. These people who were taken in arbitrarily by the police, detained for questioning, how did you react to that? How did you treat them? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON We were just asking you quite simply Mr Dube, how did you react? How did you treat people after their detention? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Is that the first person you had dealings with who had been detained by the police? MR DUBE Yes, he was the first person with whom I had had close contact. ADV SANDI MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON You seem determined Mr Dube to suggest again and again that people were working for the police. Are you suggesting that the thousands of detainees that have been referred to were thereafter working for the police? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE MR RICHARD Very well. I will return to the point. But now my next question is, as a commander who was responsible for knowing about his men, what did you know about the deceased and his immediate experiences during the periods 86, 87? Were you aware where he went to school? What school did he go to? MR DUBE I knew that he participated in the student activities, he was an activist. MR RICHARD My question was straightforward and simple. Do you know which school he went to at that time? If so, what is the name of the school? MR DUBE No, I do not know. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, I did know that. MR RICHARD Now as a member of Sosco do you know what his activities were? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE No. MR RICHARD Were you in Soweto during May 86? MR DUBE The fact that I was in Soweto did not mean that I knew everything that was going on in Soweto. MR RICHARD Well were you aware ...(intervention) MR DUBE I did not know Sicelo in May 1986. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Well the point about it is that during the period June 86 to November 86 did you know the deceased? MR DUBE I did mention that I did not know him in 1986, I started knowing him in 1987. MR RICHARD Now why that period is important is that the deceased was detained during that period in terms of the emergency regulations. Are you aware of that? MR DUBE MR RICHARD So, is today the first time you hear that during that period the deceased was detained by the state in terms of the then emergency regulations? MR DUBE Because of the number of people that I worked with in Soweto it is difficult for me to say that I do not know whether he was or not, because I worked with a lot of people so that is why I said I do not remember him being detained. MR RICHARD Well do you remember anything about the deceased, in particular about his lifestyle, what he did during his life? ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD I have corroborated that information, it is reliable. MR DUBE I do not remember that incident. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Surely that is precisely the sort of incident you would want to know about if you were recruiting someone for a cell, that the police had detained him on an attempted murder charge, of a teacher? Very relevant background information I would have thought. MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Some things you would want to know before you recruit someone. As I did explain before it happens that you forget. MR RICHARD Proceed. INTERPRETER Can you hear now? MR RICHARD I can now, thank you. MR DUBE MR RICHARD INTERPRETER He said that such information was important. MR RICHARD Sorry can the translator repeat. INTERPRETER Are you on ...(intervention) MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Please go back to the period of June to November 1986. During that period, and this where I was leading to, the deceased was detained and the applicant appears to be unaware of it. Is that correct? Were you aware? The impression I had is you were unaware. MR DUBE What I said is that I do not remember. MR RICHARD You might have been aware, you might now have been aware. MR DUBE That is true. MR RICHARD Now would you be aware that during that period as well that the deceased alleged and claimed that he was assaulted and tortured by means of electric shock and that while undergoing that ordeal he was pressurised by the police to become and informer? Because that was public knowledge at that time. MR DUBE I do not have such knowledge about the deceased. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, I was aware of that. MR RICHARD Now what was said in that documentary? MR DUBE What I knew was that he took part in that documentary but I was not aware of the details of the documentary. MR RICHARD So you do not know what the topic of that documentary was? MR DUBE As I said before, I just knew the title, that it concerned children living under apartheid, but what the contents of the documentary were I was not aware of it. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I was aware of that. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Please repeat the last part of your question. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Are you referring to the allegation that Sicelo had been detained in 1986? MR RICHARD MR DUBE I knew Sicelo from 1987. With regards to his being detained prior to that period, I did not know about it. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Well I am saying that I did not know about it. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, it is important to know about such. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I have already explained that I knew him in 1987, not before that. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE I knew that he used to work at DPSC. MR RICHARD What is the DPSC? MR DUBE I do not remember correctly what it stands for. CHAIRPERSON Now have you forgotten or did you not know? MR DUBE I have forgotten. MR RICHARD What did the DPSC do? MR DUBE I just explained that I do not have information with regards to the activities of the DPSC. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE I did say that I was the overall commander and there was an immediate commander of the cell who was responsible for all of that. I dealt directly with him, except for instances where I had to come and train the cell members. But in most instances the person who was responsible for the cell was the cell commander. MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) did you have under you in Emdeni? MR DUBE Please repeat that. MR RICHARD How many cells did you have under you in Emdeni during 1987, precisely, because that is information that you must remember. It was your responsibility and duty to know how many cells you had. MR DUBE MR RICHARD Five, and how many members were in each cell? MR DUBE Between four and five. MR RICHARD Between four and five. Now how many cells in total did you have under your command? MR DUBE I would have difficulty remembering because I did not operate in Soweto only, so it is difficult to respond to that question. MR RICHARD Was it five or six or ten or 20, or one or two? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE I would have to think about this and actually try and classify areas if you want to know about all of the cells that I controlled. I could just give an estimation of roughly 20. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, that would be the cells in the PWV area. MR RICHARD So that meant on your basis of four or five members per cell there must have been between 80 and 100 in total that you were working with at that time. MR DUBE Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON Now you were in overall commands as I understand it, but the cells were separate units which had their own commanders. MR DUBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE Yes, in most instances I communicated with the commanders of the cells. ADV SANDI Yes but the question is, members of these cells, did they know each other? MR DUBE No, they did not. But sometimes it would happen that people from different cells would know one another. CHAIRPERSON This would just be by chance? MR DUBE Yes. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard. Can you just explain one thing. When the late Sicelo Dhlomo, when his name was proposed as someone who could be recruited to become a member of your cell, what exactly was said about him? What information were you given about him? What were the recommendations, in other words? When the name of Sicelo was mentioned to you as a person who could be recruited, what were the recommendations about him? MR DUBE Firstly, it was mentioned that he has political knowledge. Secondly, that he hates the situation prevailing in the country. Thirdly, it was said that he could maintain a secret. They also said that he seemed to be quite a disciplined person who can be recruited into the cell. MR RICHARD So we return to the fact that at that time your concern was the activities and co-ordination of about 20 cells consisting of 100 people, and you were the person responsible for their activities. Is that not correct? MR DUBE That is correct. MR RICHARD If I ask the question if any one of those cell commanders had a situation arise in his or her cell, was it their duty to get in contact with you and to report the matter of concern? MR DUBE Yes, it would have been their duty, because he was the person who was in contact with the cell members. But this did not mean that other cell members did not have the right or could not initiate contact with their commander, the overall commander. It was difficult for them to contact me, so it would have been their commander who would contact me. MR RICHARD Right, now when did you first meet the deceased? MR DUBE I do not remember precisely when but it was in 1987. MR RICHARD Now what sort of matters would be reported to you as the area commander? Would you be aware of particular members of your organisation who had been prosecuted in Court, and were convicted or acquitted? MR DUBE I gave specific duties to each and every cell. MR RICHARD If one of your men got arrested and charged with attempted murder, would you know about it? MR DUBE Yes I would have known, because we could communicate. MR RICHARD Now would you know that the late Sicelo Dhlomo was acquitted of attempted murder on the 6th of December 1986? Or am I telling you something new? MR DUBE I did say that I was not aware of that. MR RICHARD Now later that year, do you know of any further arrests of the deceased, Sicelo Dhlomo? MR DUBE ...(indistinct) MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON You said later that year. MR RICHARD Sorry Chairperson. After 6 December 1986 into early 87 were you aware of the deceased being arrested again? MR DUBE I am not sure. MR RICHARD Now, if one of your men were arrested and charged with possession of a firearm, would you be aware? MR DUBE Yes, I would knew about it. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Before he knew me? MR RICHARD During the first quarter of 1987. MR DUBE I am not aware of it. MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD ... corrected on that one. Did you know him in the first quarter of 1987? MR DUBE I did explain that I do not remember the exact date. I used to work with many people and it is difficult for me today to remember minor and single incidents that happened a long time ago. Particularly when you have to question me on things that happened prior to my knowing him. MR RICHARD Well, did you know him in June 1987, or October 1987? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Now you speak in your evidence-in-chief of an incident when the deceased was arrested for being in possession of firearms that you gave him, and being released shortly thereafter. When ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD (cont) CHAIRPERSON May, June. MR RICHARD Is that correct? MR DUBE MR RICHARD So when did you ever get to know him better? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Well when was the cell formed? MR DUBE Please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON When was this cell formed? MR DUBE In 1987? CHAIRPERSON When in 1987? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So presumably the cell was in existence. MR DUBE This is why I also say I have no clear recollection of this. It may have been that the cell was in existence already, but Sipho and Clive would help me in this one if they remember very well. CHAIRPERSON You see why I regard it as important. You have told us that when you formed a cell you would come and give it training daily. When you established a cell you would train the members and this would be a daily procedure over a period. MR DUBE What I think I could note in as far as this is concerned, is the period of four months. CHAIRPERSON Would you train them for a period of four months? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON That he was recruited? MR DUBE Yes. But the problem I have now is in relation to the time, the months to be exact. MR RICHARD By October 1987 it is correct that you knew the individual members of this particular cell and had a working relationship with them. Is that correct? MR DUBE Yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD Now we go back to the DPSC, the Detainees Parents Support Committee. Does that help you? MR DUBE Yes, in reminding as to what those words stand for, yes it helps me. MR RICHARD Now what did they do? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD Now earlier this morning you said that your training and purpose in the country included the objective of political activities as well as training in weapons and missions and operations. When you used the world political what do you mean? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE First of all I did attempt to explain why I came back here. I came back here for simple reasons of fighting. As I was in special ops my main task was to recruit cells, train them, and pull up their operations effectively. Mainly I concentrated on those things, plus security of all the comrades, or all my comrades and myself included as far as I was or I am concerned. MR RICHARD MR DUBE What I did I will decide like for instance that he was also involved or he took part in the student organisations at the time, and I will withdraw them from such activities so we could concentrate on one effort, fighting that is. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD So, now, you say that the commander of the cell was the third applicant, Clive Makhubu. Is that correct? MR DUBE Clive Makhubu yes. MR RICHARD How often did you see him? MR DUBE MR RICHARD So that means if it was May, June when you first started training that cell, is that correct? How long would that day to day contact have been? CHAIRPERSON He started training the cell ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER MR RICHARD When did you start training that cell? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Were you ever in day to day contact with the deceased while training him? MR DUBE At the time of training yes, I did. MR RICHARD And for how long did that training go on? Was it months, days, weeks? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE ADV SANDI Yes but the essence of the question her Mr Dube is, by the time Sicelo joined the cell, which you said was already in existence by May, June, July, when you met him for the first time, Clive and Sipho, had they received training by then? MR DUBE ADV SANDI Who was the last person to join the cell? Did anyone join after Sicelo? MR DUBE The last one was Sicelo. CHAIRPERSON Precious had joined before him, had he? MR DUBE Precious joined before him. CHAIRPERSON And did he receive training before him? MR DUBE If I memory serves me well, I trained them at the same time. CHAIRPERSON So there were just the two them who received training from you on a daily basis? MR DUBE You see, Clive and Sipho were already senior to them in as far as training was concerned, and they joined the cell subsequently. First there was Wiseman, Precious and Sicelo. Then I collaborated this whole thing, because my intention was to get Clive to be able to train others as well. ADV SANDI Did Clive take part in the training of Sicelo? MR DUBE No, he did not take part in training. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I would think so. MR RICHARD Would you know about them? MR DUBE No. MR RICHARD So if I mentioned names like Reggie, Reginald, Andries, Timothy, Coulat, would you remember those people? MR DUBE Please repeat those names again. MR RICHARD Reggie, that was his nickname at the time. MR DUBE You mean Reggie? MR RICHARD Yes, do you remember the name? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Sandile Edgar Bikani. MR DUBE MR RICHARD And Promise Khosa? MR DUBE I do not know him. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD Now, do you recall any incident relating to the deceased that month? MR DUBE Like what for instance if I may ask? MR RICHARD Was he, did anything happen to him that month? MR DUBE What happened to him in October was the fact that he was arrested as I explained earlier on in my evidence. October 1987. MR RICHARD And when else was he arrested? MR DUBE October 1987. He was arrested in 1987, October. MR RICHARD I know that. Now was he ever arrested on any other occasion post October 1987, or detained, or made contact with the police? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON What was ...(intervention) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON What was he arrested for in October? MR DUBE What I know is he was arrested at DPSC office, where they found Makarov pistol and F1 and grenade in his possession. INTERPRETER Please activate your microphone. MR RICHARD Who supplied you with that information? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Now when did that, now was there anything else about that arrest that was particular? Was he injured in it? Was he treated well by the police? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Did this also feature prominently in the media at that time? MR DUBE You mean his arrest? CHAIRPERSON And his release? MR DUBE That he was arrested with arms was not disclosed, in the media that is, but as to his arrest that he was arrested and subsequently released after a few hours, that featured. CHAIRPERSON So, but counsel asked you how you knew about his arrest, and you said it featured prominently in the media. You say there was no mention in the media of arms. MR DUBE Maybe I have omitted something that I should have explained. Clive, looked for me after he discovered that Sicelo had been arrested there at DPSC. And it was after I realised also from the news I went to him with regard to this matter. CHAIRPERSON Who did you go to? MR DUBE To Clive. Because he communicated with me in this regard that there is an emergency, he needs to see me, and I went to him. CHAIRPERSON And this was in October 1987 you say, it was prominent in the media. By that you mean the local newspapers do you? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Because I think we should arrange to have enquiries made as to what appeared in the media in that month. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Please repeat your question. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Possibly, yes. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Captain, there were a couple of precise things you said. This arrest, as far as your concerned, certainly took place at the offices of the DPSC. Correct? Yes or no. MR DUBE According to my knowledge yes. MR RICHARD The next thing you say is it was in the press and that you read about it. Is that correct? MR DUBE Yes, I did say that. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Because I put it to you that he was not arrested at the DPSC in October 87 at all, at any stage. Can you contradict me on that one? MR DUBE Yes I would contradict you on that point. MR RICHARD I would say it happened in January 88. MR DUBE I am maintaining the fact that Sicelo was arrested with Makarov pistol, that he got from me, and F1 hand grenade in October, 87 that is. MR RICHARD MR DUBE INTERPRETER Please activate your microphone Judge. CHAIRPERSON At the DPSC offices? MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON You said he was arrested at the offices of the DPSC. MR DUBE MR RICHARD I put it again as a matter of fact and record that there were no newspaper items in October 1987 dealing with the arrest of Sicelo Dhlomo. None at all. And therefore you could not have read that in October 1987. MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD But then you read of his detention in the press. Is that correct? You said so. MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Well how did you know that he had been arrested in possession of a Makarov pistol and a hand grenade and been released a few hours later? MR DUBE That I was told by him on the day we shot him. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON You remember that a few minutes ago in your evidence you told us, on oath, that he was arrested at the DPSC office where they found a Makarov pistol and a hand grenade in his possession. MR DUBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE What I did not explain I think, here, is to put together the aspects that Sicelo is the one who told me that day as to where those things were. Now my explanation combines these two things, as I am again saying that after his arrest I did not have or build any conclusions that he will be shot or what. I only took that decision on that day when he came to us. ADV SANDI What, Mr Dube, what exactly did Sicelo say to you had happened to his weapons, the Makarov and the hand grenade? MR DUBE What he said to me was they were confiscated by the police. ADV SANDI Where were they confiscated? MR DUBE One other thing he made mention of was the fact that he was at John Vorster. ADV SANDI Did he say to you when he was arrested at the DPSC offices he had these weapons with him? Is that what he told you? MR DUBE ADV SANDI Before he told you that, what did you think had happened to those weapons? MR DUBE ADV SANDI So it seems to me that the situation must have been that until the day he told you what had happened to the weapons you were all along assuming that he must have been arrested with the weapons, or he must have taken the police to the place where he was keeping the weapons. Is that correct? MR DUBE To tell the honest truth, I was confused, I did not know what the position was in relation to the weapons and it was a bit difficult for me to draw any conclusions as such. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD DR TSOTSI What date was that? MR RICHARD MR DUBE Were you posing a question to me. MR RICHARD Do you know anything about that incident? MR DUBE I bear no knowledge of that. MR RICHARD Now, do you know that Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala, the second applicant, and the accused, sorry, the deceased, were good friends. MR DUBE Yes, that I know. MR RICHARD In fact they had been very close friends for a long time, for a number of years. MR DUBE That is what I know. MR RICHARD Now during that period when you say the deceased was missing and you did not know where he was, did it ever occur to you to ask Mr Tshabalala to go to his home and find out? MR DUBE He was in the same state as us. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean he was in the same state as us? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Is that not an obvious reason to go to his parents and try to find out where he was MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE I was trying to say that. I was trying to explain that. I was trying to say exactly what I said, by so saying. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. Now, if I were to call Mrs Dhlomo, she would say that Sipho was treated like one of the family. He ate there regularly, he had meals there regularly, and she would also say that while her son might not have stayed at home continuously he was in constant contact, there was no secret where he was, he was attending to his normal activities, doing the DPSC and Sosco and SRC, moving around the township, visiting people in Baragwanath Hospital, giving them money, ...(indistinct), would you say you were unaware of all that? MR DUBE As I had said earlier on that I only knew Sicelo through Sipho and Clive. So that would mean Or will explain that they attended the same school and they were friends as well. MR RICHARD Do you know Joe Klaweli? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD And ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard, how do you spell the name of this person? MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD But to return to the October incident as you referred to. You are still certain that you did read about it in the press. You stand by that answer? MR DUBE What I said was in October, it may very well happen that I read the newspaper in January, or October for that matter, but I did say that I cannot recollect all the incidents, especially in their sequence, and my problem then was finding Sicelo and find out as to where he was at the time that was, my mind was preoccupied by that. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE That I said. CHAIRPERSON In October? MR DUBE Yes, I also said it happened in October. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE MR RICHARD Did you make any approaches to the DPSC or request any of the cell members to make contact with the DPSC if you were so concerned? MR DUBE MR RICHARD ADV SANDI MR DUBE ADV SANDI So what was going to be done to find out where Sicelo has gone to? MR DUBE ADV SANDI Do you know if anyone of you such as Clive, do you know if anyone of them ever went to the family to find out where this gentleman has gone to? MR DUBE ADV SANDI Did you personally ever ask your comrades from your cell if they have taken any steps to find out about the whereabouts of Sicelo? MR DUBE ADV SANDI What did they say? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Thank you. You say that you felt it was inappropriate for either you or one of the cell members to approach the offices of the DPSC. Why do you make that statement? MR DUBE Firstly I mentioned that we were involved in underground structures of MK, and it was difficult for me to take a decision that one of us should go there because I thought if that person was arrested that would be another problem for us. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE No. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I do not know. MR RICHARD Now, I return to your sworn statement, page 10 of the bundle. Does the witness have a bundle? He has not. At paragraph 4, you make this statement "...The circumstances that led myself, Sipho Tshabalala, Clive Makhubu and Singon Gensini Zungo to take a decisive decision to eliminate Sicelo Dhlomo were as follows -" It is the typed statement at the back, page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 4. Have you? MR DUBE I see it. MR RICHARD Now, who took down that statement? MR DUBE I wrote it. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, I wrote that. We agreed together. But that is not so. The reason why I mentioned this was because these were all members of the cell, and this happened, we were all aware of what was happening, and it was a situation that puzzled and worried all of us. And also for the fact that we were all present when Sicelo was shot. Those are the reasons why I put it that way. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, that is what the paragraph says, but I am the person who took the decision. I wrote it in this way because I was trying to explain that we were all involved as members of the cell. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I knew about that but I had asked Clive to phone them, that is after Sicelo had surfaced. He was at his home. MR RICHARD And where was Clive? MR DUBE I was with him at his house. MR RICHARD At what time? MR DUBE I arrived at his home between two and three in the afternoon. MR RICHARD And where is that house? MR DUBE MR RICHARD I read from a statement given by Sipho to his attorneys on the 28th of January 1988, he there says MR DUBE No, I do not know anything about that. MR RICHARD In that case you would say that Sipho Tshabalala is misrepresenting his story in this statement which was taken in January 1988? MR DUBE ...(indistinct) what he said, but I do not know anything about that. MR RICHARD Now, on the day that you shot him, what was Sicelo Dhlomo wearing? MR DUBE I cannot remember. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Now, when you described finding something on his person, earlier today, where on his clothing was this apparatus? MR DUBE It was on the left side of his waist. MR RICHARD On the left side of his waist. What did it look like? MR DUBE It looked like a walkie talkie. MR RICHARD Then why earlier today did you say it was in his pocket? MR DUBE I did not say it was in his pocket. I said I saw something bulging. That is what I said. I said I saw something bulging. CHAIRPERSON My note says, and it be checked from the record, "...as I was questioning him I saw something in his pocket. I asked him what it was and he said nothing." ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER MR RICHARD Now, why this morning did you say pocket? MR DUBE I can say that it may have been a mistake, because one other thing that I did not explain was that he had wrapped this apparatus with a brown masking tape. He had wrapped it around his body. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I mean that it was stuck around his waist with a masking tape. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON When you took this walkie talkie from him did you take this strap that was all round his waist too? It was strapped to his skin round his waist. MR DUBE Yes, that is what I did. MR RICHARD Now, how big was this thing? MR DUBE MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE MR RICHARD "...While I was discussing the issue with him I decided to search him," You with me? Now, you then say: "...of which I asked permission from him and he never refused. While I was searching him I discovered small transmitter radios." MR DUBE Yes, I asked him what was that bulging and I asked that I should see it, and he agreed. That was when I unstuck this item from him. MR RICHARD Now could it have been an ordinary cassette recorder? MR DUBE It was not a cassette recorder, because I know one-way transmitter radios. It was something that I knew. I knew what it was and what it did. MR RICHARD But what else did he have with him when you searched him? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Did you search him thoroughly, in other words, all his pockets, the contents of everything? MR DUBE I removed this transmitter from him, and then I just felt him around to check if he did not have a gun, and then I threw this on the ground. I then removed the batteries. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE Yes, that is it. MR RICHARD Now, did you find any money on his person? MR DUBE I do not remember, because I did not search his pockets. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I do not know anything about the money. MR RICHARD Because on one version I will tell you that no money was found on his person after he was shot, and it would seem that somebody killed him for money. Now, so you say you have no knowledge of that money there. MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD Do you remember anything about a radio cassette on the deceased at the time that afternoon that evening? MR DUBE Nothing. He did not have a radio cassette on him. MR RICHARD What time that afternoon did you meet up with the deceased, according to your version? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE What I know is that I saw Sipho in the afternoon, it was already dark, that is after Clive had fetched him and I was with Sicelo. MR RICHARD So this statement made to the attorneys is wrong. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, may I interrupt. I am not privy to the statement that my learned friend is using. I would wish to have a copy of such statement. MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHN IDMEL DUBE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD (cont) For the sake of the record I would like to put in that this statement emanates from a pile kept at the historical documents section of the William Cullen library at the University of the Witwatersrand. It was amongst the papers together with a post mortem report prepared by the late Dr Gluckman. Mr Pigou gave a copy of it to Mr Moime last week, so, may I proceed. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Captain, during the adjournment, did you have an opportunity to read the document? Exhibit A? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER MR RICHARD Have you finished reading it? MR DUBE I have not. CHAIRPERSON Well should we take the adjournment then, and allow the applicant to continue reading it? MR RICHARD And I suggest we start at quarter to two, subject to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We will now adjourn until a quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD (Cont) Mr Dube, have you had a chance to read that statement that I gave you before lunch? INTERPRETER Please activate your microphone. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD So are you saying that your comrade Mr Tshabalala lied? MR DUBE What I will say is that he will explain himself as to what, under what circumstances he wrote and furnished this statement. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard, just one thing which is not very clear to me. There seems to be two signature appended to the statement. The first one, it appears to be the signature of Tshabalala. Are you able to say anything over the second one? MR RICHARD MR DUBE I did not say that. MR RICHARD Where was he fetched from? MR DUBE What I said ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Did he say he was fetched from anywhere? You said he arrived at the house. MR DUBE ...(indistinct) MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Do you know where he came from earlier that day? Do you have any idea? MR DUBE No, I do not. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Now, is it near or far from where the deceased lived? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Now, what time was this? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Was it daylight or night time? MR DUBE It was just before dusk. MR RICHARD Now, at paragraph 5 page 11, after you searched him you say you took the transmitter and left him. What do you mean by that statement? MR DUBE What I was explaining here was that, after I had removed the transmitter I just moved it a little further away from him, and then I threw that transmitter on the floor. That is what I meant, not that I left him. MR RICHARD But then in the next sentence you say "...I immediately ...(indistinct) to the three cell members in Emdeni" MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Why did you write something that was completely wrong? Why did you say "...I immediately rushed to the three cell members in Emdeni"? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE You mean when I say what? MR RICHARD When you say you left the deceased and then rushed off somewhere else to the three members, to the three cell members. You say that this is incorrect? You stayed with the deceased. MR DUBE What appears here, you mean what appears here? MR RICHARD Yes. MR DUBE As I said, this is a mistake. What I wrote here is a mistake. MR RICHARD Now, you then proceed in the same paragraph to say "...I found them also having suspicions about Sicelo Dhlomo." What were those suspicions that they had, not you had? MR DUBE First of all Sicelo had disappeared from us. We did not know his whereabouts or where he was. Now that brought a series of questions to us. We did not know the position. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I will not dispute that, because I have no knowledge regarding that. DR TSOTSI Just one question I want to put to you. Is it possible that at the time that you missed Sicelo, he was in prison? MR DUBE DR TSOTSI But is that possible? MR DUBE It could have been possible. MR RICHARD Now, when you say you missed him, what was the period of that year that you found him not available? MR DUBE As I said earlier on, that after his arrest in October, subsequently he disappeared. He disappeared until around January when he presented himself back to us. MR RICHARD Because, for the benefit of the Committee, I can say he was not in detention in October, November, for any lengthy period. But the period of long detention was earlier in the year, when it appears that was June to November. During that period there was a three month period of detention, in 86. CHAIRPERSON Is the position now ...(intervention) INTERPRETER Please activate your microphone. CHAIRPERSON Is the position now that he had had no dealings with you, Sicelo Dhlomo had had no dealings with you for three months, you or any other member of this group? MR DUBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON If he had wanted to give information to the police he could only have given information that was three months old. MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON If he had given information to the police they had had three months to act on it. MR DUBE Yes, that is true. CHAIRPERSON And yet you now, when you suddenly saw him after this gap of three months, decided you must kill him immediately. Why? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE Here I will address the fact that I was the one present, and a commander as well of the comrades that is, and this thing happened in front of me, in my presence, in my hands as well. It would have been quite difficult for me to give up on him and let go of him like that, because this includes many other things. ADV SANDI Just to follow up something on this. You had mentioned Mr Dube, that you saw Sicelo at Diepkloof. When was that? Was that during the three months period he had disappeared? MR DUBE No, that happened prior to that, as I explained. ADV SANDI Was that before he was detained and released? MR DUBE This happened before the October incident of his detention, as I explained this morning. ADV SANDI You went on to say he was hiding himself. What did he do, how did you go about hiding himself when you saw him there at Diepkloof? MR DUBE When you appear as a person and he would realise that I have already seen him and he will disappear and hide, go into hiding. ADV SANDI Did you call him to, did you say to him he should come and talk to you? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Did you never ask him to explain? MR DUBE I once asked him. ADV SANDI What did he say he was doing there? MR DUBE The answer he gave me was he had gone there to see a certain friend of his. ADV SANDI You seem to be quite suspicious about the circumstances in which you had met him. What kind of place was this Diepkloof? What is happening there? Who else was there? What time of the day was it? Why were you suspicious about seeing him there? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON You just told us that you once asked him to explain and he said that he had gone there to see a friend of his. Is that the only occasion that you got an explanation from him? MR DUBE If my memory serves me well, that was not the only occasion. I think it happened twice, asking him, that is. CHAIRPERSON And did he give another explanation? MR DUBE The explanation he gave me was the same, very same one he furnished to me. CHAIRPERSON That he had gone to see a friend? MR DUBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You see, this morning when you told us about this, you said the explanation he gave you was that he was driving around. MR DUBE You mean as I was asking him as to what he wanted there? CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE MR RICHARD To continue on that line, if I say to you that early in 1987 there were suspicions about your integrity and the possibility that you were an informer, would you know anything about that? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Please repeat the last part of your sentence. MR RICHARD What is odd about the late Sicelo Dhlomo being seen going around Soweto? He was an active person. MR DUBE Earlier on in my evidence I did explain that out of all the cell members while I explained some guidelines to the cell members that each time a person will leave, the others should know their whereabouts, but that did not happen. That brought questions to my mind. DR TSOTSI Did the members of the unit live together, at the same place? MR DUBE DR TSOTSI And are you saying that if a member wants to go and visit his friends somewhere, he would have come get permission from the commander? Is that what you are saying? MR DUBE Not in that fashion, but at least for courtesy reason you should report as to where you will be going and when. Not necessarily to be granted permission as such. DR TSOTSI ...(indistinct) report to whom? MR DUBE NO SOUND DR TSOTSI Were there any rules set out, setting out the limitations of movement of members? Apart from the rule that they must know, one must know where they ... were there any other limitations on the movement of members? MR DUBE The gist of this whole this was to be accountable, so that you know and you are fully aware of the activities of the cell members more than anything. CHAIRPERSON How far are Mboyeni and Diepkloof from where he lived in Emdeni? MR DUBE Please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON How far are Mboyeni and Diepkloof from Emdeni? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Well Diepkloof, how far is that from Emdeni? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE As I said, these guidelines we had set for ourselves, or I had set for them, to an extent that when one leaves one point to the other he must at least report that to other cell members, in case of accidents and other things that might transpire we should be aware, fully aware, of what was happening of the position. CHAIRPERSON What did the other cell members do? MR DUBE In relation to what, if I may ask? CHAIRPERSON Did they work? MR DUBE They had just completed school. CHAIRPERSON Did they work? MR DUBE No they were not working. CHAIRPERSON So they were all sitting around at home? MR DUBE Yes. But they will go to school to learn although they are not full time registered at school. CHAIRPERSON So were they still going to school? MR DUBE I will answer this question under uncertainty, but what I know is that, for instance Clive had just completed his matric. CHAIRPERSON When, at the end of 1987? MR DUBE No, beginning of the year. CHAIRPERSON Beginning of what year? MR DUBE 1987. CHAIRPERSON So he finished his matric a year before this incident, Clive did. MR DUBE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And Sipho? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON And Precious? MR DUBE Precious was at home. CHAIRPERSON Doing nothing? MR DUBE What I remember was he was looking for a job. CHAIRPERSON So presumably he was out and about trying to find a job each day. MR DUBE Sometimes yes he would do that, but he will report. CHAIRPERSON And was he supposed to go and report to the others that he was going to go looking for a job today? MR DUBE Yes, he used to report. CHAIRPERSON Why on earth were they interested in this? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON And how would it help to tell? You have just told us that you heard that the deceased was arrested and you did nothing about it for three months. MR DUBE I did apply or administer security measures, that one must not stay at home full time as Sicelo did. It does not mean I did absolutely nothing. MR RICHARD Thank you chairperson. Now we know that Sicelo did go to school. Do you know which school he attended. MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, I know that school. MR RICHARD Where is it? MR DUBE MR RICHARD And where is that in relation to Diepkloof? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Yes. MR DUBE MR RICHARD And the family will say, if need be, that no-one approached them to find out anything. In fact there was no contact from the cell and them, between the cell and them. Does that give evidence of any active search? MR DUBE ADV SANDI MR DUBE We could have been able to do that but as I told, drew attention this earlier on, the first thing that struck my mind was to think highly about the security of the comrades, because I did not know what the position was at the time. ADV SANDI Yes but one could do that without revealing his identity on the public telephone. You just say I want to talk to Sicelo. MR DUBE As I had said, my mind was preoccupied by the fact that I needed to secure my fellow comrades more than anything. CHAIRPERSON But if you needed to secure your fellow comrades, surely it was very important to find out where the deceased Sicelo Dhlomo was and whether he was in the hands of the police, because if he was in the hands of the police surely it was important that you and your fellow comrades should avoid the places known to him which he might mention to the police. MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE The first thing I did was to organise the base in Naledi. That they should be able to stay there. Those, that was the first measure I employed. Secondly it was for them not to be at home at all times. There should be a family member in place to inform them as to the developments at the time. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Whose house is it, or was it? MR DUBE It belonged to one of the comrades that I used to work with in a different cell, because I went to explain to him about the position, or the problem we had encountered. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Joey is the name. MR RICHARD Joe, and he lives in Naledi? MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD Now what went on in this base? MR DUBE This was my base where I used to stay sometimes. MR RICHARD So, when you say it was a base for the comrades, what do you mean? For your cell members. MR DUBE MR RICHARD You said this was a base for your comrades, your cell members. In what way? MR DUBE I did not say that. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Mabulelong. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I did not hear that? MR RICHARD Did Joe have another name besides Joe, did he have a war name? MR DUBE Joe. We called him Joe. MR RICHARD Right, now ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard. Was that his real name, this Joey? MR DUBE Yes, that was his real name. ADV SANDI Did you have a code name? MR DUBE Yes, I had one. ADV SANDI Did Sicelo have a code name? MR DUBE No, he did not have one. ADV SANDI Did Clive and Sipho have code names? MR DUBE What we discussed was if it so happens that we have to go to a certain place we will have to use pseudonyms, but we must not forget such names. However we did not have specific code names in this regard. ADV SANDI Was Sicelo at any stage ever given a code name? Did it ever become necessary for Sicelo to assume a code name? MR DUBE ADV SANDI Yes but that does not answer the question Mr Dube. I want to know did it ever happen at any stage that Sicelo had to be given a code name because you were going to be going to some other place together with him? MR DUBE No, it never happened. ADV SANDI Thank you. Sorry Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Talking of code names and nicknames. The name Rambo, does that ring a bell to you? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR RICHARD Commander? MR DUBE MR RICHARD And your names, you were variously known as Pat, is that correct? Silver. MR DUBE Silver was not known, but Pat was a name that was known. MR RICHARD So which one of the names did you use at the time? MR DUBE Pat. MR RICHARD MR DUBE First of all, that object was similar to walkie talkie, as I said in the morning. Black in colour, as this. Had an aerial. MR RICHARD How big was the aerial? MR DUBE It could have been long, as the applicant is demonstrating. MR RICHARD About ten centimetres. MR DUBE Roughly, yes. MR RICHARD Now did it have any switches or buttons? MR DUBE On the side it had a switch to use for switching it on or off. It had this on or off button on the side. Also a place for some to insert batteries in. It was a battery operated object. MR RICHARD What size batteries did it take? MR DUBE The small 1.5 volts batteries. Very small ones. MR RICHARD What we call penlights. MR DUBE MR RICHARD Anything else about it? MR DUBE As I said it had an on and off switch on the side, and the aerial. Those are things I particularly remember about this object, and explicitly remember. MR RICHARD What sort of aerial, was it a piece of wire, or a rod? MR DUBE MR RICHARD You took the batteries out of it, why did you take the batteries out? MR DUBE I wanted to establish if it was on or off at that particular time. MR RICHARD And what did you find out? MR DUBE I discovered that it was on. This is why I immediately removed the batteries and threw this gadget on the floor. CHAIRPERSON Did you find out that it was on before you removed the batteries, and before you threw it on the floor? MR DUBE Yes, I found out if it was on or off. I grabbed it and looked at it whether it was on or off and I did as I explained. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I did take a look at this gadget and I did discover it was a transmitter. It meant for me now to check if it was on or off, and soon after that I took off the batteries. As to inspect details like who the manufacturer of this gadget, the inventor of this gadget, I did not have time to do that. MR RICHARD MR DUBE As I said, this was a transmitter. MR RICHARD MR DUBE As I explained, I did not have ample time or enough time to check such details, whether it had a microphone inside, inserted in, or whatever the case, I did not have enough time to look at such. MR RICHARD I put it to you that to come to the judgement that it was a transmitter one of the most important things was to find out whether it was a recording device, a microphone. It has to record, take in the sound. MR DUBE I did not quite follow you. MR RICHARD To put it simply, if this were a transmitter, for it to work it would have to have a microphone. You have not described a microphone anywhere on it. MR DUBE I was only answering the question of whether or not I sat down and inspected this gadget, but I was certain about the fact that this was a transmitter. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I did not talk about whether there was a microphone, but what I said is that I did not inspect this gadget to an extent that I even mentioned anything about the microphone, but I did not particularly say there was no microphone. MR RICHARD MR DUBE That item was similar to the transmitters I knew. MR RICHARD From where did you know these transmitters that you were familiar with? MR DUBE In Angola during the training. MR RICHARD Now, these transmitters that you used there, over what distance could they transmit? MR DUBE They differ. They used to differ. MR RICHARD Well, this particular one. How far would its radius of effectiveness be? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, I would quarrel with that. MR RICHARD On what basis? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD How different was the thing that you found? MR DUBE MR RICHARD You described this device this morning as a walkie talkie. Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE Yes, I will quarrel with that statement, because that I had in my own hands. MR RICHARD Did you as MK use anything like that, if you had been trained on it? MR DUBE It was my first encounter with that one. I had never seen something like that in the past, but the use of walkie talkies, transmitters, I did. MR RICHARD I beg pardon, did you use them in Soweto at that time, in 1987? MR DUBE No. MR RICHARD Had you ever seen one of them in the possession of anyone else at the time, in Soweto? MR DUBE You mean one of them, one of who? MR RICHARD On of these transmitter things that you described. MR DUBE Please repeat that question. MR RICHARD MR DUBE ADV SANDI MR RICHARD ADV SANDI But were they available in the country, according to your investigations? MR RICHARD They were, but INTERPRETER MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD If necessary, which we will see. We will call evidence on what was available or not. However, you took the batteries out and therefore you were certain it was not operative. Why did you find it necessary to break it? MR DUBE The first thing that occurred to me was that maybe somebody was listening to our conversation, that is why the first thing that occurred to me was to break that gadget. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE MR RICHARD You say in paragraph 5 you took the transmitter. Did you show it to the others? MR DUBE What was the question? MR RICHARD 5 on page 11 you say "...I took the transmitter" I presume to the others. Did you show it to them. MR DUBE The person who saw it was Clive because he was the one who was present at the time. MR RICHARD And what happened to it afterwards? MR DUBE I threw it on the floor and I smashed it with a rock, and I threw it away. MR RICHARD Did Dhlomo offer you any explanation? MR DUBE What he told me was that it had been given to him, to keep with him at all times. MR RICHARD Now, you are aware ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Who by? MR DUBE I did not ask him any questions thereafter. CHAIRPERSON Surely when he says to you it was given to me to keep with me at all times you must have said well where did you get it from, who from? MR DUBE As I stated before, that as he had that transmitter, and from the way which he resurfaced, as well as because of the political climate at the time, I felt that I would be, or I could be wasting time to ask too many questions because one could easily end up being in trouble. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE I did ask, but I did not enquire about the specifics. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE He already said that he had been recruited, they had recruited him. CHAIRPERSON Who was he said they had recruited him? MR DUBE His response was it was the police. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Cause you see when you wrote your statement you said "...when I confronted him about these transmitters he said they belonged to this friends." A somewhat different version. You now say ...(intervention) MR DUBE His first response was that it belonged to a friend. That is when - at the point when I removed it from him. So when I explained to him what, that I knew what this device was, it was then that he explained to me that it had been given to him by the police. CHAIRPERSON Who had recruited him? Is that what you said a few minutes ago? MR DUBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE Chairperson, I did make a point before that this incident took place a long while ago. I cannot remember the details specifically, because after the incident I did not record the details about what happened. CHAIRPERSON Are you asking us to believe that you would not have remembered that this man told you that he had been recruited by the police and that that was why you killed him? MR DUBE I did mention that in the morning. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOPEDI Are you asking me Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KOOPEDI MR DUBE That was one of the reasons. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Richard. All in all, Mr Dube, as I understand what flows from your answers in response to the questions by the Chairman, you are now telling us that we should believe that at the time you were preparing this statement which was submitted to the amnesty Committee, you could not remember, you had forgotten, that this gentleman, Sicelo, had told you that he was recruited by the police. You had forgotten that. MR DUBE No, that is why I mentioned it in the statement itself. ADV SANDI It would appear from your evidence this afternoon that you already had the suspicions even before Sicelo was arrested, released, and then disappeared for three months. You already had suspicions about him. MR DUBE As I stated before, I did not know exactly just what was going on. It was a question I had on my mind. MR RICHARD When did you make and prepare this statement, this sworn, this statement sworn under oath as you entitle it. When did you sit down and type it? MR DUBE MR RICHARD According to the information at my disposal, this was in 1997, sometime that year. MR DUBE I would not dispute it, because I do not remember exactly when it was. MR RICHARD And then ...(intervention) ADV SANDI MR RICHARD MR MAPOMA Sorry Chairperson, for the sake of clarity. This statement was submitted together with the amnesty application, but they were all not attested to and signed at the time they were submitted, so they were returned to them to sign thereafter on this date. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR RICHARD Nonetheless, what we now have is a situation that while you were in Shell House in 1997 sitting in your office you wrote this statement. Is that a correct reconstruction? MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD What prompted you to decide then to apply for amnesty? What was your motive? MR DUBE The first reason is that the political situation has changed, we are no longer at, in a situation of war. And in the spirit of rebuilding the country and divulge all that happened during the apartheid era, those were the reasons that prompted me to apply for amnesty. MR RICHARD So you thought very carefully about it and you sat down and wrote the story as you saw it, correct? And then two years later you get asked to attest it, and you have been thinking about the matter, correct? Answer? MR DUBE Yes, I did think about it, but I discovered that there were a lot of details that I did not remember about the incident because there were many other incidents that I had been involved in. MR RICHARD Would you like to tell us about some of those other incidents. MR DUBE ...(not interpreted) MR KOOPEDI May I interrupt Chairperson. I did not understand the question, whether it refers to incidences related to this matter or any other incident that the applicant has ever been involved in. CHAIRPERSON I understood he was talking about other incidents he had been involved in. MR RICHARD I heard the witness say many other incidents. What were those other incidents, those many other incidents? Tell us about some of them. MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON What was the second incident? One was the Ellis Park, what was the second one? MR DUBE The Witbank incident. CHAIRPERSON Witbank? INTERPRETER Witbank. MR RICHARD Because here I have a statement by, a note of what was said, of a debriefing of one Mamasela, and he informed the taker of the notes that MK cadre Silver, would that be you? MR DUBE My combat name is Silver. MR RICHARD And the document reads "...MK cadre Ithumaleng Malinga Silver allegedly responsible for the Ellis Park car bomb, the Hallmark car bomb, the Witbank car bomb, and now allegedly working for the security police." Would you say that information is wrong? MR DUBE What I can at this point is that I am appearing now before this Committee because of the Sicelo incident. I was also involved with the Ellis Park incident. So was I also involved in the Witbank incident, but I do not know about the other incident. MR RICHARD The Hallmark incident was an incident in 1990, where the largest bomb in the history of the struggle was found in a building called Hallmark in Pretoria, before it exploded. For the benefit of the Committee, before I push for an answer ...(intervention) MR DUBE I do not know anything about the Hallmark building. ADV SANDI Mr Richard, just for my clarity, what is the relevance of that incident to the subject matter of these proceedings, the incident in respect of which he has applied for amnesty? MR RICHARD The relevance is that for a particular applicant to obtain amnesty he is compelled and obliged to satisfy seven points, one of which is to make a full and complete disclosure. ADV SANDI Should I understand you to say that he is obliged to incriminate himself in respect of acts where he may have been involved but for which he has not applied for amnesty? MR RICHARD ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Well, I have the debriefing notes of Mr Mamasela. They were taken in 1994 by the Independent Board of Enquiry, and if we go through the various notes, Joe Mamasela has substantially proved truthful in most of the stories that he did say in this debriefing statement. However, CHAIRPERSON You have put them to him. Could you perhaps repeat ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speakers mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON Could you perhaps repeat them so we and his counsel can have an opportunity to list them and his counsel can then if necessary take further instructions from his client. MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) is that he is allegedly responsible for the first one, Ellis Park car bomb, secondly the Hallmark car bomb, thirdly the Witbank car bomb, and thirdly, as at 1994 working for the security police. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOPEDI Chairperson if I may respond to this. I believe that much as an applicant has to give full disclosure for him to get amnesty, but this should relate, the full disclosure relates to a particular matter that is under discussion. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI Yes, I further wish to say that in as far as my learned friend is asking questions which relates to other matters which are still the subject of amnesty hearings, I object to that and will advise my client not to answer those questions because this may prejudice him in the coming amnesty applications, but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Which is the intention. Which is why we do not give decisions until we have heard all the applications. MR KOOPEDI But like I said ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD MR DUBE What I will say, wherever you got that information from, were you informed that that was part of my deployment by the ANC? MR RICHARD I have information that you worked with the security police. Is that wrong? MR DUBE That is not correct. MR RICHARD In what way is it incorrect? MR DUBE Mr Chairperson, I would like to consult with my lawyer. MR RICHARD MR DUBE What I will say is that I do not have a response to your question but I would like to see my attorney. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, if I may be given a half a second, we do not need to adjourn for this. CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Very well Chairperson. I will lead evidence at future points in the hearing that you worked in conjunction with the security police. Do you have any comments, or do you want to amplify, or explain anything in relation to the proposition? CHAIRPERSON Do you want to put a date to that? MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD Prior to 1994. MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE I have no response to that. MR RICHARD In other words you refuse to answer the question. MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON Well I think ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Could perhaps be put more directly in the form of a question, that what he is suggesting to you is that you, the reason you have given for killing the deceased is a false one, and that you organised his killing for the purpose of getting credibility for you in the area while you were working for the police as an infiltrator. That is the question, is it not? MR DUBE Firstly, I believe that it is the first time that people become, actually become aware that I was involved in MK operations, or that, most of them do not know me. What I can say is that I was not seeking popularity. I did not do this for my own benefit. I was actually fighting for this country. MR RICHARD What I do not, Mr Dube, is that you have not denied that you worked for the security police on a date prior to 1994. MR DUBE What I put to you was that I do not have knowledge regarding that, I also said your sources of information where it was explained to you, was it explained to you that it was part of my activities as directed by the organisation? And lastly, there is no other question that I would like to respond to unless it is directly linked or has to do with the issue of Sicelo Dhlomo. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I have made a request before that I should not respond to questions that are outside the issue of Sicelo Dhlomo. MR RICHARD No-one has objected to my question. The Committee has not excused you from answering the question. I believe that your refusal to answer the question can be the basis of only one inference and that is that it is true, that you did tell the researcher, the investigator, that you were at one stage an informer. MR DUBE I repeat, whatever is outside the issue of Sicelo Dhlomo I would not like to respond. MR RICHARD I put it to you that one of the reasonable reasons why the late Sicelo could have been curious about your movements is that he might have had suspicions as to whether you were an informer or not, and he wanted to check up on you, and that it went further, that once you were aware that you were being checked up on your status as an informer for the South African police would have been compromised. And therefore you killed him. MR DUBE That is not true. MR RICHARD MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE Yes, I do deny it. MR RICHARD Were you ever a double agent? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Were you ever a double agent? CHAIRPERSON MR KOOPEDI ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON Let us proceed. MR RICHARD I would like to understand Mr Dube, what your legal representative means when he says you were deployed there. It is correct, you did use that expression. What do you mean by deployed there? MR DUBE MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) not an answer to my question, what do you mean by the word deployed? Who deployed you? When did they deploy you? Where did they deploy you? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD What do you mean by the word deploy? MR DUBE Deploy varies. I will take a person, this is an illustration he is giving, for the purpose of this illustration I will take two opposing groups that are fighting each other. You will know that you will take the people to the front line, deploy them in such a way that you get their plans as to what has to be discussed revolving around that subject, what do they have in mind regarding you. MR RICHARD I understand now that you understand the meaning of deploy. Who deployed you where? When? MR DUBE I will emphasise again or I will reiterate the fact that as I have tried to give you the answer to your question. MR RICHARD MR DUBE As I said earlier on that deploy may vary. ADV SANDI Mr Dube I think this is a very simple question. Were you at any stage ever deployed by anyone, and if yes, who was that, and where was it that you were deployed? MR DUBE With regards to what, if I may ask? CHAIRPERSON The question is a simple one. Were you deployed by anyone in the political field in the context we are talking about, and if so by whom and where and when? MR DUBE What I will explain, or I will attempt to explain here, is that each time I refer to deployment I mean varying situations. One is able to take a person that he works with, or I will take a person that I work with and deploy that particular person to the enemy side so to be able to get information and their plans and their activities, their events. So this deployment I referring to now relates to that effect. CHAIRPERSON So did someone take you and deploy you to the enemy side to get information? MR DUBE I think I have answered this question, because I said earlier on, no. MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR RICHARD None at all. CHAIRPERSON How long with it take? MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER May the speakers switch on their microphones? CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR RICHARD Mr Dube what is your answer? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE ADV SANDI MR DUBE I did try to explain the word deployment, and how it functioned, for a person to find himself deployed, it will happen in such a way that you are in a position to get and gather more information that will be helpful, invaluable information in other words, that will be helpful to the opposing group. ADV SANDI So do I understand, would I be correct to understand that to mean that in 1991 you infiltrated the security police? MR DUBE ADV SANDI These many people you said you are not prepared to mention their names, in what way were they involved in this infiltration of yours of the police in 1991? MR DUBE They were involved in a sense that they commanded me. ADV SANDI Is that to say that they had sent you, or instructed you, to infiltrate the security police? MR DUBE As I explained, that was deployment, yes. MR RICHARD So if Mrs Dhlomo says that in and during 1987 she intervened with you who were in and about her house and said that one Pat, which is your alias, should not be killed as an informer because the evidence was not sufficient in her opinion for such a drastic decision, what would you say? MR DUBE That was up to her. MR RICHARD And then we go to 1991 and we find that the information that was being debated had some substance in it, while people might not have understood it properly, proximity to the police had at that stage become real. Correct? MR DUBE I had said that long time ago. MR RICHARD Now the question is, how did you infiltrate the police and what information did you give them? MR DUBE MR RICHARD You infiltrated the South African police, which is what we hear now. My question to you, is how did you do it? One of the most obvious methods that you used to do it was to give them information so that they would begin to trust you. How did you do it? MR DUBE I have no answer to that question thereon. MR RICHARD So that means this Committee must leave this point on the assumption that you did give the police information that they found useful so that the police would believe you. No reply. MR DUBE I did not get the question. CHAIRPERSON MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON But you confirm, do you, that you had not prior to 1991 worked with the police in any way? MR DUBE As I said, yes. MR RICHARD Now would you be able to produce proof through the ANC that you were so instructed in 1991? MR DUBE Yes. But not now. MR RICHARD Well, who could we call to come and give evidence on it? MR DUBE I have said ...(intervention) DR TSOTSI Mr Richard, excuse me, what would be the purpose of that evidence? MR RICHARD DR TSOTSI ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER DR TSOTSI MR RICHARD In this case the applicants seek amnesty for the killing of Sicelo Dhlomo. They say they were justified in killing the deceased on the basis that he was an informer. Now, once we find that the finger points the other way as well, that this witness was also by and by his own admission involved in informing, the first question we have to ask is when did it start. One can only be highly cynical about any statement that the witness makes. And it is all relevant to the enquiry as to why they killed the late Sicelo Dhlomo. CHAIRPERSON But if you have no other evidence, what is the point of it? You have no evidence, as I understand it, relating to his actions as an informer if there were any such, in 1987. MR RICHARD The only information I have ...(intervention) INTERPRETER MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD And on that I will proceed to a further point. Right. Now we go back to the afternoon evening of the killing. Now, you say that you met up with Sicelo Dhlomo at dusk. Do you know what he had been doing beforehand. As far as I understand, no. MR DUBE MR RICHARD Now, from the time that you met up with him until the time that he was shot, how much time elapsed? MR DUBE As I have already said it was dusk, just before it got dark, or it was dark. It could have been something between two hours, something around two hours. It was summertime and as we know that the day is longer than the evening or the night during summer. MR RICHARD In January we know that the sun sets and it gets dark round quarter past seven. Now, at what time was Sicelo Dhlomo shot? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Was it a short time or a long time after meeting up with him? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Now, after the shooting, where did you go? MR DUBE I left these other cell members. I went to the base. MR RICHARD I beg pardon, did you go to the base or did they go to the base? MR DUBE What happened, we parted ways, I left because I was no residing there as I had mentioned earlier on. MR RICHARD So who went to the base? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Where did you go to? MR DUBE I was staying in Diepkloof. MR RICHARD Where in Diepkloof. MR DUBE In Zone 4. MR RICHARD What time did you get there? MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON How did you get there? MR DUBE I went in a taxi. MR RICHARD So, how long does it take to get there? Half an hour, an hour, quarter of an hour? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE CHAIRPERSON MR RICHARD ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER MR RICHARD While he was with you, the deceased, did you do anything else besides talk to him? MR DUBE Shooting, for instance. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE What I would say is that as you said that besides talking to him what else did we do, I told you we shot him, so that I will not furnish any answer in with regards to your question. MR RICHARD So that means you stand by your answer that you spoke to him for two hours before shooting him, between seven and nine? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE I did not stand next to the body for a long time. I think a minute, one minute was enough. MR RICHARD And did the deceased die instantly? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Because the answers and findings in paragraph 13 and 14 of the post mortem indicate that he took a long time to die. Those are consistent with what they call stress and trauma. MR DUBE MR RICHARD So did the deceased die apparently instantly, according to you? According to you it seemed as if he had dropped down dead instantly. Is that correct? MR KOOPEDI MR RICHARD How was the deceased positioned when he was shot? Was he sitting, standing, was he, you said earlier sitting? MR DUBE Yes. MR RICHARD Now, where was Clive in relation to the deceased? MR DUBE I will say he was seated and there was a tree as I am demonstrating using this pen. He was sitting on this side and I think Clive was on his right-hand side, no left-hand side I mean. MR RICHARD And where in the head did Clive shoot the deceased? MR DUBE If my memory serves me right it was somewhere around left of the head. CHAIRPERSON He's indicated left side of the head towards the top of the head. MR RICHARD Now, after the shooting, did anyone make any effort to pick up the spent cartridge case? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Well an examination of the police docket indicates that no spent cartridge case was found. So do you remember anyone looking for the cartridge case? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD In the late seventies, the ANC began to target specific police officers and perceived collaborators. Initially those killed were former ANC members who had turned state witnesses in political trials. The ANC justified these killings in its second submission because those killed were personnel actively assisting the SAP. Do you think, within that meaning, the killing Sicelo Dhlomo was a legitimate killing? MR DUBE Yes, at the time. MR RICHARD And then, if so, we go to the next thing. Some months later you proceeded to Lusaka and reported the matter, is that not correct? You said so this morning. MR DUBE MR RICHARD Was it before the Ellis Park bomb or after the Ellis Park bomb? MR DUBE After the incident of the Ellis Park bomb. MR RICHARD And on what date did the Ellis Park bomb take place? MR DUBE That happened in July the 2nd. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Hein Grasskopf? MR DUBE Hein Grasskopf. MR RICHARD Thank you. Now in-between you and him who else were you responsible to? MR DUBE You mean between myself and him? MR RICHARD The chain of command between Hein Grasskopf and yourself. MR DUBE MR RICHARD Because immediately after the shooting there were numerous press items and articles on the death of the late Sicelo Dhlomo, and in fact there was an outcry. After the Ellis Park bomb which is over seven months later, you go to Lusaka, why did you take seven months to mention anything because in the meantime the world was misinformed? MR DUBE The situation that prevailed at the time was quite impossible for me to gain access of going out, because you will find Botswana there will be raids that are going on, so it was not quite as easy for me to go anywhere as I wished. MR RICHARD MR KOOPEDI MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Tommy Masinga. Where was he in July in relation to you? MR DUBE In July Tommy Masinga was with me here. MR RICHARD MR DUBE He was the overall commander of the special ops. MR RICHARD And you and he were together in South Africa at the time. Did you tell him about the incident, before going to Lusaka? MR DUBE I did not. MR RICHARD Why not? MR DUBE There was something we were busy with, some mission that ended up to the one of Ellis Park. MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Instead you waited for seven months until, as you say here, at paragraph 6 page 11 "...I then reported the matter to the then immediate commander of special operations, i.e. Tommy Aquino." MR DUBE I did explain this morning with regards to this matter, that I made mention of this in such a way that Aquino told me that he will tell the commander who will give the report to him as Dube was the overall commander. I did explain to this effect in the morning. MR RICHARD MR DUBE ADV SANDI MR DUBE Yes I am aware. ADV SANDI Have you seen the list counsel is talking about? MR DUBE Not the whole list, because there were submissions were divided into parts, like part one, part two, but I did not get to see the entire document. ADV SANDI Did you at any stage become interested whether this particular incident which was carried out by you, whether it did appear in that list? MR DUBE Yes, I was interested. But I told myself that maybe it will come to the surface, or it will be brought to the attention. MR RICHARD MR DUBE Please repeat, what about Witbank? MR RICHARD INTERPRETER Please repeat the last part of your question. MR RICHARD What is the translation of what the ...(intervention) INTERPRETER MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD Well, we make much mention of the word special operations. Would you please tell me what the special operations division of the MK operation was. What is special operations? MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE MR RICHARD MR DUBE No I was only giving you an example. MR RICHARD MR DUBE I will go back and state that there was a need even with regards to the case we are talking about and the special ops which I was a member of. MR RICHARD So when we deal with special ops did you have a mandate to select your own targets? MR DUBE I had the mandate. MR RICHARD How did you select ...(intervention) MR DUBE But I only got the mandate after I acquired experience about the operations ...(indistinct) outside the country, as well as to mention that the mandate I had, part of the mandate I had, was enabling me to train and recruit and train people, in that order. MR RICHARD So, who decided, to take an example, that the Witbank bomb should happen or not happen? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Did you make the decision? MR KOOPEDI The witness has ...(intervention) MR RICHARD When it comes to your own mandate, where and when were you told what your mandate was, as to what to do? Was it while you were in South Africa, or while you were in Lusaka? MR DUBE MR RICHARD Were you ever taught the MK military code? MR DUBE I did not hear the question. MR RICHARD Were you ever taught what the MK military code is and what it says? I have a copy of it here, would you like to see it? ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It seems as if we're going to be a long time ...(indistinct) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON What time do you ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI Half past two. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) NO SOUND COMMITTEE ADJOURNS