amntrans T MVELASE: AM 4441 1999-04-12 JOHANNESBURG 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53275&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99041214_jhb_990412jh.htm MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairman, I would like to call the next applicant Mr M T Mvelase. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mvelase, what language would you prefer to use? MR MVELASE Zulu. T MVELASE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mvelase, you heard the evidence given today by Mr Sigudu, you also filled out an application for amnesty in December of 1996 for which you then want to apply for amnesty. Could you just start by very briefly telling this Commission what happened on that particular day of the incident. MR MVELASE On the 3rd of December it so happened that we went to rob and we killed unintentionally. MR CLAASSEN Mr Mvelase, you say that you went to rob, did you act on instruction from anyone? MR MVELASE Yes, we were following instructions that had come from Wiseman. MR CLAASSEN Mr Mvelase, are you a member of or affiliated with any political party? MR MVELASE Yes, that is correct. MR CLAASSEN Can you just explain which party and in which capacity. MR MVELASE I am a member of the IFP. MR CLAASSEN At the time of the commission of this offence were you a member of the IFP at that stage and what was your capacity then? MR MVELASE I was as I still am, a member of the IFP. MR CLAASSEN Were you a written-in card carrying member or just a supporter? MR MVELASE I did not have any position. MR CLAASSEN You also lived at that stage with Mr Sigudu in Dube Hostel, is that correct? MR MVELASE Yes, that is correct, we resided in the hostel but not in the same house, we were not sharing accommodation. MR CLAASSEN Mr Mvelase, you indicated that you received an instruction from a Mr Wiseman, did you know him prior to this incident, and in what capacity did you know him? MR MVELASE I knew Wiseman as a member occupying a position which I did not quite know well. He presented himself as somebody who had a position within the organisation. CHAIRPERSON When did he present himself in that fashion, on the day of the murder, or sometime before that or what? MR MVELASE It was before the murder. He used to attend all the meetings that we had, that is IFP meetings. He used to organise quite a lot. MR CLAASSEN Mr Mvelase, you have just indicated that you acted on an instruction given by this Mr Wiseman, could you just carefully explain to the court, to the Committee what this instruction entailed, what was decided? MR MVELASE The instruction was that we should go out and rob, the instruction was to go out and rob the money, which would in turn be used to further the aims of the IFP. MR CLAASSEN Mr Mvelase, this plan that you are referring to, or this instruction, was it a plan that was planned beforehand, there was a specific plan which was to be followed? MR MVELASE Yes, there was a plan. MR CLAASSEN And you knew beforehand what this plan entailed? MR MVELASE Yes, the plan was that we should go out and rob, get hold of some money to further the aims and meet the needs of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE The plan was that we should go and rob that lady of her money or the money, and bring the money back and hand this money over to Wiseman who would hand it over to others within the leadership, his co-leaders. CHAIRPERSON: A plan. When was this plan discussed? MR MVELASE If I still remember very well, it was at the end of the month, that is the end of the month of November, it could have been the 30th. CHAIRPERSON That was a few days before the actual incident? MR MVELASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So, in this discussion you knew that this particular lady was going to be the target? MR MVELASE Yes, that is when we learnt. CHAIRPERSON Did you know this lady before? MR MVELASE No. CHAIRPERSON How did you know which lady it would be? MR MVELASE We discussed this by way of planning, so that one of us, Sampson Manqele had to go to the place to sort of reconnoitre, and he came back to report to us and said we could then go. CHAIRPERSON Was that place not a place where Wiseman used to work? MR MVELASE MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mvelase, before you got to the point that Wiseman gave the instruction you said that it was to be done for a specific reason, what was this and why was this decided? MR MVELASE Would you please repeat the question. MR CLAASSEN Why did you want to go and rob this money? MR MVELASE The intention was to meet the needs of the IFP. ADV SIGODI So do you know who Wiseman was going to give the money to? MR MVELASE No. He is the one who knew. ADV SIGODI But did you not ask him? MR MVELASE On asking him, he indicated that he was going to pass it on to other leaders. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mvelase, this money was never given as you say it was intended, why not? MR MVELASE The reason is because we did not get the money as we intended, instead the money was left at the scene of the crime. DR TSOTSI Just a moment, excuse my interruption there. To whom was Wiseman going, to which leaders was he going to give this money, do you know? MR MVELASE He was to hand this money over to other leaders within the Dube Hostel. DR TSOTSI Who are they, I want to get their names. MR MVELASE The names include Mr Hlongwane, Ndlovo, and many others, some of whom have since passed away. ADV SIGODI Did Mr Kanyele tell you who had given him the orders, where he got his orders from? MR MVELASE No he did not say. ADV SIGODI And you did not see it necessary to ask him? MR MVELASE When he came up with this idea, I readily accepted because I wanted as well to meet the needs of the IFP. ADV SIGODI Did you know that the IFP had a military wing? MR MVELASE No, I did not know that. ADV SIGODI What reason did you have to follow the instructions of Mr Kanyele? MR MVELASE I perceived him as one of the members of the IFP, that is the reason I acted on his instructions. ADV SIGODI MR MVELASE Yes, he was a member, because he was an organiser, very active. ADV SIGODI But he had no authority over you, did he? MR MVELASE He did have authority as a member of the IFP. ADV SIGODI What would have happened to you if you had not listened to him? What would the organisation have done to you if you had not listened to Mr Kanyele? MR MVELASE ADV SIGODI MR MVELASE ADV SIGODI So at the time you did not think that the organisation knew about this so what reason did you have be believe that Mr Kanyele had authority over you? MR MVELASE I believed that he had authority because he was active as an organiser within the IFP, deeply involved with the IFP. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON How were you going to explain to the IFP where this money came from and this murder? MR MVELASE The one person who was to make the explanation was Wiseman himself. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE That is correct. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) MR MVELASE May the question please be repeated. CHAIRPERSON How were you going to explain to the IFP that you committed all these crimes in its name, for its benefit, but nonetheless against its policy? MR MVELASE I was going to apologise very strongly to the IFP because yes, it was not their policy that people be robbed. CHAIRPERSON So why embark on the robbery then, if you know the IFP is not going to like this? Why commit it? MR MVELASE It is because the needs of the IFP were such that I personally wanted to meet them such as donating when we were going to rallies and even in the event of the death of one of our members. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE I committed the crimes in the name of the IFP because I wanted to meet the needs of the IFP. CHAIRPERSON But you knew the IFP is not going to accept it, they would punish you, if nothing else. You knew that. MR MVELASE I was going to apologise very strongly to the IFP for violating their policies as much as I am apologising now. CHAIRPERSON Is that what you decided, you were going to do something against the policy of the IFP and you would apologise for it? Is that what you say? That was part of the plan, do I understand you correctly? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON Why was that lady killed? MR MVELASE She was killed by mistake, a mistake that was committed by Sampson Manqele. CHAIRPERSON Did you not have the intention to kill her? MR MVELASE No. CHAIRPERSON Yes? ADV SIGODI So, do you know how many arms or ammunition the IFP had at the hostel, did you have any knowledge about that? MR MVELASE No, I did not have that knowledge. ADV SIGODI Then why did you see the need to go and rob in order to get money to buy arms if you did not even know how many arms the IFP had in the hostel. MR MVELASE It was a way, or should I say I personally did not have a firearm, for example, a firearm which I could use in the event of a conflict breaking out. ADV SIGODI But you did not know how many arms that the IFP had, maybe the IFP had an abundance of arms. What reason did you have to believe that the IFP needed arms? MR MVELASE Others, or should I say some of the people who accompanied us to the robbery did not have firearms and that is one of the reasons that made me believe that there was a need for firearms. CHAIRPERSON But you took that decision to rob that lady before you saw the arms. MR MVELASE Would you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON You say that when you went on this venture to rob this lady, not all of you people had firearms. That was proof to you that there was a need to effect or do this robbery so that you could buy more arms. You recall saying so? MR MVELASE No, that is not so. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE I am saying that most of the members of the IFP did not have firearms, that is why I am saying that I cannot testify as to the amount of firearms that the IFP had. CHAIRPERSON Did you or did you not testify that the day you committed this robbery not all the participants in the robbery were armed, do you recall saying so? MR MVELASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE I am saying some did not have firearms. CHAIRPERSON Do you recall saying that the fact that not all had firearms showed you that not all IFP members had firearms and that you required more firearms. Did you not say so? MR MVELASE Please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE You see, the majority of IFP people did not have firearms that I would have been able to see whether they had many or less, so I had no idea of that. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chairperson, just a further matter. Mr Mvelase, can you just very, very briefly, what exactly did you do when the deceased was killed, what was your role in all this? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON Did I understand you correctly that you were also armed at that time? MR MVELASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE MR CLAASSEN Mr Chair, if I may, I believe if I understood the applicant correctly he said that "Some of the people in our company was not ..." I also understood it that he never said that he himself was not armed, but he said: "I noticed that some of the people accompanying us was not armed" ... maybe specifically implying that he was indeed armed. Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Mvelase, is there anything else you could have done in that particular situation? MR MVELASE One possibility - oh yes, there was something I could have done. MR CLAASSEN What do you mean by that? MR MVELASE I could have got myself temporary jobs and worked part time, get a wage for the day, something like that. That could have been one other way but that was not quite clear. DR TSOTSI Mr Mvelase, do I understand you to say that you were the first to pull out your gun and point at this white man? MR MVELASE Yes. DR TSOTSI So, and the others followed, the others then also pulled out their firearms? MR MVELASE Sampson was the next one. DR TSOTSI Yes, and you actually saw Sampson pointing his firearm at the woman, is that right? MR MVELASE Yes that is correct. DR TSOTSI MR MVELASE DR TSOTSI MR MVELASE DR TSOTSI MR MVELASE I was shocked and suddenly I heard this gunshot and he had already shot at the woman. And I must highlight the fact that that was not part of the plan or the intention, we did not have that intention to kill. ADV SIGODI Where was Mr Kanyele on this day? MR MVELASE We had left him at Dube. ADV SIGODI In other words, he comes up with the idea and plan and then when you actually go to do the robbery he is not there. MR MVELASE He had already indicated to us and showed us Sampson Manqele, that is why he did not have to be present. ADV SIGODI MR MVELASE I have no idea why. MR CLAASSEN Mr Mvelase, did you stand to gain anything personally from what you attempted that particular day? MR MVELASE Wiseman would have been the one to administer that as to whether I benefit from this or not, it lay entirely in his discretion, but how he was to further the mission. MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen, I want to ask him certain questions about a letter to be found on page 31 of the bundle. I think it only fair that I draw your attention to that. MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON So you are aware of the letter? Okay. Do you, or did you live at the time in the Province of Gauteng, as it is known now? MR MVELASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Mr Katha Ndlovo? He is the secretary, the Provincial Youth Secretary of the IFP? MR MVELASE Yes, I know him. CHAIRPERSON Does he know you? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON Do you know Mr Peter Magwasa, IFP Regional Office? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON Were you a card-carrying member of the IFP? MR MVELASE I did not have a card. CHAIRPERSON Then how did you obtain membership? ADV SIGODI Were you a card-carrying member of the IFP? MR MVELASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you still a card-carrying member of the IFP? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON Are you still a card-carrying member of the IFP? MR MVELASE ADV SIGODI Tell me, how was your target identified when you were planning this? How did you identify your target? MR MVELASE The person who was enlightened about the place we were going to was Sampson Manqele, he was the one who had a better understanding of this whole matter. ADV SIGODI Yes, but who had the inside information as to who would be carrying the money and from where, at what time and all that, who brought that information to you? MR MVELASE Wiseman Kanyele had that information. ADV SIGODI So what did he tell you about this lady? MR MVELASE He told us that this lady often goes to the bank to fetch some money. ADV SIGODI Did he say where she worked? MR MVELASE Yes, he did explain. ADV SIGODI What did he say? MR MVELASE ADV SIGODI Did he tell you how he got that information about her? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON Let me read what he says It is signed by Mr Ndlovo." He is speaking about the following: MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON You wonder what? MR MVELASE Were they ever asked as to whether they are aware of all the members of IFP in the Dube Hostel. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE I maintain the fact that he will not know all of us. In fact, all of the IFP members will not know each and every individual. I know that what we did was not the policy or did not conform with the policy of the IFP. This is why we are here to ask for amnesty. DR TSOTSI MR MVELASE Well their records, I would like to question their records. They date way back to which year? The list of the members of the IFP, their records containing the members of the IFP, dates, way back to which year? ADV SIGODI Alright, when were you given your card? MR MVELASE I got my card in 1991. CHAIRPERSON Do you know Mr Hlongwane? MR MVELASE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Does he stay in the Dube Hostel? MR MVELASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hlongwane will know if you were a member of the IFP, not so? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE Well, there are people who are popular and well-known. Like myself, an ordinary person, who did not feature prominently some activities in the past, who would not be known as such. CHAIRPERSON Was this your first notorious activity? MR MVELASE Yes. ADV SIGODI How long had you been staying at the hostel before you committed this crime? MR MVELASE I arrived at the hostel in 1990, to the day of this incident in 1993 on the 30th. ADV SIGODI Were you employed at this time? MR MVELASE I had a lot of temporary jobs. ADV SIGODI I heard you when you were asked what would you have done differently and your answer was, when you were asked by your own legal representative, I heard you say that you would try to get more temporary jobs. What difference would it have made to the robbery if you did not have a temporary job? MR MVELASE ADV SIGODI Did you expect to be paid for this job that you did or this robbery that you committed for the IFP, or to be remunerated? Did you expect any form of remuneration? MR MVELASE What I expected was to do this to strengthen the organisation and to further its mission. CHAIRPERSON Are you finished with your questioning, Mr Claassen? MR CLAASSEN Thank you Mr Chair, I have. CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE I have a few Mr Chairperson. Mr Mvelase, a few questions. On page 7 of the bundle 10(a) of your application, you say that: Is that correct? MR MVELASE That is correct. MS THABETE Exactly what was the intention? MR MVELASE The intention was to try and rob so that we can meet the needs of the IFP. MS THABETE MR MVELASE It is for that reason that I am saying that it was a mistake on the part of Sampson Manqele when he did something to which we had not agreed or planned. MS THABETE Did you discuss the incident thereafter as a group that had planned the robbery? MR MVELASE I asked him, that was when we were now in prison, and I wanted to know from him why he did that and he said it was a mistake. He could not answer as to how it happened. MS THABETE When you were discussing this did he tell you why he shot Miss Govender when you had agreed that you should just rob her? MR MVELASE He said it was a very, very big mistake on his part, which mistake he too could not explain. CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE The firearms were to be used to scare off or frighten the targets, to scare them off so that they could give us the money that we wanted. It was not our intention to kill any one of them. CHAIRPERSON Why was there ammunition in it, and why was there more than one gun? MR MVELASE I would say that we did not concern ourselves with having to use firearms that did not have ammunition, but basically our intention was not to go there to kill. CHAIRPERSON Is that your answer? What did you think was going to happen? What would have happened if this lady resisted? MR MVELASE I think that because there were many of us, there were four of us, there was no need really to kill her. Yes, this happened as an error because she too was not armed. I did not see any arm in her possession. Really it was not our intention to kill her, it just happened, it was a mistake. Those were not our intentions. That is why I am saying it was a very big mistake. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mvelase, you are not answering my question. What did you think was going to happen to this woman if she resisted the robbery? MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON MR MVELASE CHAIRPERSON Is that your answer to my question? Would you like me to repeat the question one more time? MR MVELASE Yes, I think the answer suffices. MS THABETE On page 8 of the bundle number 11(a) of your application, there is a question which asks who gave the order and in your application you said "Not applicable" MR MVELASE I think that had questions pertaining to Wiseman been raised, I would have answered them. MS THABETE MR MVELASE I am saying had they asked me questions about Wiseman maybe I could have included his name. MS THABETE MR MVELASE I would like to know as to which statement you are referring to and who took it from me and when? MS THABETE MR MVELASE ...(no English interpretation) MS THABETE Why not? MR MVELASE MS THABETE MR MVELASE MS THABETE MR MVELASE My role was to point the firearm at these two people and rob them. MS THABETE What did you do during the robbery incident? MR MVELASE I pointed a firearm at this white male and Manqele had his firearm pointed to the female, and this female, if I still remember very well, had I think about two bags in her possession. Yes, there were two bags of money. MS THABETE So what are you applying for amnesty for? MR MVELASE I am seeking amnesty for taking part in this robbery, attempted robbery and the death of the deceased and I am seeking amnesty from the IFP as a whole for violating their policies and I am asking for forgiveness from the entire South African population. MS THABETE Are you aware that you were charged with attempted murder of Mr Rupert Colleen and you were actually convicted for it? MR MVELASE Yes. MS THABETE Would you say this was part of the plan? How would you justify this politically? MR MVELASE ...(no English interpretation) MS THABETE No, attempted murder of Mr Rupert Colleen. MR MVELASE It was within our plans because I was to point this firearm at this person. He could not have easily given the money to us, I was to point the firearm at him. MS THABETE Mr Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Mr Claassen have you got any questions? MR CLAASSEN Thank you, no questions from my side Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED