amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-24 BOKSBURG CIVIC CENTRE 3 A NDLOVU AM 3713/96 ZEVENFONTEIN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53227&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99022225_bks_990224bk.htm CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT A NDLOVU (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht? EXAMINATION BY MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR DRAHT MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu can you tell me, can you read or write English? MR NDLOVU Yes, I can read and write, but not English. MR DRAHT What is your standard of education? MR NDLOVU Standard 5. MR DRAHT Has somebody read that statement to you after taking it? MR NDLOVU No, they did not read it to me. MR DRAHT Can you remember who took the statement from you? MR NDLOVU If I still remember very well, it was Mr Msizi and Mr Claassen. MR DRAHT On the day that that statement was taken from yourself, did they only take your statement, or was there other people present whose statements was also taken? MR NDLOVU Yes, there were many of us, and some of the people from whom the statement was taken were my co-accused. MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Draht, you may continue. MR DRAHT "...on the day the IFP and ANC members were killed." Is that correct? MR NDLOVU Would you please repeat the question. MR DRAHT In your statement paragraph 9(a)(iv) you mention that on the day IFP and ANC members were killed. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT What is the correct position? MR NDLOVU Only ANC members were injured, not IFP members. MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu you also mentioned in that statement that you were arrested by the police in the morning after the incident. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU No, that is not the truth. MR DRAHT When were you arrested? MR NDLOVU I was arrested on the very same day of the incident, on Saturday, that was on the 12th in the evening. MR DRAHT Why do you think that this was written wrongly in your statement? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Thanks. Mr Ndlovu do you belong to a political party? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR DRAHT What is your, what party? MR NDLOVU The IFP. MR DRAHT What is your position in the party? What was your position in the party at the time of the incident? MR NDLOVU I was a follower. MR DRAHT What is the acts that you committed that you applied for amnesty for? MR NDLOVU I am seeking amnesty in connection with the injury of people in Zevenfontein. As well as my being found in possession of a firearm. MR DRAHT What was the charges that you have been found guilty of? MR NDLOVU I was found guilty of murder and attempted murder, as well as being in possession of a firearm. MR DRAHT And did you plead guilty or not guilty when you were in Court? MR NDLOVU I did not plead guilty. MR DRAHT Why did you plead not guilty? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR DRAHT Are you willing to tell the truth now? MR NDLOVU Very much so. MR DRAHT Can you please tell us what happened on the day of the incident in Zevenfontein. MR NDLOVU And a distance from my shack, at a distance from my shack I saw people, women who were carrying their babies on their backs, hurrying, and I could see where these women were going, and this group of women accumulated as the singing was going on. And as I looked around there is one very big street that was the entry point into our area, and as I cast my eyes towards that point I saw a group of amabuto on that very same street. These people were carrying knopkierries as well as spears. They were chanting, and they were not standing still but they were moving downwards. That is when I got a fright, because I, it now occurred to me that what he was saying is the truth. And we swiftly took the downward direction with the intention of crossing the Jukskei River. We could not cross the river became it was overflowing. MR DRAHT Just a moment Mr Ndlovu. Do you know why you walked up the steep? Why were the group walking up the steep? MR NDLOVU As far as my conclusions are concerned their intention was to go and fight. MR DRAHT With whom did they want to go and fight? MR NDLOVU They were to meet the group that was coming from up, moving towards the downward direction. MR DRAHT And who was that group? Who was that group? MR NDLOVU It was the ANC. MR DRAHT And you walked with them? With the IFP people? MR NDLOVU That is correct, I walked up with the IFP group. MR DRAHT And were you armed at that stage? MR NDLOVU I was not armed at that time. MR DRAHT What happened then? You walked up and then what happened? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Sorry, by whom was the stones thrown? MR NDLOVU These stones came from the direction of the ANC. MR DRAHT And the shots, from which direction did that come? MR NDLOVU The shots as well. MR DRAHT Was it one shot or different shots? MR NDLOVU Several shots were fired. MR DRAHT From the ANC group? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR DRAHT And what happened then? MR NDLOVU When we heard the throwing of stones as well as the shooting, I heard one voice shouting, ordering that we lie down. Indeed we lied down and some of us against the shack. And the shooting continued, and the throwing of stones did not stop. And we later on heard this very big explosion which was different from the initial gunshots. And when I looked around I saw this ball of green fire directed towards the other group. And this explosion happened again. I tried to look around to establish where it came from, and it transpired that this explosion came from our group. And I ultimately identified the person who was shooting from our direction, from our group rather. MR DRAHT Who was that? MR NDLOVU It was Sithole. MR DRAHT Could you see with what was he firing? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Was it a long or a short firearm, could you see that? MR NDLOVU It looked like a rifle because he had his hands placed as I demonstrated. MR DRAHT And were you still unarmed at that moment? MR NDLOVU Yes, I was not armed at that time. MR DRAHT Okay, what happened then? MR NDLOVU After having identified Sithole, the group that was in front of us started dispersing and retreating. That is the time when we started moving, and when we started moving from where I was standing, charging forward, there is one person whom I saw lying down. That is when I realised that yes, this is a war. And after having walked past ...(intervention) MR DRAHT If you say that you were charging, were your group charging towards the ANC group? Is that correct? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR DRAHT Okay, and you saw a person lying on the ground? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR DRAHT And then? MR NDLOVU When I walked past the person who was lying down, fortunately I happened to pick up a stick from the ground. I think it must have been dropped by one of the people who were fleeing. I took this stick along. That is when I started arming myself. MR DRAHT Yes? CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU It was not a knopkierrie, it was just a plain stick. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Draht, just before we move on, before it just slips my mind. You mentioned that you saw Sithole with what you believe was a rifle. Is that the same Mr Sithole who testified yesterday? MR NDLOVU That is correct. MR DRAHT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu you can proceed. MR NDLOVU ...(no English interpretation) ADV SIGODI The interpretation is not coming through. INTERPRETER MR NDLOVU We proceeded on and when I looked ahead I saw two people coming towards our direction, and when they came I would say there were two, or some people who were in front of me, and these people met these two people who were coming towards ourselves, and I saw one of them touching himself on the shoulder. And the other one who was in his company took off, and the one who was touching his shoulder was hit. He got injured. ADV SIGODI Sorry, you say he was hit. He was hit by what? MR NDLOVU He was hit by knopkierries and he fell down, and he was also stabbed with spears. MR DRAHT Did you also hit him? MR NDLOVU No, I could not reach him. ADV SIGODI Was it somebody you knew? MR NDLOVU I recognised this person, but later I learnt that it was somebody whom I knew. CHAIRPERSON Who was it? MR NDLOVU It was Alfred Madumane. ADV SIGODI Do you know who stabbed him with a spear? MR NDLOVU No, I could not see. It was actually a group of people, and this group of people were lifting their spears and sticks and knopkierries at the same time. I could not make out. MR DRAHT You can continue Mr Ndlovu. MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT By whom? ADV SIGODI Do you know who he was. MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON When you say he was beaten up, was, what do you mean? Was he set upon by your group and assaulted with kerries and sticks? Just tell us what you mean by saying he was beaten up. MR NDLOVU He was beaten up by our group, using sticks and spears. CHAIRPERSON Did you partake in that beating up? MR NDLOVU No, yes, yes I did partake of the beating. CHAIRPERSON That person who was beaten, do you know whether he was killed or not? MR NDLOVU My Lord it is very difficult for me to say he could have survived, because he was stabbed as soon as he fell onto the ground. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR DRAHT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu, you say that you also beat him. How did you beat him? MR NDLOVU I used the very same stick that I picked up when we went up the steep? MR DRAHT And did you do something else to him also? MR NDLOVU When he fell, I also kicked him. MR DRAHT Okay, and what happened then? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT What kind of, what make of firearm was it? Did you see that? MR NDLOVU When I asked him what kind of firearm it is he said it was a 38. MR DRAHT You can continue. MR NDLOVU I handled this firearm and I could make out from the weight that it was the real thing. And I then enquired from him as to whether he fired shots, and he said. "...there is no way I could not have fired," and I gave back the firearm. And at the same time we did not know what was happening or whether these people were coming back to attack us, and we decided that we could not go back to our houses, we would rather wait at the grounds in case they come back. And as we were milling around a Hippo came along. CHAIRPERSON By a Hippo you mean a police vehicle, not a hippo out of the Jukskei River? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Sorry Mr Ndlovu, do I understand you correctly, and identification parade was held? CHAIRPERSON In a Hippo? MR NDLOVU Yes, they were right inside the Hippo. CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT As it pleases Mr Chair. MR NDLOVU MR LAX Who was pointing out? Who was nodding their heads and shaking their heads? Who were those people? MR NDLOVU We could not see them as to who they were. But one could make out from outside that there were people inside the Hippo. Because when this one soldier took you to the Hippo he would place you near the light and make you face the light, and he would at the same time look at the person who was sitting inside the Hippo, and from whatever response that came a decision was made as to which side the person would have to be taken. That is what happened. And I was among those who were sent to the side after the head was nodded. And we were rounded up until we were 21. And we were made to sit down yet again and the soldiers came to us with something that looked like bottles, and something that looked like sticks. They looked like ballpoint pens. They gave us these things, and they made us write our names. And after that we went to Morningside travelling in that very same vehicle. That is how I was arrested. MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu did the police take any tests from your hands? Did they conduct any tests on your hands? MR NDLOVU I think if I still remember very well they did that once we arrived at Morningside police station. MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu can you remember how many people was in the ANC group on that day? CHAIRPERSON Approximately. MR NDLOVU They could have been 500. MR DRAHT Was it males or females? MR NDLOVU I am referring here to, there were females as well, but not the same number as the males. I indicated earlier on that the females were standing alone on the side and the males were standing in the street, the main street that was the entry point to our area. MR DRAHT And how many people was approximately in the IFP group? MR NDLOVU We could have been 100. MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu do you regret what happened that day? MR NDLOVU My Lord, I regret quite deeply about what happened on that day. There are things that I can forget but this one is still very far from being forgotten. It really hurt us. MR DRAHT Do you think it is possible that people can live peacefully together in the future even if they are from different political backgrounds? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Has any political leader in the IFP structure gave instructions to you to commit these acts against the ANC? MR NDLOVU No, there was no instruction to that effect from any leader from Zevenfontein. As I have explained that this is something happened and there was no explanation. Nobody expected such a thing to happen. MR DRAHT But still all the IFP people group together. INTERPRETER Chairperson may the speaker please repeat the question. MR DRAHT But still on that day the IFP people made a group together, without instructions from the leaders? MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu, my last question. When we started you said that you were applying for amnesty for hurting people. Are you also applying for amnesty now for the act you were found guilty of? MR NDLOVU That is correct my Lord. MR DRAHT Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Draht. Mr Claassen do you have any questions to ask this witness? MR CLAASSEN NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CACHALIA Mr Ndlovu, you were with your co-accused at Zonderwater Prison in Cullinan. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU May you please repeat your question. MR CACHALIA Were you with your co-accused ...(intervention) INTERPRETER May the speaker be audible. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA Mr Ndlovu you were there at Zonderwater Prison in Cullinan together with some of your co-accused. CHAIRPERSON When? What are you referring to? When is this? MR CACHALIA At the time when he made the statement. At the time when you made the application for amnesty. MR NDLOVU Yes I was with them, my co-accused in this case, and some others as well, IFP members that is, who were not my co-accused necessarily, and they had joined us to fill in this application. MR CACHALIA And you say that there was a Mr Msizi and a Mr Claassen. Who is Mr Msizi please? MR NDLOVU He is one IFP member who works at parliament. MR CACHALIA And Mr Claassen? MR NDLOVU He is here. MR CACHALIA That is the attorney Mr D Claassen sitting? CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Pardon me, I am an attorney. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. I understood from Nelspruit that you were from the bar. I beg your pardon. MR CLAASSEN MR CACHALIA Thank you. That is the person that we are referring to, is that right? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA MR DRAHT MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU I was not called at all to be told that I have to apply for amnesty, but what I know is that I was called and when I got there they told me right there that I will be filling the amnesty application form and this is what I should do. MR CACHALIA What was it that you should do please tell me? MR NDLOVU They explained that I would have to apply for amnesty from the TRC Committee, and explain everything that happened at the area where we were residing. And they also told me that I should not lie because the TRC does not take any lies and I had to write the truth and the truth only. MR CACHALIA And did you, was a, was an interpreter present? MR NDLOVU I thought I had explained earlier on that Mr Claassen was together with Mr Msizi. Msizi was the one who was interpreting for us. MR CACHALIA So Mr Msizi acted as an interpreter, and you told him the truth? MR NDLOVU Yes that is true. MR CACHALIA And that is the truth that you presumably have told the Committee today? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA And that was translated and written down. My apologies sir. My apologies. May I just switch it off? (Referring to cell phone). Sorry. You had, just to go back, you say that you had told Mr Msizi what you have told the Committee today and you have presumably been told by Mr Draht what is in your application form. MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA Not only is it contradictory but it is completely a defence to the charges that were presented, that were brought against you in the High Court. Is that correct? INTERPRETER Please may you repeat that question. MR CACHALIA Not only are there substantial inaccuracies according to you, but it was, what you have said in your application form, is a defence to the charges that were brought against you in the High Court. MR NDLOVU MR LAX MR CACHALIA Mr Ndlovu, you said in this particular application form that they did something on your hands when they arrested you. Is that right? MR NDLOVU Yes that is true. MR CACHALIA That is what was your defence in the case against you when the charges were brought against you in the High Court. MR DRAHT Mr Chairperson that was not his defence is my submission. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA May I just make it more clear? MR LAX MR CACHALIA Sorry, perhaps I am making too many assumptions about has happened in this matter. In your application form Mr Ndlovu you say that the police circulated something in our hands, put it into a bath, and then arrested us. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes, that is so. MR CACHALIA And that particular statement was made to contradict the evidence of the State that they had tested your hands and found that you had handled a firearm. MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes that is true as stated, but the only minor mistake that I heard is the one of the house, searching the house. No, the police did not get as far as my shack. I was only, I only added at the ground, I never went back to the house. The next thing they arrested us. CHAIRPERSON "...circulated something in our hands, put it into a bottle" MR CACHALIA Mr Ndlovu perhaps you can help us clear it up. What did they circulate in your hand? MR NDLOVU I have no idea of that thing. It was the first time I encountered such a thing. I never had seen it before. Or it was never administered to me before. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA This was at the ground? MR NDLOVU We had just left the ground. Not too far away from the ground. Nearby. MR LAX MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON Sounds like some sort of ultra violet type thing like they used in the last elections. Put on your hand and you put it ...(inaudible) MR CACHALIA Mr Ndlovu, ...(intervention) MR LAX Just hold on one second Mr Cachalia. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU This was done in the area Zevenfontein. MR CACHALIA Alright now, when you were in Court, when the charges were brought against you, what did you say, where did the traces of gunpowder come from? MR NDLOVU I was also confused because I did not know where that was from. MR CACHALIA Did you give evidence in your defence in your case in the High Court? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA And did they put to you the question about the gunpowder on your hand? The traces of you having handled a firearm, was that put to you in the case in the High Court? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA And what was your instruction to your attorney, where did that gunpowder come from? At that time, not today. MR NDLOVU It was difficult for me to say to my attorney that I did hold that firearm. CHAIRPERSON Did you deny that you had held a firearm? MR NDLOVU Yes, I denied. MR CACHALIA And if you denied that you had a firearm you must have given an explanation about where the tests proved that you had handled a firearm came from. You must have told your attorney about that. MR NDLOVU He never canvassed the matter any further after I denied it. MR CACHALIA And it was canvassed in the High Court also, when you gave evidence. MR NDLOVU No, no I was not questioned to that effect. MR CACHALIA What you are saying Mr Ndlovu is that you stand by the information that you gave here, that there was this particular position about something in a bottle which was passed over your hand. You stand by that particular position? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA And you say now that the only mistake you made was you said, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA The balance of that paragraph that was read to you previously, that is correct? That was read to you previously in your evidence-in-chief. MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Please may you repeat. MR LAX MR CACHALIA That is correct that you had said that in evidence-in-chief. Then you go on to say there were gunfights during the night. MR NDLOVU You mean at night? It was not during the night, it was late in the afternoon or in the afternoon. The shooting that transpired. MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR NDLOVU No, they did not arrive. MR LAX MR NDLOVU Yes, that is also wrong. MR LAX And they never asked you if you wanted a gun, if you had a gun? MR NDLOVU No, they did not ask me that. My story ends at the ground. MR LAX Yes just answer the questions and listen carefully. Carry on Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA Did the IFP at that stage in 1994 ...(intervention) MR LAX MR CACHALIA "...the reason for the conflict to my belief was that in 1994 the IFP decided not to partake in the election. That would have irritated the ANC and as a result of that the ANC started waging a war against the IFP. I wish to apply for amnesty because I was a victim of the ANC. I was a builder. I lost all my property and I have nothing left." MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA Are you a builder, sir? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA Did, did the IFP decide not to partake in the elections in 1994, as at February 1994 when this incident took place? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes, that much is true. I was a builder and my property was lost. MR CACHALIA I also - you go on to say "I also want amnesty because it was a war and people died on both side. I am also a victim because I am a member of the IFP. I was attacked by the ANC who attacked members of the IFP. People were arrested on both sides." MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR NDLOVU Yes, that is right. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes. Some portion of it I did say but some portion of it I did not say. And it surprises me as to where all of that emanates from, especially that I said there were members of IFP were killed or died, and from the ANC side as well there were members who were arrested. That is new. MR CACHALIA Now Mr Ndlovu, on the 28th of November 1996 when you made this statement you took an oath, you swore that what you are saying in this statement is the truth, that you knew and understood what was being said. Do you acknowledge that? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU ADV SIGODI MR NDLOVU He read as far as the ANC members. He only read about the IFP members who sustained injuries and died. I was also surprised to hear that much, because I know nothing of that. ADV SIGODI In other words you are telling us that he never read the whole affidavit back to you whilst you were consulting? MR NDLOVU Yes, I would agree with you. MR CACHALIA I want to say to you that that is improbable Mr Ndlovu. MR LAX MR CACHALIA It is a matter for argument sir. MR LAX MR CACHALIA Mr Ndlovu, do you remember who it is that took your, or who was the Commissioner of Oaths on that particular day, do you remember? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA No ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON So. Well for what, what do we need to know that for? If he can remember who it was or not? I mean. MR CACHALIA ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Right, well go ahead. INTERPRETER MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU I think if my memory serves me right, on that day we were filling the application form, it was late, and the attorneys arrived late in the first place, and we were quite a number of us, many, were going to fill up the application form. So that now in retrospect I realise that some of the mistakes were as a result of the communication, and some part would have been said by co-accused, because they were arrested the following day, yet I was arrested on Saturday, so when I looked ...(indistinct) I realised there were many mistakes, and those statements, or rather the form, was not read back to us, we were only furnished them with information and they made us, or instructed us to sign, and if that statement was read back to me I know I would have rectified the mistakes earlier than now. MR CACHALIA Mr Ndlovu. I want to put to you that that is the statement that you have made and that at that stage it was what you intended to convey, and that Mr Msizi nor Mr Claassen had any reason to put anything else but what you told them. Do you wish to make a comment about that? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA He said he had no time to explain to you and you then decided that you are also, he said that there are people who are dying. MR NDLOVU Yes. He did not say people are dying, he said there is a fight outside. People are fighting outside. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU MR LAX MR NDLOVU Well I agree. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU No, I still stand by that. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU May the speaker repeat what he has just said. MR CACHALIA When I went for an inspection there were streets name such Satywyte, Dastile and others going upwards. Is it past those places are you saying? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA May I just establish is it near Mr Mlauza's shebeen. MR NDLOVU Mr Mlauza is quite a distance from my house. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA Was it just a few minutes after you had arrived? MR NDLOVU When I arrived from work, I arrived at about past three. Since it was raining that day and the conditions as well, I did not notice the condition as well, as I was tired coming back from work that particular day on Saturday. I got home and relaxed on my bed. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes, it is so, because when I was explaining I did not explain as to whether I was coming from work at the time Mkhize arrived. MR LAX MR CACHALIA Thank you Mr Lax. Do you wish to make a comment about that now sir. MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA How long after that? MR NDLOVU After what? MR CACHALIA How long after you arrived at home die Mkhize arrive at your home and push the door open and walk in? MR NDLOVU I think I relaxed for about 45 minutes to 60 minutes. MR CACHALIA Relaxed for about 45 or 60 minutes. When you arrived at home was there any disturbances in Zevenfontein on your way to your shack? MR NDLOVU No, I did not notice anything. We were just walking freely from the taxi ranks, and I walked back home without noticing anything. It would have been also difficult for me to notice because it was raining that day for starters, and even if you wanted to look around or into something you would not be in a position to do that since the weather was not gorgeous, or it was raining. MR CACHALIA You did say you noticed a group of amabuto, when you arrived at home. MR LAX He said that was after he left with Mkhize. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU That will be a Zulu. Wait, when you see a group of men together, quite a big group, more than 50 so to speak, that will be amabuto in Zulu. MR CACHALIA Thank you. Now, just to clarify this position. Your attorney talked about going up the steps and so on. There are no steps in Zevenfontein that you go up on. CHAIRPERSON I think that came from the interpretation. They are talking about the steep, the hill. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU The way things were happening, they were happening so fast and abrupt, and these things were happening quite spontaneously at the same time. I think this happened in about 30 minutes time. This is because of the situation that prevailed at that particular time. So that to go astray was not easy, was quite difficult. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU The death was coming from the way up, and as well as to ... we were either faced by going across the river, as I already said that it was overflowing, that was death. And we decided to choose between the two devils, either that or the one that was facing us from the opposite direction, and decided to go the other way. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes, that is true. MR CACHALIA Now you had run from your shack towards the river. Is that right? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA And when you then saw people bearing down on you and you feared for your life. Is that right? CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA As the Chairperson, states there. I can leave it on that particular position. You joined the group of people and you went to the soccer field where it happened. Was ANC group at the soccer, on the other side of the soccer field? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA And firing shots at you? MR NDLOVU Yes. MR CACHALIA Did you see any handguns, any guns in the possession of the ANC supporters? MR NDLOVU No I would be lying, I did not see any firearms or guns. MR CACHALIA And you said there were several shots being fired at you and stones being thrown at towards you? MR NDLOVU Yes. ADV SIGODI Sorry Mr Cachalia, is it in dispute that there was this attack to the ANC and the IFP and the whole way in which it occurred, and that there was stoning and gunshots, is that in dispute? MR CACHALIA It certainly is. ADV SIGODI MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU That is, that will be very confusing, or I will not quite understand that if they will contradict what I said, because I just told you and explained to you about the situation that prevailed and things that were happening, and what transpired at the time, and I know nothing else except what I told you. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA Who were these people please? Because yesterday we were told that none of them were injured. None of the IFP people were injured. Who did you see at Morningside that was injured sir? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA And you say none of them were shot? MR NDLOVU Unfortunately we were not shot. CHAIRPERSON I think you mean fortunately. INTERPRETER Yes. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU The ANC people are our fellow brothers. The situation of that kind, I think it was the first, and would like to assume will be the last one. I would not therefore apply for amnesty with regard to that incident yet I will come here and lie. I lied good enough at the Court of law, but here I am here to tell the truth. I will not give this Commission evidence that is not true. MR LAX MR NDLOVU MR LAX MR NDLOVU MR LAX MR NDLOVU What I know, at, when we were there at Morningside, the people I was with, Sithole was not there. He was not at Morningside. MR CACHALIA MR LAX IFP Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA My apologies. IFP, sorry Mr Ndlovu, no leader of the IFP gave you instructions to do what you had in fact done on that particular day. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes, that is correct. MR CACHALIA Now I am suggesting to you that there was no reason for you, that there was no political objective that you were intending to achieve in going to fight, when there was no instruction given to you. MR NDLOVU As I explained that I am the follower of IFP. I know that not even one of the leaders had instructed us to fight, but as the situation presented itself we now had to survive. This was between IFP group and ANC group in that area. MR CACHALIA MR NDLOVU Yes, that is correct. MR CACHALIA And there was no, only thing that you did was in self-defence. MR NDLOVU Yes, that is true. MR CACHALIA Now when you killed this gentleman, when you partook in the killing of, or possible killing of this gentleman near the shebeen, the fellow with the briefcase, what was the self-defence there, sir? MR NDLOVU MR CACHALIA Then we will accept Mr Ndlovu that the, that your actions that day was clearly in a state of shock in a, in the mistaken belief that you were defending yourself. Is that correct? MR NDLOVU Yes, it is true, we were in a state of shock. We were shocked because the people we were fighting with were not our enemies as such. We were struggling together in the area together with them. Now I believe that as that Zevenfontein area is full of shacks, and as a result of that, that shows that we are struggling, economically we are not, we are struggling. And we were together in the struggle. And this happened unexpectedly. ADV SIGODI Mr Cachalia is it in dispute that there was an ANC IFP attack? That there was this political uprising? MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cachalia. Ms Lockhat do you have any questions. MS LOCKHAT No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DRAHT Only shortly Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu, were you under the impression that a person on the ground, the one that you kicked and beaten, was an ANC member? MR NDLOVU Yes, that is true. MR DRAHT MR NDLOVU So this was what you were referring to after Mr Chacalia asked you a question. MR CACHALIA MR DRAHT I have the same problem. So this was the correct version, Mr Ndlovu, your evidence in there? MR NDLOVU You mean about what I said? MR DRAHT Yes, that he said people, that Mr Mkhize said that "...why are you sitting here while people are dying?" And "...the IFP and the ANC are fighting." MR NDLOVU Yes. MR DRAHT That will be all Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Sigodi do you have any questions. ADV SIGODI Just one aspect that I want to clarify. What method did you use to identify IFP people, IFP leaders? MR NDLOVU ...(not translated) ADV SIGODI What would you use to identify as an IFP supporter or as an IFP person? MR NDLOVU That was quite easy. As we were coming for Jukskei River, going towards upward, there was an IFP office. There were people there. As we were approaching we saw people there and we could tell that that is Inkatha going the other direction. It was very easy for us to identify them. ADV SIGODI How did you identify them? MR NDLOVU As I have said, there was an office there. IFP office that is, which was located there, downward. As I said that, as they were going towards the upper direction they were coming from that IFP office. ADV SIGODI If you met somebody who was not coming from that office, how would you know if that person was IFP? MR NDLOVU You mean? ADV SIGODI If you met somebody who was not, who was coming from another direction, not from the direction of the office, how would you identify that person as being IFP supporter or member? MR NDLOVU You see my eyes focus on them, not on other people coming from sideways. I focused my eyes on the IFP office. As for the people who were coming from other direction, I did not bother about them. CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU ADV SIGODI I will ask you for the last time. I am saying to you, if you meet a person walking, simply walking, not in your group, how would you identify that person, or tell that person is an IFP or ANC? MR NDLOVU From my knowledge I knew IFP people and others who belonged to ANC. I knew them as well because we were in the same residential area. It will be an outsider that I will not know, but it will be easier if, it will be very easy as well for me to identify an outsider in the area because we all know one another, so a stranger or a visitor I could also tell. ADV SIGODI The person who came out of the shebeen, did you know him? MR NDLOVU That person at the shebeen I did not know. ADV SIGODI Can you say if he was an outsider or if he was a resident in that area? MR NDLOVU I would say that that was an outsider, because we will have outsiders coming to our area as well, to drink. ADV SIGODI In other words when you assaulted him you did not know whether or not he was an ANC or an IFP supporter? MR NDLOVU CHAIRPERSON Which you also had tried to do earlier in the day. MR NDLOVU You mean assaulting a person? CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU Yes, I was also running away to escape this whole thing and run away from this whole incident. ADV SIGODI Just one, the last aspect. How many times did you hit him? MR NDLOVU ADV SIGODI Do you remember who stabbed him with a spear? MR NDLOVU ADV SIGODI Do you know any people in that group, when this assault took place? MR NDLOVU You mean my group? ADV SIGODI Yes, the people who were with you when this assault took place on that person from the shebeen. MR NDLOVU Yes. ADV SIGODI Who were those? MR NDLOVU ADV SIGODI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX Thanks Chair, just one thing to follow up. The man who came out of the shebeen, clearly was not somebody who had been part of the attack on you. Is that not correct? MR NDLOVU MR LAX But you said all the others fled. CHAIRPERSON And also the likelihood of an attacker carrying a briefcase? MR NDLOVU MR LAX MR NDLOVU Yes that is true. We were in a state of shock as I said earlier on and when you are in that state you can not do anything right, you will end up doing wrong things as a result of being shocked. That is very true. MR LAX MR NDLOVU MR LAX MR NDLOVU Yes, fighting would have fought, would have run away if we could tell or if we saw that he fight was intensifying. MR LAX MR NDLOVU MR LAX Sorry, if you can just sit a little bit away from the mike. MR NDLOVU ...(not translated) INTERPRETER I beg your pardon. MR NDLOVU When I got out from the house I did not intend to fight. I intended to run away and escape and go to these others. I did not intend to fight. It was not my intention to fight. MR LAX MR NDLOVU Yes. MR LAX What I would like to know is then, what is then the reason why this fight started? And how you justify your actions. MR NDLOVU MR LAX MR NDLOVU If my memory serves my right as I said earlier on that I had limited time at home or in the area. Most of my time I spent at work and away. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON If you could just answer the question. The question was had you heard of any violence in the area before then? MR LAX A simple yes or no would be sufficient. MR NDLOVU MR LAX Now, you said the IFP group was around 100. MR NDLOVU Yes. MR LAX Mr Sithole told us it was around 20. MR NDLOVU MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU MR LAX Just one last thing. Did this, did your lawyer before he led your evidence, either this morning or yesterday afternoon, not go through this whole document with you? MR NDLOVU No, he just touched there and there. MR LAX MR NDLOVU MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht do you have any questions arising from questions put by the Panel? MR DRAHT Please Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu, after the first fight, before you went back to the shebeen, somebody shouted something and then you went back to the shebeen. What did he shout? INTERPRETER Shout or shoot? MR DRAHT Shout. MR NDLOVU MR DRAHT Did he say you must go back to see if there were any people, or any ANC members or ANC people. MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR DRAHT Can I rephrase my question Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT Did that person mention anything about other political parties when he shouted something? Is that? CHAIRPERSON MR NDLOVU No, please repeat that question. MR LAX Perhaps I could help here Mr Draht. Why, what were you going to the shebeen to look for people for? What was the purpose of going there? MR NDLOVU We had gone there to the shebeen as I said, that somebody had this opinion of view that we should go and see if there were no people at the shebeen. And we went there and we did not go inside. As we were approaching the shebeen we saw people running away, coming out and running away. MR LAX Was the idea to attack the people who might be there? MR NDLOVU Yes, it could have been the one of attacking, because if we found them there we would have assaulted them. MR DRAHT Just a moment, if you can give me a few seconds Mr Chairperson. One last question Mr Chairperson. Mr Ndlovu can you please tell me why would you say that your actions was political motivated? MR CACHALIA Sir, may I just at this stage say sir that he had never said that his actions were political. CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT Mr Ndlovu, were your actions politically motivated? MR NDLOVU With regards to this incident? MR DRAHT Yes. MR NDLOVU Yes, this was under this political umbrella. MR DRAHT Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen any further questions? MR CLAASSEN I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia? MR CACHALIA Thank you none. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Ndlovu, that concludes your testimony, you may step down. We will now take the tea adjournment for approximately 20 minutes. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ELIAS MBATHA: AM NO 7028/97 CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht? MR DRAHT Thank you Chairperson. I call Mr Elias Mbatha. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbatha do you have any objection to taking the oath? ELIAS MBATHA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht? EXAMINATION BY MR DRAHT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mbatha you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct? MR MBATHA That is correct. MR DRAHT You are in prison at the moment? MR MBATHA That is correct. MR DRAHT How long was your sentence? MR MBATHA Fifteen years. MR DRAHT MR MBATHA Yes. MR DRAHT Mr Mbatha can you read or write? MR MBATHA No I cannot read, I only can write my name. MR DRAHT Who took this statement from you? MR MBATHA Mr Msizi as well as this legal counsel, the one at the end. MR DRAHT Mr Claassen? MR MBATHA Yes. MR DRAHT Did they read the statement back to you? MR MBATHA Yes they did. MR DRAHT When they took it? INTERPRETER May the speaker please repeat the question. MR DRAHT Did they read the statement back to you at the time when they took the statement? MR MBATHA Yes, if I remember very well. MR DRAHT Did you tell the truth in Court? MR MBATHA No, I told lies. MR DRAHT Are you going to tell the truth now? MR MBATHA That is correct. MR DRAHT Mr Mbatha are you a member of a political party? MR MBATHA Yes. MR DRAHT What party? MR MBATHA The IFP. MR DRAHT And at the time of the incident I suppose you were also a member of the party. Is that right? MR MBATHA Yes, I was a member of the IFP. MR DRAHT What was your position in the party? MR MBATHA I did not have a position, I was just a follower. MR DRAHT For what charges are you applying for amnesty for? For what acts? MR MBATHA MR DRAHT Before this incident what was the situation in Zevenfontein? MR MBATHA The situation was not good. MR DRAHT Why do you say so? MR MBATHA The situation was not good in terms of the relationship between the IFP and the ANC. MR DRAHT Up until this date of the incident, or prior to this date of the incident, was there any violence or fighting between the two groups? MR MBATHA No, there was no fighting, but there was just a lot of talking. MR DRAHT Mr Mbatha in your statement you stated that Zevenfontein was a war zone at the time. To which time do you refer, or did you refer? MR MBATHA MR DRAHT Did you receive any instructions to act in the manner you did that day? MR MBATHA No, there were no instructions. CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA Would you please show me? CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA The first one is the one with, the first one is the correct one with one L. CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mbatha, who was your induna? MR MBATHA Mr Sithole. MR DRAHT Did he gave you any orders on that specific day? MR MBATHA No. MR DRAHT Can you describe to the Committee now what happened on the 12th of February 1994. MR MBATHA Yes. MR DRAHT Continue. MR MBATHA I took a firearm and put it on my waist, and we went out. ...(intervention) MR DRAHT What type of firearm did you take? MR MBATHA 765. MR DRAHT To whom did this firearm belong? MR MBATHA It was mine. MR DRAHT Did you possess any licence to have this firearm? MR MBATHA No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) have ammunition? MR MBATHA No. MR DRAHT Did you take an interest ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry, did he say the firearm had no ammunition? MR MBATHA MR LAX MR MBATHA I cannot remember. Because some of these rounds of ammunition were in my pocket. I think there were six of them in the firearm. MR LAX That was in the magazine? What you might call the cartridge of the firearm, some people call it a cassette. MR MBATHA I had six rounds of ammunition in my pocket. I cannot recall how many I had in the cartridge. MR LAX Thank you. MR DRAHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbatha why did you take the firearm with you at that stage? MR MBATHA I heard that the ANC were armed, and there was this talk that we had to moved their posters which were placed in our area of residence. MR DRAHT Continue. MR MBATHA MR DRAHT Mr Mbatha could you see with what were they shooting at you? MR MBATHA I could not make out, but I could tell from the sound that they were using firearms. MR DRAHT How many times? Did they shoot once or more than, or several times? MR MBATHA They fired several times. CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA Yes, I did hear that. MR DRAHT Continue. MR MBATHA They started running away when we exchanged gunfire, and they run, they ran towards the TPA offices. MR DRAHT Who in your group returned fire? MR MBATHA I too fired shots. Mr Sithole as well. MR DRAHT Could you see what Mr Sithole fired, with what type of gun? MR MBATHA He had this rifle, the one called AK. MR DRAHT Did you shoot at the ANC group? MR MBATHA Yes I shot at them. MR DRAHT Did you see if you hit somebody? MR MBATHA No, I could tell. I was just shooting at this group of people. MR DRAHT Continue. CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA There were many of them. They could have been 400, they were quite many. CHAIRPERSON How far away were you from them when you shot towards them? MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT I would say from the Chairperson right up to the exit point of these buildings. CHAIRPERSON That I think was 35 about 40 paces. I think it was 35 from, was it 35 from here. You paced it out Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA Yes, approximately 35 paces. CHAIRPERSON Continue Mr Mbatha. MR MBATHA And when they fled we went back. MR DRAHT Back where? MR MBATHA MR DRAHT Did you know this person? MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA Yes. MR DRAHT Continue. MR MBATHA We went back and we waited at the grounds, and the police came. I ran away. MR LAX MR MBATHA He was a distance away from where I was standing. He was on the other side and the ANC was fleeing towards a different direction. I only saw this person on our way back. MR LAX MR MBATHA MR LAX MR DRAHT Mr Mbatha, after the ANC people, when they started to run away, did you pursue them? MR MBATHA Yes we did. MR DRAHT And what happened then? MR MBATHA MR DRAHT While pursuing the ANC group, did you see any person get hurt, or being attacked by your group? MR MBATHA MR DRAHT What happened after you went back to the sports field? MR MBATHA We went to the sports field, and we stayed there. It was difficult for us to go back to the shacks, because we did not know whether these ANC people were coming back or not. And we decided to stay there, wait for them, and see whether they come back or not. And as we were standing there one police vehicle came along, and when it arrived I fled with the weapon that I was carrying. MR DRAHT When were you arrested? MR MBATHA I was arrested on Sunday. This happened on Saturday. MR DRAHT Where were you arrested? MR MBATHA I was arrested on my way to Zevenfontein, having come from the river where I had hidden to avoid arrest. MR DRAHT You stated there were about 400 persons in the ANC group. How many persons were in your group? MR MBATHA MR DRAHT Were they armed? The ANC group. MR MBATHA Yes, they were armed. MR DRAHT With what were they armed? MR MBATHA They had machetes and spears, as well as sticks. MR DRAHT Except for hearing the shots from their group could you see anybody with firearm in the ANC group? MR MBATHA No. MR DRAHT Except for Mr Sithole in your group, and yourself, did you see any other persons in your group with firearms? MR MBATHA The one person I saw was Mr Magwaza. MR DRAHT What kind of firearm did see with him? MR MBATHA He had a handgun. MR DRAHT Mr Mbatha are you sorry about the acts that you have committed that day? MR MBATHA Yes, I am very sorry. MR DRAHT That will be all Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Draht. Mr Claassen do you have any questions to ask the witness, the applicant? MR CLAASSEN NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia do you have any questions to ask this applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes, I did not see anyone. I only heard from the police that one of the people died around that place. MR CACHALIA And did you know that one of the persons had died at some other place quite higher up where he was stabbed and assaulted and he died as a result of that. Do you know that? The evidence that your previous co-accused gave. CHAIRPERSON Is that the one next to the shebeen, or a different place. MR MBATHA I would not dispute that because yes, some of our people were carrying spears. MR CACHALIA No just the person that Mr, your, the previous applicant discussed was Mr Alfred Malumale, who had died because of the assault on him. Mr Ndlovu gave that evidence. Did you hear that evidence? This morning. MR MBATHA Yes, I heard it quite well. MR CACHALIA That was higher up on that main road where the shooting took place. MR MBATHA Would you please repeat the question. I do not get it quite well. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA That is correct. MR CACHALIA Now on that road that goes towards the top of the settlement, the steep incline there, on that particular road Mr Malumale died higher up on there and not as a result of the shooting. Is that right? CHAIRPERSON Do you know? I think, ask him if he knows. MR MBATHA I would not dispute that, but I was not directly involved in that. MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR MBATHA Yes, I did not see it happen. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia mentioned that it was a gravel road. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes, I agree with you. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA I agree with you. MR CACHALIA MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR LAX Yes, but that was on the way back from the sports ground. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA MR CACHALIA When you shot at them did they run higher up towards the hill? Did they run upwards or did they come further down? MR MBATHA They ran upwards. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA I would not dispute that because I have no knowledge of metres. CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA They spread towards different directions. Some of them went up and some of them took different directions. They took all different directions. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA I had a reason to go past that place. MR CACHALIA Did you have anything to do with the killing of the person that was killed there? MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA No, I did not. MR CACHALIA The only activity that you were involved in on that particular day which might have constituted criminal activity was the shooting at the sports field, is that correct with an unlicensed firearm. MR MBATHA Yes, I did fire shots. MR LAX The question was not that you fired shots. The questions was, was that, the firing of shots, was that the only criminal activity you were involved in on that day? MR MBATHA It was not a criminal act. I was shooting at these ANC people. MR LAX But did you do anything else to the ANC people besides shooting them? MR MBATHA Nothing else. MR LAX Thank you. MR CACHALIA Thank you Mr Lax. So, if you had committed any act which might have constituted criminal activity, was the shooting at that place where you might have injured a some people or killed some people, is that right at the sports field between, sorry at the sports field and leave it at that. MR MBATHA It is possible people got injured or died because I was shooting at these ANC people. Yes, that is correct. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA As the Chairperson pleases. I will then not pursue that particular matter. Insofar as Mr Mbatha is concerned you made this particular statement in, on the 6th, sorry 6th of May 1997. And then there was a previous statement that you made on the 12th of December 1996. Is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Page 84. MR MBATHA I would not dispute that. May I please have a look at it. CHAIRPERSON MR LAX May I interpose for one second Mr Cachalia. Mr Mbatha, you must have filled out two application forms. Is that right? On two different occasions. MR MBATHA I cannot recall. MR LAX Because when you did the affidavit on the 12th of December 1996 that affidavit must have been attached to a form one. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER MR LAX MR MBATHA Yes I do remember the 1996 application. CHAIRPERSON So why did you fill in two applications? MR MBATHA The one that I made in 1996 was part of this request to come and appear before the Commission so as to tell the truth. MR LAX MR MBATHA The one affidavit that I made was such that I was not sure whether it would be successful. CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA It is possible that is not included. But I knew that I would tell the truth once I come before the Commission as I am doing now. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes that is the truth. MR CACHALIA "...there was a war waged against the IFP the ANC put up posters everywhere even on IFP shacks. This led to argument between the IFP and the ANC youth." Is that correct? MR MBATHA Yes, that is correct. MR CACHALIA Paragraph 2 says "...it was announced that the IFP youth brigade and the ANC youth league were in conflict." Is that correct? MR MBATHA Would you please repeat that? MR CACHALIA Your second paragraph says that it was announced that the IFP youth brigade and the ANC youth league were in conflict. Is that correct? MR MBATHA No, I do not remember writing the statement like that. MR CACHALIA Then the third paragraph says "...the argument about the posters was on Friday the 11th." Is that correct? INTERPRETER May the speaker please repeat the question. MR CACHALIA The paragraph three starts with saying that the argument about the posters was on Friday the 11th. Is that correct? MR MBATHA Yes, I agree with that. MR CACHALIA And it goes on to say "...on Saturday the 12th the ANC started attacking. We expected that as usual the conflict would be resolved by discussion. The ANC did not want to resolve in this manner but chose war." Is that correct? MR MBATHA Yes, I agree with that. MR CACHALIA Then it goes on to say "...I apply for amnesty because I am a victim in the sense that there was a war between the IFP and the ANC. I was arrested but none of the ANC." Is that correct? MR MBATHA Yes, I requested amnesty but I never said no one ANC member was arrested. ADV SIGODI MR CACHALIA Yes Chairperson. The final paragraph of your this affidavit of 12th of December says Is that correct? MR MBATHA I do not remember that quite well. CHAIRPERSON But is it correct or not? MR MBATHA MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON "...many people were crippled and killed by the ANC but none of the ANC were arrested." MR MBATHA MR LAX MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON But did it actually happen? Sorry. Did it happen in Zevenfontein that the ANC people killed many people. Forget about the statement. Did it happen? Do you know whether ANC inhabitants at Zevenfontein killed other people? MR MBATHA No, it did not kill anyone. MR LAX Just one last thing on this statement before you go on Mr Cachalia, if you would allow me. I see from the top of this statement that it comes from a firm of lawyers. Did lawyers come to you and take a statement from you, at Zonderwater in December 1996? MR MBATHA In 1997. MR LAX MR MBATHA Yes that is correct. MR LAX And this was faxed to the Commission on the 13th of December 1996. Now when your lawyers came, they came, did they, with an interpreter? MR MBATHA Yes, there was an interpreter. MR LAX Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA I cannot dispute that. ADV SIGODI Mr Cachalia did I hear you correctly? Are you saying that it is common cause? MR CACHALIA That is so. MR LAX Sorry, just repeat it for my benefit. I was distracted. I must apologise. MR CACHALIA MR LAX What is your answer to that Mr Mbatha. MR MBATHA Yes, I agree with the fact that Mr Sithole resolved the dispute with certain ANC leaders on that Friday. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA I said that because it had been discussed, or this was resolved between Mr Sithole and the ANC. We were still waiting for Mr Sithole, that is why I said that. MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR MBATHA I get you quite well. That also confused me. CHAIRPERSON So why do you think that there was a war on the Saturday, if the question about the posters had been resolved the day before? MR MBATHA I say the ANC people came to attack us, this is why I say that. MR CACHALIA Thank you sir. Mr Mbatha, I am saying that in both these applications the most central aspect of your amnesty application was not dealt with in that you did not admit to being in possession of an unlicensed firearm, you did not indicate that you had ammunition for that, you did not indicate that you were responsible for the murder of anybody, in the two applications that we have before us. Am I, is that correct, do you agree with that? MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA Then I am saying that you are today giving a version because you now realise that in order to get amnesty you need to give a version where you make some kind of admissions, but I am saying that you have not made full disclosure then nor have you made full disclosure today. MR MBATHA MR CACHALIA You had what was called an Astra pistol. Is that correct? MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA There was, the argument in the High Court about whether the ANC shot at you or not was discussed at length. Is that right? MR MBATHA Please may you repeat just that part. MR CACHALIA I am saying that in the High Court when the case was carrying on whether the ANC had shot at members of the IFP was a matter that was canvassed extensively. MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA "...not only is there no evidence to support this submission, it is all inherently improbable for had the ANC possessed any firearms one would have expected some casualties amongst the IFP group and none were reported." CHAIRPERSON What do you say about that finding of the Court, which was arrived at after hearing extensive evidence on this, relating to this whole incident? MR MBATHA MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA The police arrived after I finding out that there were killings there. MR CACHALIA MR MBATHA Yes. MR CACHALIA Your reason for going back to the sports field was that it was not safe for you to be in your own homes and you had to group yourselves in case you were attacked by members of the ANC. Is that the reason you gave to us? MR MBATHA MR CACHALIA And in fact before the police arrived no members of the ANC came back to attack you? MR MBATHA No, they did not arrive. MR CACHALIA I just want to finally put to you that, Mr Magwaza, sorry Mr Mbatha, I want to put to you that in fact shooting was commenced by members of the IFP group and then there was the reaction of the stone throwing towards the group that was stoning them, that was shooting at them. And there was no necessity to defend yourselves because there was no attack on you. MR MBATHA I refute that. I know ANC started first. MR LAX Sorry Mr Cachalia. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Lax, Mr Claassen. MR CLAASSEN Sorry, I just, I think Mr Lax we might have the same question. I believe Mr Cachalia put it to them that they shot in retaliation to stone throwing. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA That is correct sir. CHAIRPERSON That there was in response to the shooting some stoning by, from the ANC. MR CACHALIA As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cachalia. Do you have any questions? MS LOCKHAT No questions Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr Draht. MR DRAHT No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY M R DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sigodi do you have any questions to ask? ADV SIGODI No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA I shot several times. CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON When that firearm is full with rounds, how many does it take? MR MBATHA I think about seven or eight if my memory serve me right. CHAIRPERSON Did you use all the six rounds that were in your pocket? MR MBATHA I used the other six and the other six remained. CHAIRPERSON So you shot at least six shots? MR MBATHA I think it was six or more than six, because I shot several times. CHAIRPERSON And each time you shot did you point the firearm towards the ANC group before you fired? You aimed towards them and fired? MR MBATHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Lax. MR LAX MR MBATHA I would like for you to explain Mr Chair, you mean before or after the fight? MR LAX MR MBATHA MR LAX What position did Magwaza hold? MR MBATHA He was the chairperson. MR LAX So was his shop a rallying place for everybody? MR MBATHA They will go, people will go there, even those who like to drink liquor they will go there, and those who like to do some shopping or buy something they will go there. MR LAX MR MBATHA No, the store was closed by then. MR LAX Okay, so you just heard that people were gathering there and you went there? MR MBATHA Yes. MR LAX What happened there? Were there discussions? Did you speak to anyone else there? MR MBATHA When I got there I found the IFP group gathered, and they were asking one another as to what was happening, and they noted that the ANC is attacking, and there were no answers as such, because the ANC was approaching. MR LAX Was anyone in charge? MR MBATHA Sithole and Magwaza as well were those, those were the in charge ones. MR LAX Well what were they saying that gave you the impression they were in charge? MR MBATHA I will not be able to explain any sense, because I was seeing the ANC approaching and I was gearing towards this ANC approaching. MR LAX You see, the impression I get from listening to the evidence so far is that you all responded at the same time. As if some instruction was given. And in fact one of your colleagues said that an order was given for everybody to lie down. So everyone did lie down when the shooting started. MR MBATHA Yes, that word was uttered, I heard that also. MR LAX Well then how is it that you all got up at the same time and then proceeded to open fire? Surely somebody must have given and order about doing that, or said something, that you all responded at the same time? MR MBATHA MR LAX And everybody else just used the same discretion at the same time? MR MBATHA Well they shot as well. MR LAX And you all ran after them at the same time. Is that not correct? MR MBATHA You see when we ran after them, as soon as they shot at us we shot back at them and they fled, and we ran after them. MR LAX MR MBATHA That I will disagree with, as to whether there was a person or not who was issuing instructions. We happened to have acted the same way the same time. There was no-one as such who was issuing or giving orders. I used my discretion and so were the others. MR LAX Okay now, just a last aspect. Where exactly did you pursue people to? You personally. MR MBATHA As I was shooting and running after them some people shouted behind, that is the IFP members, telling us we should stop. MR LAX So how far did you get while you were chasing them? You personally. MR MBATHA MR LAX So how far from the ground had you gone, approximately? MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON Is that the street with the traffic, not the car park, the street where the traffic drives, the main road outside? MR MBATHA Yes, the main road there where the traffic passes. CHAIRPERSON Would that be about 100, 120 metres. MR CACHALIA That is what we have estimated yesterday. MR LAX One last absolute final aspect, and that is, these people were running away, you were no longer in any danger, why did you chase them and carry on shooting? MR MBATHA Yes, they were running, but because we were highly infuriated on them attacking us, we then kept following and running after them and shooting. It was all based on the anger we had, this deep-rooted anger. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sigodi has indicated she would like to ask a question. Advocate Sigodi? ADV SIGODI Whilst you were shooting at the people at the stadium, how far was Mr Sithole away from you? Or did you see Mr Sithole during that shooting? MR MBATHA He was quite a distance from me. It could be from here towards the door. CHAIRPERSON About 30 paces. ADV SIGODI MR MBATHA Yes, I agree with him, I saw that. ADV SIGODI What did you think it was? Was it an AK-47 or was it something else? MR MBATHA Those were, that was the AK-47 ammunition. ADV SIGODI Then one final aspect. Mr Sithole mentioned that there was going to be a meeting KwaZulu Natal, there was going to be busses. Do you know anything about that as an IFP member? MR MBATHA Yes I do remember, there was going to be a meeting. CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA I had it for the purpose of defence, self-defence as that was a state of war. CHAIRPERSON For how long had you had that firearm? MR MBATHA It was not too long ago, I think about six months. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get it from? MR MBATHA CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht do you have any questions arising from the questions put by the Panel? MR DRAHT No question Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen? MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia? MR CACHALIA Thank you no. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No questions Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON MR MBATHA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION M MPONGOSI: AM NO: 7686/97 CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht? Is this Mr Mpongosi. MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpongosi do you have any objection to taking the oath? Do you have any objection to taking the oath? M MPONGOSI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht? EXAMINATION BY MR DRAHT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mpongosi you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct? MR DRAHT For what acts are you applying for amnesty for? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT And any specific acts? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT What acts? MR MPONGOSI This relates to the injuries of ANC people at Zevenfontein, as well as being in possession of illegal firearm and ammunitions, and murder, attempted murder as well. MR DRAHT Were you at the time of the incident a member of any political party? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Which party? MR MPONGOSI The IFP. MR DRAHT What was your position in the party? MR MPONGOSI I was just a follower. MR DRAHT What did you plead when you were tried in Court? MR MPONGOSI I pleaded not guilty. MR DRAHT Did you tell the truth in Court? MR MPONGOSI No, I told lies. MR DRAHT Are you going to tell the truth today? MR MPONGOSI Yes, I will tell the truth today. MR DRAHT MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT This statement was dated May 1997 and was taken in Zonderwater Prison. MR MPONGOSI That is correct. MR DRAHT Mr Mpongosi can you read or write? MR MPONGOSI No I cannot. I just can write my name, not to read and write. MR DRAHT Can you remember who took this statement from you? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Who took it? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT Is that Mr Claassen? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Did they read your statement back to you before you signed it? MR MPONGOSI No, they just came and I signed and they took it along. MR DRAHT "...It was in Zevenfontein. The ANC and IFP were fighting." Is that correct? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Then you went on stated "...The ANC attacked our houses." Is that correct? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Is it to correct to state that the ANC attacked your houses? MR MPONGOSI I said they were attacking our houses because they were on their way to attack us and we decided to meet them halfway to stop them from reaching our children and wives. To stop them from reaching our houses. MR DRAHT You also said "...We did not want to fight with them but they came to our houses to attack us. We only defended ourselves. The ANC did not come to talk, they wanted to wage a war." MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT MR LAX I think if I could just perhaps put on record the situation which we learnt during the lunch hour. MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Is there anything you would like to add Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT That is correct Chairperson, and if you could just mark those annexures as exhibits handed in as ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht? MR DRAHT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mpongosi, did you sign this statement dated the 12th of December? MR MPONGOSI CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT Is this your signature? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Was this statement read to you before you signed it? MR MPONGOSI No, it was not read to me. MR DRAHT Mr Mpongosi can you please now tell us what happened on the 12th of February 1994 at Zevenfontein. MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT This Mr Majola, does he belong to any political party? MR MPONGOSI Yes, ANC. MR DRAHT So you saw a group of ANC people, is that correct? MR MPONGOSI That is correct. MR DRAHT With what did you say they were armed? CHAIRPERSON Spears, bush knives or machetes, same sort of thing. MR MPONGOSI Yes they had spears and machetes as well as knopkierries. MR DRAHT And then what happened? MR MPONGOSI And as I was going past them, it could have been a distance after I passed them, and Majola started attack me with a knopkierrie, and I ran away. MR DRAHT How did he attack you? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT Where did he hit you on your body? MR MPONGOSI He hit me on the back. MR DRAHT How many times? MR MPONGOSI No, he actually threw this knopkierrie once because I was running away. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, were you alone? MR MPONGOSI Yes, I was alone at the time. MR DRAHT Continue. MR MPONGOSI I then left, and Sithole promised that he was going to ask them. Myself and these other two then left. MR DRAHT Mr Mpongosi, what time did this happen? What time on the 12th? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT How many people was in this group approaching you? MR MPONGOSI They could have been six or seven, and we were three. MR LAX Just sorry to interpose Mr Draht. Where was this, Mr Mpongosi? MR MPONGOSI You mean the beating, the fact that I was beaten? CHAIRPERSON MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT Sorry, to, could you see to who Zwane directed the shot? MR MPONGOSI He was shooting towards the ANC, but he was targeting them directly, he just fired a deliberate miss. MR DRAHT Mr Mpongosi, who explained to you? You say they explained, who explained? MR MPONGOSI Magwaza. He explained that yes we can see these people, they are coming, it looks like they are armed with spears. They outnumber us. And we were talking and we realised that it was now getting difficult. Magwaza went into the house, came out with a firearm and gave it to Sithole, and he had his own. We were talking, arguing there at that point, suggesting that instead of these people reaching us here, because we had children around, we suggested that we should move out and meet them at the grounds, we should not allow them to get nearer, they will injure us, the women and the children. And the Jukskei River was full, it was not safe. We should die in the battle, let us go and face them. Indeed, we went to the sports grounds and they kept on coming. We could see them. They quite outnumbered us. They had arrived. And we realised that, or should I say we went towards the end of the grounds. MR DRAHT The group you are referring to now as they, is that the ANC group? MR MPONGOSI Yes, the ANC group that was coming. We were on the upper end of the sports field. They actually started shooting from a distance. MR DRAHT How many shots did they shoot? MR MPONGOSI They did not shoot once, they shot several times incessantly, there was a brief pause, and they continued, and they also pelted us with stones. MR DRAHT Could you see in whose direction did they shoot? MR MPONGOSI They were shooting at us, because they were shooting such that they also hit the shacks which we were using to hide. By that time we had fled. We had left the grounds and we were lying down around the shacks, and they were up there. And it dawned on us that these people were indeed fighting. MR DRAHT Did they do anything else except shoot? CHAIRPERSON He said they pelted them with stones. MR DRAHT My apologies, Mr Chair. MR MPONGOSI Yes, they were shooting us and pelting us with stones at the same time. MR DRAHT Who in your group fired at them? MR MPONGOSI After they had fired, we also fired. I was shooting as well. MR DRAHT How many shots did you fire at them? MR MPONGOSI I had a fully loaded 38, and it could load six. I exhausted all the six rounds of ammunition. MR DRAHT And did you direct your shots directly at them, at the group? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Did you see anybody else in your group firing? MR MPONGOSI Yes I saw some people who were shooting. MR DRAHT Do you know their names? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR DRAHT Who were they? MR MPONGOSI Zwane was shooting, he was shooting from behind a shack, but I could see him. But I could hear that he was shooting from his spot. And insofar as Sithole is concerned I saw him going into a shack that was roofed, a shack that was still under construction, and he apparently was shooting through the window, and Mbatha was on the other side of Sithole and I could see him shooting as well. Magwaza was far away from me and I could not tell whether he was shooting or not, but yes I did see him with a firearm. MR DRAHT At that stage could you see anybody was struck by the bullets? MR MPONGOSI I was shooting at this group of people. The one person whom I saw falling down is one. We were running and I saw him fall down, and when I went through the other side of the shack I saw one body that was lying down, and I was pursuing this one group that was carrying an injured person, a group that was running towards the PTA offices. I was trying to pursue them. MR DRAHT Why did you try to pursue them? MR MPONGOSI I was pursuing them because we have a quarrel with the ANC. They wanted to kill us and so I wanted to kill them as well. MR DRAHT What happened then while pursuing them? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT What happened then? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT Where did you sat down? INTERPRETER Would you please repeat the question. MR DRAHT Where did you sat down? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT Mr Mpongosi, how many people were approximately in the IFP group? MR MPONGOSI You talking about people who were arrest, or? CHAIRPERSON MR MPONGOSI That will be difficult for me to say, because I was so infuriated but yes, I must give an estimation. I cannot be sure, they could have been thirty-something to 40. That is my estimation. I am not certain about that because it was quite busy. MR DRAHT Sorry Chairperson, Mr Mpongosi how many people was before the shooting in the ANC group? MR MPONGOSI They were so large in number, such that I cannot even begin to estimate, but yes, they were many. They could have been two big groups, two very big groups. MR DRAHT You said that the IFP were about 40 persons. How many times the IFP group, would the say the ANC group was? MR MPONGOSI We could have had to be many many times in a group to equal the ANC. Maybe three times. MR DRAHT The firearm you had in your possession, was it your firearm? MR MPONGOSI Yes, it was my firearm. MR DRAHT Did you have a licence for that firearm? MR MPONGOSI No I did not. MR DRAHT Where did you get it from? MR MPONGOSI I had bought it had Zevenfontein. I had had it for days, at the time. MR DRAHT Can you remember from who did you buy it? MR MPONGOSI There are Shangaan boys who came. I used to refer to them as Sambonani. CHAIRPERSON Why did you buy it? MR MPONGOSI Around those days it had become apparent that we would end up fighting, because there was fighting between the IFP and the ANC all over the place, that each one of us had to prepare themselves. MR DRAHT How much ammunition did you have with you? MR MPONGOSI I had six loaded, but I did not have enough. I had six loaded and four extra. MR DRAHT What type of firearm did Mr Sithole shoot with? MR MPONGOSI I noticed that he had an AK, because of the barrel. MR DRAHT Can you remember how many persons were injured that day, from the ANC side? MR MPONGOSI I have no certainty, I only learned well whilst we were at Morningside at the police station where I was informed that four people were injured, actually four died, and seven of them were injured during the fighting. This was confirmed at the police station. MR DRAHT The person that you referred to earlier on being shot, the person that fell to the ground, did you know him? MR MPONGOSI MR DRAHT That will be all Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Draht. Mr Claassen do you have any questions? MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Mr Chair if I could just approach you, without even ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Approach. Mr Draht? MR CLAASSEN Pardon me, Mr Sithole. CHAIRPERSON Oh Mr Sithole yes. MR CLAASSEN Mr Sithole yes, that is correct. Something was just said about him, which I would just like to get some clarification on if I may. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR CLAASSEN NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Claassen. Mr Cachalia, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CACHALIA Mr Mpongosi you told us about what had happened on the Saturday morning as you were coming from the Jukskei River. And your confrontation with Mr Majola. And then you told us about a meeting with the people on the sports field, with spears and whatever else they might have. When was the first confrontation with the Majola incident when you were coming up from the Jukskei River? MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA Coming up from the river first happened and then you met the people on the sports field. Am I right? MR MPONGOSI You mean coming from the river? MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA Clearly that would be incorrect because you said that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI It was the brother, the late. MR CACHALIA He was the person you met with six or seven other people on the sports field? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA And they were armed. MR CACHALIA And you say that you asked them not to approach you and there was a shot fired and they ran away. By your companion ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA You reported that to Mr Sithole, is that right? MR MPONGOSI The people who approached from the other direction, I was already coming from Mr Sithole ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpongosi the question is, did you report that confrontation you had with, the late Mr Dastile on the sports field to Mr Sithole. That is the question. The answer is a yes or a no. MR MPONGOSI MR LAX MR MPONGOSI I already reported to Sithole. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI CHAIRPERSON The question was did you report it to Sithole? MR MPONGOSI No, I did not report to Sithole this incident. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole was your induna, is that correct? Sorry, may I proceed? Mr Sithole was your induna, is that right? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA You did meet him later in the day. MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA And you did not consider it appropriate to inform him about that? MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI No, I did not report to him what happened at the soccer field. MR CACHALIA Did you report to anybody what had happened at the soccer field, that is any of the other applicants, or Mr Magwaza, or anybody else in the IFP? MR MPONGOSI I would like to explain this, Magwaza, at that point in time, before he came back from town, I would have reported to him, and ended up reporting to Sithole. I did not get hold of Sithole until afterwards when he joined us down there after seeing this eruption of a fight. CHAIRPERSON MR MPONGOSI I did not report the soccer field incident. MR CACHALIA I have put it to the previous applicant about what the Judge in the Court had found about the improbability of ANC members having firearms. Did you hear that? MR MPONGOSI Yes I heard you mentioning that. MR CACHALIA I want to put it to you that none of the ANC members who were there at the incident on that day had any firearms. MR MPONGOSI May I be given this opportunity to say this? I was there, I was present, I did not see any firearms but I heard the gunshots from the ANC side, and the pelting of stones as well. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI I did say that. In actual fact, the ANC group when they were shooting we hid behind the shacks and they continued shooting. We were hiding behind the shacks, hiding from this attack of stones and shooting. I know, and I am also reiterating the fact that they started shooting. MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI I say what, we did exactly that. We did not throw ourselves on the ground or ...(indistinct) like that. They also meant, I think, to say they took refuge and his up behind the shacks or the houses. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI I think it was in December. It was around November because by the time it was December I already had the firearm. The previous year. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA What had happened to give you an indication that there was going to be fighting? MR MPONGOSI I said for me to want a firearm, it was apparent, being apparent that IFP and ANC will be involved in some kind of war or fight. We had to be vigilant, and very alert, so that whatever happens, or whatever violence or fight that may break we will be aware and alert. MR LAX Yes the question was ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI He went further. The applicant went further than that. He mentioned that there was violence throughout the country between the ANC and the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Which I think we can accept as being the position. Not throughout the country, but widespread violence. MR CACHALIA Thank you Chairperson I think in fairness to him it is appropriate that this difference is brought to our attention. I am saying what had happened in Zevenfontein to make you believe there was going to be fighting between the IFP and the ANC? MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI Even before I acquired this firearm we would be having differences and we will solve those differences. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI It is because I knew very well that I was an IFP member and the way the fight had intensified in this country between IFP and ANC it was necessary for me to acquire a firearm to have in my possession for the purpose of defence. MR CACHALIA May I put it to you lastly Mr Mpongosi, that nothing happened in Zevenfontein to give you the impression that there was going to be any fights breaking out or any war erupting between IFP and ANC members because you had always sorted it out peacefully previously. MR MPONGOSI The solving of problems would be leading to a fight. One can tell that something is brewing in this whole thing. One could tell the result or the consequence still of this problems being solved, that they will lead to a fight. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA Why did you think Mr Mpongosi, that there was going to be any trouble because you had already chased away the Dastiles, Mr Dastile and his group, sorry not the Dastiles. MR MPONGOSI I had said that I saw those people with spears in their possession, and the assortment of weapons. When I took the firearm it was a result of this. I also could tell that they were not necessarily running away absolutely from us, they would come back, one time around after this. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI I will relax and sit back and not go and get my firearm as well, after having seen the way they were armed, the ANC group that is. MR CACHALIA Did you, sorry, my apologies sir, did you tell Mr Sithole about the incident with Mr Majola at the Madadani shop at any stage. MR MPONGOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON He said so in his evidence-in-chief. That is why, in fact, he went to Mr Sithole, specifically because of that. MR CACHALIA Mr Sithole had not indicated any of that incident to us when he gave his evidence. MR CLAASSEN "...I heard a noise outside and people shouting each other. Mr Zwane arrived with approximately four to five IFP members. They knocked at my door and asked what was happening. The men informed me that ANC members were attacking them." CHAIRPERSON MR LAX No that was in the night. CHAIRPERSON That was the night before, sorry. Oh yes then he says at 3 a.m. I heard toyi toying. MR CACHALIA Further down I think ...(inaudible) Mr Claassen brings to our attention. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Zwane and M with a question mark. I think it was probably Mpongosi came and said ANC were attacking. ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes so. ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Not the first time. MR CACHALIA Mr Mpongosi there was a problem between yourself and some people at the Maloesi shebeen earlier. Do you know about, do you have any recollection about that? MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA The evidence that is going to be led is that you had gone to the shebeen of Mr Moloesi and that they refused to serve you there because of your because of whatever problems they had, and as a result of that there was conflict there and the parties arrived the two parties the ANC and the IFP arrived and attempted to sort out that problem. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when was that approximately in relation to the date of the incident? MR CACHALIA It was on Saturday Chairperson, before the incident. CHAIRPERSON MR MPONGOSI There is some difficult here the way they explained or said it in Court. What I know with regard to Moloesi and the problem thereof, was that I went to Moloesi and said to him, "...how come, Mr Moloesi you say this shebeen of yours you only want the ANC people in it and patrolling it, and that will create some problems between ANC and IFP." But that did not happen on that Saturday, that happened previously, Friday. I think you are mixing up issues here. This did not happen that day. CHAIRPERSON MR MPONGOSI ...(not translated) No not the one, on the 11th, not that Friday, the previous. CHAIRPERSON The 4th? The previous Friday, not the 11th, the Friday before, the 4th? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI You see that assault story is the first time I hear that. Even way back in Court I did not hear that. This my very first encounter with that knowledge. I never done that. MR CACHALIA MR MPONGOSI MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON He said even in the High Court it, he disagreed with it. MR LAX Never heard it. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR CLAASSEN Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He said he heard it for the first time in the Court. Yes. MR CACHALIA Yes, then I. MR LAX MR CACHALIA MR CLAASSEN Mr Chairperson that is not in dispute. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN I thought Mr Cachalia was referring to that incident on the 4th or Friday. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON "This gathering was apparently result of an argument which had allegedly, something taken place in a shebeen." MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA As the Chairperson wishes, I will lead evidence about that particular matter, sir. Mr, sorry sir, that would be the last question that I have, sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Only one question. Why did Mr Majola attack you? What was the reason for the attack, do you know? MR MPONGOSI I did not know why he attacked me. I think the reason why he attacked me was due to the fact that I was an IFP member and in my mind, what occurred in my mind was that that was what they intended to do. MS LOCKHAT How did he know that you were an IFP member? MR MPONGOSI CHAIRPERSON How did Majola know that you were IFP? MR MPONGOSI MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht do you have any re-examination? MR DRAHT No re-examination Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sigodi do you have any questions? ADV SIGODI I just want to ask one aspect on the issue of the firearms. Do you know if the IFP had collected money to buy firearms? In Zevenfontein. MR MPONGOSI Yes, because of the situation that prevailed at the time that necessitated us to collect some money and purchase firearms. ADV SIGODI Are you referring to a situation in Zevenfontein or are you referring to a situation elsewhere? MR MPONGOSI What occurred in other places elsewhere prompted us to deem it fit to buy or purchase firearms. ADV SIGODI Did you make any contributions to buy firearms at Zevenfontein? Did you personally make any contribution to buy the firearms for the IFP? MR MPONGOSI ADV SIGODI MR MPONGOSI I gave it to Mr Magwaza and said he should give it to Ben. Ben who is the secretary. And I left it there. ADV SIGODI MR MPONGOSI No I did not check, but I laboured under the impression that Mr Magwaza as our senior he will tell us and inform us with such information. ADV SIGODI ...(inaudible) was it necessary for you to go and get your own firearm? If the IFP had this idea of collecting money for firearms for IFP people. MR MPONGOSI With regards to my firearm, I already had mine when that happened. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, any questions? MR LAX MR MPONGOSI MR LAX His evidence to us was that you went there twice, and in particular, and very importantly, once when there was a group of about 100 people that surrounded his house. His evidence was, it was the same group of people that left his house on the first occasion who then came straight back, because they saw this big group around his house. MR MPONGOSI I think he is mistaken the second time because I went there once. MR LAX ...(inaudible) Zwane, correct? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI You mean, are you referring to this group of us present here? MR LAX Your co-accused. MR MPONGOSI No, there is no any other Zwane. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI Using the first what? MR LAX You see that? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX Who came to take that statement from you? MR MPONGOSI At first this attorney on the other hand came together with Msizi. And the second time it was himself the attorney, that is alone without Msizi. MR LAX ...(inaudible) attorney speak to you the second time? Did he use an interpreter? MR MPONGOSI He made use of the policemen in prison. MR LAX ...(inaudible) Msizi was present and the lawyer was present? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX And you remember that incident? It was in December of 1996. MR MPONGOSI Yes I do remember. MR LAX Now, what happened? Did they ask you questions? MR MPONGOSI I was talking, I was the one talking. MR LAX ...(inaudible) Did they ask you questions and you answered and explained what was the story? MR MPONGOSI They asked questions and I thereafter talked. MR LAX In reply to your questions they wrote down the answers? In reply to the questions and in reply to what you told them the answers were then written down? MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX And at some point that was converted into a typed document, from handwriting to typing. MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX Now, you said that this was not read back to you. MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX Were you maybe mistaken? MR MPONGOSI MR LAX MR MPONGOSI MR LAX MR MPONGOSI I will not say I disagree with that. Maybe part of it I would agree with what is there and disagree part of it resulting to interpretation of the interpreter maybe. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX So how could he make a mistake interpreting what you said? MR MPONGOSI MR LAX MR MPONGOSI I did make mention of the fact of the posters, with regards to the posters, but the problem was when now they brought those posters and pasted them on our shacks, now that created a problem, pasting those posters on our shacks, the IFP shacks that is. MR LAX Was there a war at that stage that the posters were put up? MR MPONGOSI MR LAX What you meant to say. MR MPONGOSI Yes. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI MR LAX Who announced that the IFP youth brigade and the ANC youth league were in conflict? Who announced that? MR MPONGOSI It was not announced, but it was my opinion that these two, these people were fighting or were arguing. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI Yes, because I could see that they did not like what was happening. MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR MPONGOSI Yes that was the purpose of the affidavit, to tell the truth or to expose all the truth, but when I was doing this affidavit I had not fully or well, been well informed about his amnesty procedure, as to who to go about filling the application forms for the amnesty. That confused us a great deal and that brought some disturbance to me as well. But then I told myself that when this goes through I will therefore be afforded an opportunity to explain word for word. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI We were with Msizi and we did that, but now he did not explain it well. MR LAX MR MPONGOSI MR LAX One last aspect. You - Advocate Sigodi asked you about the collection of these monies, when were these monies collected? MR MPONGOSI You mean the Zevenfontein? CHAIRPERSON MR MPONGOSI You would leave either that money to Ben or Magwaza and leave and it will, the responsibility will lie entirely ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The question was when did that happen? When, what date, what month? MR MPONGOSI MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just very briefly Mr Mpongosi, would you, would I be correct to say that you were a very staunch IFP supporter, almost to the point of being an activist? Why I say that is because from yourself, you say that you went to the shebeen and joined issue with the owner about who he should serve, you purchased a firearm for political reasons you say, you donated money for the purchase of firearms. Were you a very staunch active supporter? MR MPONGOSI Yes, I was a staunch member. CHAIRPERSON On the ...(indistinct) you were angry, were you? MR MPONGOSI No, yes, I was very angry because of what happened, because of the condition. CHAIRPERSON Because you got your rifle, I mean your firearm, without anybody asking you to fetch it. You just did it on your own volition. Is that correct? MPONGOSI Yes I went to collect the firearm out of my own volition because of the situation. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Draht any questions arising? MR DRAHT No questions Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen? MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia? MR CACHALIA Thank you sir, no questions NO QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mpongosi, that concludes your evidence. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht? MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for your applicants? MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia? MR CACHALIA Thank you Chairperson, I call Mr Dastile. CHAIRPERSON Please tell me your full names. MR DASTILE Sindisile Wilford Dastile. Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to taking the oath Mr Dastile? SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia. EXAMINATION BY MR CACHALIA Mr Dastile, in December of 1993 and before this incident in 1994, were you a member of any political organisation. MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA Which organisation is it? MR DASTILE ANC. MR CACHALIA How long have you been a member of the ANC? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA Mr Dastile I think it is common cause that your brother died in this particular incident on the 12th of February 1994. Is that right? MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA Now was, did you suffer any injuries? MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA Where did you suffer an injury? MR DASTILE On the neck. MR CACHALIA How did that injury happen? MR DASTILE I was shot at. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA Tell us what happened. MR DASTILE What had happened before we left, it was to remove, or have the people who were right next to the electric wires be moved and those were right next to the river in case the river overflows there will be problems, so they had to be moved from that particular area to another spot. MR CACHALIA ...(inaudible) to higher ground? MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA On your return in 1994, or on Thursday the 10th of February, did anything take place on that particular day in relation to this? MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA Tell us what happened please. MR DASTILE We were allocating land to some people there in the upper ground, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA You said, came to your brother Dastile to discuss this particular issue. Was your brother alone or was there other people with him? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA Who was the other people that were present? Please tell me. It was your brother, yourself, who else was there? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA Mr Dastile, I just want the general summary of what happened, it is not very relevant just to get the background of the matter. You and your brothers and the other persons mentioned met Mr Sithole and the other person, Zwane and Mpongosi to discuss the issue of the allocation of land. That was on the 10th of February, is that right? MR DASTILE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA As a result of that particular meeting did you arrange anything with the IFP members? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA ...(inaudible) was to meet the ANC committee meet. With whom must they meet, with the IFP or with the community in general? What was the position please? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA Then, after that on Friday, the next day ...(intervention) MR LAX Sorry Mr Cachalia, where was this, when was this meeting to be? MR DASTILE This meeting took place Thursday afternoon. CHAIRPERSON That meeting, at that meeting you say it was then decided that the civic committee, the ANC committee and the IFP committee had to get together to discuss it. When was it arranged for that next meeting of the three committees? When was that meeting planned for? MR DASTILE It was going to be on that very day Thursday when we were discussing it or planning for the next meeting, the committee meeting that is. We met that very Thursday afternoon. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE Yes, that meeting was planned on the Thursday. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE Let me try and explain something here, maybe you misunderstood me. When Mr Sithole came to us and talked to my brother and whilst we were busy building the shack, he asked about this, that lady that went to them and relayed some information to them. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA You arranged to meet again on Saturday. MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA What time were you supposed to meet? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE It was to solve this shack problems and the posters of ANC that were torn apart by and destroyed by the IFP. MR CACHALIA ...(inaudible) MR DASTILE on Friday. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Yes. When the ANC youth league put up these posters on Friday, members of the IFP youth brigade followed them from behind, removing and tearing these posters into pieces. And when we received this information from our members of the youth league we therefore saw it necessary to meet with Mr Sithole. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE We had already informed him and I cannot comment any further about what happened thereafter. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE No, I cannot dispute that, but I did not see that happening. MR CACHALIA Yes, now on Saturday? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA Sorry, Mr Dastile, if where the IFP shack is where our Chairperson is sitting, how far away was your shack, can you indicate insofar as the distance is concerned? MR DASTILE From the Chairperson right up to the exit point of this building. CHAIRPERSON At the end of the car park? MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE Possibly yes. Because it looks like the same distance. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE When they arrived they started talking and shouting at the top of their voices, especially the person who was addressing them, saying that Amakhoza, Amapondo and Amabata should leave, should get out of Zevenfontein on that very same Saturday, on the 12th. MR CACHALIA What did you do as a result of what you had heard had happened there? You report this to anybody? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE ADV SIGODI MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA Mr Dastile, this person that you mentioned, Max April, Caswell Tchala and William Mazililele, to which political party, if any, do they belong? MR DASTILE The ANC. MR CACHALIA Please carry on. You go there and you, you were going there you found them either there or on the way and then what happened? Please tell us. MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE And when we went to the ANC, and at that time I must point out that people had gathered at the ANC office, worrying about the threats. We came to address the people about that. My brother actually was the one who was to address them on that matter. And as he was addressing them people said, "...This is not an empty threat. It looks like Inkatha are intent on doing something today." My brother said Sithole will not allow that to happen. And after Dastile had addressed the people, the people seemed to understand and he had to go back to Sithole to report back, because he was, Sithole that is, was going to talk to the IFP and they had to report back to each other. And Dastile was again delegated, together with his deputy Caswell Tchala, they were delegated to go and talk to Sithole and establish as to how this can be resolved. I volunteered to accompany them so that I could be the third person. I wanted to hear this myself. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE That is correct. MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR CACHALIA What I want to know is, what, did you see Sithole, was he around at that time when you told your brother to go ahead? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Yes. MR CACHALIA Where did they stop, or did they continue, or where was your brother in relation? I just want to know you know precise details about that. MR DASTILE When they came at the point where they stood my brother was not a distance away. The IFP stood what could have been about 30 metres from my brother. MR CACHALIA Were they on the sports field or were they not on the sports field? MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE My brother was standing in the middle of the sports field, he left us and went to stand in the middle of the sports field waiting for Sithole to come and meet him. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Sithole came with this other group of people which came to join the Inkatha youth at the big rubbish bin. They joined together and they came as one big group. That is when my brother was called, saying he should come back because these people are not coming in peace. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE At that very same moment I heard my brother calling out to me saying, "...These people have hurt me." I went to my brother and held his hand, at that moment I realised that he was losing his strength. There is one other person who came and assisted me. There were two of these ANC members and we, they carried him on the shoulders, suggesting that I should leave him because I was injured as well. And they carried Qolile too. MR CACHALIA Thanks. Mr Dastile what was the size of the group of IFP and the size of the group of ANC at that time, in your estimation? MR DASTILE They could have been 100 IFP members. Hundred or more, they were certainly not less than hundred. And of the ANC group we could have been about 200, or even slightly more than that because people had fled their shacks and they were heading towards the ANC office. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Yes, that is correct. The office is on the third street. MR CACHALIA And you have to go a certain distance inside? MR DASTILE That is correct. MR CACHALIA You talked about Qolile Present having been injured in front of you. Is Qolile Present a male or a female? MR DASTILE A male. MR CACHALIA I just put it to you because in the translation the person was referred to as she, anyhow. Is that all that you want to say? MR DASTILE No, Qolile is a male. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON Yes, I would appreciate that if you could be here at nine. MR CACHALIA Convey the necessity and the urgency for them to here at that time. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cachalia. MR CACHALIA I had the intention of calling one other witness, sir. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS