amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-07 PRETORIA 2 CHARL NAUDE RIBEIRO MURDERS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53242&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990407pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Where do we proceed to now? MS LOCKHAT We can proceed with argument now, Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Which other matter is on the roll after the Nietverdiendt matter? MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, the Ribeiro matter is on the roll. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Are we ready to proceed? MS LOCKHAT The only problem that I can foresee is that there are legal representatives that are not here and it is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Legal representatives of? MS LOCKHAT Of implicated persons. That seems to be a problem I can foresee, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They are aware of the hearing? MS LOCKHAT Yes, they are aware of the hearing, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And they made no excuse or explanation as to why they are not here? MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, they were relying on the Commission to inform them as to when they are going to, when they are needed for the hearing, but they are aware that we commenced yesterday and they were here this morning as well and then they'd left, so they're not here now, Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Aren't they Pretoria advocates? MS LOCKHAT That is correct. ADV DE JAGER They're about two blocks away. MS LOCKHAT I can contact them and inform them that they have to be here in the next five minutes. ADV DE JAGER It seems as though attorneys or representatives are already doing that because I see cellphones there being spoken on. JUDGE KHAMPEPE On what basis could they have relied on the Commission to inform them, when I think that was arranged in chambers, that we would try and approximate when the first incident is likely to come to an end and people would then make themselves available for the next incident? MS LOCKHAT That is correct, Chairperson, and I did inform them that I can't give them specifically a time as to today, when we're going to finish today regarding Nietverdiendt. And that seems to be the problem. CHAIRPERSON Well I think that we should make a beginning in the next matter and whilst we are making a beginning in the next matter, perhaps telephonic communications should be established with counsel representing implicated people and told that this matter has now commenced. MS LOCKHAT That's in order, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Will you call the parties concerned? MR WESSELS ... Wessels, I appear for Robey, Naude and Verster as well as Vlietstra. MR GROBLER Mr Chairman, I unfortunately missed your opening words, but if we're dealing with the application in respect of the Ribeiro's, I'm appearing on behalf of General Joubert. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Visser - I'm sorry. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON General Joubert is not an applicant in this matter? MR GROBLER In the Ribeiro matter yes, he is Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR WESSELS For Robey, Verster, Naude and Vlietstra. MR MEINTJIES Mr Chairman, I'm Roelf Meintjies from the firm, Meintjies Waugh Inc., I appear on behalf of Mr JJH van Jaarsveld in this matter. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Visser on record. I appear for two people who might be implicated, General PJ Coetzee, a previous Commissioner of Police and Brigadier Willem Schoon. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR VISSER S-C-H-O-O-N. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman lastly, I appear on behalf of Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter insofar as it may be necessary to represent them at this hearing. ADV DE JAGER ... not represented here? MR YOUNG Mr Chairman, my names is Young, Ruth and Wessels, Pretoria, on behalf of General Geldenhuys. Counsel will be here presently, Advocate Etienne Coetzee of the Pretoria Bar. May it please you. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR YOUNG Etienne Coetzee yes, Mr Chairman. General Geldenhuys, I beg your pardon. He's not an applicant, but he may be implicated. CHAIRPERSON Are the applicants represented? I trust they are. MR GROBLER Mr Chairman, I believe Advocate Tokkie van Zyl is not present. He's instructing attorney is Adolf Malan. I'm not sure who their clients are, but I have left a message on their cellphone just now. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Well, can we make a beginning. Will Mr Robey be the first witness? MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, we call on Mr Naude. MR WESSELS Mr Chairman, the application of Mr Naude appears on page 18, bundle 4. If it's in order with you, Mr Chairman, I will not deal with the profile of the applicant, but will immediately start with the facts of the matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. ADV DE JAGER Mr Naude, you have to take the oath again. CHARL NAUDE: (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS Mr Naude, is it correct that you were also involved with the Ribeiro matter? MR NAUDE That is correct, Chairperson. MR WESSELS When were you aware for the first time of the activities of Doctor and Mrs Ribeiro? MR NAUDE At the meeting where General told myself and Colonel Verster, that was the first time that I heard these names. MR WESSELS And what were you informed about the Ribeiro's? MR NAUDE It was a summary and the only thing that I knew at that stage was that they were responsible for the transport of person to Swaziland for instant training and that they were trained themselves and that they handled training in their house at a later stage, and they handled money matters of the ANC. MR WESSELS What did you ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Excuse me. This meeting, was it just the three of you? MR NAUDE It was just the three of us. ADV DE JAGER Nobody of the police was present? MR NAUDE This was the meeting where the General gave us instructions to support the police. CHAIRPERSON So let's just get his straight. The information you got that they were responsible for sending people to Swaziland for training and their house was used as well for training, is that it? Is that what you said? MR NAUDE That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then something about financial assistance they gave, is that right? MR NAUDE It appeared as if the Ribeiro family had some of the finances of the ANC with them and as soon as ANC activists needed money, then they would provide them with that. CHAIRPERSON Now you got that information from General Joubert? MR NAUDE That's right, I got that from General Joubert, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Carry on. MR WESSELS What did you do after that with regard to the Ribeiro's? MR NAUDE For a while this project was abandoned. We discussed other operations during our meetings with Brigadier Cronje and his staff, of which not a single one materialised into a specific operation that was executed. Later on I had a meeting. Mr Robey and myself were at a meeting in Northern Transvaal with the Security Branch at their offices, where I requested a file of the Ribeiro family. If I recall correctly, the file was not handed to me immediately, a few days after that they handed the file to me. I gave the file to Mr Robey to study, with specific reference to residence of Doctor Ribeiro and his wife. MR WESSELS And why did you do this? MR NAUDE This was done in order to plan an operation against them. MR WESSELS Did you study the file yourself? MR NAUDE I read through the file but I did not make an in-depth study of this file, I left it to Mr Robey. I think at that stage we, in the many meetings and with the names being mentioned, we already had much knowledge of the Ribeiro family. MR WESSELS Did you discuss the Ribeiro family with members of the Security Branch? MR NAUDE Chairperson, I did discuss it with Brigadier Cronje as well as Captain Hechter. MR WESSELS And what was the conclusion that was drawn after this discussion, was a decision taken to take action against them? MR NAUDE A decision was taken that we would act against them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, who took that decision and when? MR NAUDE Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically who said yes, let's do it, it was probably a collective decision that was taken at one of these meetings. MR WESSELS Yourself and who else? MR NAUDE As far as I recall it was Brigadier Cronje and Captain Jacques Hechter. MR WESSELS Yes, and what happened after that? MR NAUDE We eventually knew enough of the Ribeiro family to plan an operation and amongst others Robey and myself decided that we were to use people who have never been in Mamelodi and will probably never return to Mamelodi. I then requested from headquarters that I would want to Portuguese Special Forces operatives from the operational area. This request was conceded to and I told Mr Robey that the person would arrive with a normal scheduled flight from the operational area and I would meet them at headquarters. MR WESSELS Before we get to that point, did you discuss this plan with General Joubert? MR NAUDE That is correct, I did discuss it with General Joubert. MR WESSELS Did you get his approval for this action? MR NAUDE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON When you say that you requested headquarters to send you two specially trained Portuguese, who are you talking about, who did you deal with? MR NAUDE The people whom I referred to are Portuguese soldiers in Special Forces. There was a group of Portuguese soldiers. They were the remain of 32 Battalion whom we recruited and they were in the operational area. ADV DE JAGER I think the question was ... CHAIRPERSON The question was, when you said that you requested headquarters, who in fact did you approach at headquarters? MR NAUDE Chairperson, I cannot clearly recall if I asked the General or whether I asked Colonel Verster, but it would probably be one of those two members. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I want to suppose this was not the first request you had made to headquarters, was there no standard procedure for such requests? MR NAUDE Sorry, I couldn't follow that question. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Didn't you have a procedure in which you would speak to a particular person at headquarters when you made such a request? MR NAUDE Sorry, is the question whether there was a procedure? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. MR NAUDE Yes, there was a procedure, the commanders discussed it with each others. I either spoke to the General or I spoke to one of his staff officers and that staff officer had to give me what I wanted if it met with the General's approval. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. And in this case you can't remember who you spoke to? MR NAUDE I could have spoken to any of them, but I cannot recall with one of the two I had discussions. CHAIRPERSON Now which part of the world are you now dealing with, Angola or Mozambique? MR NAUDE We speak about the operational area, Ovamboland in the north of Namibia. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You may proceed, Mr Wessels. MR WESSELS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Continue, Mr Naude, what had happened then? MR NAUDE On a given day I then told Mr Robey that the people had arrived at Special Forces headquarters and that he had to collect them and house them in a hotel. He then left. He found the people and he reported back to me that he did indeed book them into an hotel and he told the Portuguese how to get to the place and return to the hotel. MR WESSELS Mr Naude, was it the plan that Doctor and Mrs Ribeiro would be shot? MR NAUDE That was the plan, that they would be shot, yes. MR WESSELS Yes, continue please. MR NAUDE When Mr Robey reported to me that he was certain that these two people knew the route into and out of the city properly and would be certain that they would find it again, I then said that we must continue with the operation. CHAIRPERSON Where were they to go to? When you talk about the route, the route to where? MR NAUDE There was a point if one travels with the Silverton Road out, that's Pretoria Road, there was a crossing and that was the point where they had to find their own way. They were to be met there because these Portuguese did not know Pretoria or the CBD. We had to show them the shortest route and they had to drive this route by themselves. MR WESSELS Where would this operation have been executed? MR NAUDE It would have been executed in Mamelodi. MR WESSELS At the surgery of Doctor Ribeiro? MR NAUDE That's positive, yes Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So was it Robey who showed them the route? MR NAUDE Robey took them to a final rendezvous and they took the map and from there it was only about four blocks away, so to get the route from there was very easy. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but Robey took them and showed them the route to Mamelodi. MR NAUDE That's right, he showed them the route. MR WESSELS So what happened on this specific day when the operation was launched? MR NAUDE I can recall that at that stage the preparation of the vehicles was done by Robey, namely false number plates so that the car could not be traced. The engine and chassis numbers had been removed and this vehicle was prepared with false number plates and it was taken to the operatives, the black Portuguese operatives ...(end of side A of tape) MR NAUDE ... from Robey. He followed them to the point where the rendezvous point was and from there they had to continue on their own and come back to the rendezvous. MR WESSELS Where were you the day of this incident? MR NAUDE We drove and we stopped at the Palms Hotel, which was in Pretoria Road just outside, or it was the last building outside Silverton. We waited there. We co-ordinated that everybody was together and everybody knew what was going on and that everybody was at the right place at the right time. From there Robey and Koen Vlietstra drove to the rendezvous point to wait for the people if they should return, so as to collect them from there. MR WESSELS Who was with you? MR NAUDE Captain Hechter, or I drove with Captain Hechter in his police vehicle. ADV DE JAGER Excuse me. You now used a term "Robey and Vlietstra drove the R4(?)" MR NAUDE To the rendezvous point, to the meeting point. ADV DE JAGER No, I follow now. I think the people who don't know the terms will not follow what the term is. MR NAUDE Please excuse me, Chairperson. MR WESSELS Where did you and Hechter go to? MR NAUDE We drove to an open field. As one enters Mamelodi on the south eastern side of Mamelodi there was an open field and we waited there. MR WESSELS Why did you go there? MR NAUDE We waited there in case there was a problem where South African Police would stop the vehicle and then Hechter could step in and let our operatives go. MR WESSELS Very well. The operation was executed and you waited there, what would happen after that? MR NAUDE To pistols were used in the operation and although they had silences, Captain Hechter told me that he was certain that he heard two shots. From there we drove past the Ribeiro's house. He stopped, he went inside, he came back and from there we drove back to the Palms Inn Hotel and I got to my vehicle and we drove from there, each to our separate units. When he came out of the house he said that both the Ribeiro's had been shot dead. CHAIRPERSON Who was it that said so? MR NAUDE Excuse me, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Who was it that went into the house? MR NAUDE Captain Hechter went into the house. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR WESSELS Continue. MR NAUDE Robey had instructions to book the operatives back into the hotel, make sure that he was not being followed. To book the operatives back into the hotel and to come out to our headquarters. He did indeed do so. ADV DE JAGER Were they also in the Palms Inn Hotel? MR NAUDE No, they were in entirely another hotel in the city. I'm not sure what the hotel's name was. MR WESSELS What happened to these operatives? MR NAUDE I gave instructions to Robey to leave them in the foyer at Special Forces headquarters with their equipment and their clothes. They had to book out of the hotel and they had to be left there. He did indeed do so. I don't know what happened to them after that. I accept that they took the following scheduled flight out to Ovamboland to the operational area in Ovamboland in the north of Namibia. MR WESSELS Did you report to General Joubert? MR NAUDE Yes, I reported to General Joubert. And the vehicle that was used was destroyed in its entirely and was discarded of on different rubbish dumps. CHAIRPERSON This might be an unnecessary question, but do you know what the names are of the people that did the killing? MR NAUDE Chairperson, we tried to find out, but we could not find the names of the two operatives. CHAIRPERSON Where could you not find them? MR NAUDE Excuse me, Chairperson, I could not hear that. CHAIRPERSON When you say you couldn't find their names, where did you look? MR NAUDE I contacted everybody who was involved and I tried to find what their names were, but - the thing is Mr Chairperson, the people were here for two days, two or three days and we had very little to do with them. And after all these years I cannot recall what the operatives names were. JUDGE KHAMPEPE After you had requested head office to provide you with these two people, were you not informed who would be coming to assist you? Were you just given faceless persons? MR NAUDE I'm very sorry, I couldn't hear that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE When you made the request to your head office to provide you with the two operatives from Namibia, didn't they tell you who would be given to you to render the assistance that you wanted from headquarters? MR NAUDE Chairperson, at troop level it was not important what the people's names were, we did not focus on the names. They told me that the two operatives were here. I wonder if the staff officer knew what their names were. Probably the persons who put them on the aeroplane would have booked them in on their names, but I don't think anybody else would have known what these people's names were. CHAIRPERSON So Robey must know their names because he booked them into an hotel. MR NAUDE Chairperson, he would probably be able to tell you, yes. CHAIRPERSON You never found out from him? MR NAUDE No, I asked him but he cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR WESSELS I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS CHAIRPERSON So apart from what you were told, you knew nothing about the activities of Doctor and Mrs Ribeiro, is that correct? MR NAUDE Except for what I knew, or what was told to me by the Security Branch, I did not know anything of these two persons. CHAIRPERSON Are far as you are concerned, whose decision was it that they should be killed? MR NAUDE Chairperson, I think the decision came a long way and I think in the meeting already, where the General spoke to the commanding officer and had a meeting with the Security Branch, already there these two people were pointed out as potential targets. At the meeting that myself, General Joubert and Mr Verster had, already they were pointed out as potential targets. And that is the reason why I decided that we continue with the operation. But the decision was taken at a meeting where the Security Police were present. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I want to know the names of the people who took that decision. MR NAUDE Chairperson, I cannot say. I can tell you under oath that it could have been me, it could have been anybody, but I accept responsibility. CHAIRPERSON No, it's not a question of you accepting responsibility. That's very noble of you to accept responsibility. We would like to know who the individuals are who in fact took that decision. MR NAUDE Chairperson, while we had the meeting it probably came to the fore that we have to continue with the operation, but I cannot specifically remember who said those words: "Let's continue with the operation." I cannot recall. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Haven't you in your evidence-in-chief stated that you had a meeting, a discussion of some kind with Brigadier Cronje, after which a decision was taken to act against the Ribeiro's? Wasn't that your evidence-in-chief? MR NAUDE Sorry, could you just repeat that again? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Wasn't your evidence-in-chief that you had a meeting with Brigadier Cronje, you had a discussion with Brigadier Cronje after which a decision was taken to act against the Ribeiro's? I think I'm quoting you verbatim. MR NAUDE That's 100%, I agree with that, but what I can't remember is that day when we were sitting discussing that, who was the individual, me or him or Hechter, that actually said a decision was taken ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, the thrust of the your evidence was that it was a collective decision amongst the three of you. MR NAUDE Yes, I ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE And this is the question that is being put to you by the Chair. He is trying to clear in his mind whether you still stand by that evidence, that the decision to execute this operation was taken jointly by you, Brigadier Cronje and Mr Hechter. MR NAUDE I think that's the closest to the truth, yes. I will go along with that. CHAIRPERSON Is it not strange that you who knew nothing about these people should take part in the decision that they should be killed? MR NAUDE The reason why I did not have a problem with this was because my commander told me that these people had to be a target and Brigadier Cronje, he was a Brigadier of whom I accepted that what he told me would be the absolute truth. CHAIRPERSON So your commander was who? MR NAUDE Sorry, could you repeat that please? CHAIRPERSON Who was your commander at the time? MR NAUDE It was General Joubert. JUDGE KHAMPEPE May I clear something with you, Mr Naude. This is how I understand your evidence. You were advised by your commander, General Joubert, that he Ribeiro's had been identified as a target. You subsequently had a meeting with Brigadier Cronje at which again it was decided that now action must be taken against the Ribeiro's. What is it that needed to be done by Robey in file that you gave him to study? MR NAUDE We needed information, detailed information of exactly where the Ribeiro's stayed, and that is about all that we needed in the file. That was virtually all that the file consisted of. It consisted of an air photograph of Mamelodi and a street map indicating the houses of the two people. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I would have been under the impression that there was more in the file because in your evidence-in-chief you say that you did not read the file in-depth, you left that to Mr Robey to do because you didn't have time. What there to be studied in-depth if all that you required was the street address and probably the map which you could have obtained, not necessarily from the file. MR NAUDE I must agree that I went through the file and to this day I can't remember what exactly what was on the file. What I know that was of interest at that stage was the fact that we wanted the exact position of the house. The rest of the stuff I can't remember whether I heard it in the conference or read it in the file, but the fact remains they gave us a folder. It wasn't the docket, it was just a folder with documents in it and I can't exactly remember, Mr Chairman, what exactly was in the file. I can just remember one thing and that was that there was an air photograph and there was a street map of Mamelodi in it. ADV DE JAGER Mr Naude, if one wants to find out where the Ribeiro's lived, one could find out and tell Hechter; let's drive and show me where he lives. MR NAUDE We did not want to show our white faces in the area and that is why our people did not show them where the place was. I gave Robey the instruction "take them to a place close to where they live and from there they had to go themselves and they have to find the place themselves because it was not difficult to find the place. I had no problem with the Portuguese who have never been in Pretoria, that they would get lost in that area. ADV DE JAGER But Hechter drove up and down in Mamelodi, he very often drove up and down in Mamelodi. MR NAUDE Hechter did but not I. I have never been there and I did not want to show my face there. He had a good reason for being there, I had no reason for driving around there. If anybody saw me there and asked who I was, it would have been a problem. ADV DE JAGER You see my problem is that you say you wanted to find the exact address because at that stage you had the Portuguese in mind and so that you know where to take them. MR NAUDE We had the Portuguese in mind and specifically we asked for this file with the air photograph and the map so that we could show the Portuguese where precisely the had to go. ADV DE JAGER But Hechter could have driven out with the Portuguese and showed them where they lived. MR NAUDE I would agree with you, that would have been an option, but we decided that these guys have to find their own way, they were not to be seen with Security Police, nothing like that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Are you aware that Captain Hechter had been to the Ribeiro's? Had he told you that? MR NAUDE That he's been to the ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE That he'd been to the Ribeiro's, to the house of the Ribeiro's. MR NAUDE After the incident? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Before. MR NAUDE No, he didn't tell me that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did you ask him whether he was aware of where the house was of the Ribeiro's? I mean they had been the ones who had been doing the groundwork. MR NAUDE Did I ask him if he ...? JUDGE KHAMPEPE If he knew where the Ribeiro's were staying? MR NAUDE Yes, but he gave us a street address, he gave us photographs of the house and he gave us an air photograph of the area and a street map. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yet you still asked for the file to give to Robey in order to gain that information. MR NAUDE But that was the file that they gave us. It was a photograph of the, the air photograph of Mamelodi and the street map of Mamelodi with the addresses in it. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But if Mr Hechter had already given you the street address, what then was the purpose of studying the file? MR NAUDE Because there were air photographs on the - I was worried that the Portuguese speaking people from Northern Namibia wouldn't be able to get the street file, the street address. That is why I gave them a photo, I wanted to give them photograph where they could look at and see that house looks like this one, this house looks like this one, this is the right house. Because we couldn't afford to make a mistake. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You had operatives like Mr Mamasela, didn't you - who were black ...(intervention) MR NAUDE Sorry? JUDGE KHAMPEPE You had people within the Security Force, who were black and who could have assisted with the pointing out. MR NAUDE Sorry, could you just say that again? JUDGE KHAMPEPE You had black operatives, black operatives within the Security Force, who could have assisted you and your operatives in locating the house of the Ribeiro's. MR NAUDE Okay. Due to the fact that I had a limitation from the General, that it must be absolute secrecy, we had to keep that to as narrow amount of people that we could. And we assumed that the people from Northern Namibia would never come here again and would never be able to talk to somebody here and would never refer to this operation again. If we had taken people that stayed here and something comes into the papers, they might decide to talk about it. That's why we didn't use a South African person to assist us in the operation. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Wessels, were you through with his evidence-in-chief? MR WESSELS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did that file contain not one scrap of paper to record the kind of activities that the Ribeiro's were engaged in? MR NAUDE Chairperson, I cannot answer that question. I think Mr Robey, who had the file would be able to answer that question much better. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But you have in your evidence, Mr Naude, also referred to the file. You briefly went through the file, wouldn't you be able to know whether there was something far much more than the aerial map and the address in the file? MR NAUDE I wen through the file with the purposes to see that the material that I wanted for the operation was there, I didn't go through it to try and determine whether Mr Ribeiro was innocent or not. That decision was made, that he is a target. So I didn't want to study the file to try and prove that, I wanted to know whether the information that I need to conduct my operation was there and I paged through it and I found the information that I needed and I gave the file to Robey and I said, "carry on with the operation". JUDGE KHAMPEPE To your knowledge, how thick was that file? MR NAUDE Is it possible to ask the question for - no, no, no, it was definitely not the docket that was opened on Mr Ribeiro and his wife. It wasn't a thick file like this, it was a folder, a carton folder with papers inside. So it wasn't the big docket like this, it was just - I think, my personal feeling is that they took some stuff from the docket and gave that to me, but they didn't give me the whole docket. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON To your knowledge, who of your colleague would have firsthand information, firsthand information of the activities of Doctor Ribeiro? MR NAUDE It was only the Security Police that had firsthand. None of us had firsthand information about the Ribeiro family. CHAIRPERSON Who in the Security Police? MR NAUDE To my knowledge it was Colonel, Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, cross-examination of this witness? MR VISSER Visser on record, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER One question just from a sake of interest. This vehicle which was used and which was totally destroyed and disposed of on various rubbish dumps, Mr Naude, was this the Landrover of which was written in the newspapers and which was discussed? MR NAUDE No, it was another vehicle. It think it was an Opel vehicle, it was reddish in colour. I think it was an Opel. MR VISSER And where did the Landrover fit into the picture, or was there ever a Landrover in question? MR NAUDE The Landrover was the vehicle which Mr Robey had waited in, in the rendezvous point in Fleet Street. MR VISSER Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR GROBLER May I proceed, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GROBLER Mr Naude, if I understand your evidence correctly, and I think that Judge Khampepe summarised it correctly, you were deployed to the Northern Transvaal Commandment in terms of the broader Joubert plan, of which we heard the evidence yesterday, did you already know that one or both of the Ribeiro's had been identified as targets? MR NAUDE Yes, Chairperson, both had already been identified as targets. MR GROBLER I would like to present something to you, an extract from Brigadier Cronje's evidence. I don't think it will be necessary for you to consult the specific bundle itself because I'm going to put it to you in broader terms. My colleague which has appeared on behalf of Brigadier Cronje will be able to substantiate this. Brigadier Cronje makes the statement that "There was no mention of Mrs Ribeiro" His evidence was consistently, if I've summarised it correctly, that with regard to him Mrs Ribeiro was not a target but that Doctor Ribeiro was indeed a target. Now I'd like to know whether or not you ever gained that impression from your discussions, that Mrs Ribeiro was not a target? MR NAUDE Chairperson, never. From the very beginning both Doctor Ribeiro and his wife were presented to me as targets, both of them. MR GROBLER Then I would also like to make it very clear that you not only discussed them with General Joubert, but also with Cronje and Hechter. MR NAUDE That is correct. MR GROBLER And I would like to ask you the following. If you say that both of them were presented as targets, are you speaking with regard to your discussion with General Joubert or with regard to discussions with Hechter and Cronje? MR NAUDE I'm speaking of discussions with the General and with Cronje. MR GROBLER I will return to this somewhat later, but I would like to put something to you. MR NAUDE Chairperson, at this point I would like to say that it is incredibly difficult to remember at this point exactly who said what to you, whether it was Hechter or Cronje who said something. It's very difficult and these bits of information make it even more difficult to say who said what. I accept that it came from that office because that would be the only place from which we gained information and that was the only place where I heard about Ribeiro, so it had to have come from there. ADV DE JAGER I don't think that that's the intention with the question. I don't think that it's intended that you are supposed to say whether or not it's Hechter or Cronje who said these things, but Cronje gave evidence and said that what is about to be put to you is what Hechter himself said. So listen to what Hechter himself said and then tell us whether or not you agree with it and whether it's the truth or not. MR GROBLER It is simply about your recollection and I don't expect of you to remember verbatim who said what. If you will just give me a chance to consult the bundle please. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Do you want pages, Mr Grobler, maybe I can assist you. MR GROBLER I beg your pardon? JUDGE KHAMPEPE I said if you wanted pages of what you wanted to put to him of what was said by Brigadier Cronje, I can assist you with the relevant pages. MR GROBLER Thank you, Judge, I made extracts and I was looking for the extracts. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR GROBLER On page 457 to page 458 is a paragraph which moves over and Captain Hechter said in his evidence "According to our sources at the time, Mrs Ribeiro was involved along with her husband in the recruitment of youths for sending them out for training. It was also known that they gave money to these people. Doctor Ribeiro and his wife, who obviously never distanced herself from his conduct and was always involved with him in showing the videos for instance, our information that they were both involved in the showing of videos." The only question that I would like to put to you - I have put the contrasts to you in terms of what Brigadier Cronje said and Captain Hechter has said. If I were to understand you correctly, that which Captain has said would be more in line with your recollection that it was both of them? MR NAUDE Yes, that's correct. MR GROBLER Then I would like to return to Brigadier Cronje's evidence in bundle 2(b), and he puts this statement on page 499 at the beginning of his application. My learned friend, Mr du Plessis referred him to his own application and asked him the question "Brigadier would you present to the Committee your involvement in the matter of Doctor Fabian Ribeiro and his wife." And then he says: "Chair, I was contacted by Commandant Charl Naude of Special Forces, who requested me to provide him with a memorandum with regard to Doctor Ribeiro and his activities." Let me just finish ready and then I will ask for you comment. "I asked Charl Naude for what purposes he needed the memorandum and he answered me that Special Forces had targeted Ribeiro, or had identified him as a possible target." There are two statements in that, firstly that you approached him and that you explained to him that you needed the file or that you needed a memorandum regarding Doctor Ribeiro and his activities, what is your comment regarding that? MR NAUDE If I wanted to be certain of the correctness of the target that we were going to be attacking, I would have to consult the General about that, and I needed to get my facts in order regarding exactly what the situation was. Here we are jumping from a time period just after the order was given by the General back to that specific memorandum which was requested practically at the first meeting which I had with Cronje. So we're jumping around somewhat and none of these are being put in chronological order. MR GROBLER Well then you will have to be of assistance to us. I wasn't aware of this and it didn't emanate from the record, in terms of the chronological occurrence of these things. But if I understand you correctly, it is correct that you did request the memorandum from him at a certain point in time? MR NAUDE Yes, that's correct. MR GROBLER And that memorandum was required because for one or other reason you had to convince Joubert of something. MR NAUDE I wanted to be certain that General Joubert could be confirmed. If we had information it had to be confirmed through two channels, and that is why I wanted to include the memorandum so that when I had my discussion with the General, I would have my facts together. He would definitely have asked me; "In your eyes, is it correct that these people be shot?", and then I would have to have my facts ready. That memorandum was probably requested before the Nietverdiendt 10 operation took place. MR GROBLER Because the evidence led according to my interpretation to the following idea, and this is contained in the next sentence "I asked Charl Naude why he needed the memorandum and he told me that Special Forces had targeted the Ribeiro's." You see, he was linking those two to each other, the request for the memorandum and he maintained that Special Forces had targeted the Ribeiro's. MR NAUDE Chairperson, that was precisely correct because my General told me that the Ribeiro's had already been targeted. But that's not to say the we didn't make a joint decision later that it should be done. The General did tell me that the Ribeiro's had been targeted and he also informed me that I was to look at the Ribeiro's, and I conveyed this exactly to Cronje. ADV DE JAGER Mr Naude, you gave evidence about the fact that it was not the task of Special Forces to target people, the Security Police who knew the people were responsible for targeting them and they would have then informed you; these people have been targeted, do the job. Brigadier Cronje has stated this. Let us not be mistaken here. He said that the police had not targeted those people, that Special Forces had targeted them. MR GROBLER With respect, Chairperson, I don't think he goes as far as to say that the police did not target them., that is not part of this evidence. Perhaps you have knowledge of something which I don't have any knowledge of. ADV DE JAGER Well this has been found in his evidence. His legal representative is here, he can correct me if he wishes to. He said that they had information but that these people had been targeted by Special Forces. MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, perhaps we should place this all into context in terms of the evidence of Hechter that there had been two prior operations undertaken by the police against the Ribeiro's. So although this had not been testified exactly by Brigadier Cronje that the police had decided about the Ribeiro's, it was clear that the Ribeiro's were indeed a target because two prior operations had been aimed at the Ribeiro's. I wanted to interrupt a few minutes ago regarding my learned friend's questions because it is incredibly confusing to take pieces of evidence and ask questions about that while it is not being viewed in context. I don't know if he is aware of the evidence of Colonel Loots with regard to the Ribeiro matter which was given, during which Loots specifically explained by way of example how information Cronje would have had from the file, what he knew about the file. I would just like to emphasise that point. To remove certain aspects and to ask questions about that is very confusing and it is my duty to interrupt and set these facts straight. I think one can accept that the Ribeiro's were definitely a target at an earlier phase, and this is supported by Hechter's evidence. MR NAUDE I would just like to point out that Joubert gave evidence yesterday that upon the very first meeting, when he was meeting with Cronje and the commander of the commandment, they had already been targeted. That was not Special Forces, that was a meeting of three big-shots. And from that meeting the General told me these people up here think that is a target. But that's not to say that it was Special Forces. Mr Cronje could have thought that it was Special Forces because I said so, but in actual fact it emanated from his meeting and it was simply the General that was giving that information to me again. ADV DE JAGER Let's just have some clarity here. Did you ever investigate the Ribeiro's or name them as a target, based upon any knowledge which you had? MR NAUDE I knew absolutely nothing about the Ribeiro's until the moment that the General told me: "Work with these people, this is your task, these are your responsibilities, these are the three things which had been identified at a meeting which had absolutely nothing to do with you." That was the very first time that I heard of Ribeiro. MR GROBLER Thank you, Chairperson. I also thank my learned friend here, who has put the context completely right. It is so that Captain Hechter gave evidence and perhaps I shouldn't confuse you any further with page references, I will give you the extent of that evidence. He testified that before this operation was executed by you, and by that I mean those people that worked alongside and under you, there had been two other attempts to eliminate the Ribeiro's. Were you ever aware of that? MR NAUDE No. MR GROBLER He didn't take you into his confidence and tell you about that? MR NAUDE No, I didn't know anything about it. MR GROBLER My apologies, Chairperson, for a moment I lost my notes. The other question, Mr Naude which - and perhaps I should just put it pertinently to you regarding General Joubert's version, and that is that if you had come to him and said we were going ahead with the action against he Ribeiro's, he would have asked you: "Have the police approved this?" In other words, is this enjoying their approval? Would you have gone along with that? MR NAUDE Yes. MR GROBLER If I might then put the following question. I think there might be an element of confusion regarding how you managed to get the two operatives from Namibia in the north over here. Would you first have sought the approval from General Joubert to continue with the elimination operation before you discussed the operatives? MR NAUDE Yes, that's correct. MR GROBLER So then you have achieved the approval and you would have to put the administration in place in order to get those operatives here? MR NAUDE Yes. MR GROBLER Would you have required to go back to General Joubert for any of those administrative details? MR NAUDE As soon as the framework of an operation had been determined and as soon as the guidelines had been established for an operation, then the General I think trusted us to operate within those parameters judging by the amount of time he had worked with us. If I had gone back to the General it would have been if an operation had changed in essence to such an degree that it had moved beyond the parameters of the original plan, then I would have requested his approval for amendments to the plan. MR GROBLER You see because he will be questioned later on regarding his recollection of his specific involvement in that and I am simply trying to determine whether or not with the rest of this operation you would have been able to carry out all the operational planning and the administrational planning without the General being aware of what you were doing, such as the operatives for example. MR NAUDE It is impossible for the General to become involved in the detailed planning and administration of a plan because that is the work that we are supposed to do. And if we had any problems which we could not solve we would go to the staff officer or the General himself, should he be available. If it was sensitive we would go to him, if it was not that sensitive we would go to the staff officer. And we would request for certain personnel or vehicles and we didn't always go back to the General with every aspect. MR GROBLER Can you recall today whether or not the physical obtaining of the two operatives was delegated to someone else or whether you carried this out yourself? MR NAUDE I cannot remember. I didn't do it myself, it was carried out through headquarters because it was an autonomous unit and the operational area and its unit there was an autonomous unit over which I had no jurisdiction and we required the approval of headquarters in order to give effect to such a transfer. I can't recall whether or not I asked the General or one of the staff officers regarding this request. I can't recall. MR GROBLER And after the operation you would then by nature of the situation, or perhaps I'm assuming too much, after the operation you reported back to General Joubert regarding how the operation went? MR NAUDE Yes, that's correct, I reported back to the General. MR GROBLER And what would be the extent of the report-back have been? MR NAUDE Simply the success or the details. I provided no details, I simply said that the operation had been a success according to the way it had been planned. All troops had returned safely and that was the end of the matter, I didn't tell him anything else. MR GROBLER Just a moment please, Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER I'd like to ask you something in the meantime. It has come to light that there was also a memorandum which was handed over to the General, and you requested this from the Security Police. Is that the way I have put it to you, was there a memorandum? MR NAUDE Chairperson, I must tell you that after it having been mentioned I can remember that I requested this document, but the fact is that we handled so many documents that to remember what was given to me and what was not given to me 12 years ago is very difficult, but I can remember that I requested a memorandum. ADV DE JAGER One understand these reasons and so forth, but your recollection has been refreshed and you requested a memorandum and you agree that you did put in this request. And once your memory has been refreshed I'm sure you'd be able to tell us why you requested the memorandum and what in broad terms was contained in the memorandum. MR NAUDE I can't recall the detail of the memorandum, however I can recall that we discussed a very brief summary of what was happening with the Ribeiro's. The fact that they were involved in the funding and the training and transfer of people and so forth were particulars which I requested in a memorandum form. MR GROBLER Chairperson, perhaps we are at the moment not entirely on track. My recollection of Brigadier Cronje's evidence is that he did indeed - and my learned friend will help me, not provide that memorandum but that he provided or made certain information available, on the grounds of which they would be able to compile their own memorandum. I may be recalling incorrectly. ADV DE JAGER I should be pleased if we don't make any statements to the witness which are not correct, seeing as we are aware of the information now. We are trying to get the facts together correctly so that we can put questions to the witness. MR GROBLER Yes, you are entirely correct, Chairperson, but the question was what the content was, and that is what I based my interjection upon. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And that appears on page 500. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE I think you are correct, a memorandum was not handed to Mr Naude, but a file was made available and Cronje insisted that they had to prepare their own memorandum. MR GROBLER I thank you, Judge, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON We've reached a stage where we have to adjourn for the day and we will resume at nine thirty tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS