amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-14 PRETORIA 7 WILLIAM CLAAS CECIL SMITH AM5469/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53265&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990414pt.htm MR VISSER Chairperson, if you want to adjourn early, now is the time, it's seven minutes to four. CHAIRPERSON We'll proceed with the applications who you represent Mr Visser. MR VISSER Chairperson, I may mention that my client Mr Smith is available and I don't have any further - I have two witnesses to go but they're not presently available. ADV DE JAGER It looks as if there is somebody who is putting on a tie at the back and it would appear that he wants to give evidence. MR VISSER Perhaps Mr Marais who has just arrived here from the Little Karoo and he has been travelling since 7 o'clock this morning, he cannot give evidence because his evidence and his statement have not yet been cleared with him. That will only be done this evening so he might as well take the tie off. CHAIRPERSON You did indicate before we commenced of the problem that you had with Mr Marais, he hasn't deposed to the affidavit that we intend to hand up. We will then proceed with the applicant Mr Smith who is being represented by Mr Du Plessis. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson. WILLIAM CLAAS CECIL SMITH (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, you will find his application in bundle 11 from page 38. Mr Smith, will you please page to page 78? Page 38. Chairperson, it doesn't seem that Mr Smith has the copies of the pages that I want to refer him to. Oh sorry, he has got it. Mr Smith, could you please look at page 38, your personal particulars are given there as well as your background. On page 44 we have your general background as well as your political motive right up until the end of page 62. Do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR SMITH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And you have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses and persons who were commanders during the relevant incident. Do you confirm the evidence with regard to your political motive? MR SMITH I confirm that. MR DU PLESSIS Your evidence is on page 64 of the bundle where you begin with the nature and particulars and I would just like to take you through this very briefly. In paragraph 1 you say that you were stationed at the Thabazimbi security branch. What was your rank at that stage? MR SMITH I was a Warrant Officer. MR DU PLESSIS And you were under the command of Colonel Venter? MR SMITH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And you were called in to assist with an operation, you went to a determined place and you found members of the security branch there and you were under the command of Wickus Loots? MR SMITH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS The following paragraph, would you please read this to the Committee? MR SMITH: " At late afternoon the senior members decided that an ambush would be set for the insurgents. All the present members were given specific tasks in relation to the ambush for example to cordon off the roads in the immediate vicinity and to form part of the ambush itself which would be set up at the T-junction. I was part of the latter mentioned group." MR DU PLESSIS Did you have contact with the other applicants who have given evidence here before you compiled this version of yours? MR SMITH No I didn't. MR DU PLESSIS And you have heard evidence here today regarding the practice run which took place during the preparation for the events. Can you recall that? MR SMITH Yes I recall that. MR DU PLESSIS Is this in line with the evidence which has been given about it before the Committee by the other witnesses? MR SMITH Yes that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And then you say that you and the other members were armed with official firearms, you said that you had an R1 gun and that you were under the command of Lieutenant Venter and that you had to take position in the main road into which the vehicle would turn? MR SMITH Initially we were positioned on both sides of the road and then we moved over to one side. MR DU PLESSIS You say that the information came through that the terrorists would be armed, was it specifically that they were armed or that they would be armed? MR SMITH No, the information which was given was that the terrorists were armed. MR DU PLESSIS And then you say that there would be an attempt to apprehend the group and to arrest them but if they should resist fire would be opened on the vehicle? MR SMITH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Could we just pause there for a moment? Evidence has been given by other applicants in the matter that at a given stage a change of plan took place and that certain of the other persons who have given evidence here stated that it would have been dangerous to attempt to arrest the persons. You've heard that evidence? MR SMITH I have. MR DU PLESSIS Will you tell the Committee what your approach was with regard to that evidence? MR SMITH It is as it was put to the Committee this morning, the plan was amended to the effect that fire would be opened immediately on the vehicle as soon as the light of the generator was switched on. MR DU PLESSIS The reason why I'm asking you is because you don't state it pertinently on the final paragraph of page 64 that the plan was indeed changed. Is this something which has peaked your recollection during the course of the day? MR SMITH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS You said that the order to fire would be given by one of the senior members on the scene ...[intervention]. CHAIRPERSON May I interpose there Mr Du Plessis, before you proceed further? Were you present when the other members of the police registered their objection to the plan? MR SMITH I was. CHAIRPERSON And were you present when they gave reasons why they objected to the plan and gave the basic and primary reason that it posed inherent dangers to their lives? MR SMITH That is correct, I was present and that was one of the reasons why it was too dangerous to arrest them. CHAIRPERSON Did that apply to you? MR SMITH It did. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson. You say at the top of page 65 that you do not recall who would have given the order. Can you read the next paragraph before the Committee, the second paragraph on page 65? MR SMITH:"An obstacle was placed in the road and a generator was set up which would provide the light which was necessary for the arrest because it was already beginning to get dark. It was late and already dark when the vehicle approached the ambush. The members took in their positions as allocated to them and the generator lights were switched on when the vehicle approached the obstacle. The vehicle stopped suddenly and I heard someone shout the command "fire". I cannot recall exactly who it was but it must have been one of the senior members in command. All the members including myself began to fire at the vehicle." MR DU PLESSIS Very well, can you just pause there, can you recall specifically that someone called out "fire"? You recall that specifically? MR SMITH I recall that it would have been that way, I cannot say specifically that there was such a command perhaps as the lights were switched on, the command to fire was issued. MR DU PLESSIS You say that you fired at the front of the vehicle and that you fired between 15 and 20 rounds? MR SMITH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS After the command to cease fire had been shouted out, you moved closer and you saw that the vehicle had been hit in the crossfire and that all three passengers had been killed? MR SMITH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Did you do any other inspection or closer inspection of the vehicle? MR SMITH I myself did not move closer, there was the problem that the area surrounding the vehicle was dangerous. Later I heard about the pistols and the hand grenades which were found in the vehicle and I later saw a photo which was in the post-mortem dossier in which the weapons were clearly visible. MR DU PLESSIS Can you remember anything about an AK47? MR SMITH No. MR DU PLESSIS On page 66 you say that the scene was examined and cleared by other members of the security branch and that you were no involved in that. You say that you then departed? MR SMITH Yes that is correct. The other members who helped with the cordoning off of the road were taken away by me. MR DU PLESSIS You say that you do not know or you did not have any knowledge that weapons would be planted on the bodies. Under whose command were you? MR SMITH I was under the command of Venter who was the branch commander. MR DU PLESSIS Did you have any choice in your execution of duties? MR SMITH No, I would have obeyed orders. MR DU PLESSIS Did you have any financial gain from these events? MR SMITH No. MR DU PLESSIS Can you please turn to page 68? To page 70. You give a further explanation of your political motivation, do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR SMITH Yes I do. MR DU PLESSIS I have no further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr du Plessis. Before I give an opportunity to Mr Visser, I just wanted to clear one issue. In your viva voce and in your written application you have continuously referred to the fact that you were under the command of Lieutenant Venter? MR SMITH Chairperson that's correct, Venter was my immediate branch commander. At the scene I was under the command of the senior officer there who would be Brigadier Loots. CHAIRPERSON But that is not suggested by what is contained in your original application or what you've just stated in your viva voce? MR SMITH My immediate commander, I was stationed at Thabazimbi, my immediate commander was Colonel Venter. At the scene, if I took part in an operation with other members I would be under command of the senior member at the scene the same as Colonel Venter would be under the command of the Brigadier. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Visser do you have any questions to put? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. I want to join up with what the Honourable Chairperson has asked you and you have cleared up that at the scene you and other officers would come under the command of the most senior officer, is that your evidence? The question I would like to ask is as to what you have said on page 64 that you were under the command of Colonel Wickus Loots. Now we know that the then Colonel Steyn was the divisional Commissioner of the Western Transvaal and at some stage he was at the scene for a short while when you were under the command of Wickus Loots. To which stage do you refer? MR SMITH Chairperson, that would be in the absence of the General. MR VISSER I just wanted to get clarity as to that and where you refer in your amnesty application to a ambush and that initially the idea was to ambush these persons and murder them or did you mean anything else? MR SMITH I would say that an ambush would be an obstacle. MR VISSER Would you say that you mean by ambush you mean a roadblock? MR SMITH Yes an obstacle, a roadblock. MR VISSER To cut a long story short Mr Smith, please tell me if I'm incorrect but I make the inference that after your memory has been refreshed, you agree with whatever the other applicants have said here today? MR SMITH That is correct, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Smith, flowing from what has been put to you by Mr Visser and my initial enquiry which is just causing me some problems, in your application specifically at paragraph 35 and the second paragraph from the bottom. If one reads that paragraph ...[intervention] MR VISSER Chairperson, which paragraph are you referring to, I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON I'm referring to the second paragraph from the bottom. ADV DE JAGER Page 35 of your application. CHAIRPERSON That would be page 64, paragraph 35. Oh no, I think yes it is paragraph 35. MR LAX 9a(iv) is the paragraph. CHAIRPERSON The second paragraph from the bottom. CHAIRPERSON Correct. Do you see that? MR LAX I starts with the words "ek en die ander lede was bewapen", do you see where that? MR SMITH I see that. CHAIRPERSON Yes now if one reads what is contained in that paragraph, one gets an impression that you were put in command, I mean you were put under the command of Lieutenant Venter at the scene where the operation was planned. Do you read it the way I do, if not can you give us an explanation? MR SMITH Chairperson, the easiest manner to explain this is I think where I say I was under the command of Lieutenant Venter and I was told to take a position in the road where the vehicle would turn meaning that I took up a position with Lieutenant Venter in the roadblock itself, the position was next to Lieutenant Venter. CHAIRPERSON So that does no - you did not want to suggest that you were under his command? MR SMITH No, I was placed next to him, everyone of us was pointed out to positions where I was placed, where Lieutenant Venter was placed as well, he was next to me and therefore he was my senior. CHAIRPERSON And who put you with Lieutenant Venter, do you remember the name of the official who suggested that you must be with him? MR SMITH No Chairperson, I don't recall but it was part of the preparations made at the scene, I cannot recall specifically who said who must stand where, it was just part of the preparations. CHAIRPERSON But with your better recollection now, you are almost positive if not ...[indistinct] sure that the person who was in command of this operation was Captain Loots? MR SMITH Chairperson, Brigadier Loots, he was the senior officer at the scene at that time. CHAIRPERSON And that we should read what appears on the same page and that's the second paragraph from the top. That even though Captain Loots was in command of seven officials as that is suggested by that paragraph, he was appointed commander of that operation by General Steyn. You would agree with that evidence? MR SMITH I agree Chairperson, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKAT No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused Mr Smith. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I want to believe Mr du Plessis that there wouldn't have been anything for you to re-examine on? MR DU PLESSIS No there was nothing that I wanted to ask, Chairperson. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is that all for today? MR VISSER From our side Chairperson yes. CHAIRPERSON We'll then adjourn and reconvene tomorrow at 9.30. Can I also, Ms Lockhat, suggest that Mr Thabede be advised to be here at about 10.30 instead of 9.30. MS LOCKAT I've done that Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON May I find out from the legal representatives involved in this matter whether they will be in a position to address us immediately after concluding evidence in respect of this incident? MR VISSER Chairperson, Visser on record, if you're not going to expect anything in writing? CHAIRPERSON No, we don't want anything in writing. MR VISSER Then clearly there's no problem with addressing you. CHAIRPERSON We would appreciate that. ADV DE JAGER I think you've already furnished us with that. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON We don't think it's a matter that would require reading heads, we would think it's sufficient for you to give us oral argument. MS LOCKAT Chairperson, just one other issue, I just want to place on record that in connection with the victims relating to this matter I've furnished our investigative unit Fanie Malapo here in Johannesburg with the information that we obtained and I've enquired and instructed them to make the necessary enquiries relating to the victims in this matter, Chairperson, and he will get back to me tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Did you convey the urgency of the matter? MS LOCKAT I have indeed Chairperson and his instructions were that he'll get back to me tomorrow on this issue so that he can investigate it. CHAIRPERSON Did you convey the dissatisfaction expressed by the Committee in which this investigation was conducted? MS LOCKAT I have indeed Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR VISSER Chairperson, before you rise on a matter of information it would be helpful to know how you see the programme for tomorrow. You gave instructions that someone else, I didn't hear who it was has to be here at 10.30. Is there going to be an application interposed after the Silent Valley matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, after you've presented your argument. MR VISSER Oh, after presenting it and you that's going to be finished by half past ten? CHAIRPERSON Well I'm being very optimistic Mr Visser, if one does become optimistic. MR VISSER We can probably accommodate you. CHAIRPERSON Yes I think what I wanted to convey across is not to have Mr Thabede here at 9.30. MR VISSER To listen to our argument. CHAIRPERSON To listen to your argument which I am saying would not find interesting but to rather have him here safely at 10.30. MR VISSER Yes. Yes. CHAIRPERSON If your argument obviously proceeds until lunch time then that will be so. MR VISSER So be it, yes. As far as the McKenzie squad is concerned, would it be prudent to warn them to be hear by lunch time? It would seem to be a reasonable estimate? CHAIRPERSON I would like to believe that if you are able to conclude your argument by tea time, the Thabede matter is capable of being concluded by lunch time. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON It really would depend on when you conclude your argument. MR VISSER Yes, which again in turn would depend on when we finish with the two witnesses although they're the last two and really they should go very briefly. CHAIRPERSON We are completely in your hands. MR VISSER Yes but we might set our sights on 11 o'clock, yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I think lunch time probably would be more ...[intervention] MR VISSER I can tell now I'm going to have very little to say to you in argument. You've heard the evidence and really I'm not going to repeat it. CHAIRPERSON I wish I could believe that Mr Visser. MR VISSER Well, we'll see what happened tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS