amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-02-23 BOKSBURG 2 JOHN SITHOLE AM 5971/97 ZEVENFONTEIN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53226&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99022225_bks_990223bk.htm MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. Just a slight amendment to the roll. We will now commence with John Sithole, amnesty application number 5971/97. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, I call Mr John Sithole. CHAIRPERSON JOHN SITHOLE (sworn, states). CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Claassen. EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sithole you are today the applicant in an amnesty application before this Committee relating to an incident that occurred on the 12th of February 1994. Mr Sithole, at the time of this particular incident, were you a member, or affiliated to any political party? MR SITHOLE Yes, I was a member. MR CLAASSEN In what capacity? MR SITHOLE I was an induna. CHAIRPERSON What were you a member of? MR SITHOLE I was an IFP member, Inkatha that is. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole, you, together with your application, submitted a supplementary affidavit stating, and also in very broadly preceding incidents relating to this situation in Zevenfontein prior to what happened there, could you just, in your own words, elaborate a bit on the background in Zevenfontein. What had happened. What Zevenfontein was like before this incident occurred, and what gave rise to the conflict which was apparent in Zevenfontein at that stage. MR SITHOLE We had a meeting at Zevenfontein, that we shall go and request a land, or some land, to build on, because there were people who had built towards the river, Jukskei River that is, and that was put next to the electricity or electricity wires, so to speak, and that was interfering with the settlers there. And we decided we should march, and head to Randburg, and we all agreed on this, and indeed we marched. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Sithole, when you say we had a meeting, and we agreed to march, are you talking about the community of Zevenfontein, all the people there, or is it just the IFP portion of that community? MR SITHOLE The whole entire community. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole could you just explain to the Committee, what was the political situation at that stage? Was it already politicised? What was the political atmosphere like in Zevenfontein at that stage? MR SITHOLE We were living so well in the area. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Claassen to keep interrupting, but Mr Sithole, just to give us some idea, we know that the incident took place you say on the 12th of February 97. When was this meeting in relation to that date? Was it a year before, or many months before, or days, weeks before? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed please. MR SITHOLE MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole could you just explain to the Committee, you keep talking of we, was this a community forum of some sort? And what was your role in this forum? MR SITHOLE The entire community. I am referring to the entire community when I keep saying we. MR CLAASSEN And what was your role, did you, were you bearer of any specific office in this community? MR SITHOLE I was an ordinary person at the time. MR CLAASSEN Please continue. MR SITHOLE I went to work, as I already said. As I was passing the TPA, heading towards the tar road, I saw the ANC youth wearing the ANC attire, clothing, and they greeted us, together with my colleague. We went to fetch some water and we came back with water, and I poured some water right around the squatter camp. Just before I got off from work, people who had gone to Randburg were also back, and it was after work and we had another meeting. Then the people from Randburg were giving report, and they told us that we have been promised a piece of land and they will be coming to sit with us. And I had complaints that I wanted to air to the ANC people, with regard to the demonstration they carried on that morning, because we agreed as a group that we will not wear any political clothes, and they did exactly that themselves in the morning. And they said anyone is entitled to do what they want to do. So that was so obvious to me that they were now bringing up some division in the community, so it meant we could affiliate with our group and they could affiliate with theirs, and act according to our groups. And we went to find out as to who was the leader of the group. We tried and located the leaders of IFP. We got hold of Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu as well. They agreed that they would be meeting with us shortly. Indeed they came, and they came to launch, and they said we are now officially a launched IFP group, and IFP is not a group that will charge forward and fight against other people or against other groups. We shall be peacefully maintaining stability as an IFP group in the area. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole you indicated that it was difficult for you to estimate how long before this incident this IFP, or this IFP branch, was established. Could you, more or less in terms of months or years, how long before this 12th of February 1994 was the IFP in Zevenfontein established? MR SITHOLE MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Sithole, please continue. MR SITHOLE Now they said that we shall not go and attack people and start on people in any way. If they do that to us, myself as induna, official induna, I should take it upon myself to go to the opposing group and sit down and discuss what had happened, and we should be always be protecting the group and defending the group, so to speak, and time went on. MR CLAASSEN MR SITHOLE I was induna. CHAIRPERSON Sorry to interrupt Mr Claassen. What sort of induna were you? Were you induna weSiswe, what kind of induna were you? MR SITHOLE I was an induna of the IFP group that was established in the area. CHAIRPERSON Were you responsible for calling the young men together? Putting together amabuto if necessary? MR SITHOLE I would call amabuto. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole could you please continue, and just explain when this conflict started, and how it escalated to the point that this incident occurred. MR SITHOLE And Randburg came to point out a place that was to be designated for the people in the area. I think five shacks were removed, and on daybreak there were many shacks on the other side that was designated by the police. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole could you just explain this question of the shacks. Where were they to be moved from, and where to, and how was this decided? MR SITHOLE It was Randburg that made the decision, saying that these people are around the river and they are not safe during floods. And they also were living under these electric pylons or poles, which were not safe. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole, so if I understand you correctly, the people were now squatting where they were not supposed to squat, and this Mr Majola you referred to, who was he at that stage? MR SITHOLE And we had to meet with the community again, and I suggested we would meet on a Friday, and they said they will not be available on Friday. And I said to them, if you will not be available on Friday, then you should come up with a date and convene such a meeting. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole, if you could, could you more or less indicate was this incidents that were happening now, was this a long time before the day of the shooting, or was this now being in the close vicinity approximately of this? MR SITHOLE It was before the shooting. It was long before the shooting. MR CLAASSEN What happened then? MR SITHOLE They then suggested that the meeting be held on Saturday, and we agreed on that day. And it so happened that on Friday, just before it was Saturday, it was on Friday around dawn, I was using this truck, filling in water in the tanks, and there came the ANC youth, who said to me that I was being called. I went to the youth and when I got there I met with a group of people who were armed with all assortment of weapons, axe, knobkerries, etc. And they ...(intervention) MR LAX MR SITHOLE They had spears, axe, MR LAX What is akes, oh axe. Okay. Please continue, sorry to interrupt. MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN This would be convenient. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA May I ask your indulgence and ask one of the victims to sit next to me so that I could discuss issues. CHAIRPERSON Certainly Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cachalia. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, that is as I had it. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHN M SITHOLE: (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN (Cont) CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE Yes. It was before the incident of the shooting. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole was it the night before? MR SITHOLE Yes, the night before. MR CLAASSEN Could you please continue. What happened then, after that? MR SITHOLE ADV SIGODI MR SITHOLE MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole you just now said that you wanted to enquire why they were killing you. What exactly did they do? What happened then? MR SITHOLE MR LAX MR SITHOLE The word that they uttered to me in their response was that these are shebeen matters. And I wanted to enquire further as to what happened at the shebeen. They said they had no knowledge. And I said to them, please go back to the office and enquire further as to what had happened. If it, the blame, was with the IFP people, then I would collect them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sithole could you just explain. You said, they said that this was shebeen matters. Was this the reason that they gave why they attacked you? MR SITHOLE Yes, that was the reason, although they later on refuted that and denied, and said in fact they did not know. MR CLAASSEN You also mentioned they should go back to the office to get the proper facts. What office are you referring to? MR SITHOLE I was referring to their office. MR CLAASSEN Which office is this? MR SITHOLE That is an ANC office. MR CLAASSEN What happened then? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Who stoned you? MR SITHOLE The ANC people. CHAIRPERSON And where did the gunshot come from? MR SITHOLE From the ANC group. MR CLAASSEN MR SITHOLE Please repeat the last part of your question. MR CLAASSEN MR SITHOLE My intention was to go and find out from the ANC people if they were still on the previous matter what we were about before that time. And I wanted also to establish further as to why we were being attacked by them and assaulted by them. MR CLAASSEN Where did you proceed to then, and at what stage did you see this ANC mob that you referred to? MR SITHOLE At that point, as soon as I took the firearm from Magwaza I saw them approaching very closer now. And I met with them right on that spot and the IFP people were behind, following me. And I asked them if they were still on that matter, that issue and they started right at that moment to shoot and stone me and I also took out my firearm and I shot back. Now there was this fight that erupted. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you proceed Mr Sithole, what sort of firearm was it, do you know? MR SITHOLE I had an AK. CHAIRPERSON And can you say how many times you shot, how many rounds did you shoot? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Did you shoot many rounds, or just one? MR SITHOLE No I did not shoot once, I think it was several times. And I fled. The person who fell on the ground then was one of them. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Sithole. Just before you move on Mr Claassen. You say you were handed this AK-47 by Mr Magwaza and you shot. Had you ever shot with an AK-47 before? MR SITHOLE Yes, I once shot with an AK, at home, shooting at the animals. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON If you can indicate the distance in this room, or if you need more space than that you could indicate it outside. MR SITHOLE I think the distance would have been from that side, the other side of the road. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE Right next to the doors. The road right next to the doors. Not the main road. CHAIRPERSON MS LOCKHAT MR CACHALIA MR CLAASSEN That was indeed agreed. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN I believe that is what he indicated. Mr Sithole could you just explain. You state you saw these people. Where were they headed? MR SITHOLE They had spears and running after the IFP people. MR CLAASSEN What exactly do you mean by, they were running after the IFP people? MR SITHOLE What I mean is, they were attacking the IFP people, because the IFP people were running away towards the river, running away from this group. CHAIRPERSON Did you see any of them armed with firearms? You mentioned that you hear gunshots, but did you actually see any firearms. MR SITHOLE No I did not see that much, but they were shooting and I knew that the fire was from the them. They were the ones who were shooting. Especially it was at night I could not see exactly if they had firearms, or see their firearms with them. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, could you give an estimation as to the size of this group. You know, approximately how many people would you say were in the group? This is the ANC group. MR SITHOLE I think there were about 400. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sithole, you indicated that you then fired several shots. What happened right after that? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Sithole. You mentioned that Mr Magwaza handed you this AK-47. Did you see any of your comrades, your compatriots, your IFP people having firearms? MR SITHOLE Yes, the one who was right next to me had a firearm, Mpongosi that is. And Zwane. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether they shot? MR SITHOLE MR LAX Through you Chair. What firearms did they have? CHAIRPERSON Were they AK-47's or handguns, or rifles? Can you just give a description of the firearms that Zwane and this other person had, that you saw. MR SITHOLE They had small ones. I did not see as to what sort of firearms they were. CHAIRPERSON Handguns? Pistols or revolvers? INTERPRETER The sizes the applicant is demonstrating. CHAIRPERSON He indicates about 15, 20 centimetre size firearm, so obviously a handgun. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole, you made mention now, that because it was dark you could see, I presume when you talk about fire. What was the visibility like? MR SITHOLE Please repeat that question. CHAIRPERSON The question was what was the visibility like at the time that this shooting took place? MR SITHOLE I saw fire. CHAIRPERSON The question, Mr Sithole, was. You said that it was dark. How far could you see? What was the visibility like? Were there electric lights around, or any other artificial lighting, was the full moon in the sky, or bright stars, or could you see far? Just describe what the visibility was like at that time. MR SITHOLE It was not entirely dark as such. It was dusk. You could be able to see people that were near by or not too far away from you. CHAIRPERSON So that distance that you mentioned, that approximately 35 paces, you could still see the people quite easily? MR SITHOLE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And when you actually shot, you yourself shot at this group, was it still that same distance away or were you then closer to them or they closer to you? When you actually pulled the trigger of your firearm. MR SITHOLE They were now in close proximity. CHAIRPERSON How far away? Can you indicate in this room approximately how far away they were from you when you shot at them? When you actually shot. MR SITHOLE I think they would have been the distance from the door or the passage, the hallway. CHAIRPERSON This door here that we can see? MR SITHOLE No, I mean the outside one. Between the hallway and the outside doors. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN I think it might be a bit closers. He says between the doors and the hallway. Maybe 32. CHAIRPERSON Yes, say approximately 30 paces but still not right next to each other. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole you made mention that you saw the ANC people chasing IFP supporters with spears. Could you see any other visible armament? MR SITHOLE No, I could not see other weapons, except for the spears. The one thing that I heard were gunshots. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE It could have been 20. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole you indicated that you fired shots and you saw a person falling, and they carried him away. After the shooting incident, what happened then? MR SITHOLE They then ran away, and we remained behind and we got into a shack where we waited until the police came. And people were arrested and I ran away. People were arrested. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE I cannot dispute that, that I shot them, but I could not tell whether the people that I shot died or not. One person that I witnessed falling is the one person that was picked up by the ANC group and fled. I do not dispute the fact that I could be the one who shot these people. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sithole you were subsequently tried for these crimes, and also found guilty and sentenced on several of the charges. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, that is correct. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole in, after being sentenced and serving, you are currently serving a gaol sentence for your conviction on these crimes, you decided to bring an amnesty application. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Mr Magwaza do you recollect that, Mr Chair if I might refer the Commission, on page 8 of the bundle, you initially submitted an application, form one amnesty application, which differs from the evidence that you gave before the Commission today. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, that is correct. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole can you explain to this Committee what had happened and why did you do that? MR SITHOLE I heard the person saying he cannot write to the Commission because he had already made an appeal, so that if he is now writing to the Commission there would be a conflict. So that it would be better to wait for the appeal results, after which this can be directed to the Commission. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Oh sorry. MR LAX Mr Claassen you may have confused him. You did refer to him as Mr Magwaza. MR CLAASSEN MR LAX MR CLAASSEN I was actually referring to him. Maybe I could just ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. MR SITHOLE I was not telling the truth in Court. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE The reason is because I had lodged an appeal, and the legal representative who came to take this amnesty statement was such that I did not trust him. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE Some things yes, are similar, and some no. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole that information contained in that first application, is that the correct version of events? MR SITHOLE It is the second evidence that is correct. MR CLAASSEN That is the version that you gave before this Commission today? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Mr Chair if I may just, I would just like to maybe clarify this issue. Mr Sithole you were sentenced on the 16th of October 1996. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN And you submitted your first application the 2nd of May 1997. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN At that stage you were still awaiting a decision as to leave to appeal to your sentence. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN And during June 1997 you received, you were told that you were not granted leave to appeal against your sentence. MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Why did you, what prompted you then to submit a further application? MR SITHOLE I had already heard that I was not granted leave to appeal. My only appeal therefore became the Commission. MR CLAASSEN MR SITHOLE MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole, was this incident which you refer to, was this the result of any instruction given by anyone? Was it a result of any planned act? MR SITHOLE Yes, this happened after an instruction. MR CLAASSEN Could you just clarify that? MR SITHOLE It was an instruction that was directed to me from the IFP. An instruction to the effect that we should not go out and start attacking people. MR CLAASSEN MR SITHOLE No, there was no instruction that we should shoot people. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole could you have done anything else? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON "...I joined the IFP long ago, since its inception and whilst it was still a cultural organisation." Now what is the position? What is the correct position? MR SITHOLE Yes, that is correct. I joined the IFP long ago, but here it is also true that I joined it a year prior to the incident. CHAIRPERSON Are you trying to say that you joined this new branch that was opened by Themba Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu that you described in your evidence? What that about a year before the incident? MR SITHOLE MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sithole, your personal capacity did you stand to gain anything from what occurred there? MR SITHOLE No, there would be no personal gain, except to say that I am asking amnesty here following what I did. It was not my intention to do that. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole and how do you feel today about what had happened then? MR SITHOLE I feel very bad. It was not my intention to fight the ANC. We were oftentimes engaged in dialogues to sort out whatever problems there could have been. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions for the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Claassen. Mr Draht do you have any questions to ask this witness? MR DRAHT No questions Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole, the march to the Randburg council offices to demand more land for the people staying in Zevenfontein, was approximately one year, in about March of 1993, before the incident. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE No, it was not a very long time. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia is it a fact that that march took place in March? They marched in March? MR CACHALIA Apologies, my instructions, yes. May I proceed, sir? Thank you. That march was in fact led by the now premier of the Gauteng province, premier Matole Matsega. Do you remember that? MR SITHOLE I do not know, because I did not go there personally. I remained behind because I had to go to work. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Did you have a member by the name of Pinky Maloi and Mr Dan Sindani on that particular committee that decided on the march? MR SITHOLE Yes, they were present because they are the ones with whom we were planning the Randburg march. MR CACHALIA And do you know that at that time when the march was planned that these were members of the existing ANC committee that existed at that time? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Alright. Mr Sithole, you were an induna of the IFP according to your evidence. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA Do you, as a result of that particular position that you hold, take any instructions from any member of the IFP in the area, or do you, are you the person who makes the decisions in the matter? MR SITHOLE I am the one who was making, taking decisions. MR CACHALIA And the decision in your capacity as induna, if you took a decision in you capacity as an induna, the members of the IFP are required to follow your decisions and your instructions in the matter. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA Now when Mr Magwaza, according to you, gave you an AK-47 and said there was no time to talk, and when you disagreed with him, why then did you take the AK-47 and move out of the house that, where he gave you the AK-47? MR SITHOLE I had realised that I was dying now, the people were here, and I realised that if I take this AK-47 I can be in a position to protect myself. MR CACHALIA How would Mr Magwaza who gave you the firearm protect himself, if you needed it to protect yourself? MR SITHOLE He had two firearms in his possession. He also had another firearm, a smaller one. MR CACHALIA Am I to understand Mr Sithole, that after you had this, after you had indicated and instructed that the matter be discussed, that you changed your mind because you suddenly realised that you were dying? MR SITHOLE Yes, I changed my mind. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Cachalia. What position did Mr Magwaza hold, if any, in the IFP in Zevenfontein? MR SITHOLE He was chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And what position did you hold in the IFP at Zevenfontein. MR SITHOLE I was an induna. CHAIRPERSON So whose more senior, you or Magwaza? MR SITHOLE Magwaza. MR CACHALIA Obviously Mr Sithole you had just forgotten that you have told us that if you made an instruction it was binding on all members of the IFP. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Then please repeat for us what the position is. If you made a decision, you have told us that it is binding on members of the IFP in Zevenfontein where you were induna. Do you wish to change that now, sir? MR SITHOLE I am not changing anything. I indicated that I reported to Magwaza, that I wanted to discuss something that I received from the ANC, and he said he was rushing to town. I did this because of his seniority in relation to myself. MR CACHALIA We will leave that there for the committee to make a decision upon, Mr Sithole. You, according to the evidence that you have given, made an application for, your first application was made in this matter on the 2nd of May 1997. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA And at the time when you made that particular application Mr Sithole, you say that there was a person whom you did not trust. Was this a lady or a man? Male or female? MR SITHOLE A female. MR CACHALIA Is this the lady by the name of Colleen Henchie? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA Are you saying that she came to you and said you must make this application but you cannot say the truth because that would be in conflict with what was said by you in Court? MR CLAASSEN Mr Chair, if I may, I think that might be a bit misleading now. Maybe if the question could just be asked to indicate whether he was told anything by her, rather than saying she told him to, or prescribed to him what he should write down. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE I had not heard yet that she was going to be my legal representative, and at the time I had sent through an appeal. MR CACHALIA Sorry, may I proceed sir. Mr Sithole, you had already at that stage completed your matter in the Courts. You were sentenced already in 1996. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA In 1997 on the 2nd of May 1997, whilst you were at the Johannesburg Medium Prison you made this particular application for amnesty. MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA In that application, according to you, you told some lies and some truths. Is that right? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA You did that because you did not trust the person that made the application for you. Is that right? CHAIRPERSON No he said that was partially right, because he said also because his appeal was pending. MR CACHALIA One of the reason why you did not tell the truth at that stage is because your appeal was pending and you did not trust the person. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA What was the reason for you not trusting this particular person that was there? MR SITHOLE I did not know whether that person was my attorney or legal representative, or not. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE She arrived there on her own. MR CACHALIA What was the purpose of her visit to you? MR SITHOLE She said to me that she was going to help me fill in this application form to send to the Commission. MR CACHALIA And you had no problems with that particular approach. Is that so? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Did you make enquiries as to how she was appointed, who appointed her, why she had been there? Did you make enquiries from her, sorry? MR SITHOLE No, I did not. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE It is because I did not trust her. I did not trust that she was my lawyer or whatever motive she could have had. MR CACHALIA If you did not trust her, why did you not tell her that you do not wish her to represent her and that you do not wish to make the application through her? MR SITHOLE It is because I was waiting for my appeal results, and I decided to say whatever I could say because I was waiting for my appeal anyway. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole, this will be the last question on this particular aspect. What I am saying to you is that the lady arrives, says that she is there to assist you in making the application, you did not trust her. Was the better option at that stage not to say, I do not wish to make the application with your assistance? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA "...that my application could later be rectified or supplemented." Is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA Why did she tell you that? MR SITHOLE She came to me and said that my application does not divulge the truth, and I said, yes I have the truth, I know the truth, and I indicated that I did not trust the legal counsel that was assisting me, and this one person said I should trust him or her, I should tell the truth. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole you say that Anina van der Westhuizen told you that what you had said was not the truth. How did she know that? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE No, I did not. MR CACHALIA Now, when you made your first application for amnesty, you had informed the Amnesty Committee that "...I feared for my life and grabbed my AK-47, which I had always had yet never used before." On page 10 of the record, sir. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Sithole, what Mr Cachalia is saying is, you have just said that when you were in Court during your trial you did not admit to having had or used an AK-47. Is that correct? In your Court case. MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON "...I feared for my life. I grabbed my AK-47 which I had always had yet never used before. I made for the direction of the river, as I knew that should I be able to cross I would be safe." And then you carry on and tell the story. Now, Mr Cachalia is saying, in Court you denied having had or used an AK-47, yet in your first application, which is also not, on your own admission, a truthful version, you admit to having had an AK-47, and then later you admit to using it, because later on in that same paragraph you say: "...I feared for my life and then shot at them with my AK." MR SITHOLE It is because some of the contents are true, and some are not true. Because I did not trust the legal counsel. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole, is it true what the Chairperson has just read for you now? Is it true when you said "...I feared for my life." MR SITHOLE Yes, it is true that I was fearing for my life. MR CACHALIA Then you say "...I grabbed my AK-47" Is that true? MR SITHOLE That is not correct, that I took my, or grabbed my AK-47. MR CACHALIA Then it says "...which I always had, yet never used before" Is that true or not? MR SITHOLE That is not correct. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE It is as I have stated that some parts of the evidence were true and some were false, reason being that I did not trust the legal counsel. MR LAX MR SITHOLE I said the AK-47 is mine because Magwaza had not admitted at the time that I took it from him, and he said I should own it up and I decided to say the AK-47 was mine, and I indicated that Magwaza was not coming up with the truth, I would still have to appeal to him. I did not want us to fight over this. I indicated that I was going to tell them that he is the one who gave me the AK-47. ADV SIGODI Sorry, were you and Mr Magwaza in the same prison? MR SITHOLE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE The importance would have to lower or decrease the sentence. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Please explain. MR SITHOLE As I said I was awaiting the appeal. I was waiting for the appeal to decrease or lower the sentence. Now I had to write to the Commission because then that will be comparing the two because one side I was lying, the other I was telling the truth. CHAIRPERSON Which side were you lying and which side were you telling the truth? MR SITHOLE This appeal, this side. CHAIRPERSON What about it, was that a lie? MR SITHOLE I was lying because I said exactly what I had tendered at the Court of law. CHAIRPERSON And to the Commission you were telling the truth. Do I understand you correctly? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR LAX MR SITHOLE No, that is on the first statement. MR LAX Correct. Now what we want to understand from you is, why in relation to the appeal did you not tell the truth in your amnesty form, the first one? INTERPRETER Please repeat your question Mr Lax. MR LAX What was it that you wrote, what was it about the lies you wrote in your amnesty form? MR SITHOLE In the appeal I had said exactly what I said in Court. MR LAX MR SITHOLE Yes. MR LAX MR SITHOLE MR LAX Let me put it to you another way then. If you were worried about the comparison, why then would you admit the gun in your amnesty form, when in fact you had denied it in Court? MR SITHOLE It is because I wanted to tell the truth. MR LAX MR SITHOLE Partly was true, and part of that was lie. MR LAX Everything about the gun in this form is not the truth. Everything about the gun is not the truth, in the first form. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR LAX MR SITHOLE It will help in such a way that that attorney, I did not trust that attorney and I was still awaiting appeal. ADV SIGODI Sorry, just to. When this attorney came to you, was the process of amnesty explained to you? What was required from you in order to get amnesty. MR SITHOLE It was explained by Anina afterwards. ADV SIGODI In other words the first attorney never explained to you what the whole process of amnesty was all about? MR SITHOLE The attorney did not explain the whole thing, but explained or told me that I should admit as to what I had in my possession and my role thereof. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I feared that she would disappear once I said that, and yet I had not divulged the whole truth at that point in time. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And your colleague from the IFP and your co-accused, Mr Magwaza, was also there with you at that time? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And you and him both made the application at that same time? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA Did you and Mr Magwaza and Ms Colleen Henchie sit down and discuss the matter together? Was there anybody else? Please tell us the circumstances under which you made this application. Who was there? Tell us. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Sorry, by this one you mean Ms Colleen Henchie, the lady attorney. MR SITHOLE Yes, Colleen MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I heard that, yes. He never said that to me. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA Now, when the, when Ms Henchie discussed this matter with you people, the same person that filled in the form for you has also apparently filled in the form for Mr Magwaza. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Perhaps I could put it. Mr Magwaza, you say that the three of you were together in a room when you filled in these application forms. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE I heard that when he said that when he was talking and also denying the fact that he had a firearm. MR CACHALIA MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE The last I heard him denying or disputing that, it was during the time when Colleen was consulting with us. And when I then arrived he admitted then and said, you now can say and be free that I gave you the firearm, because I have no any other alternative but to tell the truth. MR CACHALIA Mr Magwaza, sorry Mr Sithole, all I am saying to you is that Mr Magwaza had made a statement consistent with what he had said in Court. Why did you not take that option? MR SITHOLE I came here then to tell the truth. I parted with it, completely divorced myself from what I had said at the Court of law, or in Court. MR CACHALIA But Mr Sithole what you are just saying is incorrect. You did not ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA As the Court pleases, thank you sir. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA Now, one of your members came and made a report to you about her discussion about the availability of shacks, the availability of place to put on her shacks, her shack, on the designated land, as you call it. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And there you met Mr Sandisile Dastile, the late Mr Dastile, and others. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And they disabused you of what was told to you by the lady that made the report to you. Let me put it more simply. They said to you, what the lady told you is not correct, we have no problems with the ANC, sorry with the IFP member putting a shack in the area. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE Yes, it is so, to discuss about the committee. This committee that was allocated to us. MR CACHALIA Let me proceed Mr Sithole. MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA Thank you. MR SITHOLE No, that is not correct. MR CACHALIA Tell me what were you going to meet for? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE What I know is that that meeting was based on the issue of a committee. This land you re bringing to my attention, I bear no knowledge of. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON JOHN M SITHOLE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia. CROSS-EXAMINATOIN BY MR CACHALIA (Cont) Mr Sithole, is it correct that you have responded to the Chairperson of the Committee when dealing with your evidence, that you have said that you had learned to fire the AK-47 while you were still in KwaZulu Natal at your home? Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, it is correct. MR CACHALIA Was that an AK-47? MR SITHOLE It was something similar to what I had used on that day in question. MR CACHALIA Was it not an AK-47? MR SITHOLE It was AK in fact. MR CACHALIA Whose AK was it? MR SITHOLE It belonged to one of the guys there at home. MR CACHALIA Yes, the name? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Why did he give you the gun? MR SITHOLE It is because I borrowed it from him for the purpose of shooting the animals. MR CACHALIA What animals were you shooting sir? MR SITHOLE Those will be bucks. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA How long ago did that happen? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Years, months, days. Tell us what you mean by long time ago, sir. MR SITHOLE It will be years, number of years. MR CACHALIA And you are not able to recollect the name of the person. Is that right? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Now, who. Sorry, my colleague and myself here are both a little naive about these matters. Is an AK-47 also an automatic machine gun? Because that was referred to in your trial. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Thank you. Somebody else might be able to assist us. Be that as it may, Mr Sithole, what I want to put to you is that you, in order to shoot buck, you had asked this person whose name you do not know, to lend you his automatic, sorry his AK-47. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA And having got that, who told you how to use it? MR SITHOLE He showed me himself. MR CACHALIA Did he teach you how you operate that gun? MR SITHOLE Yes, he did show me as to how to use this particular firearm. MR CACHALIA How many lessons did he have to give you? MR SITHOLE He taught me how to pull the trigger and how, what to do in order for the gun to discharge the bullet. MR CACHALIA Are you suggesting that it was all in one lesson? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA Then after having shot buck on that one day many years ago, the first time you used an AK-47 after that was on the 12th of February 1994? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE No, he did not know. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE He had two firearms, and he gave me one. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Magwaza had two guns, and he said, Sithole here is another one. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE He did not know. Magwaza did not know that I could use this AK because I never made mention of the fact to him that I once used it previously. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole I want to remind you once more that when you are giving evidence to this particular Committee one of the pre-conditions is that you must make full, honest, disclosure. Your evidence must be acceptable as a full disclosure of what you are telling us. Do you still wish to stay by with what you just have told us? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, I do remember that we were discussing about that fact. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, I did agree. MR CACHALIA And you also agreed that that was a meeting between the ANC and the IFP and any other committees that might have an interest in the matter, in the community. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And this meeting was to take place at the soccer ground. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA Brown, my apologies Mr Brown, Brown. MR SITHOLE Yes, that is true. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE We did not have that meeting ultimately because it was raining, pouring, very heavy. So there was no meeting. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE From one. MR CACHALIA Until? MR SITHOLE Until late in the afternoon. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE The meeting did not take place as a result of this rain, because it was raining heavily, so we did not have the meeting. MR CACHALIA What time did you say the rain stopped? MR SITHOLE It rained continuously until late at night. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE It rained the whole night. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA Had the rain stopped for you to allow you to change your clothing and to get into dry clothes? CHAIRPERSON He said, Mr Cachalia, that in fact he changed his clothing twice. He changed it once then he met some people then he had to go back and change it again. So he changed twice. MR CACHALIA Is that correct Mr Sithole? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE The rain did not stop. I changed still, and after this fight erupted I never went back to change, I continued in this whole thing without changing and also I feared to go home to change into other clothes. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole, you have told us, and I think my clients agree, that they got on, that the IFP and the ANC until that particular day had got on very well, until that day the previous day had got on very well and that if there were any problems they would approach you and you would sort them out. Is that correct? MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON I think perhaps technically you may be correct. But up until that stage Mr Sithole, is it correct that there was no real violence between the ANC and IFP at Zevenfontein and in fact most of the disputes that may have arisen between the two groups were sorted out by means of dialogue and agreement? MR SITHOLE Yes, we will solve any problems that transpired with no violence at all. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA Now the person that you will normally discuss it with is the late Mr ...(intervention) INTERPRETER May the speaker be please audible. MR CACHALIA My apologies. The persons that would normally meet in this matter would be at that time the chairperson of the ANC, Mr, the late Mr Dastile, his brother Sandisile who is sitting next to me, and other members of the ANC together with you on the other side and Mr Magwaza. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Well perhaps, do you want me to repeat the question sir? MR SITHOLE Yes, I did not hear. MR CACHALIA I am saying that when you had a problem in Zevenfontein before this week in February, the matter would be resolved by you and Magwaza and Sandisile Dastile and the late Mr Dastile meeting and discussing issues and the matters would be resolved. You would arrange to meet and sort out the problems that you had. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA Not according to my instructions, sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON And it was to take place on the soccer field, just the four of them? MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE All the people. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, it was right close. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, that is right. MR CACHALIA Now is that where you were supposed to meet? MR SITHOLE We were going to meet at the soccer field. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Just refer us to the page and the paragraph number just for easy reference please. MR CLAASSEN MR CACHALIA On page 27, paragraph 3,7 sir. MR SITHOLE MR LAX "...The leaders and I, we agreed to have a meeting, on the 12th of February at 14h00." "...at the sports field, to discuss the problems in the community." MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE MR LAX MR SITHOLE I think have forgotten. I do not know as to what time this meeting was supposed to have taken place. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, you may as well accept that because of the rain the meeting did not take place. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole, Mr Dastile and other will say that it had in fact stopped raining and if you wanted to you could have held the meeting on that particular day. MR SITHOLE There was no-one at the soccer field since it was raining. MR CACHALIA At the time of the shooting, the members of the IFP, where were they, on the soccer field, or where were they? Just immediately prior to the shooting. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA And the late Mr Dastile in fact came and stood awaiting to be acknowledged by your group and he waited there for some time and nobody acknowledge him. Is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Is that Mr Dastile the deceased, or? MR CACHALIA That is so, sir. MR SITHOLE No he did not show up. It was myself who initiated to ask them if they were coming to approach us based on the argument or on what we heard earlier on. MR CACHALIA Who did you approach, Mr Sithole? MR SITHOLE I was saying to all of them, the ANC people that is, and they were all standing armed with the spears, and as soon as I said that they said you are still going on talking, and they started assaulting. MR CACHALIA Assaulting you? Did they assault you? MR SITHOLE Yes, assaulted me. MR CACHALIA ADV SIGODI MR CACHALIA MR LAX How were you assaulted Mr Sithole? MR SITHOLE They stoned me and they shot as well, at me. MR LAX Were you injured by bullets? MR SITHOLE No, I was not injured, because as soon as I heard the gunshots I took cover. I fell on the ground. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA Thank you Chairperson. MR LAX I just wanted to finish what I was asking him. Where, you say they threw stones at you, did the stones actually hit you, cause you injury? MR SITHOLE No, I retreated and I sustained no injuries. MR LAX MR SITHOLE They were assaulting me, but I managed to retreat and I also took cover and I laid down on the ground. MR LAX Carry on please Mr Cachalia. ADV SIGODI Sorry, did you say that the stones hit you on your body? MR SITHOLE No, they did not hit me on the body. MR CACHALIA Thank you. Mr Sithole, what Mr Lax and I am saying to you is that nowhere in your documentation, nor in your evidence, did you, was there any question of you being assaulted at all. You are now coming with a version that you were assaulted. MR LAX MR CACHALIA I have worded it incorrectly. My apologies for that. Mr Sithole, nowhere in your documents did you say you were assaulted. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE I do mention that the ANC people assaulted me, this is why I went back to find out, it was at that time when they began stoning me and shooting at me. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole I just want to say to you that when you say you were in fact assaulted, you were in fact not assaulted at all and that is not correct to say that you were assaulted. MR SITHOLE I was assaulted. They threw stones at me and they also shot at me. MR CACHALIA It is a fundamental coincidence in this whole action and I think it was dealt with, I think it was also dealt with in your Court, that the ANC who were shooting at you people, and who had been stoning you, and who had spears, axes and knobkerries with them, never managed to kill or injure or hurt any member of the IFP. Am I correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, it is correct. MR CACHALIA So either they were very bad shots, or your version is a total lie. MR SITHOLE We had already seen the fact that they were coming to assault and injure us and we had to be proactive. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole, I am saying that in the throwing of the stones, in the possession of the various other weapons that they had, and in the shooting by people whom you did not know who was shooting, from the ANC towards the IFP, not a single member of the IFP who was gathered there on that day got hurt. Is that correct? CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA As the Chair pleases, my apologies. If that be the case, Mr Sithole, they were either very bad shots or you are telling a, you are fabricating a version. CHAIRPERSON I think this could be adequately dealt with in argument, this question of probabilities or whatever. But he can try to answer if he wants. Probably say that they were bad shots. MR CACHALIA As the Chair pleases. MR SITHOLE This is not a fabricated version or a lie. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Well I did not fall as such but I threw myself to the ground. MR CACHALIA And then? MR SITHOLE Then we shot at each other. They were shooting at me and I was shooting as I was on the ground, and I shot one of them and he fell on the ground, and they pulled him with, running away with him. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I did not see whether it was him or not. I am referring to the one who got shot and fell instantly on the ground and they took him with as they were running away. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE No, I did not say that. MR LAX MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, it was near. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE No, I did not. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE MR LAX MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE No. MR CACHALIA Thank you. ADV SIGODI Did you climb any roof at all? MR SITHOLE Except my own shack, when I was putting back the roof ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE No, no I did not climb any roof. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE No I dispute all that. I was shooting from the ground, lying on the ground, not on top of the roof. ADV SIGODI MR SITHOLE No, I did not see any. MR CACHALIA Thank you. Mr Sithole, you said that Mr Zwane and Mr Mpongosi said on that particular day that the ANC were attacking. They came to you shack and informed you about the attack by the ANC. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, it is correct. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, it is true. MR CACHALIA And after that you had changed your clothes, and after you had changed your clothes, you heard a gunshot. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA Then you changed your evidence to say in fact you heard twice, the gunshots were twice in fact, not one gunshot, but twice. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA What you are saying in fact Mr ...(intervention) INTERPRETER May the speaker be audible. MR CACHALIA What you are saying in fact Mr Sithole, is that whilst you were still in your shack and you had changed your clothing you first hear a gunshot, in fact twice you had heard a gunshot. Are you now saying thereafter you heard some more gunshots? MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA That is correct Mr Sithole, what the Chairperson and Mr Lax the Member of Committee has been saying? Is that what you heard? MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE This gunshot I said I heard it after Zwane and Mpongosi had left, after I told them to go to Magwaza. I heard this gunshot. And as I was going out I saw the ANC people approaching my shack and I went quickly back inside and closed the door and sat in the house, in the shack that is. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE I know I did make mention in fact to this gunshot, maybe the person did not hear. I heard this gunshot as soon as Mpongosi and Zwane left and I opened the door I saw the ANC group approaching and I quickly closed the door, closed myself inside. Maybe he did not hear that as I said it, but I did say that. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA The affidavit was read to you Mr Sithole, before you signed it. Is that right? MR SITHOLE The affidavit was read to me. MR CACHALIA And when it was read to you you realised that this matter you raised about the gunshot was not in the affidavit? MR SITHOLE I discovered that, but I did not know how to rectify that error because it was after that. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I did not know how to rectify that mistake. ADV SIGODI But Ms Interpreter if you can ...(intervention) MR SITHOLE Because I was about to appear. I was just about to appear. MR CACHALIA You were about to appear where sir? MR SITHOLE Appear right in this Commission. MR CACHALIA MR LAX Sorry Mr Cachalia. Mr Sithole you were asked whether at the time you signed this affidavit it was read back to you, and you said yes. That is on the day it was signed which is not clear from this affidavit. It looks like the 30th of August 1997. Is that the date that this affidavit was signed? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes it was read back to me and you realised that what you had told them about the gunshots while you were in the shack was not in the affidavit? MR SITHOLE Yes, I realised. MR CACHALIA And you did not tell your attorney or whoever was dealing with you at that time that this particular fact was omitted? MR SITHOLE I said that, and also the police were hurrying to close, where we were. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE They said we will furnish the rest of the information in front of the Commission, whatever was omitted will be furnished in front of the Commission. MR CACHALIA Let me leave that and start on the next issue. You said, Mr Sithole, that you were in your shack when you saw this ANC people running towards you, you went inside. Is that correct? You hid yourself back in the shack. MR SITHOLE I was inside my shack and as I was going out after I heard the gunshot I saw the ANC people approaching, coming, running to my shack, having spears, and I went back quickly inside and closed the shack door. MR CACHALIA And they peeped through your shack and could not see you inside. MR SITHOLE No they did not see me. MR CACHALIA And then you came out again. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And they were still there outside your shack. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, I remember. I said Zwane arrived, came together with Mpongosi, and told them ...(intervention) MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And you were hiding in there. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And you then came out again and they were there. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA And you say you remember what you had said to them. I am saying that what you said in your evidence is not what you said now. Do you remember what you said in your evidence-in-chief, sir? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole I put it to you that what you said when they confronted you is. "...Why are you killing me." CHAIRPERSON My note says, "...I asked why they were trying to kill me?" MR CACHALIA What you said is "...why are you trying to kill me?" MR SITHOLE Yes, I did ask that question as to why you are attacking me, why are you killing me, and before you kill me I would like to know what it is that I have done, and they said it was a shebeen matter. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA In fact Mr Sithole, not a single hand was laid on you on that day. Is that right? MR SITHOLE I shielded myself as I was being attacked. MR CACHALIA Please tell us how you were attacked? CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA No sir, attacked, he was attacked here when he came out of the shack, not at that time, sir. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA He says he shielded himself when he was attacked sir. MR LAX MR CACHALIA My apologies. Mr Sithole in fairness to you, were they trying to attack you that day outside your shack? MR SITHOLE Yes, they were trying to attack me inside the shack, because they came to the shack and peeped round the windows and I realised that I was being attacked. And when I left and when I came out I saw them and I started asking why I was being killed. MR CACHALIA But at that stage nobody had laid a hand on you. Is that right? MR SITHOLE Yes, at the time nobody laid his hand on me. MR CACHALIA Did you try and shield yourself at that time? MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, that is correct. But it was not chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi that we were going to meet, but instead the prince. MR CACHALIA Sorry, you were going to meet somebody else. CHAIRPERSON He said the prince. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Thank you very much. I think we might have had some problems there with the ...(intervention) MR LAX MR CACHALIA Thank you Mr Lax. It is incorrect when you said that you were going to meet chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi, you were in fact going to meet with the king or the prince or whatever it is translated to. Is that right sir? MR SITHOLE ADV SIGODI CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE Yes, I realise that. MR LAX MR SITHOLE Umtwana is the prince, isilo is the king. MR LAX Thank you. MR CACHALIA MR LAX Sorry Mr Cachalia. The interpreter is explaining to us that he used the word umtwana, and from that she deducted he was referring to Minister Buthelezi, as opposed to using the word isilo which would have implied the king. CHAIRPERSON So that was the interpreter said that, not the witness as such. The interpreter said it, after the witness had used the word umtwana. It was interpreted to mean Buthelezi whose not the king but more of a prince. MR LAX In other words he never used the word Buthelezi at all. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE No, I know nothing about that. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole, when we talked about the distance that the ANC were from you, your initial answer was that they were on the other side of the road, as it was interpreted to us. Just prior to the shooting for completeness sake. MR SITHOLE I indicated that they were standing at a distance the same as the other side of the street here. I am referring to the street here just outside the building. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON He said that. 400. MR CACHALIA Is that correct Mr, Sorry. CHAIRPERSON He said that it was plus minus 400. MR CACHALIA ...(inaudible) in your statement you talk about 100 members. Page 29, 5.3 paragraphs. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, that is correct. I came across this ANC group as they were approaching then I met them at the grounds. MR CACHALIA In other words, Mr Sithole, in order to approach them you had to go towards them away from the riverside up towards the hill rather than moving away from them. Is that right? MR SITHOLE Yes we approached them. MR CACHALIA If you were afraid of what they might do to you why did, if you had to arm yourself, why did you have to go towards them and not go away from them? MR SITHOLE It is because the river was overflowing. There was no way we could have gone towards the direction of the river. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR SITHOLE Yes. MR LAX MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Can you give us an estimate sir? One or two minutes, five minutes? MR SITHOLE I would not estimate because I started rushing immediately I took reception of the firearm from Magwaza. I took the firearm and then started running. MR CACHALIA Sorry, you took the firearm and started running. There was a tremendous hurry about this matter. Is that correct? You were in a hurry? You were rushing? MR SITHOLE I was in a hurry because I wanted to talk to them to find out from them as to whether they had come to me so that we could discuss what were discussing earlier on. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes. Yes it can go as far as the parking lot. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA Then I want to put it to you that, I want to know from you whether that crowd of 100 people then suddenly became 400 in that few minutes? CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA Thank you sir that might very well be so. Do you agree with what the Chairperson is saying Mr Sithole? MR LAX MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA I want to put to your Mr Sithole, thank you sir, I want to put to your Mr Sithole that there were nowhere near 400 people in the ANC group at any time on that particular day on the soccer field or around the soccer field, sir. MR SITHOLE I am saying they could have easily made 400. MR CACHALIA Was that the same group that came round your shack on that particular day? MR SITHOLE The one group that surrounded my shack or my house could have been 100 according to my estimation. And after having spoken to them they left as a group, but when they came towards the sports field they were far much more than that, they were now around 400. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole you told us that what had occurred on that particular day was spontaneous and that here was no instruction to do what you had done. MR SITHOLE Yes. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I wanted to find out from the ANC people was to why they were attacking me. They did not advance any explanation. We ended up fighting without me knowing why I was being attacked. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I meant to protect myself. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I had a political objective because they were the ANC and I was a member of the IFP. MR CACHALIA And was it your intention to kill all members of the ANC? MR SITHOLE It was not my intention to kill all of them. My intention was to protect myself. MR CACHALIA So am I then correct in saying that in protecting yourself you shot them but there was no political objective in killing any particular member of the ANC? CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE We could have taken a different route because they were all over the place and we were in the middle. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole the position of Zevenfontein it is a slight hillside going into a river and on the hillside, on the slopes if the squatter camp of Zevenfontein, and the majority of people re living higher up from the soccer field, not towards the river. Is that correct sir? MR SITHOLE Yes they used to stay around the river before. They moved after the fighting. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole the crowd that was coming was coming from the top end of Zevenfontein coming towards the river, is that correct? MR SITHOLE That is correct. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Yes, there was no group that was approaching from the river towards Magwaza. The entire group came from that, from the north. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE Thank you. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE We had nowhere to run to except to cross the river, because the place is as I illustrate. You have this river running this way and you have the houses on the other side, and they were coming from the different sides of the houses. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE There was nowhere to run to. The river was overflowing. MR CACHALIA Thank you very much sir. ADV SIGODI Mr Cachalia, can I just get this clear from you. Are you then saying that the ANC was attacking the IFP? If you are saying that he should have run away? MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE MR SITHOLE There might have been tensions between individuals, between the committees and the members there was no tension. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX MR CACHALIA MR CACHALIA MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR CACHALIA As it pleases, then perhaps I should just put it much more clear. MR SITHOLE MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE No, I know nothing about that. MR CACHALIA You do admit that there was in fact a dispute about the posters that had been destroyed by the IFP youth which you were approached with and which was denied. Is that correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, I know that. MR CACHALIA MR SITHOLE I am saying that happened. MR CACHALIA And at no stage, Mr Sithole, was members of the ANC who were going to meet you on the Saturday carrying arms in the form of firearms, spears, guns, kerries, or any of the sorts. MR SITHOLE I am saying they were armed with axes, spears, and machetes, and many other things. MR CACHALIA Thank you sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Cachalia. Ms Lockhat do you have any questions to ask the witness. MS LOCKHAT No Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen do you have any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN MR SITHOLE Yes, that is correct. MR CLAASSEN Thank you, that is all Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Ms Sigodi do you have any questions to ask the witness? ADV SIGODI MR SITHOLE They were outside. ADV SIGODI And when Mr Magwaza came to hand you this AK-47, were the other people also armed, or did you see them having any firearms? MR SITHOLE I really could not make out. ADV SIGODI Do you know where Mr Magwaza got these firearms from? MR SITHOLE We were discussing that contributions, financial contributions should be made because we have picked up vibes to the effect that the ANC was going to attack us. ADV SIGODI When was this? MR SITHOLE It was just before the fighting. ADV SIGODI And who was supposed to contribute for the firearms? MR SITHOLE Anybody was supposed to make a contribution but the person that was collecting the money was Bengu. ADV SIGODI Was he responsible for buying the firearms? MR SITHOLE No, he was just handling the money. Magwaza was the one who was in charge of the purchasing of the firearms. ADV SIGODI Do you know how many firearms the IFP had in that region at that time? MR SITHOLE He told me that he managed to procure two firearms. ADV SIGODI CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax do you have questions for him. MR LAX MR SITHOLE MR LAX So, to the best of your knowledge there were four firearms present at that point in time amongst the IFP members? MR SITHOLE MR LAX Now I want to take you to page 29 of your affidavit. You said that, at paragraph 5.4, that when this mob was outside your house that Mpongosi and other IFP members arrived there and spoke to you, during the time the mob was there. MR SITHOLE They came and spoke to me and indicated that the ANC was attacking. MR LAX MR SITHOLE MR LAX MR SITHOLE Yes, I was alone. They came only to find the ANC at my place. MR LAX MR SITHOLE MR LAX MR SITHOLE The shooting that happened once here refers to the time when Zwane and others left my place, during which time I indicated that heard a gunshot. But at the time when there was fighting, gunshots went on. Not once. MR LAX "I moved in their direction, shouting and asking whether they came to discuss the same issues. They did not seem to hear me. I was under the impression that they were armed with an assortment of weapons, including firearms." And then this is the important part: "Whilst I was approaching them they seemed to spread out as if planning to attack. The tension was very high and the visibility poor. A shot rang out. I cannot say where it came from but under the circumstances believed it was the ANC attacking us. I started to fire in the direction of Mr Dastile, leading the group. I am not sure, I think I shot Mr Dastile." MR SITHOLE I think my evidence was not well comprehended. I said that when they started firing and throwing stones I threw myself to the ground, during which time I also started shooting. MR LAX Yes I want you to explain the difference between that evidence, and what is in your affidavit, which your lawyers prepared with you. They had an interpreter present I am assuming, is that right? When they took this affidavit? Correct? MR SITHOLE Yes, there was an interpreter. MR LAX MR SITHOLE I would like to know what difference or conflict of evidence you are talking about. CHAIRPERSON MR SITHOLE I think the person who was interpreting for me must have made a mistake because I did indicate that these people fired several shots, not one shot. MR LAX MR SITHOLE Yes, I do remember. MR LAX In this affidavit you make it clear that you were shooting at Mr Dastile and you think he fell, sorry, you think you shot him. The impression that is created is that you were consciously shooting at him, the leader of the ANC. MR SITHOLE Yes, that is correct. I directed the shot at him and I could see him fall. MR LAX Well then why did you deny that when Mr Cachalia put it to you, that that was in fact so? MR SITHOLE I thought I did indicate that I fired a shot and I saw someone falling onto the ground. MR LAX CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Claassen do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Was it not Justin, or is Justin and Dastile the same person? MR LAX Yes I had the same note that it was somebody else called Justin, as well. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Sithole, are Justin and Dastile the same person? MR SITHOLE These are two different people. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, I must have been mistaken. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising Mr Draht? MR DRAHT No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia, any questions arising? MR CACHALIA Thank you, none, sir. CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, any questions arising? MS LOCKHAT No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sithole thank you. That concludes your testimony. You may stand down now. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON That concludes your clients Mr Claassen? MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, that concludes the case for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht? MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS