amntrans D GOUWS: AM 3759/96 1999-04-13 PRETORIA 6 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53258&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990413pt.htm ADV DE JAGER Your full names please? DEON GOUWS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Madam Chair. You'll find the application of Mr Gouws on page 17 of bundle 5. Mr Gouws, do you have a copy of your amnesty application before you? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Gouws, you apply for amnesty for murder, which is now known as the KwaNdebele 9. MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And any other offences that might flow from that? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Do you confirm your application as it appears on page 17 to page 21? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW In your previous evidence you have requested that certain extracts and bundles that have been handed up before this Committee, be read along with your application and has to be seen as the background of your application. MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Madam Chair, the witness has just confirmed what has been handed in as Exhibit G. May I take you to page 22 of your application, as to your background, and page 23, your progress in the police service. Do you confirm that? MR GOUWS That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Page 24 to 25 deals with this incident. Can you please tell the Committee briefly, before this operation, - you heard the evidence of Mr Oosthuizen, that you were part of this investigative unit? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW He gave in-depth evidence as to the workings of this unit, where you worked, what co-operation there was between the Security Branch and your unit, do you confirm that? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Can you tell the Committee how you became involved in this incident, or how were you involved in this incident. MR GOUWS Oosthuizen and myself were contacted by Captain Hechter. I cannot recall if we met with him at his office or where we met, but the end of the story was that we went to the Bron. It was a holiday resort. There was an AK47 handed to me. MR ROSSOUW Did he at that stage already tell you that such an operation was planned? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And did he say - what information did he give to you? MR GOUWS He said that these persons wanted to leave the country for training and that they had to be eliminated. MR ROSSOUW Did he indicate to you where he received the information? MR GOUWS He said he got it from Joe Mamasela. MR ROSSOUW Did you know Joe Mamasela? MR GOUWS Yes, I did, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW You met at the Bron, what was the plan, what would happen with the operation? MR GOUWS We would eliminate these nine persons. MR ROSSOUW Was that the instruction from Captain Hechter? MR GOUWS That is correct, Madam Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW You met at the Bron, you received your weapon, what did you do there? MR GOUWS We cleaned the weapons, we cleaned the rounds. MR ROSSOUW Very well. From the time when you cleaned the weapons, can you please tell the Committee what period thereafter, was it the same day or a few days later that this operation took place? MR GOUWS According to my knowledge it was the same day. MR ROSSOUW Is that your recollection? MR GOUWS That is my recollection of the story. MR ROSSOUW Can you possibly give the Committee an indication as to, at which stage did you receive the instruction before you cleaned the weapon? Can you give us that time period there? MR GOUWS It is difficult, it could have been a day or two or three before we went to the Bron. I cannot recall correctly. MR ROSSOUW Very well. Can you please tell the Committee, this particular day you went there, or can you first tell the Committee what would be the execution thereof, what would be the logistics thereof, who would drive the vehicle, what was the plan. MR GOUWS The plan was, because Joe Mamasela had previously contacted these persons he would go into the residence, Oosthuizen and myself would do the shooting and Captain Hechter would pour the petrol over them afterwards. MR ROSSOUW Would Joe Mamasela also do some shooting? MR GOUWS Yes, that's correct, he offered some training to these people and he was also given an AK47. MR ROSSOUW This particular evening you left for this area, did anything happen on the way? MR GOUWS That is correct, there was an army buffalo vehicle in this particular area. We set a tree alight to divert the attention from us and then we went to this particular residence. MR ROSSOUW Can you please tell the Committee, from the time you arrived at the residence, what happened up to the time the operation was executed. MR GOUWS We stopped at the residence. The residence had a fence around it. Joe Mamasela climbed over the gate. The gate was locked at that stage. After a while he returned and unlocked the gate, Wouter Mentz reversed the vehicle onto the premises. Oosthuizen and myself went into the house. I went into the room, I started shooting. Joe Mamasela was to my left, Oosthuizen was somewhere behind me. I cannot recall exactly how far behind me he was. MR ROSSOUW You don't mean that he was right behind you. MR GOUWS No, he was to the right somewhere behind me. MR ROSSOUW You started shooting, and what happened then? MR GOUWS When we stopped our shooting, right opposite this room there was another room, a black woman came out of the room and I heard some children crying and I pushed her back into the room so that she won't be part of the nine that was to be taken out. Jacques Hechter poured petrol over the bodies, I used the match and from there we left. MR ROSSOUW Very well, Mr Gouws. On page 28 you give the political objectives of this operation. MR GOUWS That is correct, Madam Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW You are aware of the evidence of Mr Oosthuizen, that there was reference made to the evidence of Captain Hechter, as to what the objective of this operation was? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Do you confirm it? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And you heard his confirmation that the objective was similar to the Nietverdiendt 10 incident? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And he confirmed that it was similar to the incident to which, the incident of the Nietverdiendt 10 of Captain Hechter, do you confirm that? MR GOUWS That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Can you please tell the Committee, did you regard it as necessary that activists who wanted to leave the country for terrorist training, that they had to be eliminated? Was there anything else you could do? MR GOUWS According to me it was absolutely necessary that it had to be done because if they returned from abroad, the violence that reigned in KwaNdebele would have been much more. MR ROSSOUW And this was applicable to any activist, no matter where he operated in the country? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Sir, can you please tell the Committee what your rank was at that stage? MR GOUWS I was a Sergeant. MR ROSSOUW Therefore, Mr Oosthuizen was your senior at all times, at all relevant times during this operation? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Who did you accept instructions from in this operation? MR GOUWS It was Captain Hechter. MR ROSSOUW Did you have any reason to question his orders? MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you have any reason to question the information that he conveyed to you about these activists? MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Were you in a position to question an order from a Captain in the police and you were a junior officer, to say no, I will not execute your orders? MR GOUWS Not at that stage, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Gouws, is there anything else that you would like to add to your amnesty application? MR GOUWS No, Madam Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Is it correct that you did not benefit from this personally? MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And you did not act out of malice towards these persons? MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Madam Chair, that's the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Rossouw. Any cross-examination Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr du Plessis. Mr Polsen? MR POLSEN I have no questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR POLSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Meintjies? MR MEINTJIES I have no questions, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Meintjies. Mr van den Berg? MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you, Madam Chair ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Sorry, before you continue, how far is this area, this Tweefontein/Vlakfontein area from Mamelodi in Pretoria? MR GOUWS Chairperson, if I have to make an estimation, from Mamelodi it's approximately 60/70 kilometres, more-or-less. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Mr van den Berg. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG What was Captain van Jaarsveld's role in this operation? MR GOUWS I do not know, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG But haven't you stated that he's the one who poured petrol? MR GOUWS No, that was Captain Hechter, van Jaarsveld I don't know what his part was. CHAIRPERSON Was the question what was Captain van Jaarsveld's role? MR VAN DEN BERG It's Captain van Jaarsveld, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON I have it as Hechter, I'm sorry. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Gouws, I am not sure whether you have the bundle of applications before you, but on page 15 of Captain van Jaarsveld's application, under Incident 3, he says the following "On Monday, the 14th of July 1986, during the day, Jacques Hechter arrived with me, or came to me and he said there was an operation to be executed. He asked me if I wanted to accompany them, I answered affirmative. They would fetch me at home that evening. Later the same evening, it might have been between 10 and 11, Jacques, Wouter Mentz and Deon Gouws and (I'm not sure if Andre Oosthuizen was with them) arrived as we had agreed. I said I could not accompany them because one of my children was very ill." Do you have knowledge of this? MR GOUWS I cannot recall anything of this nature, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG "I recall that they left some of their vehicles with me." Do you know of this? MR GOUWS I do not remember, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Was it your evidence that when you walked into the room, this is now the room where the activists were, that they stood in a row? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you just elaborate on this, it seems strange. MR GOUWS The room had four walls. They stood to the left, in front and on the right side. That is what I mean with a "row", they stood along the walls. MR VAN DEN BERG As if they expected something? MR GOUWS It's possible. MR VAN DEN BERG Mamasela had been into the room before you entered if I remember your evidence. MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Did he tell you, did Mamasela tell you what he did there? MR GOUWS He said that he was busy with training. MR VAN DEN BERG According to you Hechter poured the petrol over the bodies. MR GOUWS That's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG If one has regard to the record in the previous incident, page 771, bundle 2(f), if one has a look there he does not mention the fact that he poured the petrol, he says for example "I stood on the corner monitoring because you could still see the Defence Force vehicles lighting up the area. I stood outside. I cannot remember exactly where, whether it was in front or of the door or at the gate or next to the house. Mamasela, Gouws and Oosthuizen went in and the next moment I heard shots. That was my instruction. I instructed them to go in and eliminate them. They then went and shot them dead. Came out, got ...(tape ends) ... so that it should appear what the youths were doing to the enemies at that time. When they eliminated them they would set them alight." He does not mention that he poured the petrol. MR GOUWS Chairperson, according to me, Captain Hechter poured the petrol. MR VAN DEN BERG We look further in the record, page 796, he is asked by my learned friend Mr Poe, Mr Poe asks him as follows: ...(intervention) MR LAX It's page 34 of your extract. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you, we're indebted. "Let's come to the night in question, what was your involvement, other than driving to the scene and setting the tree alight?" Hechter answers: "I was in charge of the entire operation." "Did you fire any?" - "No." "Did you set anyone alight"? - "No." "You just gave the instructions?" - "Yes, I issued the instructions." Would you comment on this? MR GOUWS Chairperson, according to me, Captain Hechter poured the petrol. MR ROSSOUW Madam Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt, this might be a little bit misleading. To set something alight and to throw petrol is two separate things. Mr Gouws has testified that he set them alight. So this is a little bit confusing. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and his evidence is that Mr Hechter poured the petrol. MR ROSSOUW Yes, but there's a difference to confronting him with this evidence, where the question was put to Hechter whether he set them alight. MR LAX Mr Rossouw, it goes further and frankly the point that's being made is dealt with again on the next page, page 35. If you look down about 10 lines the same issue is raised, he says "There was a house and there was a gate. After they shot I instructed Gouws and went back with him as far as the room. He then poured with petrol and set them alight." So it's clear that in Hechter's mind he never ever had anything to do with the pouring of petrol or the setting anyone alight. And he's saying that the present applicant before us did all of that. ADV DE JAGER But in fact, Hechter or Mentz testified that Hechter had the petrol with him when you went in and that he approached the room with the petrol and maybe he handed it to you or whatever, but he at least had the petrol in his hands ... MR GOUWS Chairperson, I would like to clear this up. I had an AK47. I don't have any place to hold onto a petrol can, that is why I say Hechter poured the petrol and I lit it thereafter. MR VAN DEN BERG You mention in your viva voce evidence and in your application of nine activists, were you informed specifically that there were to be nine activists? MR GOUWS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON May I interrupt? I've been wondering where I had seen some reference also by Captain Hechter that Mr Gouws is the one who poured petrol and I've just remembered now that I made a note thereof. It appears on bundle 2(f) and that's on page 797, from line 13. This is Captain Hechter giving evidence "After they had shot, I instructed Gouws and went back with him as far as the room. He then poured with petrol and set them alight." I think there is something missing, the sentence must properly read: "He then poured them with petrol and set them alight." MR VAN DEN BERG Shall I ask him to comment on that before I move onto ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG Would you like to comment on that point? MR GOUWS Captain Hechter poured the petrol and I set the bodies alight. CHAIRPERSON You can take the matter no further, Mr van den Berg. MR VAN DEN BERG I intend to move onto another point, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG I have asked whether mention was made of nine activists because it seems from your viva voce evidence and your application is that the information that was conveyed to you, the fact that there were nine activists? MR GOUWS That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Do you have knowledge of their names or particulars or any other information regarding them? MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG You don't have knowledge of a Victor Sithole? MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why would he have knowledge of Victor Sithole, of what relevance is he in these proceedings? MR VAN DEN BERG Victor Sithole is a person who alleges that he was part of this group and that on that particular evening he was somewhere else except in this specific place. Do you have any knowledge of that? MR GOUWS Not at all, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG I have no further questions, Madam Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van den Berg. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions to put to Mr Gouws? MS LOCKHAT Just one question, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I'll hold onto the one question. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Yes, Chairperson. Mr Gouws, can you just comment on the issue as to whether you were acting beyond the course and scope of your duties as a policeman. MR GOUWS This was work that had to be done, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT Can you comment on the fact that you were also friends of Hechter and therefore you entered into this operation? MR GOUWS I was friends with Captain Hechter, but the work that we had to do was necessary for me. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Mr de Jager, do you have any questions to put to Mr Gouws? ADV DE JAGER No questions. CHAIRPERSON I have no questions to put to you, Mr Gouws. Mr Lax? MR LAX No questions. CHAIRPERSON You are excused, Sir. MR GOUWS Thank you. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Madam Chair, that concludes the evidence for the applicants that I appear on behalf of, Madam Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED