amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-02-25 BOKSBURG CIVIC CENTRE 4 ZEVENFONTEIN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53228&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99022225_bks_990225bk.htm CHAIRPERSON SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, I do have some questions. MR DASTILE His surname was Dastile, but people referred to him as Justin because maybe they had a problem pronouncing Dastile. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE We had our leaders who were representatives of the community acting as a civic. MR CLAASSEN This was not the ANC, nor was it the IFP, it was a predominantly apolitical organisation purely for the benefit of the Zevenfontein community? MR DASTILE There were members of the ANC, but they went under the name civic, which was not partisan. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And on that committee you say there were the leaders of the community, the local community? MR DASTILE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did that include people such as Mr Magwaza, for instance? He was a leader of the IFP portion, was he on that committee? MR DASTILE No. CHAIRPERSON Was it an elected committee? Did the people in the community vote for the people who sat on that committee, that civic committee? MR DASTILE Yes, it was elected by the community. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dastile, Mr Sithole, was he also part of this civic committee? MR DASTILE No, he was not part of it. CHAIRPERSON This committee, was it a type of a Sanco, was it affiliated to Sanco? MR DASTILE It was not under Sanco, it was a committee to which we referred as a civic because it did not have to be partisan, but then it did not have an umbrella. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair? Mr Dastile, just on that specific point, you said it had not to be partisan. Would you describe this organisation as totally apolitical? MR DASTILE No, they were not partisan. They were just concerned about the welfare of the community. MR CLAASSEN And this would include the welfare of say, IFP elements within the community as well? MR DASTILE Everybody who was resident in that area. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Would you please explain what problem you are talking about. CHAIRPERSON Now, the negotiations that took place between the Zevenfontein community and those Randburg authorities relating to that new piece of land, was, the question asked by Mr Claassen, was that, were those negotiations carried out by this civic that, this non-partisan civic association or organisation? MR DASTILE Yes, it was this committee that negotiated with the TPA. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile were you yourself a member of this committee? MR DASTILE No. MR CLAASSEN And if a decision had, for instance, been taken by this committee, the community would abide by such decision? MR DASTILE They did not take decisions on their own without consulting with the community. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Dastile. Mr Dastile in your evidence yesterday you said that this, it was said that some people had to be moved, that was during December and I think you said you went on holiday, and you returned on the 10th of February. Is that correct? CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE It is just further up, that designated area. This was a continuation of the development. MR CLAASSEN Was this, was this approved by the TPA? MR DASTILE Yes. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, what exactly was your role in this allocation? You said, and I think specifically to a question of the Chairman, you went further and said that, they asked you who the we were that you were speaking about, and you said leaders of the ANC. Could you just explain that please. INTERPRETER May the speaker please repeat the question. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile you said yesterday, "...We were allocating land to people." And you also went on to say the, we was the leaders of the ANC. MR DASTILE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile could you just explain what authority did the leaders of the ANC have to allocate land to specific people? MR DASTILE We already had the powers to do that. MR CLAASSEN Who vested, who vested that power in you? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile so you wanted the previous forum, the civic, disbanded? CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN The ANC that is correct. CHAIRPERSON In Zevenfontein. MR CLAASSEN That is correct. MR LAX MR CLAASSEN I will rest it at that, thank you Mr Lax. CHAIRPERSON Well what do you say to that Mr Dastile? Did the ANC leadership in Zevenfontein take over the functions of the civic, usurp the functions of the civic committee? MR DASTILE Chairperson, when the shacks were demolished and the civic did not react, we took it upon ourselves to try and assist this people and negotiate with the TPA. ADV SIGODI Just to clarify something. The members of the civic committee, were they mostly members of the ANC, or were they mixed with the other political groups, in the civic committee? MR DASTILE They were members of the ANC. ADV SIGODI All of them? MR DASTILE ADV SIGODI Who were the members of the civic committee, can you remember that? MR DASTILE ADV SIGODI And were any of these members of the civic committee also members of the ANC committee, or was, did the ANC committee consist of different people? MR DASTILE That committee had different people. Those were just ordinary members from the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Thanks, Mr Claassen. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Dastile, you said that you now took over, usurped the function of the civic. Did you now serve expressly the interests of ANC members? MR DASTILE No. MR CLAASSEN Could you explain then, you testified yesterday that a lady, if I understood your testimony correctly, which was initially ANC came to you while you were allocating this land, and there a problem arose there, and your brother requested her to go to Mr Sithole and Zwane with the instruction that they give her land. Could you just explain that please? MR LAX MR CLAASSEN Pardon me Mr Lax, if I could just put the question then. Mr Dastile, could you just explain quickly why did your brother send this woman, or why was she not accommodated initially by you? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Not so much that they were members of the ANC. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile I put it to you that at that stage there was already a known animosity between the ANC and the IFP regarding this allocation of land, and the fact that this, that the ANC decided to usurp the function of the civic organisation. MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN Was there no ill feeling whatsoever at that stage? MR DASTILE No, there was no animosity at that point in time. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile why did you then find it necessary to, yourself and your deceased brother, according to your testimony it was decided during that day that there should be a meeting discussing some problems. MR DASTILE It is because this female went to Sithole and said something that was not correct, so that Sithole had to come and enquire himself. That is why the meeting was necessary. MR CLAASSEN Yes Mr Dastile, but why? You say she said something that was not correct. What was supposed to be discussed at this meeting? What was this meeting for? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN And when was this meeting supposed to happen? MR DASTILE We held the meeting on a Thursday, around six. MR CLAASSEN And this is where this particular problem was addressed? MR DASTILE That is correct. That is where we even agreed that we were going to meet on Saturday to finalise this, the conclusion or the resolution of the problem. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE The agenda of the Saturday meeting was that we would have to make a decision as to how we were going to, jointly with Inkatha, address the allocation of land. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, and this meeting was also supposed to address the problem regarding the civic organisation and the representation at that stage within the ANC? MR DASTILE Yes, we could have discussed that as well, but at this point in time this is the only thing that we discussed. MR CLAASSEN But there seemed to be a bit of a problem concerning the representation? MR DASTILE The one problem that we had at the time is the one problem that I had already pointed out, that. The problem was that there were people whose shacks had been demolished and they could not be represented. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE He is the one who knows how far his position went, but we knew him as a person in charge of the IFP in case there was a problem. MR CLAASSEN So negotiations would always include Mr Sithole as far as you were concerned? MR DASTILE Most of the time. MR CLAASSEN And Mr Dastile, up to that stage, was Mr Sithole known as a person that peacefully tried to resolve the problems that had occurred? MR DASTILE Very much so. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Yes, he did mention that. MR CLAASSEN Did you, did you see this first hand? MR DASTILE No, I did not see him when he solved the problem. He discussed it with me and promised that he was going to address it. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE This was common, themselves as members or members of a political party, they would chant their song wherever they came from wherever. MR CLAASSEN Did you pay any heed to what was going on there? MR DASTILE I started noticing this when they started uttering words when they arrived at the sports field. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Yes, exactly. MR CLAASSEN Could you just, what exactly was said? MR DASTILE They were saying, Umkhoza Imbata and Impondo should leave Zevenfontein because that was an IFP area. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE I am quite certain that they directed this towards the ANC because they were discussing or mentioning this known that these people belongs to the ANC. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile could you perhaps indicate why this happened, in view of the fact that there had not been any obvious previous animosity between the two parties. MR DASTILE I think it is also a surprise to me to this day. I still want to know what reason there was for this to happen. I thought I would come across the reason here, at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, upon hearing this, you testified that you went to your brother and indicated that they were going to beat you up. Did you, you did not, I presume the, perceive this as a hollow threat? MR DASTILE I do not quite understand. MR CLAASSEN Did you take these people serious? MR DASTILE Yes, in the manner in which they were talking I took them seriously because it was for the first time I heard them talking that way. MR CLAASSEN You testified you went to your brother and told him what had happened. What was his response to this? MR DASTILE He said, "...These people will never do that, they are used to saying such things, but they will never do that." MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile you also further testified, if I understood you correctly, that you did not go back to your own shack but you hanged around with your brother. MR DASTILE Yes, I hanged around at that time, right up to the end of their meeting. MR CLAASSEN What meeting is that that you refer to now? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN When was the end of this meeting? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN And what did you do then? MR DASTILE That is when I saw an opportunity to go back home to prepare lunch. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile could you indicate why would they go to you? MR DASTILE It is because I was one of their leaders, and they knew that I was available to assist them. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile was your brother involved in this, in the resolving of this incident? MR DASTILE Yes. MR CLAASSEN When, when did you inform him, and what did he do? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN Did you perceive what had happened as a political incident? MR DASTILE No, that is not how we perceived it. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE It is because we were leaders of these people. These people had come to us on experiencing a problem, and it therefore was our responsibility. There was this problem about the IFP, and we had an agreement, an existing agreement, to solve whatever problems that may have cropped up between the IFP and the ANC. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN What was the mood like there? What were these people doing? MR DASTILE It was tense. People were very angry. It was a lot of noise. MR CLAASSEN If you say it was tense and they were very angry, with whom were they angry? MR DASTILE These people who had witnessed the incident, these are the residents of the area. MR LAX No the question was with who were they angry? We know that they had witnessed something, but who were they angry with? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE They were noisy because of what Sithole and Mpongosi did, not the IFP. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, and at that stage did you have any fear that any incident might occur, or any reprisal might take place? MR DASTILE You mean an action or a reaction by these people? MR CLAASSEN That is correct. MR DASTILE Yes. Yes we saw a possibility of such a thing happening. MR CLAASSEN What do you mean when you say, such a thing. CHAIRPERSON The reprisal. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Possibility of a reprisal or a reaction to, these people reacting to the problem. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE I did not count them. CHAIRPERSON Was it five, three, 50, 100? MR DASTILE It was a group that could have been far much more than ten. MR LAX CHAIRPERSON Were there 100, or? MR DASTILE No, there were far much less than 100. They could have been, maybe ten if not more than ten. CHAIRPERSON Ten to 20 people? MR DASTILE No, they could not be 20. It was quite a smaller group. Smaller than 20. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, and you also went on to say, "... people heard and were coming." Is that correct? MR DASTILE Yes, we received information that Mpongosi and others were coming to shoot. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN Mr Chair if I may. CHAIRPERSON If think what, sorry. I think what Mr Claassen is saying to you, is when you were giving your evidence-in-chief, you mentioned that while you were there at the shebeen people came in, they came from around and they gathered gradually, people who had heard about the incident. They came to see what was happening, and that crowd that was in the shebeen, the less than 20 crowd, more and more people with time came. MR DASTILE Yes, yes, that is correct. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Dastile and this group that you just explained grew considerably? MR DASTILE These were residents. I therefore cannot mention names. MR LAX MR DASTILE Yes, the group grew. Yes, the group grew as people were coming to join it. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE No, it was not a group, only leaders, the leaders. There were seven of us. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, just to get to another point now. At that stage was the meeting still arranged for that afternoon? MR DASTILE We had not yet met to discuss the meeting, but everybody knew there had to be a meeting in the evening. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE No, there was no problem before the 4th. CHAIRPERSON This problem took place, according to what you say, on the Saturday morning, the 12th. Mr Mpongosi when he gave evidence said that there was no problem on the 12th at that shebeen, but there was in fact a dispute at the shebeen on Friday a week before, the 4th, on Friday the 4th of February. What do you say to that? MR DASTILE That is not correct. He is wrong. That is not the truth. We experienced this problem on the 12th, it was on a Saturday. CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Before Mpongosi arrived on the 12th? CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE MR LAX No problem whatsoever at that shebeen? MR DASTILE No, there was no problem. The IFP and the ANC were mixing and drinking together at the shebeen. There was no such a problem. MR LAX So no problem had been brought to your attention as an ANC committee member? MR DASTILE No we did not receive any such a problem. MR CLAASSEN "...because of previous trouble with accused number five he refused to sell beer to him. As a result of this the misconception was formed that he was discriminating against IFP members. He testified that accused two, who was a member of the parents committee, formed to keep ...(indistinct) in the camp called at the shebeen later in the day and levelled such accusations." CHAIRPERSON What page is that Mr Claassen? MR CLAASSEN MR LAX MR DASTILE That is correct. MR LAX MR DASTILE Yes, I understand quite well. MR LAX MR DASTILE If that is the case, that means he did not report it before, because I was hearing that for the first time. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN Where were this, you made mention of this group of people from the tavern. Where were they at that stage? MR DASTILE At this very same moment as we were talking to Sithole these people went down towards the ANC office. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE The decision that came up was that we said, Sithole said actually to Dastile, that Dastile should go and discuss this with the ANC and he, Sithole, would go and discuss this with the IFP people, to try and stop or resolve this problem. And after consulting with the respective groups we would come and meet at the grounds, and discuss this. We would all meet at the grounds. MR CLAASSEN That was decided then? MR DASTILE Yes, on that very same spot. MR CLAASSEN Right Mr Dastile you said you went back to the ANC offices. What did you find when you got there? MR DASTILE We went there to the ANC people and we found people waiting outside the office. And we reported to them that we met with Sithole and discussed and agreed that he should go and discuss this with the IFP people, and this will never happen again. And they should relax because we were going to meet Sithole again on leaving the office, to make sure that this is resolved. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile you made mention of the fact that the people should relax. What was the mood at that stage? MR DASTILE Yes, people were still not sure. They were not really relaxed, because it was for the first time that we left Sithole after we had met the people were angered by this incident. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, were they very upset and angry? MR DASTILE I did mention earlier on, people were very noisy at the time. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Yes, there were armed people. MR CLAASSEN With what sort of weaponry were they armed? MR DASTILE Some were armed with sticks, knopkierries, spears and firearms. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE As I have indicated, people who received these news came on their own armed with whatever was available at their disposal. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. And Mr Dastile, you now talk about a stage where you were at the ANC offices. Were mostly the same crowd there still armed with the same weaponry? MR DASTILE Yes, they came still armed with the very same assortment of weapons. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, getting back to your evidence yesterday. You said that they seemed to be upset and they also said when your brother tried to calm them down, they said that these are not empty threats, and I think your specific words were it was at that stage that your brother said to them that Sithole would not let this happen. MR DASTILE Yes, he did say that. We went to report to the people at the office after having met Sithole. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, and you also went on to say that at that stage ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Wait sir, I think you will create a confusion. At the time when we left the office for the grounds, people with whom we were at the offices, did say it is okay even if you are going, we are not remaining behind, we are coming along with you because we want to satisfy ourselves that you are indeed discussing this with these people. MR CLAASSEN MR CACHALIA Chair I think, just excuse me Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia? Sorry, sorry Mr Dastile, Mr Cachalia wants to say something. MR CACHALIA I think Mr Claassen is not correct when he says the ANC people appeared from the side of the dustbin. He was referring to the IFP. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cachalia. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, just to here, and my, if my notes is correct I think you said the people were walking swiftly, and when they were closer we heard a gunshot. MR DASTILE That is correct. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE I could see the people who were shooting. MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. MR LAX MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE No, that was not a mistake. I was not giving you a wrong information. MR CLAASSEN But that is an estimate? MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CLAASSEN MR DASTILE Yes, he is trying to protect himself. I am saying what I saw. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dastile, what sort of firearm did you see in the possession of Mr Sithole? MR DASTILE An AK-47. CHAIRPERSON Was he the only person on the roof, or were there a whole group of them on the roof? MR DASTILE He was the only person that I saw on top of the roof. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, at that stage ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI I just want to establish from the witness, what was the weather like on that day? MR DASTILE It was raining. ADV SIGODI At the time of the shooting was it pouring with rain, or was it just drizzling? MR DASTILE It was raining, not heavily, but it was raining. CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Dastile, how well could you see at that stage of the evening? MR DASTILE Yes, the vision was clear. MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile, I put it that, I put it to you that the vision was not clear, and specifically because of this rain that you are testifying to. MR LAX MR CLAASSEN MR LAX MR CLAASSEN I see your point, obviously they could also be seen. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dastile if I could just ask you one question? Do you know at approximately what time of the day the shooting took place? MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE Yes, from half past five to six. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN "...according to the testimony of a witness Mr Sindisile Dastile, many of them armed themselves with kerries and seemed to be preparing for violence." Would you agree with that? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN MR LAX This was when they moved from the office, that was his testimony yesterday, that they tried to get people to leave their weapons behind. He said so yesterday in his evidence-in-chief. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Lax. ADV SIGODI Sorry Mr Dastile, were any ANC people armed with guns, or firearms? MR DASTILE MR LAX ADV SIGODI Umbaso is an axe. MR LAX MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE No, I did not. I did not mention firearms. MR LAX MR DASTILE No. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Claassen. MR CLAASSEN MR LAX CHAIRPERSON One four nine. MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN That is correct Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Mr Dastile is that indeed, was that the situation at that stage? MR DASTILE Would you please repeat as you were reading. CHAIRPERSON "...of importance is the fact that he," MR DASTILE Yes I agree with that. It is similar to the testimony that I have just rendered. MR CLAASSEN Mr Chair I believe in all fairness this should not be read in isolation, but it goes on to say: "...The other witnesses who testified painted a rather different picture of the movements of the various people immediately before the violence began." And then just 18, 19 and 20 it says: And it goes on to say that Mr Moloetsi does not agree with this. Mr Chair if I could just be given the opportunity to put this to the applicant, to the witness. Mr Dastile, I believe it was interpreted to you. What have you got to say to what you yourself testified in the trial? MR DASTILE I believe that I mentioned even in Court that this was not put as I explained. I was supposed to say we were shot. I think if you were to rewind the cassette and listen to the evidence, it was clear on, should I say, rewinding the cassette and listening to the evidence to what exactly I meant to say. CHAIRPERSON Is that correct? MR DASTILE MR CLAASSEN NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Claassen. Mr Draht, do you have any questions to ask the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DRAHT MR DASTILE Yes. MR DRAHT MR DASTILE No, he was not a leader, he was a member, maybe a follower. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed Mr Draht. Mr Dastile, the four deceaseds, the four people who were killed in this incident, were they all ANC members or supporters? MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON And the seven injured people? MR DASTILE All of them were members of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE I did not know him. MR DRAHT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dastile you and your brother requested people at the ANC offices to stay behind. Is that correct? MR DASTILE Yes, he did mention that. MR DRAHT MR DASTILE Yes, that is correct. MR DRAHT And you also requested them to put down their arms. Is that right? MR DASTILE That is correct. MR DRAHT MR DASTILE I did not see anyone armed. MR DRAHT Mr Dastile, who lived next to the river? Was it predominantly IFP members? MR DASTILE It was all sorts of people, not necessarily the IFP. We did have ANC members residing along the river as well. MR DRAHT Do you know why the IFP youth removed the ANC posters, election posters? MR DASTILE No. MR DRAHT And did this removal of posters made the ANC supporters angry? MR DASTILE Yes. MR DRAHT After you heard the slogans, and you reported it, Mr Mzilele said "...they always say so." What did you mean by this? CHAIRPERSON MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE I understood him quite well that this will not necessarily lead to a fight, because this is what they usually keep saying but nothing happens. MR DRAHT So if we accept that the IFP usually said slogans like this, or uttered slogans like this, can we accept that there previously was tension between the IFP and the ANC? MR DASTILE CHAIRPERSON MR DASTILE I think that because of he tearing of the posters, this became something of concern to me, because, or should I say but I had to agree with my brother when he told me not to worry. I trusted that he was sure of what he was saying. MR LAX MR DASTILE There was no tension before this day. We used to differ, but there was no tension. We used to resolve problems as a committee, except that we started experiencing a problem on that particular day. MR DRAHT So previously when the IFP would uttered slogans like we are going ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR DRAHT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dastile, why would Mr Sithole threaten to shoot any ANC member, if there was no tension between the parties? CHAIRPERSON You mean, why would he shoot them? MR DASTILE Chairperson, why would he threaten to shoot them? CHAIRPERSON Our Mr Sithole or the other Mr Sithole? MR DRAHT Mr Sithole the applicant. According to - Mr Dastile yesterday testified that when they went down to the soccer field Mr Sithole said they, or Mr Dastile said, "...they threatened to shoot any ANC member. Sithole said go talk to the ANC, I will go and speak to the IFP." CHAIRPERSON Mr Sithole. Do you say Mr Dastile said that Mr Sithole threatened to shoot ANC people? MR DRAHT MR CACHALIA MR DRAHT When they met Mr Sithole at the soccer field. He testified that "...they threatened to shoot any ANC member and Sithole said go talk to the ANC, I will speak to the IFP." MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR DRAHT Chairperson I shall rephrase the question. Mr Dastile why would the IFP members threaten to shoot any ANC member if there was no tension? CHAIRPERSON There was this huge tension about the problem at the shebeen. He said the people were very angry and were shouting and making noises. MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON You mean why the I ...(inaudible) MR LAX MR DASTILE Yes I do understand the question. I believe that I cannot speak on behalf of the IFP people as to whether they made that decision. They are the ones who are better placed, who can explain pertaining to that decision. What I know is that there were signs that indicated that there was a tension, like the ...(indistinct) approached us, for example, and it is the IFP itself that can explain why there was this tension. CHAIRPERSON Please continue Mr Draht. MR DRAHT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dastile, you also gave evidence that your brother said, "... we will not allow this." What did you mean by that? MR DASTILE MR DRAHT Mr Dastile, I put it to you that the ANC was actually charging and attacking the IFP members. MR DASTILE ANC was not attacking the IFP. MR DRAHT And I also put it to you that some IFP members tried to cross the river, but it was flooded. MR DASTILE MR DRAHT I also put it to you that the first stones was threwed by the ANC group. MR DASTILE We would not do that by throwing the stones first. We threw stones because they started shooting. We were trying to disturb them. MR DRAHT And that first gunshot also came from the ANC group. MR DASTILE I begin to hear this for the first time. MR DRAHT I also put it to you that the ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI He heard that for the first time here. MR DASTILE That is correct. MR DRAHT I also put it to you that it was the ANC people that shouted slogans at the ...(indistinct) MR DASTILE We were not singing slogans on that day. MR DRAHT MR DASTILE MR DRAHT Mr Mpongosi denies that he ever assaulted any women at the shebeen. MR DASTILE I had word he was saying that. He was trying to protect himself. MR DRAHT Last Mr Dastile I put it to you that these two groups, or the members of the community, knew very well who was members of the ANC and who was members of the IFP. Is that correct? MR DASTILE That is correct. MR DRAHT No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Draht. Do you have any questions Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No questions Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr Cachalia? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CACHALIA "...Sandisile Dastile impressed us as an intelligent and honest witness." Were you in Court at that time? CHAIRPERSON Is this a re-examination or are you just trying to ...? MR CACHALIA ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright. MR CACHALIA Were you there when that was said? MR DASTILE Yes, I was present. MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE We went to speak to Magwaza or Sithole so as to report what has happened by, what has been done by their members. MR CACHALIA Does it mean that you first went to other places? Is that what is indicated there, sir? CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE MR CACHALIA MR DASTILE Yes, there were three shacks which were removed and because in one shack had three families inside. And then when they arrived at the new designated place they were divided into various families and then from one shacks we became five shacks and the TPA denied that problem and then destroyed the other shacks. MR CACHALIA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions Advocate Sigodi? ADV SIGODI No thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? Thank you very much Mr Dastile, that concludes your testimony, you may step down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR CACHALIA Thank you Chairperson, I call my next witness, Sipho Tshizana. CHAIRPERSON What are you full names please? Sipho? MR TSHIZANA Sipho Tshizana. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell Tshizana? MR TSHIZANA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Tshizana, do you have any objection to taking the oath? SIPHO TSHIZANA (sworn, states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Cachalia? EXAMINATION BY MR CACHALIA Thank you Chair. Before I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Are you going to be interpreting, testifying in Zulu or Xhosa. MR TSHIZANA In Xhosa. MR CACHALIA Thank you Chairperson. I just wish to indicate before I put questions to this particular witness, that the witness is being called in order to, as a representative of those victims that have suffered, to afford them an opportunity relate the violations that they suffered, not particularly on the facts. I am aware that they are, the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He wishes to make a statement on behalf of the victims? Yes, thank you. MR CACHALIA Mr Tshizana you remember the 12th of February 1994 when four people were shot dead and at least seven were injured. Is that correct? MR CACHALIA Were you one of the person that were injured? MR TSHIZANA Yes. MR CACHALIA How were you injured, and where were you injured? MR TSHIZANA I was hit on the leg, on the foot. CHAIRPERSON By what Mr Tshizana? You say you were injured on the foot. What caused your injury? MR TSHIZANA A firearm. MR CACHALIA In other words you were shot on your leg, is that correct? MR TSHIZANA Yes. MR CACHALIA Were you at that time working at the time when you were injured? Were you employed? MR TSHIZANA Yes. MR CACHALIA And you had to, as a result of the injury you were not able to continue your work for some time? MR TSHIZANA That is correct. MR CACHALIA How long did you stay away from your employment Mr Tshizana? MR TSHIZANA A month, a month and two weeks. MR CACHALIA Now, as a result of you having stayed away did it have any kind of effect on your record at the, at your employment? MR TSHIZANA That is correct. MR CACHALIA What, well let me just, perhaps if my friend, my learned friends have no objections, it had an ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA It had an adverse effect on your, in your, on your employment. Is that what you intend saying? MR TSHIZANA Yes. MR CACHALIA Now, Mr Tshizana, after this particular incident, and after the arrest, the applicants were released on bail. Is that correct? MR TSHIZANA Yes, they were released on bail. MR CACHALIA And in September of 1994 you made an attempt to create peace amongst what has, became, what then afterwards became warring factions as a result of the death. You tried to make peace. There was a meeting to make peace. Is that correct? MR TSHIZANA That is correct. MR CACHALIA MR TSHIZANA People who were encouraging peace wanted to see peace, but it transpired that when we finished the meeting that we had trying to get opinions of the leaders, the leader of the IFP announced that if their brothers can be pressed down during the Court trial there will be no peace in Zevenfontein. MR CACHALIA What do you mean by pressed down, please, Mr Tshizana? What do you mean when you say the brothers could be pressed down in the Court? MR TSHIZANA I think they wanted the situation where no witnesses would come forward. MR CACHALIA Mr Tshizana, you had a relationship, and I think it is somewhat common cause, before that day of the incident matters that were creating problems in your community were able to be resolved peacefully. After the incident was that process carried on, or were you, was the relationship in the community so affected that it could not carry on? MR TSHIZANA It was clear that we had lost negotiations between ourselves and the IFP with whom we lived together in the area from around 1992 right up to 1994 before the incident. MR CACHALIA What is the relationship between the IFP and the ANC today in Zevenfontein? Perhaps I should ask you are the IFP, are there still IFP members in Zevenfontein? MR TSHIZANA No. MR CACHALIA Where are they now? MR TSHIZANA They are in Diepsloot. MR CACHALIA Diepsloot was an area demarcated to move people from Zevenfontein to Diepsloot. Did members of the ANC move to Diepsloot, or only IFP people moved? MR TSHIZANA Yes there are some ANC members who went to join the IFP in Diepsloot? MR CACHALIA But all the IFP people have moved? MR TSHIZANA Yes. MR CACHALIA MR TSHIZANA There has not been any negotiations or discussion among the groups in Zevenfontein and Diepsloot. MR CACHALIA MR TSHIZANA No, she went to the rural areas. MR CACHALIA For what reason? Because there was nobody to support her here. MR TSHIZANA Yes, for that reason and also the fact that her husband had died. MR CACHALIA MR TSHIZANA MR CACHALIA MR TSHIZANA Yes. MR CACHALIA How do you feel about what happened Mr Tshizana? What happened to you and to your colleagues in the ANC, the injuries, what has it caused you sir? MR TSHIZANA On our side as the injured among the ANC this created quite a lot of suffering, and that we no longer have people that we can discuss things with, especially the IFP, and it made it difficult for us to support our families, because we were not able to work during the time when we were recuperating. And some of our properties in our shacks were taken by the IFP. MR CACHALIA That is the physical aspect of it mister. How, you were traumatised obviously when you were, you get shot, whether in the leg or any other part of the body, it causes some trauma. Have you been, in your mind, may I put it this way, in your mind have you been able to get rid of it and get along with your life? MR TSHIZANA It is very difficult for me to rid my mind of this, because I was shot by people whom I trusted. My hope is that there will ultimately be discussions and we will relate well finally. MR CACHALIA Thank you Mr Tshizana I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you have any questions Mr Claassen? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairman, maybe just a single question. MR TSHIZANA MR CLAASSEN Mr Tshizana just in conclusion, this was a very unhappy time for all the people in Zevenfontein. It was, there was political unrest, there was political uncertainty and there were victims on both sides. MR TSHIZANA MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Claassen. Mr Draht do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DRAHT MR TSHIZANA I would like to say that, yes, it is true that when they say they want amnesty it is necessary that this Truth and Reconciliation Commission should know the truth. MR DRAHT That will be all Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Lockhat do you have any? MS LOCKHAT No questions Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON ADV SIGODI ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Tshizana for letting us know your feelings and for talking on behalf of the other victims, we appreciate that. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia would you provide Ms Lockhat with a list of the victims and the immediate next of kin, you know the dependents. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Because it may be that this will be referred to the Reparations Committee. MR CACHALIA That is all the witnesses that I wish to call. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cachalia. Mr Claassen, are you in a position to argue? MR CLAASSEN IN ARGUMENT Mr Chair I believe I am in a position to argue. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN So I think it is quite clear that there had been a bit of animosity there and there was quite a feeling between the two parties. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. ADV SIGODI Sorry, and I think for me bordering on full disclosure is whether or not there was an attack by the IFP on the ANC or there was an attack by the ANC on the IFP. I think that is the crucial question that borders on full disclosure. If you can explain why none of the ANC people, who none of the IFP people were injured, and so many ANC people were injured. If you can just address us on that aspect. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair, I think from what was just said, it is as far as a political motive is concerned that is, I think that that stands clear that obviously it was politicised. As far as the question of full disclosure is concerned, Mr Chair it is my honest submission that, also looking at the events leading to what occurred on that specific day, the question remains who actually attacked who. I think it was said by Mr Mbatha who said the IFP acted proactively because they knew that they were going to attack and they wanted to defend themselves because, I think it was Mr Mpongosi said, there was women and children and they knew that the ANC were coming from them. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, and just in taking where you left off, that is exactly the structure in this community, I think it was unthinkable that within the Zulu community, the IFP as such, members would not partake in what was obviously going to happen. Mr Chair and I believe that all preceding incidents taken into account, there was, as Mr Sithole said, he was left with no choice. They were under the firm impression that they were under attack, there was going to be bloodshed, and the only thing that they were left to do was, according to him, to defend themselves, which was in the end what they, which is my submission, what they did in the end. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. I think it was upon a question to Mr Mpongosi, why did he buy this arm, I think he testified it was even before he want away in December and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Lax. I think just to start at the end of what you said, I think it was also mentioned by several people that the river were in flood and some of them contemplated the option of fleeing but apparently it was not a viable option. CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR LAX That was Mpongosi. CHAIRPERSON He got it from his uncle. MR LAX Mpongosi got his from his uncle. One of the other bought his weapon from the Shangaan people. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. I think that the word deviousness is a ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, I have to agree one would be naive to say that, if I may start with Mr Magwaza and Sithole, that their initial applications had been thought up or was taken and without them ever being aware of what the other was saying. Mr Chair you know I think what Mr Lax said in conclusion is, obviously the question remains, is if they had initially not taken the Committee into their trust and disclosed what had actually happened, why should they be believed today. Mr Chair, it is true, that those are sworn affidavits so it is supposed to be the truth, it is supposed to be done under oath. Mr Chair and it is difficult to offer an explanation as to why ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That then brings in a third version, as well, under oath. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Mr Chair I can do no more than ask of this Committee to accept the position that they were in, insofar as their explanation for the technical shortcomings may be, there was no explanation offered for the fact that they admitted to lying and then saying that they, that they told the truth today. But it would be my humble submission that what they came and testified before this Commission was indeed the truth of what actually occurred this day. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair for pointing that out, and I mean it was quite clear from the evidence by Mr Ndlovu and also on the question, he was not sure who this person were, whether he had any political affiliation. He went further and said that they were angry and they set upon him and assaulted him, and he died as a result of that. CHAIRPERSON There was a call to retreat, I mean to come back, I think. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON ADV SIGODI He must go through the High Court, and appeal. CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CLAASSEN That is true, Mr Chairman, but Mr Chairman ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI And can you also agree with me that they had absolutely no reason to link him with the other ANC people? They could see that he was coming out of the shebeen. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR CLAASSEN IN ARGUMENT (Cont) But Mr Chair it would be my submission that, all taken into account, with the problems as mentioned by the Committee regarding these initial applications, and the fact that there seems to be a bit of a problem surrounding that, it would be my submission that the evidence given before this Commission should be accepted as truthful. There were obvious inconsistencies, there were, I think on both sides, but I believe that these applicants are bona fide applicants and that the incident as such was a direct consequence of political instability at the time. And just getting to the question of full disclosure, I believe that they were truthful in what they said before this Commission, they were thoroughly tested by Mr Cachalia on their versions, and surely it is to be expected, where an incident of this huge scale occurred, that they will not corroborate each other word for word and sentence for sentence. And Mr Chair if I may just, in conclusion, it is my submission that on their applications, to which they testified, the applicants does qualify, or they do qualify, for amnesty as set down should they be found to have fully disclosed all that happened, and as such being my submission that they did, be granted amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, thank you Mr Claassen. Mr Draht. MR DRAHT IN ARGUMENT Political objective firstly. Mr Dastile during his evidence himself conceded to the following. That a large armed group of ANC members gathered at the ANC offices. Secondly, the incident where IFP people shouted derogative slogans and sang ANC unfriendly songs. The main incident then where two armed large groups of opposing political parties, clashed. The applicants who I represent gave the following evidence before this Committee in regard to the political objective. CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Yes, he did it as being part of the group. MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT Thank you Chairperson. The heading full disclosure then. It is clear that the level of education of the applicants are not very high, that they are not sophisticated people. CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT MR LAX MR DRAHT MR LAX You know we can speculate here until the cows come home. What we have is their evidence on this point, and the fact that the probabilities of that create a problem. Why would lawyers not tell their clients their rights? MR DRAHT MR LAX CHAIRPERSON And then Sithole, for instance, gives quite a full version, although the first one he changed, but he gave a full story about taking his gun and trying to get down to the river and coming back and having to shoot, etc. etc. Same lawyer is involved. MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT Thank you, Chairperson. I hereby request the Amnesty Committee to grant the applicants amnesty in the light that they meet all the requirements of the Act. CHAIRPERSON MR DRAHT Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cachalia? MR CACHALIA Chairperson I thought Ms Lockhat wanted to address you firstly. CHAIRPERSON Alright, Ms Lockhat, do you have any submissions. MS LOCKHAT Just give me one second Chair. MR CACHALIA IN ARGUMENT May I then start ...(indistinct). Chairperson, I want to say that, at the outset, that I would be naive to believe that you have not dealt with this Act very extensively, and that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX Just to quote you the precise words. You have it in front of you? MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA Thank you, I ...(intervention CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Ndlovu and Mbatha. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX They went one step further. They said, we want to make sure nothing happens to you. How would they do that without arms? MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON I think from the evidence before us it would be wrong for us to find that, because first of all he came out of the shebeen, which means he must have been in it. He had a briefcase, and he was a stranger. He was unknown. INTERPRETER MR CACHALIA I think that particular matter just to, to round off that particular matter, Advocate Sigodi had asked how they identified what member he was and so on, it was dealt with in some detail. CHAIRPERSON If there was this overwhelming, if they had an overwhelming desire to flee, they could have run away. MR CACHALIA ADV SIGODI MR CACHALIA MR LAX MR CACHALIA ADV SIGODI The thing is, if you had put it to them, they would have been given an opportunity either to admit or deny that allegation. Now they have not been given that opportunity so we cannot use that material probability, or we are in a difficult position to back that up. CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON Certainly not. MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR LAX MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR CACHALIA The second submission that I am making is that there has not been full disclosure, and notwithstanding the reservations in this matter I am submitting that the Committee is entitled to find what the probabilities of what had happened in that matter irrespective as to whether the applicants were given an opportunity, and finally I am saying that when they made their first application they had misled the Amnesty Committee, there is no reason why you could now find that on their third attempt they are telling the truth, and I am saying that for that particular reason the amnesty applications by all the applicants should be refused as it should have been done originally in my submission when they were made in May of 1997 and earlier. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cachalia. Ms Lockhat, do you have any submissions? MS LOCKHAT IN ARGUMENT The same would go for Elias Mbatha and Mpongosi. The only statement they made was that they were acting in self-defence and not accounting that they both had firearms, and that they actually went out on that specific day and shot, and that is real material, a material omission on their part, to take the Commission into their confidence. And on that basis Chairperson, it is my submission that these amnesty applications should be dismissed and refused amnesty. MR CACHALIA IN FURTHER ARGUMENT CHAIRPERSON Proportionality aspect. MR CACHALIA ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR CACHALIA ADV SIGODI MR CACHALIA Advocate, my attitude to that particular approach is a very simple on and I will think that you will find that the A, the IFP was about half the group of the ANC because there is quite a discrepancy between 400 and 20 people. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON MR CACHALIA CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen any reply? MR CLAASSEN NO REPLY BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Draht? MR DRAHT No reply Chairperson. NO REPLY BY MR DRAHT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. HEARING ADJOURNS