amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-04-15 IDASA CENTRE, PRETORIA 8 GIDEON JACOBUS VAN ZYL AM 4372/96 MURDER OF KRUSCHEV, MARX & MOATSHE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53266&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990415pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, have you been able to establish the whereabouts of the victims, relatives? MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, we've been very fortunate that we have located the relatives of the deceased which was Carl Marx and Kruschev. Their names were Schoeman Ramokgopa. He was Carl Marx. And Solomon Mlonsi, who is Kruschev. We have here Norman Ramokgopa, the brother of Carl Marx and Daphne Makubela, the sister of Carl Marx. We have the mother, Phuleng Joyce Swartbooi, the mother of Kruschev. CHAIRPERSON Phuleng who, Swartbooi? MS LOCKHAT Joyce Swartbooi. Chairperson, this morning I have spoken to the relevant victims. I've explained the incident to them and I've explained who the applicants are. I've explained to them that there's one more applicant in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Two. MS LOCKHAT Two, that is correct. Thank you, Chairperson. And I've explained their rights to them, and Chairperson, they've given me instructions to represent them. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS LOCKHAT The issues on which we'll basically represent them is the issue of full disclosure, in a sense. So that's basically it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What I'm going to say will be addressed to Norman Ramokgopa, Daphne Makubela, Phuleng Swartbooi. On behalf of the Amnesty Committee, we wish to welcome you to these proceedings and tender our humble apologies for not having facilitated your attendance to these hearings much earlier. Eight policemen have come forward to accept responsibility for the killing of your loved ones. I have already been advised by our Evidence Leader, Ms Lockhat, that the basis on which these applications have been made have been explained to you. This Committee is charged with a duty of hearing evidence from persons who confess to having committed offences such as these policemen have done. In terms of our Act, you as the relatives of the deceased must be informed of the date, the place and the fact of the hearing. In your case unfortunately, we did not do so because our Investigative Unit did not or could not trace your whereabouts timeously. This Committee was told that your whereabouts are unknown, so we proceeded to hear these applications on the basis of that information. We were only given this information through the assistance of Mr Visser, who is representing the eight policemen. That is how we came to know of where you are staying. And upon finding our about your whereabouts we made all attempts to facilitate your attendance here. You will now be given an opportunity to be part of these proceedings, even though we have now come to a tail end. You will nevertheless be in a position to hear the evidence of the two remaining applicants, who also are confessing to the killing of your loved ones. This we hope will go a long way, not so much in assuaging your pain of having lost your loved ones, but in better equipping you to deal with your pain, with a view to taking those difficult but necessary steps towards healing, strengthened by the fact that you at last know what you have always known but could not prove, about who killed your loved ones, why and how they were killed. You at least have now today seen with your very own eyes those who are confessing to having committed this gruesome act. You at last can be in a position to go to the exact spot. They've been kind enough to give us details of this nature, of where your sons' souls were unfortunately taken and at last you can through your traditional rituals, bring their souls back to your homes and at last you may now be comforted that their souls by this act, will rest in peace. The process we are dealing with is about uncovering the truth about our painful past and it is hoped in so doing we can add more pillar to the bridge that has already been built to bring our previously divided society together, so that we as South Africans can at last be reconciled with one another. We will now proceed to hear the application of Mr van Zyl I presume, Mr Visser? And we hope that through the evidence that we'll hear from Mr van Zyl, even though you were not here previously, you will be put in a better picture than you've been before about this incident involving your loved ones. I thank you. Mr Visser? MR VISSER May it please you, Madam Chairperson. Perhaps three aspects in regard to what you have said, and particularly from the point of view of the victims. Perhaps they might be informed of the fact that the inquest was held in Thabazimbi, and we've got the inquest case numbers 1, 2 and 3 of 1983. They might be able to trace, if they don't know already, and I don't know what the facts are, but if they don't know where the bodies of the two victims are, where they were buried, you have heard that normally in such cases, those people were buried in paupers' graves. We know that as part of the history of this country. But they could possibly trace it through the Investigative Unit, through Thabazimbi Magistrate's Court, on those serial numbers and they might be able to establish where their loved ones were buried, if they don't know so yet. Because we don't know whether they may have received them, although it's doubtful. That's the one point. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm advised that our Investigative Unit, at least insofar as that is concerned, they have attended to it and the exhumations will be carried out in due course. MR VISSER They've actually found the graves? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER Oh well that's wonderful. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER Chairperson, the other thing is, as far as the victims' families are concerned, Ms Lockhat informed me that they are not opposing the application, they are basically leaving it in the discretion of the Committee. Perhaps Ms Lockhat can just confirm that. MS LOCKHAT That is indeed correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And lastly, Chairperson, and I mention this because I will follow your lead in this regard, the two witnesses who are now going to testify really had nothing to do with the whole thing except that they were present and participated. It might be appropriate for me, when I address you in argument, just to give a brief summary of the facts in general so that the relations can hear what the evidence has been before you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may do so at an appropriate stage. MR VISSER Thank you. ADV DE JAGER I believe Ms Lockhat has also already explained to them to a large extent. MR VISSER Perhaps I should put it this say, that I offer my assistance in case it's needed in that regard. CHAIRPERSON We appreciate that, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON But Ms Lockhat will be in a position to give us a better indication. We will allow Mr van Zyl to give evidence to the extent that his participation is material and at least the victims will hear, even if he had a minimal role to play, at least they are part of the proceedings. MR VISSER Yes. With your leave we then call Superintendent van Zyl. ADV DE JAGER Your full names please. GIDEON JACOBUS VAN ZYL (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR VISSER Exhibit K. CHAIRPERSON I'm trying to find my van Zyl affidavit. MR VISSER Yes, it's Exhibit K. In bundle 11, it's page 7 to 14. The actual incident is dealt with at page 8, very briefly. Mr van Zyl basically referred to du Preez Smit, whom you're already heard. Mr van Zyl, ...(intervention) COMMITTEE AND COUNSEL DISCUSS EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER If I then may proceed, Chairperson. Mr van Zyl, you are an applicant in this matter which involves the Silent Valley incident, wherein three persons were killed, is that correct? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER You have compiled an affidavit which you request to be incorporated with your evidence, that is Exhibit K which has been served before the Committee, and from page 1 until 21 of Exhibit K, you have not only provided your personal circumstances and police career details, but as well as details of your personal background, the struggle of the past, your political motivations and so forth, as well as on page 26 to 28, do you confirm this insofar as your knowledge goes, that this is true and correct with regard to the content of those pages and paragraphs? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Mr van Zyl, if we could just get to page 22, there you deal with the Silent Valley incident. Just before we proceed with the facts of the matter, you informed me that at a stage you left the police and later rejoined, how long before this incident did you rejoin the police? MR VAN ZYL Two days. MR VISSER So you had been back with the police for two days when this incident occurred, and what was your rank? MR VAN ZYL I was a Sergeant. MR VISSER What were you doing, according to your recollection, on the 4th of May 1983? MR VAN ZYL As far as I can recall, Chairperson, Nieuwenhuis and Marais and I at that stage were together I think. We were in the process of investigating an infiltration of another group and we were in the vicinity to monitor that. MR VISSER To monitor that? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Was this the PAC group which has been mentioned earlier? MR VAN ZYL Yes. MR VISSER And what happened while you were busy with your monitoring? MR VAN ZYL We received an order that we were to go to this point where the incident took place at Silent Valley. We were to move in the direction of Silent Valley where we would meet the rest of the people. MR VISSER Yes, and in paragraph 69 on page 23, you say that you went with numerous members of the Security Branch. We will not discuss the scene once again, but you state there that there was a steel gate which closed part of the road and that you closed off the rest of the road with branches and stones and that was done in order to apprehend the vehicle. MR VAN ZYL Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER What was your order at that stage? MR VAN ZYL At that stage, General Steyn was still on the scene and his order was that we were to attempt to arrest three ANC infiltrators. MR VISSER Is that all which was said to you with regard to the three persons who were coming in? MR VAN ZYL That is the only knowledge which I had. MR VISSER In your affidavit, in paragraph 72, according to your recollection you have mentioned the names of certain people that you can recall being there. You know that there were numerous other members and we know who they were, so we don't have to pause there. MR VAN ZYL I agree with you. MR VISSER Did Colonel Steyn, or presently General Steyn remain at the scene all the time? MR VAN ZYL As far as my recollection goes after the decision was taken that we were to attempt to arrest the insurgents, he left the scene. MR VISSER So he left the scene. And you knew, as you say in paragraph 73, that these would be armed MK members? MR VAN ZYL That is what was conveyed to us. MR VISSER And in 74 you state that your information was that they would jump over the fence. That is an expression which was used to indicate that they would cross the border illegally at another place than the border post. MR VAN ZYL Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER And that they would then be transported in a red Toyota bakkie. MR VAN ZYL That's correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well. If we can go to page 24. In 76 you explain the order and that you would be in two groups on both sides of the road or the gate, that would be west and east according Steyn's instructions? - paragraph 76. MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER And that he then departed as you've already stated. Who was the person who then assumed command on the grounds of seniority at the scene after Steyn had left? MR VAN ZYL Brigadier Loots, Chairperson. MR VISSER What did you do then, can you just tell us in your own words? MR VAN ZYL We attempted to simulate the arrest by creating a simulation of how we would attempt to arrest these persons. As far as I know, Sakkie Marais, who was the furthest away from me on the driver's side of the vehicle was to confront the persons at the door. Danie Nieuwenhuis would be on the opposite side of him on the other side, on the passenger's side. Sakkie Marais I think would have been on the passenger's side and Danie Nieuwenhuis on the driver's side. My instruction was to jump on the back of the bakkie when it came to a pause and the passengers of these vehicles were to be arrested. MR VISSER And then you practised it, you jumped on the back of the bakkie? MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER And what did you realise? MR VAN ZYL I had an essential problem with my own position as well as Marais' position. Should the passengers have opened fire or used a hand-grenade during the incident, Marais and I would have been in the direct line of fire from where the rest of the group were. MR VISSER And with the two groups on either side of the road, if they had opened fire, what would have happened then? MR VAN ZYL We would have shot at each other. MR VISSER Did you voice your protest? MR VAN ZYL Yes, I did, I objected. MR VISSER To whom did you object? MR VAN ZYL To Brigadier Loots. MR VISSER We know that discussions were then held between Brigadier Loots and Colonel Crause and Colonel Venter and Mr du Preez Smit as a result of this practise run and it was decided that this plan wouldn't work because it was too dangerous and that Brigadier Loots then gave the order that the passengers were to be killed as soon as they stopped at the roadblock and that they were no longer to be arrested. MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER What was your personal sentiment about this change or order? MR VAN ZYL In my heart I was grateful because I knew immediately that this would give me the opportunity to spare my life. MR VISSER Yes. And at the scene, in paragraph 81, you say that there was a generator and there were people who were manning the generator and the idea was that as soon as the bakkie would arrive there, because it would be dark by then, not so? MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER The generator would be switched on and that the lights would light up the whole area. MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER And did it happen like that? MR VAN ZYL Yes, it did. MR VISSER And when the bakkie stopped, what happened? MR VAN ZYL We fired at them. MR VISSER I've omitted to ask you that when it was decided that the arrest would not take place the one group was moved over to the other side of the road? MR VAN ZYL That is correct, all of us were positioned on my right side of the road. MR VISSER That would be on the driver's side of the road, on the western side? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER Fire was opened on the bakkie, did you yourself fire any shots? MR VAN ZYL Yes, I did. MR VISSER Can you say how many shots you fired? MR VAN ZYL I'm not 100% certain. MR VISSER Yes. And you may have hit some of the passengers? MR VAN ZYL Yes. MR VISSER Just to explain, all of you were on the driver's side of the bakkie as it stopped? MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER So in other words you would have to shoot past the driver in order to hit the passengers? ADV DE JAGER Mr Visser, wasn't there also evidence that people stood in front of the bakkie in the road? MR VISSER I'm speaking of this witness. I beg your pardon. Perhaps you can recall, who was on the right-hand side of the bakkie with you? If you cannot recall just say so. MR VAN ZYL I think the persons whose names I've mentioned in my affidavit are the people that I recall prominently. MR VISSER That would be Nieuwenhuis and Marais? MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER And when you were firing and attempting to hit the passengers, could you do this without hitting the driver? MR VAN ZYL That would have been very difficult. MR VISSER Why didn't you take up position on the other side of the bend? Why did you assume your actual position? MR VAN ZYL If my memory does not fail me, I think that was the part where the gate was. They had to stop at the gate and that was the closest that we could get to them. MR VISSER And that was on the inside of the bend? MR VAN ZYL Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER After the scene what did you do directly after the shooting stopped? MR VAN ZYL I received an order, I can't remember precisely from whom, but the order was to withdraw. I walked in the direction of the generator where we were to wait until the explosives or demolitions experts declared the scene safe and had cleared the scene. MR VISSER Before you moved away from the scene, did you look into the bakkie to see whether or not it was safe or whether the passengers had been killed? MR VAN ZYL I cannot recall that. I saw that there were many holes in the vehicle and that is all that I saw. MR VISSER As you've said in paragraph 84, that you did not investigate the presence of weapons or explosives in the bakkie. MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER Do you know of any instructions to you or anybody else to take Russian weapons to the scene to plant on these people? MR VAN ZYL No, I have no knowledge of such an instruction. MR VISSER Did you yourself with your own eyes see any AK47s at the scene? MR VAN ZYL No, I didn't. MR VISSER We know that the bodies were later identified and we have been fortunate enough to have the next-of-kin of the MK members here today and we know that you later heard that there was a Botswana citizen whose name was Andries Moatshe. MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER Were you aware of the fact, or were you aware of Andries Moatshe, of who he was, whether he was an informer for the Security Branch of the Western Transvaal? MR VAN ZYL Negative. MR VISSER What was your knowledge which you later gained regarding this Moatshe person? MR VAN ZYL I understood that he was a double-agent. MR VISSER You say that he was a collaborator and conspirator? MR VAN ZYL That's correct. MR VISSER That is the evidence-in-chief, thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions to put to this witness? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Lockhat? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT I just have one question. Mr van Zyl, you said you received an order to go to the incident, who gave you these orders? MR VAN ZYL Chairperson, if I recall correctly I think I received the message from Colonel Crause. MS LOCKHAT Can you just explain to us what he said to you? MR VAN ZYL As far as I know at that stage, as I've mentioned at the beginning of my evidence, I was with Nieuwenhuis and Marais and he simply informed us that we were to go in the direction of Silent Valley and that they would meet us there. MS LOCKHAT So you were basically informed of your participation at the incident, at that place? MR VAN ZYL That is entirely correct. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused, Mr van Zyl. MR VAN ZYL Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED