amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-21 PRETORIA 9 PHILIP RUDOLPH CRAUSE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53272&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99040622_pre_990421pt.htm ADV DE JAGER Your full names please? PHILIP RUDOLPH CRAUSE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Chairperson, Exhibit A will now also be necessary. We have one copy apparently available if you don't have your copies with you. Mr Crause, you've testified earlier in front of this Committee, is that correct? COL CRAUSE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You have Exhibit A as your evidence, handed in, and you have confirmed it as correct. Could you please page to page 33 of Exhibit A. COL CRAUSE Yes, I have the page. MR VISSER Could you perhaps just say what you know of this McKenzie operation, Colonel. MR CRAUSE That is paragraph 103, Chairperson. During March/April '87 with Loots I had a meeting at Pienaarsrivier. I just want to put it correctly, I wasn't quite sure at which river, but it must have been the Hennops Pride River. MR VISSER So it's the Hennops River? MR CRAUSE Hennops River. That was at Pretoria. During this meeting the following people were present, it was myself, Brigadier Cronje, Colonel Loots, Goosen, Momberg and possibly other people. MR VISSER Well we know that Commandant Charl Naude was also present. MR CRAUSE I just omitted him. We were informed that McKenzie had been bringing weapons and ammunition for the ANC from Botswana and McKenzie was requested by Lester Dumakude to take or get weapons in Botswana over the Easter weekend to transport that to South Africa ...(intervention) MR VISSER Just to put that in the right perspective, I think the evidence of Mr Momberg was that it wasn't said over the telephone, but that was the inference that was made. MR CRAUSE Yes, that is correct, that is how I understood it. It was planned to use this false compartment which was built into McKenzie's vehicle for the transportation of weapons so that they would then be killed or could then be killed by this compartment, or the bomb there. It was discussed that an operative of Special Forces, stationed in Botswana, would activate the bomb after the MK took the vehicle from McKenzie. McKenzie was introduced to us at some stage. He was informed - that was what was told to me, I was not personally present, that the plan was to have a tracking device built into his kombi and apparently he was not opposed to that. Colonel Loots and myself saw McKenzie's kombi when it went to Kopfontein border post when it left South Africa. MR VISSER Now what you have forgotten and what you now remember, you had a specific task, can you remember what that was? MR CRAUSE Yes, that is correct. The members who did the search at that stage were under my control. I was staff officer in Potchefstroom and I prevented them to search the vehicle and I also kept the dogs away from the vehicle. MR VISSER There is evidence of Mr Momberg and Goosen that McKenzie was not aware of the explosive device in his kombi and you have no reason to contest that? MR CRAUSE No. MR VISSER And you also later heard of the explosion and that people had been killed? MR CRAUSE Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER And you received your instructions from - from whom did you receive your, or on whose instruction did you act? MR CRAUSE That was Brigadier Cronje and Brigadier Loots. MR VISSER So in paragraph 114 you want to add Brigadier Loots, Brigadier Cronje and Loots as well? MR CRAUSE That's correct. MR VISSER Did you anticipate that things could perhaps possibly go awry and that other people besides ANC people or supporters could be killed or injured? MR CRAUSE Yes, I did foresee that. MR VISSER Now in the light of the objective, the targets who had to be eliminated, did you accept that risk? MR CRAUSE Yes, I accepted that. MR VISSER And the result of that was that you now apply for amnesty in respect of the death and the damage of the property of the people in Botswana? MR CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER Did you reconcile yourself with the aim to kill Dumakude and Mnisi and Pule? MR CRAUSE Yes, I did. MR VISSER Why was that? MR CRAUSE They were all involved in Special Operations, they were responsible for the Church Street bomb as well as many other serious bomb attacks in the Republic of South Africa. MR VISSER And paragraph 16, can you perhaps just read that? MR CRAUSE Is that 116? MR VISSER Yes. MR CRAUSE "The problems that were caused countrywide because of the smuggling of weapons, ammunition and explosives in the RSA, killed many people, damaged lots of property. And in this regard I refer to the evidence of General van der Merwe and Colonel Loots." MR VISSER Now that is evidence that has already been led and it is also part of the argument with regard to the Nietverdiendt case. Chairperson, that is the evidence-in-chief, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, won't you enlighten us, we see that in paragraph 115 there is some mention of one, Lambert Moloi. MR VISSER Yes. Perhaps I have to ask you ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed to do so, no evidence has been led whatsoever about this by the other applicants. MR VISSER Yes, I believe, yes ... Perhaps I just have to ask you, in paragraph 115 you say that: "I agreed with the aim of the operation and that was to, in terms of the people from the MK of the ANC be eliminated, especially if they are well-known informers such as Dumakude, Mnisi, Pule and Lambert Moloi." Did you mean to say that that was the aim of this operation, that Lambert Moloi had to be targeted? MR CRAUSE No, the idea was that he would have been one of the targets even if it is in another operation, but he wasn't a target of this operation. MR VISSER So you here pay attention to the most important people acting in Botswana. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Now was the name of Lambert Moloi ever canvassed at the meeting that you attended? MR CRAUSE No, he was never discussed, I included it because he was also involved in the infiltration of people into the RSA and smuggling of weapons although it was not for Special Operations. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but when the planning of this operation took place at, you say Hennops Pride, is that a river? MR CRAUSE Hennops Pride, yes. CHAIRPERSON You initially said Pienaarsrivier. MR CRAUSE That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But you are willing to concede that it could have been at Hennops Pride? MR CRAUSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that a river, is Hennops Pride a river as well? MR CRAUSE I think it is a river, I don't really know the areas that well. CHAIRPERSON Because evidence was led that it was a picnic spot. MR CRAUSE It was a picnic spot, but they call it Hennops Pride. That is what I heard today. ADV DE JAGER The Hennops River is a river and there are various picnic spots along the river. Usually people go and have a picnic next to the river. MR CRAUSE Now I don't Pretoria that well, I accept that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but his name did not feature at all at that meeting that you've alluded to? MR CRAUSE No, it did not. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Alberts, do you have any questions? MR ALBERTS Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS This time I have no questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON For which we are grateful. Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT MR VISSER Chairperson, may I just, just to explain the name of Lambert Moloi, where it is and in that context. If you look at Exhibit A, page 15, paragraph 37.1, it really is a repetition of what was stated there, not to intend to say that Lambert Moloi was one of the targeted persons at that time, but it was in the context of what 37.1 says, where it says that "From time to time the following people played an active role ..." And Lambert Moloi was mentioned there and it was more in that sense, it wasn't to indicate that he was at all discussed or proposed as a target. CHAIRPERSON We have to blame you for that, Mr Visser, shouldn't we? MR VISSER And again my attorney has just point out ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, we have to blame you for that? MR VISSER Absolutely, you know I'm just getting so tired of apologising, but I must say, Chairperson, that in defence of myself, that it was a very short time and I had to type it myself, but it is clearly my fault. I'm sorry about that. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination to do on Mr Crause? MR VISSER No thank you, Chairperson. This came across badly, I meant to say, I didn't mean to say that I'm getting tired of apologising to you, I intended to say I'm sure you're getting tired of my apologies. So I didn't express that correctly. I didn't intend any offence. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Either way it's been well taken. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX Mr Crause, just one small point that worried me. In an effort to explain and almost in a sense to make your evidence fit in with the evidence already given you were asked a question about the nature of the information that had come to you about what McKenzie was going to do and a distinction was made which is different from what is in your affidavit here and the distinction was well, you people inferred that he was going to go and pick up arms. You personally didn't have any knowledge of the telephone conversation? MR CRAUSE That is correct. I think I mentioned that it was explained to me that that is what he was going to do, Chairperson. MR LAX I'm just not wanting the wrong impression to be created, that you had personal knowledge of that telephone. MR CRAUSE No, no. MR LAX You simply were told at the meeting that this is what they thought was going to happen and you accepted it as such? MR CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER That's paragraph 106 I think you're referring to? MR LAX Correct. MR VISSER Yes, he says apparently, yes. CHAIRPERSON I take it that Mr Visser wouldn't like to put any questions flowing from what Mr Lax has just stated to Mr Crause. MR VISSER Thank you, no, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Crause, you are excused. MR CRAUSE Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Well then we've finished in time, half a minute past four ... MACHINE SWITCHED OFF CHAIRPERSON Are we starting tomorrow with the evidence of General van der Merwe, Mr Visser, on the understanding that after completing his evidence we will be in a position to proceed to give argument? MR VISSER Yes, indeed, Chairperson. Argument from my side will be very brief in fact. CHAIRPERSON Is that the situation with Mr Alberts as well? You would be in a position to argue tomorrow? MR ALBERTS I will get myself ready to argue tomorrow, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'd appreciate if you could definitely get yourself ready to argue tomorrow. MR ALBERTS As it pleases you. CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis as well? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I'm going to be very short, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you don't have to indicate whether you're going to be short or not, as long as you are ready to argue. So we will then adjourn for today and reconvene tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. MS LOCKHAT Please stand. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS