amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-09 PRETORIA 4 DEON GOUWS AM3759/96 PIET NTULI MATTER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53251&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990409pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is the next applicant? MS LOCKHAT The next amnesty applicant is Mr D. Gouws. ADV DE JAGER Your full names? MR GOUWS Deon Gouws. DEON GOUWS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman you will find the application of Mr Gouws, on page 52 and further in Bundle 7. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Please proceed. MR ROSSOUW Thank you. Mr Gouws, as Mr Oosthuizen, you have been referred to the evidence which I referred to initially. ADV DE JAGER Mr Rossouw, you can simply ask him whether or not he confirms this, you don't have to go through everything, we are interested in his share and his role. He has heard the background evidence, if he agrees with it, let him confirm it, and let us get to the events as quickly as possible. MR ROSSOUW As the Chair pleases. Mr Chairman, that was my intention. Mr Gouws, you have listened to the evidence which was presented in previous matters to Mr Oosthuizen, you have been informed thereof and you know thereof, is that correct? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW You also request that this be read with your amnesty application? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW You are also applying for amnesty for murder and your involvement in the murder of Piet Ntuli? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And any other offences arising from your involvement there? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW You have a copy of your application before you? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Do you confirm your application, is it correct? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW Then I ask you to proceed to page 57. Do you confirm the background with regard to your involvement in the South African Police and your career there? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW To begin with, with this operation on Piet Ntuli, were you a member of the Investigative Unit in KwaNdebele about which Mr Oosthuizen has given evidence? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And you also had intimate knowledge of the political unrest and the events in KwaNdebele at that stage? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Can you then explain to the Committee how you became involved with the incident? MR GOUWS Chairperson, on a specific day Brigadier Cronje, Captain Hechter came to our camp in Siyabuswa at the Waterworks. From there, we went to an open field opposite the government offices in Siyabuswa where we had a braai. ADV DE JAGER Were you previously informed that there would be an operation and that you would accompany them? MR GOUWS Yes. ADV DE JAGER By who were you informed? MR GOUWS By Captain Hechter. ADV DE JAGER How long before the time? MR GOUWS On that very same day. ADV DE JAGER That same day? So he arrived at the camp and you went with him to this open field? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER And you knew that there would be an attempt on Ntuli's life? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER Now tell us what happened. MR GOUWS From there, I can't remember at which stage Mr Kendall joined us, but we went in a vehicle to the fence around the government offices as well as the residences in which the Ministers resided. We went in one vehicle, that would be Brigadier Cronje, Captain Hechter, Captain Kendall as well as myself. We parked next to the vehicle of Mr Ntuli. MR ROSSOUW What role did you play at that stage, what would you have done there, what was your function? MR GOUWS I was only there for security. MR ROSSOUW Can you explain to the Committee where you would have performed your security role? MR GOUWS Outside the vehicle where the bomb was supposed to be placed below the vehicle. Brigadier Cronje and Kendall went into the residence of the Minister, upon which Hechter and I remained behind. Hechter took a device out of something that looked like a cake tin, and placed it below the vehicle. MR ROSSOUW Can you indicate to the Committee on which place below the vehicle, on the position on the vehicle? MR GOUWS It was under the driver's seat of the vehicle. There were guards in the vicinity but they weren't bothered by us. After a while Brigadier and Kendall came out and we left. If I remember correctly, I climbed into the kombi and I received an apparatus and after the Minister's vehicle drove passed us, approximately ten seconds thereafter, I pressed the switch - or as the vehicle went passed, I pressed the switch and ten seconds later, I heard the explosion. MR ROSSOUW Just on that point, did you and Mr Oosthuizen have any discussion or planning about when the bomb was to be activated and where it was supposed to explode? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. We knew the environment quite well at that stage, we had spent two months there, it was just after the Siyabuswa Police station, there was an S-turn. As Mr Oosthuizen has testified, it was - there was a speed limit of 30 - 40 kilometres per hour, and it was on that S-turn that the bomb was to explode. That is how we did it. CHAIRPERSON Who gave you this device? MR GOUWS Captain Hechter, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Can you explain what happened further after the bomb was activated? MR GOUWS I am not entirely certain, but I think we went back to the camp where we were living, at Waterworks. That is the end of the story. MR ROSSOUW Did you ever visit the scene? MR GOUWS I cannot recall whether I visit the scene directly afterwards, but at a later stage, I was there. MR ROSSOUW Very well. ADV DE JAGER Mr Gouws, where in the car did you sit when you went in? MR GOUWS Behind. ADV DE JAGER Were you sitting in the car or were you laying in the car? MR GOUWS I can't recall exactly what my position was, whether I sat or lay. MR ROSSOUW Mr Gouws, may I refer you to page 59, the annexure to your amnesty application, paragraph 1, the second last sentence. There you say that Mr Kendall arrived at your camp, are you referring there to the Waterworks camp or the place where you were braaiing in the open field? MR GOUWS That would be in the open field where we were having a braai. MR ROSSOUW That is a faulty reference then? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Regarding your knowledge of the situation and the faction fighting that was taking place in KwaNdebele, as set out in paragraph 2, you confirm this? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW In paragraph 3, the third and the fourth sentences, there is a bit of a leap. You refer to Brigadier Van Wyk, your direct Commander at camp, at Waterworks, who remained behind? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW And then you say that you went with Cronje, Hechter and Oosthuizen when you departed. It would appear that you departed with Kendall from there to the Minister's house? MR GOUWS No, at that stage Kendall wasn't present. MR ROSSOUW So what you mean is that you left from the open field, to the Minister's house? MR GOUWS That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Your Commander, Van Wyk, was there and you left with Cronje from there, from the camp? MR GOUWS From where we lived? Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER So he was aware that you were going with Cronje? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW You heard that Mr Oosthuizen gave evidence that earlier that day, at the Waterworks camp, a discussion had taken place between Brigadier Cronje and Brigadier Van Wyk, do you know about that, were you present? MR GOUWS I was present, but what the extent thereof was, is not known to me. MR ROSSOUW You have also heard that there was evidence that you and Mr Oosthuizen argued about who ... ADV DE JAGER Mr Rossouw, really, I don't think it is necessary for you to discuss that. Whether or not they had an argument, both of them were involved, and it would appear that both of them set the apparatus off, and I don't think this is being disputed by anybody, so I don't know whether it is necessary for us to hear the details about it. MR ROSSOUW Mr Gouws, on page 62 of your application, you give your political objective as well as your personal conviction as to why this is related to a political action. Did you have any knowledge that this operation had been approved at a very high level? MR GOUWS I did not know. MR ROSSOUW And your involvement in this flowed from an order which you received from Captain Hechter and at the time of the order, you were under the command of Brigadier Cronje? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW What was your rank at that stage? MR GOUWS I was a Sergeant. MR ROSSOUW So is it correct for me to say that you were the most junior officer during this operation? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Were you in any position to question the order of Captain Hechter as well as the command of Brigadier Cronje at that stage? MR GOUWS No. MR ROSSOUW Did you execute their orders, and why did you execute their orders because you were not a member of the Security Police? MR GOUWS Firstly I had a great deal of respect for both Officers, and I had personal knowledge of Piet Ntuli's activities. MR ROSSOUW There was also co-operation between your team and the Security Police in KwaNdebele? MR GOUWS Yes, very close co-operation. MR ROSSOUW Did you also share information? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW Did you have access to the information of the Security Police at Head Office? MR GOUWS Yes. MR ROSSOUW Did you also receive orders with regard to the investigations of the Security Police and more specifically Hechter and Cronje? MR GOUWS Yes. MR ROSSOUW Also with regard to this operation, you would have been under the command of Warrant Officer Oosthuizen in as far as the line of command was concerned? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CHAIRPERSON Thank you. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Mr Gouws, did I understand you correctly in response to my colleague's question about whether Brigadier Van Wyk was aware of your involvement in this operation, to have said yes, he was aware? MR GOUWS I did not mean that he knew about it, he and Brigadier Cronje did have a discussion at the camp where we lived, but what the content of that discussion was, is unknown to me. Whether he knew about it or not, is unknown to me. JUDGE KHAMPEPE When you left him behind with Brigadier Cronje, Hechter and Oosthuizen, do you think he knew where you were going to? MR GOUWS I don't know. JUDGE KHAMPEPE So to your knowledge, he was not aware of the operation? MR GOUWS As far as I know, he was not aware of it. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Would you also share the same opinion given by Mr Oosthuizen, that the operation was supposed to be kept secret? MR GOUWS That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And that is why he did not advise Brigadier Van Wyk of his involvement? MR GOUWS That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE And would you also share his opinion that it was secret even to Brigadier Van Wyk, even though there was this agreement of co-operation between the two units? MR GOUWS That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Isn't that strange that there should be co-operation between the two units, yet there is this cloth of secrecy even at a high command, such as that enjoyed by Brigadier Van Wyk? MR GOUWS Chairperson, I was a young subordinate Officer at that stage, I didn't ask too many questions, I simply carried out my orders, and got the job done. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But you were given an impression by Captain Hechter, that you were to keep your involvement in this operation, secret from your Commander, Brigadier Van Wyk? MR GOUWS He didn't say it in so many words directly. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, that is why I am saying you were given an impression? MR GOUWS That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE That it was to be kept secret, even from your Commander? MR GOUWS That is correct. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON But you were not to know what the conversation was between Hechter and Cronje on the one hand, and your Commander? MR GOUWS Can you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON You don't know what the conversation was between your Commander on the one hand, and Cronje and Hechter on the other? MR GOUWS No, I didn't know what the discussion was about. CHAIRPERSON It cannot be too surprising if they may have told him about what they intended doing, that is a possibility, isn't it? MR GOUWS That is a possibility, yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Can you see any reason why they might not have told him this? MR GOUWS I can't see any reason why. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEINTJIES Mr Chairman, Meintjies on behalf of Captain Van Jaarsveld, a question please. CHAIRPERSON Yes please. MR MEINTJIES Mr Gouws, just for clarification, was Captain Van Jaarsveld involved in any way in this incident, Captain Jaap van Jaarsveld? MR GOUWS I can recall him at the kombi before the incident. MR MEINTJIES What do you mean before the incident? MR GOUWS When we were braaiing in the field in front of the Minister's residence. MR MEINTJIES So he was present? MR GOUWS Yes, that is correct. MR MEINTJIES No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEINTJIES CHAIRPERSON Any further questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Just one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Gouws, did you get paid for operations whenever you were involved in operations? MR GOUWS Not at all, no. MS LOCKHAT I refer you to page 55 of your amnesty application, on Bundle 7 where you said you received R1 000 from Basie Smit for a Nelspruit incident, is that correct? MR GOUWS Yes, that was in Nelspruit, that was not in regard to this incident. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, can I ask what the relevance of this is with relation to the Ntuli incident? CHAIRPERSON Just let her ask the question, maybe we will get the answer. MS LOCKHAT The relevance is, did you receive any remuneration for this, did you benefit financially from this operation, as in another operation which you said, you previously said you did not really receive any remuneration? MR GOUWS I received no remuneration for this specific operation. MS LOCKHAT No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR ROSSOUW None, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED