amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-08 PRETORIA 3 N.J. ROBEY AM5470/97 RIBEIRO MURDERS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53244&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990408pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MS LOCKHAT The next applicant is Mr Robey. MR WESSELS Mr Chairman, Mr Robey's application appears on pages 1 - 6 of Bundle 4. ADV DE JAGER English or Afrikaans speaking? MR ROBEY English speaking. N.J. ROBEY (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS Mr Robey, during 1986 you were working under the command of Commandant Naude at that time? MR ROBEY That is correct. MR WESSELS You have heard the evidence that he gave in regard to the Ribeiro incident, is that correct? MR ROBEY I heard that, yes. MR WESSELS And he mentioned that you were involved in this operation? MR ROBEY That is affirmative, yes. MR WESSELS Can you just tell the Commission to what extent you were involved and what you did? MR ROBEY Well, I was part of the planning and the execution of the operation. MR WESSELS Yes, to what extent? What exactly were your functions and what did you do? MR ROBEY Well, I had to pick up the operators, I had to brief them and then conduct the reconnaissance of the subject and the carrying out of the whole phase from the time that the operators went in to go and do the execution of the operation, until the time that they came back to me. MR WESSELS Yes. Now where did you pick them up? MR ROBEY At Special Forces HQ. MR WESSELS And what names were you given, under what names would they go under? MR ROBEY There was two chaps. The first one was John or Gao Pinta. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can you spell those names for me please. MR ROBEY John Pinta or Gao, I wouldn't know the Portuguese spelling of Gao, but I knew him as John, Johnny. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and the surname was? MR ROBEY Pinta. CHAIRPERSON Pinta? MR ROBEY I would assume so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And the other? MR ROBEY Louis da Silva. MR WESSELS Are these the names that they gave to you? MR ROBEY That is affirmative. MR WESSELS What name did you give them? Under what name did you go? MR ROBEY My name was Lionel Kirby. MR WESSELS Did you give them the name of Lionel Kirby? MR ROBEY Yes. MR WESSELS Why did you give them that name? MR ROBEY Because that was my operational name. MR WESSELS Did you operate under false names at that time? MR ROBEY That is affirmative, yes. MR WESSELS Do you know whether they were using their real names or whether they were using false names? MR ROBEY I assume that they were using their real names. MR WESSELS Very well, you picked them up and what did you then do with them? MR ROBEY From the pick up, I then took them to the rear of Special Forces HQ and I briefed them on the subject of the target, and explained exactly what was the procedure going to be for the next couple of days, however long this operation was going to take. I then told them that we have identified two hotels where they can go and stay in, they must make a decision which one they want to go and stay in. I handed them over R2 000 and also my cell, not cell, my bleeper number. MR WESSELS Yes. CHAIRPERSON You gave each one of them R2 000 or ... MR ROBEY No, R2 000 between the two. MR WESSELS Yes? MR ROBEY I then took them and dropped them off at the Central Station here in Pretoria and I showed them the Victoria Hotel and down the road, the Manhattan Hotel. I told them to book into one of the hotels and contact me on my bleeper and tell me which hotel they were staying in. Thereafter I also said that they had to meet me the following morning, at eight o'clock, at the point where I dropped them off at the station. CHAIRPERSON Which hotel did they select? MR ROBEY They ended up staying at the Manhattan. MR WESSELS Yes? MR ROBEY The following morning, eight o'clock, I then picked them up. This was done in a blue Golf vehicle and I then showed them the route out to Mamelodi, along Church Street and to the turn off, which was there by the Silverton/Mamelodi Road, and then drove them to where the RV would be with me, once the operation was completed, which was just down the road. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Showed them what, the RV? MR ROBEY The rendezvous, sorry, the rendezvous. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. MR ROBEY The rendezvous point. MR WESSELS Yes? MR ROBEY Thereafter the rendezvous point was known to them, and we rode the route backwards and forwards, six or more times, from the hotel to the rendezvous point that particular day. CHAIRPERSON May I just enquire, what language did they speak? MR ROBEY They spoke English with me, Mr Chairman, with an accent. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR ROBEY During, well prior, I omitted one thing, prior to that, on the morning of the second day, we had already propositioned a red Opel vehicle at the Palm Hotel which was going to be their vehicle, that there was done by Mr Vlietstra. After this riding backwards and forwards the route, at late afternoon, I handed the vehicle to them and told them then to ride the route, back to town, back to the hotel. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR ROBEY Which they did do, they drove it back, I was following them to make sure that there was no hiccups in the route, or the route that I had been driving with them the whole time. MR WESSELS Yes? CHAIRPERSON Who were you accompanied by? MR ROBEY Myself Mr Chairman. MR WESSELS So you were alone at that stage? MR ROBEY Affirmative. MR WESSELS Yes, and after that? MR ROBEY Well the morning of the third day, met them again at the station where we always met, rode the route and then from there, when we got to the meeting place, or the RV, they then proceeded to ride and get to know the Mamelodi, or the area that they were supposed to know, which was Dr Ribeiro's house and his surgery, familiarise themselves with the area there, which they did do. That they did the whole day. CHAIRPERSON Dr Ribeiro's house and surgery, are they one complex? MR ROBEY No, they were two different complexes. CHAIRPERSON They were some distance apart, or were they close to each other? MR ROBEY They were some distance apart, yes, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER But on the same erf or on different erfs? MR ROBEY No, different locations. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR WESSELS Yes? MR ROBEY They then came back and they were quite happy with the area and the target areas, etc. Again I followed them back to the station area where they went back to the hotel. I then got hold of Mr Naude and said that the chaps know the area, they have familiarised themselves with it, there is no hiccups to and fro, they know the route, etc, so everything is all right from our side. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR ROBEY On the fourth day Mr Naude phoned me to say that it's - carry on with the operation. It was roundabout half past eleven in the morning, but we must wait until in the afternoon, from four o'clock onwards, because that is when Dr Ribeiro and his wife, would return home after hours, after work. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR ROBEY From there I went and got the pistols that were to be used in the operation, two Colt 45's with silencers. I put them in a duffelbag with towels, etc over it. I picked up Mr Vlietstra in my vehicle, which was a Landrover and then went to the Schoeman Street parking garage where I used to park the blue Golf the whole time, after every day's work, I used to go and park the blue Golf and go home in my own vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR ROBEY We got there at about - I first phoned the chaps to meet me at the station. That I made arrangements for at half past three. I went and parked the car a distance away from the station because Mr Vlietstra was in the vehicle with me. I then walked up to the station area with the duffelbag with the weapons inside, handed it over to them and said that the operation, obviously, is on the go. They must carry on the route that we have chosen and watched them take off. When I saw them disappear around the corner, I went back to my Landrover with Mr Vlietstra, and drove down to Schoeman Street, the parking garage where I parked my vehicle and at this time, it must have been quarter past four, I parked the Landrover and went to the Golf and unfortunately the Golf wouldn't start. After trying for 10, 15 minutes, I knew I was running out of time, so I got into the Landrover and proceeded to the Palm Hotel where the meeting place was with Mr Naude and the Security Police. When I got there, I told them the problem with reference to the Golf, it wouldn't start, etc. It was critical ... (tape ends) ... cancelling, aborting the operation, so I was told to carry on with the Landrover to the RV point, which I did do. I waited at the RV point or the meeting place until such time that the chaps had finished the operation, and came back. Later on, I can't exactly remember timings, their vehicle pulled in front of mine, which was the Landrover, so I kept on standing outside, knowing that these chaps wouldn't recognise the vehicle. They pulled in ahead of us and they got out of the vehicle, left the weapons, etc in their vehicle, they jumped into the Landrover. Mr Vlietstra climbed into the red vehicle, the Kadet or Opel vehicle and he drove off and I continued driving off, back into town, the route that we had always driven. Except when we got into town, I drove around a bit, making sure that no one had followed us, etc. I dropped them off at the station, telling them that they must pay their hotel bills and be ready for a pick up from me in the morning, the following day, at five o'clock, so that I could drop them off, back at Special Forces HQ and their return to Ndangwa. CHAIRPERSON What time was it when they had returned from completing the operation? MR ROBEY Mr Chairman, it must have been quarter past six, six o'clock to quarter past six, somewhere around there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR WESSELS Did you then pick them up the following morning at five o'clock? MR ROBEY That is affirmative, I picked them up the next morning at five o'clock and drove them through to Special Forces HQ, dropped them off and I then proceeded back to the office. MR WESSELS Did you ever see them again or hear of them again? MR ROBEY No, never. MR WESSELS Did they report to you what had happened at the scene? MR ROBEY They said they had a bit of difficulty when the incident took place, when the shooting started. A lot of people tried to surround them, they then, when they were running back to the vehicle, they fired a couple of shots in the air because there was a group of people trying to surround them. When they did that, everyone like got out of the way, they got in their vehicle and skedaddle out of there quite fast. MR WESSELS I have no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS CHAIRPERSON Yes, cross-examination? Mr Powe? MR VISSER Visser, Mr Chairman, none by myself, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Oh, I see, right. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS Mr Chairman, may I be permitted one question which I should really have put to Commandant Naude and perhaps Mr Robey, you are not in a position to answer that, is there a specific reason why two operators were used instead of one? MR ROBEY Well, in Special Forces you do have small teams operating, and as they have in bush warfare, whatever warfare, you've always got to have a backup. Two is the minimum, one person going in alone, is total madness. Somebody could have come out, shot him, or kill a person, at least you've got a backup. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS MR GROBLER I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GROBLER CHAIRPERSON On behalf of the family? MR POWE The Evidence Leader has indicated she will go first, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I am suggesting that you carry on first. The Evidence Leader is not as vitally concerned as you are about this matter. MR POWE Thank you Chairperson. I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR POWE CHAIRPERSON That is very neat footwork. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Mr Robey, how come you knew the area so well? How come you knew the Mamelodi, and Ribeiro's house so well? MR ROBEY Well, prior to this whole operation going off, I went with Mr Naude to Brigadier Cronje's office, we received a folder. I then studied the folder and in that folder, was an aerial map of the area, a photograph of Mr and Mrs Ribeiro. There was a street plan, map and a foolscap page which was about three quarters written of a brief history of them, and their routine. After studying the map and working on the ground with the map, and the aerial photograph, you get to know the area. MS LOCKHAT Okay. I believe you had a conversation ... JUDGE KHAMPEPE May I interpose Ms Lockhat before you proceed on this aspect of his evidence. You only knew the area from you studying the aerial photographs and what was contained in the file? MR ROBEY That is affirmative, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You were never taken there by Captain Hechter at any stage? MR ROBEY Never taken there. The only way that I did get to know that area, was by actually driving that route. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. And had Mr Naude been taken to the Ribeiro's house by Mr Hechter to your knowledge? MR ROBEY No, not to my knowledge, not at all. JUDGE KHAMPEPE As far as you are aware, he was also not familiar with where the Ribeiro's were staying? MR ROBEY Are you talking about Mr Naude? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes? MR ROBEY I don't think that Mr Naude would have known that area, because we never worked there before. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So you wouldn't agree with any evidence which suggested that you were taken either, either you or Mr Naude were taken to the Ribeiro's house by Mr Hechter? MR ROBEY Well, I was never taken there, never. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do carry on. MS LOCKHAT When the operatives arrived, did you introduce them to Naude? MR ROBEY Negative Mr Chairman. MS LOCKHAT You said you contacted Naude and said that, he said that you should wait until four o'clock to actually start the operation, because the Ribeiro's would come home later, at that time. How come he knew that specific detail? MR ROBEY Well, obviously work in any instance, finishes at five o'clock, and also as I said earlier on, in that file that we got, was a routine prior to us even knowing the routine that we watched. MS LOCKHAT Was Mr Naude informed of this routine, did he receive that specific aspects relating to the file, regarding that? MR ROBEY No, because it didn't apply to him, the routine was monitored by us and their ways, they knew it. MS LOCKHAT So you are basically saying that it is just common knowledge that he knew that they would return from work after four o'clock? MR ROBEY He didn't say specifically four o'clock, he mentioned the fact after four o'clock, the operation must continue. MS LOCKHAT Tell me, were your instructions - what were your instructions, was it to kill Dr Ribeiro or both parties? MR ROBEY Both parties were to be killed. MS LOCKHAT Who gave you this instruction? MR ROBEY My instructions came from Mr Naude. MS LOCKHAT Tell me, was that the only weapons you had given them? MR ROBEY That is affirmative Mr Chairman. MS LOCKHAT And the two operatives, just confirm, that is not their false names, but that is actually their real names, their official names? MR ROBEY I would not know, I wouldn't question them on that. I introduced myself as Lionel Kirby and they introduced themselves. MS LOCKHAT Did you work with them previously? MR ROBEY Never. Never seen them before and never worked with them before. MS LOCKHAT Just seemed a bit familiar when you said you always referred to the one as Johnny and it just seemed like a familiar ... MR ROBEY No, it was Gao, the word Gao. It was not a familiar word or a name, around here, so I referred to him as John, Johnny. MS LOCKHAT No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Robey, you were given a file by your immediate Commander, Mr Naude, to study in preparation of the execution of the elimination of the Ribeiro's? MR ROBEY We went to Brigadier Cronje's office with Mr Hechter also being there, we came out with a file. Mr Naude had a brief look at it, and then handed it over to me, which I then in depth studied. It was not a file as such, it was a folder. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. Can you recall what was contained in that file? MR ROBEY In the folder was an aerial map of Mamelodi, a road, street plan map of Mamelodi, the position of their house and also of the surgery and then also as I said, a foolscap page which was about three quarters written of their routine and a brief outline of what their activities were. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And what was the brief outline of their activities? MR ROBEY That they had helped the ANC cadres to and fro, to and from Swaziland, that they helped them monetary wise, that they had helped them with medical wise. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Was there no mention of the fact that they had conducted training themselves? MR ROBEY I can't recall that, no Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You were not Mr Naude, had a careful study of that folder, is it not so? MR ROBEY I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? JUDGE KHAMPEPE You were instructed by Mr Naude to make a careful study of the folder? MR ROBEY Yes, I was told. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And it was very important for you to ascertain the activities the Ribeiro's were engaged in, is it not so? MR ROBEY That is so, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Would you not remember whether they were involved in the training of activists if you had made such a careful study? MR ROBEY Well, as I said the folder or this summary was a very, very brief summary. Who had written it, where it came from, I did not know, and in that was the fact that they were taking people to and from Swaziland for training, bringing back trained people, personnel, that they were giving medical aid to wounded people there in Mamelodi, that they were giving them monetary support, etc. Reference that and the video story, I can't remember reading that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. From the time that you were instructed by Mr Naude to study the file, and the time that you picked up the two operatives from Namibia, how long would you estimate that took you in terms of days, in terms of weeks? MR ROBEY It was days, it wasn't weeks, no, not at all. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, how long would you say? MR ROBEY Five, six days Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE When the operatives gave you a report after executing the operation, what details did they give you? You have not in your evidence in chief given us sufficient details to enable us to be in the picture of what they told you had happened with regard to how the shooting was carried out, where the Ribeiro's were shot, how many times they were shot? Would you please give us those details? MR ROBEY As I said, they monitored the house, they went to the house and knocked on the door. They gained entrance and when they saw these chaps apparently pull their pistols, then they started screaming. They then fired, how many shots were fired, I do not know, because as I said when they came back, and the vehicles were, they had changed vehicles and Mr Vlietstra took the vehicle, with their weapons in it, that was the last time I saw that vehicle and the weapons. I couldn't check how many shots had been fired, but they did shoot quite a number of shots and as I said, on their escape out, a lot of people tried to corner them, and they did shoot a couple of more shots in the air to make an escape. JUDGE KHAMPEPE How are you able to know that quite a number of shots were fired if this information was not ... MR ROBEY That is what they told me, that is what they told me Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE They did not indicate the number? MR ROBEY The number, the exact number, no they did not. MR ROBEY They just said quite a number of shots? JUDGE KHAMPEPE Did they indicate whether they were sure at the time of their departure, if the Ribeiro's had died? MR ROBEY Well, they did mention that they saw them falling down and the fact that they were down, and with all the noise and that going on, they just got out as soon as possible. But with the weapons that they were using, 45, it is quite a high impact weapon. I wouldn't say many shots would need to kill a person. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, did they give an indication on which part of their bodies they were shot? MR ROBEY Chest area. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Is that what they told you? MR ROBEY Basically yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Are you in a position to recall whether you were present in a meeting wherein Brigadier Cronje approved of the elimination of Dr Ribeiro and Mrs Ribeiro? MR ROBEY No, Mr Chairman, I was never in such a meeting. The only meeting, or not meeting, the only time that I ever saw Brigadier Cronje was that day when I went up there with Mr Naude to go and get this folder. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. And do you know what discussion went on at that meeting? MR ROBEY No, I do not know Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Only a folder was given to you and Mr Naude, no discussion took place? MR ROBEY Not at that time, no. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And definitely not with regard to the targeting or the elimination of the Ribeiro's? MR ROBEY No, not at that time. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR WESSELS Mr Chairman, may I ask a question with regard to the questions Judge Khampepe asked? CHAIRPERSON Yes. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS Mr Robey, when you got the folder, were you required to check on the activist activities of the Ribeiro's, or were you only required to check on their movements? MR ROBEY Just the movement Mr Chairman. MR WESSELS And was that to be able to plan the operation? MR ROBEY That is affirmative. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS MR VISSER Mr Chairman, Visser on record, I am afraid there is an aspect which I neglected to put to the witness, may I ask your permission to deal with it? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do Mr Visser. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Robey, were you ever accosted by the Police after this incident, arrested, charged or whatever? MR ROBEY Yes, I was. MR VISSER Can you just give us some information as to what happened? MR ROBEY I do not know the Officers that arrested me, but we went to the Mamelodi police station, where I was formally arrested and I had to put in a statement, which of course I did do, which was totally false. MR VISSER Yes. Yes, I assumed so. But was the arrest for murder or for what? MR ROBEY It was for the murder of Dr and Mrs Ribeiro . MR VISSER Were you ever told or did you ever discover how the Police came to realise that you might be involved? MR ROBEY Yes it was, it was due to the incident with the vehicles that I was talking about earlier on. As I said unfortunately I had to use my Landrover, and that was picked up and they then came around to my place. MR VISSER I was given to understand from the evidence of Brigadier Cronje, that the number plate, the registration number of the Landrover was traced back to Special Forces or the Defence Force? MR ROBEY No, back to me. MR VISSER Back to you personally? MR ROBEY Yes, because it was, yes, it was in my name. MR VISSER It was in your name and that is how they got to you? MR ROBEY The number plate was KYK4990. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. I am sorry Mr Chairman, I am sorry, what happened after your arrest? Was there any hearing held? MR ROBEY Yes, there was a court case. MR VISSER Was it an inquest or was it a criminal case against you? MR ROBEY I am sure it was an inquest. MR VISSER Yes. And you were absolved from all liability? MR ROBEY That is affirmative. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I am in a similar position, may I put just one question to the witness please? CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Mr Robey, do you have any idea who compiled the folder that you were given? MR ROBEY Negative, not at all. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Very well, you are excused, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED