amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-08 PRETORIA 3 C. VLIETSTRA AM7985/97 RIBEIRO MURDERS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53245&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990408pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MS LOCKHAT We call on Mr Vlietstra. MR WESSELS Mr Chairman, the application of Mr Vlietstra, appears on page 185 of the Bundle. ADV DE JAGER That is Bundle 4? MR WESSELS Bundle 4, correct. ADV DE JAGER Afrikaans or English speaking? MR VLIETSTRA Afrikaans. C. VLIETSTRA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS Mr Vlietstra, is it correct that during 1986 you were a member of Special Forces? MR VLIETSTRA That is correct. MR WESSELS And you worked under Commandant Naude? MR VLIETSTRA That is correct. MR WESSELS Is it correct that you received instructions from Commandant Naude to assist in the operation where the Ribeiro's would be eliminated? MR VLIETSTRA That is correct Chairperson. MR WESSELS You have heard the evidence of Mr Robey? MR VLIETSTRA I did. MR WESSELS And you drove with him on the day of the incident and when the operatives returned from Mamelodi, they stopped and climbed into the Landrover and you drove away the vehicle that they were driving? MR VLIETSTRA That is correct Chairperson. MR WESSELS What did you do with this vehicle? MR VLIETSTRA I drove it to the Unit's office and parked it there. MR WESSELS Do you know what happened to this vehicle? MR VLIETSTRA I have no idea. MR WESSELS Did you see any weapons in the vehicle? MR VLIETSTRA Yes, the weapons were next to me in the vehicle. When I locked the vehicle, I gave the keys to Mr Naude and I departed. MR WESSELS Were you involved in any further way in this incident. MR VLIETSTRA Not at all. MR WESSELS I have no more questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS MR VISSER No questions from Visser, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER MR GROBLER No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GROBLER MR WAGENER No questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER MR DU PLESSIS I also have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT You said you received the instructions from Mr Naude, is that correct? MR VLIETSTRA That is correct. MS LOCKHAT What did he tell you, what did he inform you? MR VLIETSTRA He informed me - may I speak Afrikaans - he gave me instructions to assist Mr Robey with the moving of the vehicles. This was my only purpose in this operation. MS LOCKHAT Did you know who was going to be eliminated? MR VLIETSTRA I was told, yes. MS LOCKHAT Who told you this? MR VLIETSTRA Mr Naude. MS LOCKHAT So what exactly did he tell you? MR VLIETSTRA He said there was going to be an attack on Dr and Mrs Ribeiro. MS LOCKHAT Did he tell you why? MR VLIETSTRA He did not tell me in detail, but I was aware that they were part of the terrorist struggle. MS LOCKHAT Did you receive the file, did you have a look at the file as well? MR VLIETSTRA Not at all. MS LOCKHAT So your instructions were just to assist in driving the vehicles? MR VLIETSTRA That is correct. MS LOCKHAT Did you meet the operatives as well? MR VLIETSTRA No, except for the fact when we exchanged vehicles, when I jumped out of the vehicle, they ran passed me. I saw them for about ten seconds, maybe less, and I never saw them again. I don't think I would be able to recognise them if I saw them again today. MS LOCKHAT You said there were weapons in the car. What type of weapons were there? MR VLIETSTRA It was 45 Colts with long silencers. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR POWE Chairperson, you skipped me over, I didn't mean to forever forego my privilege, if I may call it that, of putting questions. I've got two questions. Mr Vlietstra, you are welcome to answer me in Afrikaans. MR VLIETSTRA Thank you. MR POWE In your application on page 196 and paragraph 10(a) thereof, you set out why you became involved in this operation and you say amongst others, Dr and Mrs Ribeiro, I was told that Dr and Mrs Ribeiro were responsible for the destabilisation of Mamelodi and that it was necessary for them to be eliminated. Now you have just said in reply to the Evidence Leader that Mr Naude did not tell you why the Ribeiro's were to be eliminated. If that is so, if I understood you correctly, who told you as is set out in your application at page 196? MR VLIETSTRA Mr Chairperson, if I can remind you, I had said that Mr Naude told me that they were involved in the terrorist struggle. MR POWE Was that Mr Naude who told you that, then I misunderstood your answer and I apologise. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You did Mr Powe. MR POWE On page 197 of your application, paragraph 11(a) you say I understood that Naude was under the command of Brigadier Jack Cronje of the Security Police with regard to the relevant operation. Now where did you get this understanding from? MR VLIETSTRA I was aware and since I worked with Mr Naude, that we had to work closely with the SAP during that time. We might have expressed ourselves incorrectly by saying that we were under the command of Cronje, I understand now that it was in support, but I might have used the term under his command incorrectly. MR POWE So Mr Naude was not under the command of Brigadier Cronje you say, but rather supporting him, that is what you now say? MR VLIETSTRA That is correct Chairperson. MR POWE No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR POWE CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR WESSELS No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS JUDGE KHAMPEPE I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED