amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-08 PRETORIA 3 PIETER JOHAN VERSTER AM5471/97 RIBEIRO MURDERS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53247&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990408pt.htm ON RESUMPTION ADV DE JAGER Mr Wessels, can you tell us with regard to this case, if this is the same, because nobody has said anything about Mr Verster being involved in any way in this case? MR WESSELS Mr Chairperson, the position is the same as the previous time that he gave evidence, that he became aware of this operation, although he had not been involved in the planning thereof. He did come to know of it, and because of that, according to common law, he can be regarded as an accomplice. Once again, it is a case that it is my submission that it is not necessary for him to appear, that this can be handled on an administrative level. I don't know whether it is necessary for him to give evidence in chief. CHAIRPERSON He is here, we have all the documents before us, let's deal with it and get done with it. MR WESSELS Very well Mr Chairman. His application appears on page 24 of Bundle 4. PIETER JOHAN VERSTER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS Mr Verster, is it correct that you were not involved in the planning or the execution of this operation, as stated in your application, however, you did come to know of it after it had occurred? MR VERSTER Yes, that is correct. MR WESSELS Furthermore, at a later stage, you also attended a meeting with certain members of the Police? MR VERSTER That is correct. MR WESSELS And you did not spread this information any further, but kept it within the confines of Special Forces? MR VERSTER Yes, that is correct. MR WESSELS I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS CHAIRPERSON Precisely what it is that he is applying for amnesty? MR WESSELS That is for the being an accomplice in the murder of the Ribeiro's. CHAIRPERSON To what extent, when you say an accomplice, how is he? MR WESSELS He could be under common law, knowing about the matter, and not disclosing it and therefore concealing the identity of the perpetrators, might result in him being an accomplice in common law, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON He could not have disclosed the identity of the murders, because he did not witness it? MR WESSELS No, but he knew about the identity of at least Naude and Robey and Vlietstra in the Special Forces, and they were part of the murder operation. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but he merely heard about them, not seen them? MR WESSELS Yes, certainly no, definitely. CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting that everybody who hears about a murder, can become an accomplice? MR WESSELS Mr Chairman, he could be technically charged for being an accessory after the fact. I am not saying that he was, but there may be someone who at some stage thought that he should be charged as such, and for that reason it was thought prudent for him to make an application for amnesty to cover that eventuality. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you very much. Is there anybody here bold enough to cross-examine him? MR VISSER Not me, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, you surprise me. Do you have any questions? MS LOCKHAT I just want to ask one question Chairperson, if Mr Verster was a Staff Officer at Special Forces because Mr Naude said that it was possible that he could have asked Mr Verster to actually organise the operatives. I just want to clarify that in my mind. CHAIRPERSON Put that to him. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Were you the Staff Officer that Naude ... MR VERSTER That is correct Mr Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT So did you actually locate the operatives? MR VERSTER Chairperson, if I might put it as follows, we were Special Forces Headquarters with various operational bases in the Namibia environment and in South Africa. Some of the operatives lived in Phalaborwa, others in Zululand, others in Langebaan, some of them in Durban, and it was normal practice for me as a Staff Officer to use the radio or telephone communication from the Operational Room, and contact certain people's movements. It would have been one of my duties, but I cannot recall that I contacted these two specific persons, but it was my job to move certain people among the various operational areas on a weekly basis. MS LOCKHAT It just seems a bit unusual that you are in all the applications with these applicants, and it would seem probably a matter of course that they would approach you to provide them with these operatives? MR VERSTER Chairperson, I am the Staff Officer of the Commanding General, I was Staff Officer along with various other Staff Officers in a large structure which formed part of military functioning and that is how I executed my duties. The specific handling of two persons who were involved in a certain operation, would not be done in an obvious manner, where names would be provided or exception be made. On the contrary, it is my opinion that it would have been on the normal scheduled flights as already testified to. MS LOCKHAT Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Does this bring us to the end of the Ribeiro matter? MS LOCKHAT No Chairperson, we have one other amnesty applicant, Mr J.J.H. van Jaarsveld. We call Mr Van Jaarsveld.