amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-09 PRETORIA 4 TREVOR IAN FLOYD AM5454/97 PIET NTULI MATTER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53252&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990409pt.htm CHAIRPERSON The next applicant? MS LOCKHAT The next applicant is Mr T.I. Floyd. MR WESSELS Mr Chairman, I appear for the applicant, the application appears on page 88 of Bundle 7. The witness will speak English. CHAIRPERSON Mr Floyd, what are your full names? MR FLOYD Trevor Ian Floyd. TREVOR IAN FLOYD (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS Mr Floyd, your application appears on page 88 of the Bundle. Do you confirm the correctness of the particulars therein? MR FLOYD I do. MR WESSELS Mr Floyd, is it correct that during 1986 you were in Special Forces? MR FLOYD That is correct Mr Chairman. MR WESSELS What was your rank? MR FLOYD I was a WO1, Warrant Officer Class 1. MR WESSELS Is it further correct that at a certain stage, Gen Joubert came to you and told you that you had to assist Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter in a certain project? MR FLOYD That is correct, Gen Joubert summonsed me to his office and requested me to go and see I think at that stage he was still Colonel Cronje and Captain Hechter in their office in Pretoria, to assist them with an operation that they were busy with. MR WESSELS Yes. Did you then go to Cronje? MR FLOYD I had never met these people before, I did not know where they were. I then asked Colonel Joe Verster, he directed me to where their offices were. I went down and was met by Captain Hechter, who took me up to see Brigadier Cronje. There Brigadier Cronje briefed me about an operation that they had intention of taking place in KwaNdebele, basically the elimination of one Peter Ntuli. I had never been to KwaNdebele or I did not know anything about Peter Ntuli and they briefed me further about his activities and background. I was under the impression that he was a member of the ANC and responsible for terrorist deeds in the KwaNdebele area. Although I was told as well that he was a Minister I think, of Interior of KwaNdebele. MR WESSELS What did you do as a result of your discussion with Cronje? MR FLOYD I was then taken, I had to first go and do a reconnaissance of the area, where the target was, to make sure that a feasible plan could be made. I was taken by Captain Hechter and one other person, who I do not know, it is also a member of their staff, through to KwaNdebele. I was taken, the area or the town, I do not know. I was taken to at one stage, the government offices where Peter Ntuli's car which was a Cressida was parked in the, under a carport and they pointed this out to me and also pointed out more or less where the entrances were to the offices, the gate, unguarded. They also pointed out to me an open piece of ground opposite the government buildings, pointed out the Police station and we then made a basic plan at that stage, or I made a basic plan at that stage, and thought the best method of doing the job, was to place an explosive device under the seat of the car, which could be controlled by radio from a distance away, to ascertain that the vehicle, or whenever the explosive was detonated, that nobody else in the vicinity would get injured. And also that it would not look like it had been done directly at his place of work. MR WESSELS Continue. MR FLOYD We returned back to Pretoria, then I went back to go see Gen Joubert, to report to him. I told him what the basic plan was, not totally final plan, we would have had to do another reconnaissance after that to make sure that everything was hundred percent as we had seen it before. But I told him basically what the plan was and the requirement for a mine or explosive in a form which could be placed under the seat, under the floorboard of a car, directly under the seat of a specific model car, the Cressida. I also requested two arming devices in case we had a problem with the one, the other basically as a backup. Gen Joubert said I had to leave it in his hands. I then went back to my unit and we carried on with my work. I was then notified when the explosive was ready, I came up to see Gen Joubert. He told me take the explosive, take the arming devices, take it through to Captain Hechter and Brigadier Cronje, show them how it works, how to operate the equipment, but no further - I must not get further involved with the operation. He said the reason was, or as I remember at that stage, was that he was not sure if they had got the authority to do the operation. He wanted no further involvement from our side. MR WESSELS Did you then take the mine and give it to Hechter? MR FLOYD I then took the equipment, gave it to Jacques Hechter and explained to him exactly how the equipment operated, where the mine had to be placed or the explosive had to be placed and how it had to be armed, as well as how the firing devices worked Mr Chairman. MR WESSELS Did you have any further involvement in this matter? MR FLOYD I had no further involvement in that matter, I only read about it at a later stage in the paper, about the explosion and then I knew automatically who was involved with that operation, at that stage. MR WESSELS No further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS CHAIRPERSON Any questions to put to this witness? MR GROBLER Mr Chairman, might I just be given a moment? CHAIRPERSON Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GROBLER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Floyd, if I may sum up the instructions from Gen Joubert, they seem to have been very clear that he wanted no involvement of Special Forces operators in the actual performance of the operation itself? MR FLOYD That is correct Mr Chairman. I was specifically in charge of carrying out the operation from a Special Forces side at that stage. If I was tasked not to carry on any further, I would have obeyed that command and seen to it that nobody else got involved. MR GROBLER And other than making the device available to Cronje and Hechter, there was no further Special Forces involvement? MR FLOYD That is affirmative Mr Chairman. MR GROBLER Just for the sake of the record Mr Floyd, at the moment as we sit here, Gen Joubert has no recollection of having told you that he's got doubt about their authority. I am not saying that what you are saying is wrong, or incorrect, at the moment he simply has no recollection. I don't think you have to comment on that unless you wish to. MR FLOYD It is possible Mr Chairman. JUDGE KHAMPEPE But to your knowledge, did Gen Joubert ever explain to you why he thought Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter had no authority to carry out this operation? MR FLOYD Mr Chairperson, Gen Joubert did not even give me the name of the target before. I was tasked to go and help Brigadier Cronje and Captain Jacques Hechter, they would brief me further on what the target was. Mr Chairman, I seem to have lost your question there. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. My question is, in your evidence you stated that you were advised by Gen Joubert not to be involved in the performance of the elimination, that is in the detonation of the bomb simply because he was not sure if Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter had any authority to carry out that operation. MR FLOYD That was my understanding Mr Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes, now my question is, did Gen Joubert ever give you any reason why he thought they had no authority to carry out such an operation? MR FLOYD No Mr Chairman, I don't think he would have given me, I was in a position of trust where I could be told that type of thing. CHAIRPERSON Nor did you ask him? MR FLOYD I did not ask him at all. JUDGE KHAMPEPE You may proceed Mr Grobler. MR GROBLER I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GROBLER CHAIRPERSON Any other questions of this witness? None? Ms Lockhat, any questions? MS LOCKHAT No questions Mr Chairperson, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, thank you very much, you are excused. MR FLOYD Thank you Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED