amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-13 JOHANNESBURG 2 THEMBA NHLAPO AM 1367/96 KILLING OF ANDRIES MOLAOA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53279&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99041214_jhb_990413jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete are there any other matters that we need to deal with? MS THABETE Yes, Mr Chair, the matter that remains is the matter of Mr Themba Nhlapo. The legal representatives are here. If I can be given five minutes to talk to the victims. I did consult with them yesterday. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn for five minutes then. MS THABETE Thank you. INTERPRETER Will the court please stand. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller, you're appearing with the applicant in this matter? MR MILLER That is correct yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Mr Nhlapo, what language would you prefer to use? MR NHLAPO Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Will you please stand. THEMBA T NHLAPO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Be seated. Yes, Mr Miller? EXAMINATION BY MR MILLER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Nhlapo, you have read your application for amnesty, is that correct? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MR MILLER And you confirm the contents thereof, is that correct? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MR MILLER You've also made an affidavit which was signed this morning, which expands a little bit on your ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Just hang on Mr Miller. I want to arrange headphones for the victims, they can't hear anything. MR MILLER Sorry. ADV SIGODI ARRANGES FOR HEADPHONES FOR VICTIMS MR MILLER Thank you, Chairperson. Now this morning you made a further affidavit which expanded somewhat on your original application, is that correct? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MR MILLER And you have read this affidavit and signed it, is that correct? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MR MILLER And you confirm the contents thereof. MR NHLAPO Yes, I do. MR MILLER Just in brief, you admit that you killed the deceased on the 27th of August 1992, while you were ...(intervention)? MR NHLAPO Yes, I do. MR MILLER And just very briefly, without going into too much detail, just very briefly for the record, what was your motivation in committing this offence? MR NHLAPO It was not my intention to kill the deceased, we wanted to rob the deceased of the firearm. MR MILLER Yes, but what did you plan to do with the firearm? MR NHLAPO We wanted to make use of the firearm at my place of residence. MR MILLER Was this because you were being attacked, as you set out in your affidavit? MR NHLAPO Yes, we were being attacked at our place of residence. MR MILLER Now the - and also just for the record, you are serving a sentence of 21 years, is that correct? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MR MILLER And you were convicted of the crimes of murder, robbery and possession of a firearm and ammunition? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MR MILLER And you are applying now for amnesty in respect of all these offences? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MR MILLER And the family of the victim, of the deceased are present today, do you have anything to say to them? MR NHLAPO I would like to apologise to them. MR MILLER I have no further questions, Chairperson. I ask that this affidavit which I believe you have copy of, be handed in as evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER CHAIRPERSON It is accepted as evidence. MR MILLER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete? MS THABETE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I would like to put on record that I will be assisting the victims in this matter to lead their evidence. I would like to also put it on record that the father of the deceased is here, the brother is here, his wife is also here. CHAIRPERSON The deceased's wife? MS THABETE The deceased's wife, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE Mr Nhlapo, when this incident occurred, where were you staying? Where were you residing? MR NHLAPO At Mandela squatter camp. MS THABETE Do you perhaps know why the court in its indictment have written that you used to live at Emdene township, in house number 1206 in Soweto? MR NHLAPO Yes, I know. MS THABETE Explain briefly why. MR NHLAPO At the time of my arrest the police wanted to know where I resided and I knew that if I took them to Mandela squatter camp where I resided, they would discover the other comrades that I was with and then I decided to refer them to Emdene 1206. MS THABETE Were you a member of the ANC when you lived at Mandela squatter camp? MR NHLAPO Yes, I was a follower of the ANC. MS THABETE Where you a member of the SDU? MR NHLAPO Yes, I was a member of the SDU. MS THABETE In which area was your SDU operating? MR NHLAPO We were operating at the squatter camp. MS THABETE So can you explain, did you operate in other areas as well or you operated only in Mandela squatter camp? MR NHLAPO We operated only at Mandela squatter camp and not in other areas. MS THABETE And your day to day activities as SDUs there, what did it involve? MR NHLAPO We were watching over the community, protecting it seeing that we were being attacked, that was our duty. MS THABETE Who used to attack you? MR NHLAPO People from the hostel. MS THABETE And when you were guarding against them from attacking you, how did you do this, how did you guard against them attacking you? MR NHLAPO We were guarding ourselves against being attacked and we would protect ourselves in the event of being attacked. MS THABETE Coming back to the incident at Albertina, what were you doing there? MR NHLAPO We wanted the police who were in possession of firearms, that we could rob them of their firearms. MS THABETE Were you looking specifically for policemen or were you looking for any people that you could get firearms from? MR NHLAPO Specifically we were looking for the police and the Security people. MS THABETE Did you know - oh sorry. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) at paragraph 21 indicates that you were looking for anybody. MR NHLAPO Yes, that was true, but we specifically targeted the police and the security. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't make sense to me that. Why didn't you say that in your affidavit then? MR NHLAPO I think it was a mistake on my part to say anybody could have been a target, but specifically I must indicate that anyone in possession of a firearm could have been a target. CHAIRPERSON So what is the truth, what is the factual position? MR NHLAPO We wanted anybody in possession of a firearm. CHAIRPERSON Not necessarily policemen, anyone that was in possession of a firearm? MR NHLAPO Anybody in possession of a firearm. We wanted to accumulate firearms for ourselves. CHAIRPERSON So your affidavit is correct? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MS THABETE How did you target Mr Molaoa, that is the deceased? MR NHLAPO We were walking past and we saw this police vehicle parked and we saw these police sitting inside. There were two of them. We discussed amongst ourselves the fact that this a police vehicle and there are some policemen. MS THABETE Before I ask questions on what you've just said, I just want to back a bit. Did you know the deceased before seeing him that day? MR NHLAPO No, I didn't know him. MS THABETE So your evidence is that you identified because you saw a police vehicle, is that so? MR NHLAPO No, I didn't know the deceased, I only saw this police vehicle. MS THABETE Are you aware, Mr Nhlapo, that the deceased did not travel in a police vehicle that could be identified? MR NHLAPO He was using a police vehicle because I could see this police radio inside. MS THABETE Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Is it your evidence that this was not a police vehicle, but you just saw - can you just clarify there, why you thought this was a police vehicle? MR NHLAPO We walked past this vehicle and on walking past I saw this police radio and we concluded that the police must be sitting inside because the radio was the one that was used by the police. MS THABETE Sorry, I don't understand, what do you mean by the microphone? MR NHLAPO There are these microphones that are used by the police and on walking past this vehicle we saw this microphone inside the police vehicle. MS THABETE And then in your affidavit you say you approached the people who were in the vehicle, is that correct? MR NHLAPO Yes. MS THABETE How many were you? MR NHLAPO There were three of us, but the third one did not come nearer. MS THABETE Could he be seen by the people in the car or not? MR NHLAPO I cannot say. MS THABETE I'm asking you this question because it's my instructions that there were two of you and not three of you, would you say this is correct? MR NHLAPO There were three of us, they could not or they may not have seen the third person, but there were three of us. MS THABETE In your affidavit on page 4 you also stated that you ordered the policeman to hand over his firearm, is that correct? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MS THABETE Did you assume that the people who were sitting in the car were both policemen? MR NHLAPO Yes, I assumed so. MS THABETE And you say he refused to produce his firearm, is that your evidence? INTERPRETER May the question please be repeated. MS THABETE You say he refused to hand over his firearm, is that your evidence? MR NHLAPO Yes, that's correct. MS THABETE My question to you is, how did you know that he had a firearm with him? MR NHLAPO As I've explained, we saw this police radio in the vehicle and we saw these two people and we concluded that ...(intervention) MS THABETE Were these people in uniform, police uniform? MR NHLAPO No, they were not in police uniform. MS THABETE Mr Nhlapo, it's my instructions that when you approached the vehicle, you did not order or you did not demand a firearm. It is my instructions that you demanded the car keys, what is your response to that? Actually let me correct myself, it is my instructions that you were standing outside and the other guy you were with entered the car and demanded car keys, what is your response to that? MR NHLAPO On approaching these people, on approaching the vehicle, I stood on the passenger or next to the passenger door and my friend went around to the driver's door. That is when I produced a firearm and pointed it at one of them and after that I told the one who was sitting at the back not to move and at the same time told my friend to take the firearm after which he should take the keys of the vehicle so as to neutralise them. MS THABETE Sorry, let's take this step by step. Are you saying you did demand the car keys from them? MR NHLAPO My friend who was on the other side of the vehicle did take the keys. I told the other one not to move. MS THABETE So who demanded the firearms from them? MR NHLAPO My friend who was on the driver's door. MS THABETE So is it your evidence that he demanded firearms and the car keys? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MS THABETE Can you explain why you didn't put that in your affidavit, that he should hand over not only his firearm, but also the car keys? MR NHLAPO I indicated that I referred to the firearm, but my friend on the other side was the one who took the car key. MS THABETE Sorry, I just want to clarify this properly. You're saying your friend demanded the firearms and the car keys. MR NHLAPO Yes. MS THABETE You were standing outside? MR NHLAPO That is correct. MS THABETE You did not demand anything from them, it's your friend who demanded the car keys and the firearm? MR NHLAPO I pointed the firearm at these people and said the people should not move and my friend demanded the firearm and the car key. MS THABETE So my question still remains, why didn't you write the fact that you also demanded the car keys, in your affidavit? MR NHLAPO My legal representative did not ask me about that, but yes, that's what happened. MS THABETE It's also - you've written that the deceased lifted his firearm up and wanted to shoot you, is that correct? MR NHLAPO When I pointed it at him he resisted, he would not listen to me or obey what I was saying, then as soon as he lifted up his arm with the firearm I could hear that we were in danger. MS THABETE How did you see that he was going for his firearm if you were outside the car and he was inside the car? MR NHLAPO The car door was open and I could tell his movement. MS THABETE Where did he shift his arm to? MR NHLAPO He shifted his arm to where the firearm was. MS THABETE Whereabouts on his body would you say this was, was it near his hip, was it in front, was it at the back? MR NHLAPO On the side. MS THABETE When you say on the side, do you mean just above the hip? Would that be correct? MR NHLAPO On the waist, around his waist. MS THABETE Did you see the firearm, or you just assumed that he was reaching for his firearm? MR NHLAPO The firearm was on the other side, I could not tell because I was on the opposite direction, or rather the opposite side. MS THABETE Sorry, I didn't get that, what are you saying? Where was his firearm? MR NHLAPO On the waist, on his waist. ADV SIGODI Sorry, Ms Interpreter, are we getting the Zulu translation or the Xhosa translation? It's in, it could be the buttock or the waist. INTERPRETER Okay, let the witness clarify that. ADV SIGODI Could you indicate on your body where he got the firearm? MR NHLAPO May I demonstrate this, can I stand up? INTERPRETER Where the witness is pointing. MS THABETE Which side? ADV SIGODI The witness is pointing on his waist. MS THABETE Which side, on the right-hand side or on the left-hand side? MR NHLAPO On the right-hand side. MS THABETE It's also my instructions, Mr Nhlapo, that the deceased had his gun behind him, not on the side, what is your comment to that? MR NHLAPO That I would not repudiate, but I saw on the side. What I saw was happening on the side, not necessarily the back. MS THABETE It is also my instruction, Mr Nhlapo, that there was no stage where the deceased lifted up his firearm with an intention to shoot you as you have alleged in your affidavit. What is your comment on that? MR NHLAPO How would I have shot at him when he was not drawing out his gun? MS THABETE Mr Nhlapo, it's just been your evidence that you saw him moving his arm as if he was going to remove his firearm. MR NHLAPO Yes, that's my evidence. MS THABETE That's not what your affidavit says, your affidavit says "He however lifted up his firearm and it was clearly his intention to shoot me." Those are two different things. So which version is the right one, did he act as if he was going to pull out his firearm, which according to you was on his waist, on the right-hand side, or did he lift his firearm up with a clear intention that he was going to shoot you? Which version is the right one? MR NHLAPO No, he did not lift up his firearm in his hand, but he acted as if he was drawing out or pulling out the gun. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't see his firearm? MR NHLAPO No. CHAIRPERSON Paragraph 25 of your affidavit reads as follows "I ordered the policeman to hand over his firearm, he refused to do this. He did however lift up his firearm and it was clearly his intention to shoot me." MR NHLAPO Yes, I understand that, but I did not say that as such, I said he did not lift up his firearm. CHAIRPERSON I'm going to adjourn for lunch, you can think about the following question as well. If you didn't see the firearm, how were you able to tell him that he should hand it over? MR NHLAPO I knew that he was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn for lunch. MS THABETE Thank you. INTERPRETER Will the court please rise. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION THEMBA NHLAPO (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE (Cont) Thank you, Mr Chairman, can I proceed? Mr Nhlapo, it's my instructions that nobody ordered any handing over of a firearm, the guy you were with went into the car and demanded the car keys and you were standing outside of the car, what is your response to that? MR NHLAPO Yes, that is correct, this person went to the drivers seat and I was standing outside, yes that is correct. MS THABETE Are you going to respond to the issue of the order? - of the handing over of the keys and of the firearms. MR NHLAPO Would you please explain, I don't understand. MS THABETE You see, Mr Nhlapo, I've got a witness who is going to come and testify that he was there when this incident happened and the other guy you were with never ordered that they should hand over the firearms. There was nothing said about the firearms, all he said was that they must hand over the keys, what is your response to that? MR NHLAPO I heard him when I asked for a firearm from this person and I heard him referring to the keys as well. MS THABETE Can you please explain why did you shoot the deceased. MR NHLAPO The deceased was shot. When I noted that he was reaching for his firearm I saw myself as being in danger and then I fired a shot. MS THABETE Why didn't you run away when you saw him making a sign? MR NHLAPO I realised that I was already in danger, fleeing would not have made a difference. MS THABETE It's also my instructions, Mr Nhlapo, that you shot at the deceased because the guy you were with who was inside the car told you that they are refusing to give him the car keys, as a result you must shoot him. What is your response to that? MR NHLAPO He did not say they did not want to give me the car keys, he said this person is fighting and "shoot". MS THABETE So now is it your evidence that you shot him because the other guy told you that he's fighting, so you must shoot, or the reason is that because he was making a sign as if he wants to shoot you? Which one is the right reason, the correct reason for you to shoot him? MR NHLAPO Both, because I also noticed that he was reaching out for his firearm and my colleagues, my companion also indicated that this person was fighting and I was aware of that as well. MS THABETE Can you explain why you didn't say this in your affidavit, the fact that the friend told you to shoot because he was resisting? MR NHLAPO Yes, I can see it doesn't appear in the affidavit. This question never arose. MS THABETE Was it necessary to shoot the deceased? MR NHLAPO Yes, it was necessary for me to shoot him. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR NHLAPO Because I could see he was fighting and my friend also ordered that I should shoot. MS THABETE Where did you shoot him, whereabouts in his body did you shoot him? MR NHLAPO In the stomach. MS THABETE Mr Nhlapo, I've been instructed to also ask you that in your evidence earlier on you said that even though this was a private police car you thought that there were policemen inside because you saw a police microphone, do you remember that? MR NHLAPO Yes, I do recall that. MS THABETE My instructions are to ask you how, where was the microphone situated? MR NHLAPO It was hanging on the side of the window, inside. MS THABETE Mr Chair, can I be allowed to clarify this point with one of the victims please? MS THABETE The microphone, where was it hanging? CHAIRPERSON He said it was hanging on the side of the window. MS THABETE On the side of the window. It's my instructions that it was under the dashboard and further - just hang on ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Let's hear what he's got to say to that, that is was under the dashboard. MS THABETE Oh, okay, okay. ADV SIGODI What do you say to that Mr Nhlapo? MR NHLAPO ...(no English interpretation) MS THABETE Which window are you talking about, are you talking about the windscreen or the side window? MR NHLAPO I'm talking about the windscreen. This was sitting on the windscreen, or hanging against the windscreen. MS THABETE And where were you coming from? MR NHLAPO I was coming from the side of the door. MS THABETE From the side. From the front or from the back, going towards the front? MR NHLAPO On the side, I was coming from the side. MS THABETE No, what I'm asking is, from which direction were you, were you coming from the direction of the back of the car or were you coming from the direction of the front of the car when you saw this mike? MR NHLAPO I was coming towards the door on the side of the vehicle, that is when I noticed this microphone. I was on the side of the vehicle near the door. MS THABETE Well Mr Nhlapo, it's my instructions that there is no way you could have seen the microphone because it was under the dashboard, and further, this was a Hi-Ace, which is very, very high, you couldn't have seen this from walking on the side of the car. What is your response to that? MR NHLAPO No, this was visible. Yes, the radio is usually placed inside the dashboard, but you could see the microphone hanging. MS THABETE So by killing the deceased, how were you going to achieve your political objectives? MR NHLAPO The intention was not to kill the deceased, it was only by mistake that the deceased was killed. We wanted to get hold of his firearm. It was a mistake that he got shot. CHAIRPERSON What did you think was going to happen if you point a firearm at him and you discharge it? What did you think was going to happen? MR NHLAPO I just wanted to scare him off, but it so happened that he got shot by mistake. It was not my intention to shoot him. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS THABETE And then when you had shot him, did you manage to take the firearm, which was your intention in the first place to take? MR NHLAPO No, we were not able to get hold of it. MS THABETE Why? You had come for the firearm, so why didn't you take it? MR NHLAPO Yes, we had come for the firearm. When this gunshot went off, it drew the attention of many people and we started running away after the person was shot and we therefore couldn't take the firearm. MS THABETE So what would be your political justification for having killed the deceased? MR NHLAPO We wanted a firearm from this person so that we could use it where we resided, use it against the people at the hostel. MS THABETE It's also my instructions, Mr Nhlapo, that finally, there was no political motive for your actions that day because you wanted to hijack the car, you never ordered the firearm, you ordered the car keys, or your friend ordered the car keys and not the firearms. What is your response to that? MR NHLAPO No, the intention was not hijack the car, we just wanted the firearm. We did not have an intention of hijacking the vehicle. MR MILLER Sorry, Chairperson, can I just point out that the witness was in fact acquitted on the count of hijacking the car. In court he was found guilty only of robbing the keys and not the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON And so? MR MILLER Well I'm just pointing that out, that that is what he was convicted of and that therefore it would seem that my learned friend's submission that he was intending to hijack the car has got no basis to it. CHAIRPERSON Does it follow? Why can't he be confronted with the proposition? We don't know why he was acquitted, maybe for lack of evidence, something that she may know now. MR MILLER Well maybe she knows something. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MS THABETE Thank you. Would you like me to repeat the question for you, Mr Nhlapo? MR NHLAPO Yes, please. MS THABETE My instructions are that your motive that day was not political because your friend did not request the firearms that day, but he requested the car keys and therefore your motive was criminal, namely to hijack the car. What is your response to that? MR NHLAPO I dispute the argument that we wanted to hijack the car, but yes, I agree we wanted to rob the person of his firearm, it was not our intention to rob them of the vehicle. I must indicate that maybe the friend wanted the keys so that they should not be able to come after us after having robbed them of the firearm. MS THABETE Did you take the car keys? MR NHLAPO I wouldn't know because after the gun went off we ran away and each one of us fled to different directions. MS THABETE Did you personally take the car keys? MR NHLAPO As I've explained, I was not on the side of the driver's door, I was on the other side instead, so that when we ran away I cannot say whether he took the keys or not. I did not come to the side of the driver's door. MS THABETE It is also my instructions that this is not, you had no political motive and you didn't even know, you couldn't have known that these were policemen because the deceased and his brother did not travel in a police car, it was private car and also they were not in uniform, what is your response to that? MR NHLAPO Yes, they were not wearing a police uniform, I agree, but I am saying we went to them because we noticed this police radio in the vehicle and that's when we concluded that they are police. Yes, they were not wearing any police uniform. MS THABETE You have ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI Sorry. What made you sure that they were policemen, that the deceased was a policeman? MR NHLAPO As I have explained earlier ...(intervention) ADV SIGODI No, I've heard the explanation that you saw this microphone, now what I want to know, does the fact that there was a microphone per se, confirm that the person driving that particular vehicle is a policeman? MR NHLAPO Yes, that is correct. ADV SIGODI But you've just heard that this was a private car. What reasonable ...(intervention) MR NHLAPO Yes, as I have indicated it was a private vehicle but I indicated that we came to them and we started suspecting that they are the police. ADV SIGODI Did you know the deceased? MR NHLAPO No, I did not know him. DR TSOTSI Mr Nhlapo, did you see the gun in the policeman's possession? MR NHLAPO No, no, I did not see it. DR TSOTSI And did your companion see it? MR NHLAPO Yes, he did. DR TSOTSI Okay, now what was there to stop you from, or stop you or stop him from seizing the gun and running away with it? After all this is what you had gone there for, to get the gun. MR NHLAPO Our attempt to get the firearm failed because it was in a holster and a gunshot had also gone off at the same time and we ran away. CHAIRPERSON So you did see the firearm? MR NHLAPO Not personally because I was on the other side of the vehicle. DR TSOTSI You said you ran away because there were people who noticed that there was a gun shooting, shooting there? MR NHLAPO That is correct. DR TSOTSI Didn't it occur to you that if one seizes a gun from a policeman, that a shot might be fired? MR NHLAPO I do not quite get that question. DR TSOTSI The question is very simple. You went there to seize, to steal a gun, my question is, didn't it occur to you that in the process of stealing that gun there might be a shot fired? MR NHLAPO Yes, it did occur to me. DR TSOTSI And did you then decide that if a shot was fired, you would then run away and not take possession of the gun? MR NHLAPO The gunshot went off unexpectedly, so that when it did we got a fright and we ended up not taking the firearm that we had come for and we ran away. DR TSOTSI I don't understand what frightened you, what frightened you, was it the gunshot that frightened you or was it the fact that there were people around? What was it exactly that frightened you that made you run away? MR NHLAPO We were frightened by the gunshot and the fact that this had drawn the attention of the people who were now looking as this was happening. DR TSOTSI Now what was your fear about people looking on? You went there to steal a gun and a shot was fired and there were people around here, what was it that you feared about the people, that made you leave the gun instead of taking it away with you? MR NHLAPO We realised that these people might start screaming, shouting and calling other people, so we decided to run away. DR TSOTSI Did these people know you? MR NHLAPO You mean the people who were around there? I don't ...(intervention) DR TSOTSI Yes, the people around there, did they know you? MR NHLAPO No, they did not know us. DR TSOTSI Did you know them? MR NHLAPO Yes, there were some that I knew, security guards. DR TSOTSI Yes, who were these? MR NHLAPO Those were security guards who were just standing by. DR TSOTSI Where were they standing in relation to the car, to the policemen's car? MR NHLAPO They were quite a distance, not too far away. They were outside a certain firm, building. DR TSOTSI So what was it that you feared about them? Were they carrying firearms or did you fear they were going to shoot you or what was it exactly that you feared about them? MR NHLAPO Yes, they had firearms in their possession or with them. DR TSOTSI Did you see the firearms with them? MR NHLAPO They usually carry those firearms and I saw them. DR TSOTSI No, I'm not asking what they usually do, did you actually see the firearms that they were carrying? MR NHLAPO Yes, I did. DR TSOTSI Oh I see. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you go and rob them then? DR TSOTSI Answer the question. Why didn't you rob them if you saw they were, that's what you were looking for, firearms, isn't it? Why didn't you rob them of them? MR NHLAPO See there were two of them standing there and we thought we were not going to manage to overcome them because they were both standing there. CHAIRPERSON But there were two in the car also. MR NHLAPO Yes, you see the difference is that they were sitting. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete, have you got anymore questions? MS THABETE Please Mr Chairperson, I do. You stated that you did not see the gun of the deceased, but your friend saw the firearm, how do you know this? INTERPRETER May you please repeat the last part of your question, Ms Thabete. CHAIRPERSON Repeat your question. MS THABETE You say you did not see the firearm of the deceased, but your friend saw the firearm. My question is, how do you know that your friend saw the firearm? MR NHLAPO He shouted and said: "The person has a firearm with him". MS THABETE You know, Mr Nhlapo, I've got a problem, you seem to be introducing new evidence all the time and I'm not sure whether I should ask you why you didn't mention the fact that your friend told you that the deceased had a firearm, because firstly, in your affidavit you only stated that your friend ordered the deceased to hand over his firearm, then later on you introduced new evidence that no, it was a firearm and the car keys. - only after I've asked you about the car keys. I asked you about what you had written of the fact that he lifted his firearm up, again you changed that, you said no, he didn't lift up his firearm, but you saw him making a sign as if he was going to take up his firearm. Now I'm asking you, how do you know that he saw the firearm and you're saying: "He said so". Why didn't you put that down in your affidavit, why are you introducing new evidence now? MR NHLAPO You see what I've written in my affidavit is what I've been asked by my attorney. MS THABETE But it doesn't explain why you are introducing new evidence all the time, that you could have stated earlier on. It's important evidence. MR NHLAPO You see, in other things in relation to my attorney, he never asked me some other things and only if he did I would have answered and included such in my affidavit. So my attorney did not canvass such matters with me. MS THABETE My last question is - actually it's my second-last question, if you were there to take firearms or to take a firearm, why did your friend take the car keys instead and run away with them instead of taking the firearm, more especially because according to your evidence he had told you that he has seen the firearm? Why didn't he take the firearm, he had seen it, why did he take the car keys instead and run away with them? MR NHLAPO As I just explained, inasfar as that is concerned, that happened in such a way that as soon as we obtain the firearm then we will escape or run away. As I also had explained that when I pointed the firearm at him my friend went to take out the car keys and as he was rushing to where the firearm was, the deceased also did that and that's at that moment when he shouted and said: "He has a gun, he has a gun". MS THABETE So your friend didn't order the keys, he actually went to the ignition and took the keys by force, is that your evidence now? MR NHLAPO I just said that he took out the keys from the ignition, not ...(intervention) MS THABETE What I'm saying is, your earlier evidence was that he demanded the keys and the deceased refused to hand over the keys to him, is it now your evidence that actually he didn't demand the keys, he just went to the car and took the keys because he didn't want you to chase them? Is that your evidence now? MR NHLAPO I don't remember saying he demanded the keys, he just opened the door. I don't remember saying he demanded the keys. MS THABETE: It's also in your affidavit, paragraph 25, page 24, and I asked you about it, you confirmed that: "Yes, they demanded the keys and the firearm." That was your own evidence earlier on. MR NHLAPO No, please can you read that part with regards to the key, because he opened ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Will you accept if I tell you, you under oath said that your colleague asked for the keys? MR NHLAPO Yes, I did take an oath. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I'm asking you if you accept if I tell you that you did in fact testify that your colleague had demanded the keys of that motor vehicle. You say you forgot or you don't remember saying so, I'm telling you you did say so. It seems that you told your advocate as well because it's inserted in your affidavit as well. MR NHLAPO Well I do accept that now because you see, there are so many questions that have been bombarded my way and I get confused. CHAIRPERSON Well I believe there's one more coming. MS THABETE ...(indistinct) one more. CHAIRPERSON No more? MS THABETE One more. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MS THABETE On paragraph 31 you say that you "(were convicted of robbery of the keys of the vehicle)" And you say your intention was to rob the deceased of his firearm. Now my question is, are you applying for the robbery of the keys of the vehicle, or are you applying for amnesty for the robbery or attempted robbery of the firearm? Can you just clarify what you are applying for amnesty for and what you are denying? MR NHLAPO I'm here to apply for amnesty because I killed the deceased. This is why I am here, because I killed him and I'm seeking amnesty in respect of that. MS THABETE So you are not applying for the robbery of the keys of the vehicle, which you were convicted of, is that your evidence? MR NHLAPO No, I'm applying for amnesty for the killing. MS THABETE Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Only? Only in respect of the killing? MR NHLAPO Yes, for the killing, that's all. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete, you're done? MS THABETE Yes, Mr Chair, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller, have you got any questions? MR MILLER No, no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MILLER CHAIRPERSON Dr Tsotsi? DR TSOTSI No, questions. CHAIRPERSON Adv Sigodi? ADV SIGODI No questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, one thing interests me here. You say the purpose of trying to rob the policeman of his firearm was that you needed to protect your home and you wanted a firearm to protect your house, did I understand you correctly? MR NHLAPO Yes, that's what I said. CHAIRPERSON Now were you working at the time? MR NHLAPO Yes, I was working. CHAIRPERSON What day did this incident take place? MR NHLAPO This took place on the 27th of August 1992. CHAIRPERSON What day of the week was that? MR NHLAPO I think it was on a Friday. CHAIRPERSON What time of day would this have taken place? MR NHLAPO At eleven. CHAIRPERSON In the morning? MR NHLAPO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now the firearm you had, you say the police confiscated it when they arrested you? MR NHLAPO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did they arrest you on the same day as this incident? MR NHLAPO Yes, on the same day of the incident. CHAIRPERSON How long had you had that firearm in your possession before the police confiscated it? MR NHLAPO I had a - it was about a week. CHAIRPERSON Was that your firearm? MR NHLAPO Yes. CHAIRPERSON So why did you need to rob somebody else of a firearm to protect your home when you had one? MR NHLAPO You see, we needed more guns because we only had one, insufficient in other words. CHAIRPERSON And your friend, was he staying there with you? MR NHLAPO Yes CHAIRPERSON And he had a gun? MR NHLAPO No, he did not, I had one, not him. CHAIRPERSON How many guns did you have at the house? MR NHLAPO In that shack we occupied, it was myself and one other companion of mine that had guns. In other words, we had two. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller, are there any other witnesses you'd like to call? MR MILLER No, no further witnesses, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete, are you going to call any witnesses? MS THABETE Yes, Mr Chair, I'm going to call Mr Andries Molaoa, the brother of the deceased. CHAIRPERSON You can call him. MS THABETE Can I please request the sound technicians to provide us with another mike, please. CHAIRPERSON There's one. What is the name? MS THABETE Could you give us your full names please? MR MOLOA Andries Moloa: M-O-L-O-A. CHAIRPERSON Mr Moloa, what language do you want to speak? MR MOLOA Southern Sesotho. MS THABETE Sorry Mr Chair, can I just correct the spelling, it's M-O-L-A-O-A. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objections to taking the prescribed oath? ANDRIES MOLAOA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Be seated. Yes? EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE Mr Molaoa, what is your relationship to the deceased? MR MOLAOA He is my brother, in fact my elder brother. MS THABETE Where did the deceased reside? MR MOLAOA He resided in Pimville, Zone 3. MS THABETE And did he work? MR MOLAOA At Kliptown Police Station. MS THABETE And how far is Kliptown from Albertina, where he was killed? MR MOLAOA It was quite far, it is in East Rand. Soweto is in West Rand. CHAIRPERSON Do you remember the day your brother died? MR MOLAOA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when he was killed? MR MOLAOA Yes, I was present. CHAIRPERSON Can you tell us what happened that day? MR MOLAOA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Please. MR MOLAOA Two people approached us whilst we were seated in the car. We had taken our father to a doctor. These two people approached us. The other one got into the car from the left-hand side and the other one went towards the driver's side, where he was seated. This one who was on the left-hand side managed to get into the car, then he demanded the car keys from the deceased. Then this other one who was on the passenger's side was pointing his firearm at the deceased, then he ordered Mr Nhlapo to shoot at the deceased. - this other one who was at the driver's side. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr Nhlapo in the van, because I don't follow? MR MOLAOA He was not in the car. CHAIRPERSON How many of them were there? MR MOLAOA It was the two of them. CHAIRPERSON Now who got into the car? MR MOLAOA This one who was accompanying Mr Nhlapo. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Nhlapo was at the driver's side? MR MOLAOA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. And the one that was inside ordered Mr Nhlapo to shoot the deceased? MR MOLAOA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay, carry on. MR MOLAOA That is where Mr Nhlapo shot at the deceased. MS THABETE And then what happened when they shot him, what did they do after that? MR MOLAOA They ran away. MS THABETE Did they take the keys with them? MR MOLAOA Yes, they did. MS THABETE Who took the keys? MR MOLAOA This one who was in the car. MS THABETE Did your brother at some stage pull out his firearm, or made a sign as if he was pulling out his firearm? MR MOLAOA No, no, he never did that. MS THABETE So is it your evidence that he was shot because the other one said he must shoot him? MR MOLAOA Yes, that is correct. MS THABETE What were you doing in Alberton? MR MOLAOA We took our father to a doctor. MS THABETE You've heard the evidence of the applicant, he says that he identified you as policemen because there was a microphone in your car, was there a microphone in your car? MR MOLAOA Yes, there was. MS THABETE Where was it? MR MOLAOA It was underneath the dashboard. CHAIRPERSON Was it anything to do with that contraption hanging on the windscreen? MR MOLAOA Nothing of that nature. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS THABETE I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MILLER Yes, Chairperson. First of all, where did you father live, where was his home? MR MOLAOA His home was QwaQwa. He was here on duty. MR MILLER Now just hang on, you say "on duty", do you mean he was a policeman? MR MOLAOA No. MR MILLER So what duty are you talking about? MR MOLAOA He had broken limbs and my brother took him to a doctor. MR MILLER So while he was here in Johannesburg area, he surely stayed with you at Pimville, Zone 3? MR MOLAOA No, he didn't stay with us. MR MILLER Where did he stay? MR MOLAOA He stayed at work. MR MILLER Well where was his work? MR MOLAOA Sharpeville. MR MILLER Sharpeville, that's near Vereeniging. MR MOLAOA Rosherville. MR MILLER Rosherville. Is that on the East Rand? MR MOLAOA I'm not au fait with the fact that it's in East Rand or at what place it is situated. MR MILLER Okay well, you see the reason I'm asking you all these question is, you say you took your father to a doctor in Alberton, right? MR MOLAOA Yes, that is correct. MR MILLER No wasn't this doctor some very far distance from where your father was staying? CHAIRPERSON Is it in dispute that the incident occurred near Alberton? MR MILLER No, it's not. CHAIRPERSON So what are we squealing about? MR MILLER But what might be in dispute is possibly what exactly they were doing there and how they came to be there. ADV SIGODI Does it matter what they were doing there? CHAIRPERSON Does it matter what they were doing there? Your client says he shot the policeman there in Alberton. MR MILLER Well I'll leave it there then, Chairperson. Anyway, are you a policeman also? MR MOLAOA I am not a policeman. MR MILLER But the car you were driving in, it was a police vehicle wasn't it? MR MOLAOA The car that I was driving in was the one that was used by my brother. MR MILLER In the course of his official duties? MR MOLAOA That is correct. ADV SIGODI Sorry, on this issue of the car, was it his own private car or was it a car that he had been given at work? MR MOLAOA It was an official vehicle the he used during the course of his duties. MR MILLER And it had various police equipment in it, including a radio? MR MOLAOA I don't understand your question. MR MILLER It had a police radio inside it? MR MOLAOA That is correct. MR MILLER What colour was it, was it the usual yellow that the police were then using? MR MOLAOA It was white in colour. MR MILLER White with the blue stripes, as you now see the police cars? MR MOLAOA No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller, it is your client's case that this was an unmarked vehicle. MR MILLER Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON I would imagine blue stripes would be regarded as marked, not so? MR MILLER I'll leave that question then. Now this is some time ago, this happened in, when, in 1992, which is now very nearly seven years ago, right? MR MOLAOA That is correct. MR MILLER Do you still remember clearly what happened that day? MR MOLAOA I do not remember clearly what happened there on that day, there has been a number of years since this incident took place. MR MILLER So if I said to you that my client, Mr Nhlapo, was on the passenger's side - I understood you to say he was on the driver's side, have I got it right? MR MOLAOA He was on the driver's side. MR MILLER And if I said to you he was on the passenger's side? MR MOLAOA That won't be correct. MR MILLER Can you be sure of that after a period of nearly seven years? MR MOLAOA Yes. MR MILLER So, you said in your evidence that the person on the left-hand side got in the car, now that must have been my client, Mr Nhlapo, because the left side is the driver's side. CHAIRPERSON Well it depends on which way you're looking at the car, isn't it? If you're sitting in the car, the driver's side is on the right-hand side. If you're facing the car from the front, it is on the left. MR MILLER Well let's ask the witness, Chairperson. When you say the left-hand side, which was are you looking at the car, from the front or from the back? MR MOLAOA From the back. MR MILLER Right, then I'm right, the left-hand side is the passenger's side. So you say the person on the left-hand side got into the car and demanded the keys, right? MR MOLAOA I do not understand your question. MR MILLER Well you say that the person on the passenger's side got in the car and demanded the keys. MR MOLAOA Yes, that is correct. MR MILLER Was it not the person on the driver's side? MR MOLAOA Who was demanding the keys? MR MILLER Yes. MR MOLAOA Yes, it was not the person on the driver's side who demanded the keys. MR MILLER Now wait a minute, you just told us one second ago that it was the person on the passenger's side, now you say it was the person on the driver's side, now which was it? MS THABETE Sorry Mr Chair, the witness said it was the person on the left-hand side and not the person on the right-hand side. That is how I heard it. Can the Interpreter maybe clarify it? MR MOLAOA That is what the witness said, as you say. MR MILLER Thank you. And tell me, my client's colleague, was he armed? MR MOLAOA I did not see whether he was armed or not. MR MILLER You see you say the person on the passenger's side, who according to you was not my client but his colleague, was pointing a firearm. MR MOLAOA It was Mr Nhlapo, not his colleague, his colleague was the one who got into the car. MR MILLER Did you not see a third person at all there? MR MOLAOA I never saw a third person. MR MILLER But you can't dispute the fact that there might have been a third person standing some distance away, keeping observation? MR MOLAOA I never saw the third person at all, I only saw two people. MR MILLER No, but listen to me. If I say that there was a third person, can you say that it's a lie? MR MOLAOA I say I only saw two people. MR MILLER Now is it not so that my client demanded from your later brother his firearm? MR MOLAOA That is not so. MR MILLER Well what I forgot to ask you was, was your brother in fact in possession of a firearm? MR MOLAOA He didn't have it in his hands, but he had it around somewhere in his body, but not on his hands. MR MILLER In his waist in a holster? MR MOLAOA That is correct. MR MILLER And you, were you armed? MR MOLAOA I was not armed at all. MR MILLER Well you've heard that the reason why this all happened, according to my client, is that they needed arms to defend themselves as the squatter camp, against the IFP, did you hear that? MR MOLAOA Yes, I've heard that. MR MILLER And that he was that day looking for firearms so that they could arm themselves over there. MR MOLAOA Yes, I've heard that. MR MILLER So did he not say anything to your brother about a firearm? MR MOLAOA He never made mention of a firearm at any stage. MR MILLER So what exactly was the reason that he shot your brother? MS THABETE Mr Chair, sorry, objection. How is he supposed to know? CHAIRPERSON Well did he say anything before or during the time he shot your brother? MR MOLAOA He never said anything to him. CHAIRPERSON Did he not ask for the keys? MR MOLAOA His colleague for the keys, not him. MR MILLER And were the keys handed to his colleague? MR MOLAOA Yes, he handed him the keys. MR MILLER So he didn't shoot him for not handing over the keys then? CHAIRPERSON What do you mean? MR MILLER Well he says that he handed him the keys, he didn't shoot him because he didn't want to hand over the keys. MR MOLAOA He handed him the keys, that I'm definitely sure of. Because I was sitting right behind him I saw him giving him the keys. MR MILLER So then my client is right when he says that the motive - well, let me ask you another thing before I get there, my client - well, did your brother do anything with his firearm, did he lift it up, did he point it? MR MOLAOA No, Sir. MR MILLER You mean to tell me a policeman who is being attacked, his motorcar keys are being robbed from he, who is armed, does nothing to reach for his arm, a trained policeman? CHAIRPERSON Did you brother do anything to indicate that he was armed, in your view? MR MOLAOA He did nothing other than giving them the car keys. He handed them the car keys with this right hand and he never showed any signs of trying to do anything else. MR MILLER How long was he in the force, how many years? MR MOLAOA I cannot clearly recall because it's been quite a long time now. MR MILLER Well was it more than five years? MR MOLAOA It might have been 10 years or so. MR MILLER So a policeman who has been in the force 10 years or so, and who is armed and who is robbed, does nothing with his firearm during the course of that robbery? MR MOLAOA Given the circumstances that prevailed at that time, he couldn't do anything, he hand no choice. MR MILLER Well we know that there was a police radio in the car, did he try and summon help? MR MOLAOA The person who got inside the car ripped the wire off, the wire of that microphone. MR MILLER So would my client then not be right when he says that the aim that day was to rob your brother of his firearm? MR MOLAOA That is incorrect. MR MILLER How can you say that, did he say anything to make you think otherwise? MR MOLAOA He never said anything to hint me. MR MILLER No, I'm not talking about hitting you, I'm saying, did he say anything ...(intervention) INTERPRETER He did not say "hit", he said "hinting", thank you. MR MILLER So therefore it's quite possible that he's telling the truth, that he wanted the firearm? MR MOLAOA He' telling a lie. MR MILLER How do you know, why do you say he's telling a lie. MR MOLAOA They ran off with the car keys and not the firearm. MR MILLER Yes, but that is what my client says, he says that after the shot they went away without the firearm, but their aim, their purpose was to get the firearm. MR MOLAOA Please explain your question. MR MILLER My client says he agrees with you that they ran away without the firearm, but he says that their purpose that day was to get the firearm. MR MOLAOA I cannot comment on that. MR MILLER So then why did you, why did you say earlier that he didn't want the firearm? CHAIRPERSON According to his evidence, the firearm was never requested. MR MILLER Yes, but he went further, when I asked him, when I put it to him that the aim that day was to get the firearm, he emphatically denied that that could be so. CHAIRPERSON I'm explaining to you why, because it wasn't asked. If you wanted something, wouldn't you ask for it? MR MILLER Well he might have wanted to get hold of it, take it out of the waistband. CHAIRPERSON Well proceed. MR MILLER Okay, now tell me, how do you feel about this whole incident? MR MOLAOA I've got nothing to say. I am just satisfied by the fact that he has been arrested. I cannot forgive him. MR MILLER And if it is so that he was committing a robbery to get hold of a firearm to protect himself in the ANC squatter camp against the IFP attacks from the hostel, would that make a difference to the way you feel? MR MOLAOA Please repeat your question. MR MILLER If it was so that he was trying to steal the firearm and that he was doing it to protect the people in the squatter camp against the IFP, would that change your feelings? MR MOLAOA I am not against the fact that he wanted the firearm to protect himself or the community, but he killed the deceased. MR MILLER So in other words what you are saying is he shouldn't get amnesty? MR MOLAOA He did nothing to me personally. He has killed the deceased, but this was the most hurting incident in my life, therefore I do not have any forgiveness for him. MR MILLER Well do you think he should get amnesty? CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller, whether he says yes or no, is not going to influence our decision, our job is to check whether the applicant has complied with the Act. MR MILLER As it pleases, Chairperson. You of course don't dispute my client's political affiliations, that he was a member of the ANC? MR MILLER Sorry, Mr Chair? CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether Mr Nhlapo was a member of the ANC or not? MR MOLAOA I'm not aware of that. MR MILLER Do you know whether he was part of the ANC's Self Defence Units? MR MOLAOA I do not believe that. MR MILLER Why not? MR MOLAOA Please repeat the question. MR MILLER Why do you not believe that he was part of the Self Defence Units? MR MOLAOA It is difficult to say because I do not know him that well. MR MILLER Okay, but you are aware that at this time when this incident happened, there was conflict between the ANC and the IFP, generally? CHAIRPERSON We, Mr Miller, have heard a number of matters such as this and we are aware of the conflict. MR MILLER As it pleases the Chair. Well I have no further questions then, Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete, do you have any questions? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE Just one. Whereabouts in his waist was the deceased's firearm, can you show us? MR MOLAOA Yes. MS THABETE Show us. MR MOLAOA It was on his waist at the back side, not on the sides. MS THABETE Could you see his firearm, was it visible? MR MOLAOA It was well hidden. MS THABETE You've heard the applicant's evidence, he says his friend saw the firearm, what is your comment to that? MR MOLAOA ...(no English interpretation) MS THABETE The applicant said in his evidence his friend saw the firearm of the deceased, what is your comment to that? MR MOLAOA He didn't see it. MS THABETE How do you know that? MR MOLAOA Mr Nhlapo's colleague entered from the left-hand side and the deceased was sitting on the driver's seat. Mr Nhlapo's colleague was on the left-hand side and the deceased was sitting on the right-hand side. MS THABETE Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Now I just want to get some information about the deceased's wife, what is her full name? I'm asking the witness. MR MOLAOA She is Maria Molaoa. CHAIRPERSON And her address? MR MOLAOA It's 3844 Pimville, Zone 4. CHAIRPERSON Did your brother have any children? MR MOLAOA Yes, he had children. CHAIRPERSON How many children? MR MOLAOA Four children. CHAIRPERSON Can you give me their names and ages? MR MOLAOA The first one is Johannes Molaoa and he was born in 1982. The second one is Tahaki Molaoa, born in 1986. The third one is Refilwe Molaoa. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MOLAOA I cannot recall when exactly was she born. MS THABETE ...(inaudible) MR MOLAOA Refilwe was born in 1991, and Rethabile, the last born, was born in 1992. CHAIRPERSON Is she also a female, that child? MR MOLAOA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And Tahaki? MR MOLAOA He's a male. CHAIRPERSON Tahaki is a male. MR MOLAOA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Any other witnesses, Ms Thabete? MR THABETE No other witnesses, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Miller, have you got any submissions to make? MR MILLER IN ARGUMENT Yes, Chairperson, I would ask that the Committee grant amnesty to the applicant in this case. Chairperson, it's my submission that the offence committed was committed with a political motive. The political motive was protection of the inhabitants of the squatter camp ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How do you deal with your client's own evidence that it was an accident? MR MILLER His evidence, Chairperson, is that that day he intended to rob, that he went to this car because he saw it was a police car and he wanted to rob the policeman of his firearm. He did not intend to kill him. He admits that that is what happened. And if the question is whether he is guilty of murder or not, certainly he is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Murder? MR MILLER On his own evidence - what he is saying, perhaps no, he didn't mean accident in the sense of negligence, what he meant was that it was something which was unplanned. It's like a bank robbery, where the robber may go into the bank and want to steal the money, they don't plan to shoot anyone, but it happens. It's exactly the same position. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MILLER And Chairperson, that the - I said the political motive was to protect the inhabitants of the squatter camp against the rival political attacks by another organisation, namely the IFP. The police were regarded as legitimate targets, and there is no disputing the fact that the deceased was a policeman and that the vehicle was in fact ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But surely you're not submitting that he killed the policeman because he was a policeman? MR MILLER Well ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He killed him because he thought the policeman was going to shoot him. MR MILLER Yes, that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And that brings me to the other issue, why did he kill him? MR MILLER He killed him, on the applicant's evidence, because he believed he was going to, he believed the deceased was going to kill him. CHAIRPERSON Ja, so, if you look at the Act, of what political enhancement was that, with what intention, political intention, was the policeman then shot? MR MILLER The political intention was to gain possession of a firearm in order to protect the inhabitants of the squatter camp. CHAIRPERSON But didn't he say that he shot him because he thought he was in danger? That's what he's got in the affidavit. MR MILLER Yes, but that would not be a defence in a murder trial. I mean it's the same as - let's take another example, let's say that a high-jacker approached someone while they stopped at a robot and he pulls out a firearm and he says: "Give me your car", and the driver of the car then says: "No, I'm not" and the driver then pulls out a firearm himself, and the hijacker because he thinks the driver is going to shoot him, shoots the driver. Now that can't be construed as any form of self-defence. And that's exactly the same as what happened here. CHAIRPERSON No, you missed a point. The Act says that any offence for which amnesty is applied for, must have been committed for the purposes of enhancing the political position of an organisation or a movement of some sort. MR MILLER Well the movement or organisation ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Now here we have the following facts, that the applicant didn't go out to shoot a policeman. He says "I shot the policeman because I thought he was going to produce a firearm and shoot at me." Surely that can't be construed as shooting with the intention of enhancing a political position? MR MILLER Well the shooting occurred in a course of an attempted robbery of a firearm and that act, the robbery of the firearm, would have enhanced the political position of the inhabitants of the squatter camp, who were ANC members, and the Self Defence Units, and it was done at least with the blessing of the Self Defence Units in that particular camp. CHAIRPERSON That's pushing it, isn't it? MR MILLER Not at ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That's really extending the interpretation of the Act, that a fortuitous murder can fall under the umbrella of a political crime. What was his intention? MR MILLER His intention was to get a firearm. CHAIRPERSON His intention was to save himself, isn't it, from what he thought was a danger? MR MILLER Yes, but after he tried to get the firearm and things started to go wrong, he realised that, well then he decided to shoot the deceased. CHAIRPERSON Well why didn't he look for the firearm then? If the shooting was to facilitate this politically motivated crime of robbing in order to obtain a firearm. MR MILLER Well he said that people arrived at the scene, including some security guards who were armed. CHAIRPERSON Well he saw the security guards before, he knew they were there, he just didn't go there. They had two of them. MR MILLER No, I think what he's saying, Chairperson, is that he realised that the security guards, it was only at that stage that he realised that the security guards were paying any attention to what was going on, before that they'd just been, apparently, idly standing by, doing nothing. CHAIRPERSON Proceed. MR MILLER And as I say, it was committed in the, the murder was committed in the course of a robbery, that it would have, that the robbery, had it succeeded, would have enhanced the position of a political organisation, namely the ANC and the Self Defence Unit within that squatter camp, and that that would have been his political motive. It's my submission therefore, that there is a political motive and that the Committee should therefore grant him amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Well deal with this one too, Mr Miller. He says in his affidavit that he's applying for amnesty in respect of counts 1, 2, 4 and 5 of the indictment. MR MILLER Yes. CHAIRPERSON And it seems that those are the offences for which he was convicted. The one is the murder that we've just discussed. MR MILLER Yes. CHAIRPERSON The robbery is in respect of car keys. He himself says that that is not what he's applying for. MR MILLER Yes CHAIRPERSON And of course the other two is ...(intervention) MR MILLER Possession and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Possession under the Firearms Act. MR MILLER Yes. CHAIRPERSON I've got no problem with that yet. MR MILLER Yes. CHAIRPERSON But what about the robbery? MR MILLER Well I didn't address you, Chairperson, on the robbery, for the reason that you've just mentioned that my client himself said ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Okay, I understand your position then. Let's leave that then. Should we find that the murder or that whole escapade was an activity not associated with any political motive, would the counts in respect of the offences related to the firearms, would the applicant then succeed on that application? MR MILLER Well I think that all the counts would fall within the same ambit, that they were all - if you accept my argument on the murder, that it was something that had been in the course of a politically motivated robbery, then the same argument I think, would apply to all the counts. And I can add this, it might be against what my client has said, but obviously if the Committee is so inclined, there has been no application for amnesty in regard of the robbery of the firearm and if the Committee is so inclined to grant amnesty, then I think maybe the Committee should consider that count also. CHAIRPERSON You may right, I'll have to think, we'll have to think about that, but it's a fair comment. Is there anything else you'd like to ...? MR MILLER Nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete, have you got any submissions? MS THABETE IN ARGUMENT Yes, Mr Chair. Mr Chair, on behalf of the victims, I would argue that it is my submission that the applicant be refused amnesty on the basis, number one, that his act was not political and there was no political motive. I would like the Committee, or I request the Committee to consider the evidence of the witness, the fact that according to his testimony, when the applicant and his friends approached them, they did not request for a firearm, they only requested the car keys. Somehow this was not mentioned by the applicant in his affidavit, he safely only mentioned the fact that they ordered a firearm. I would like to regard that, to consider that as well. Further, Mr Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee, the applicant spoke about the fact that, or in his affidavit he states that the deceased lifted up his firearm with an intention to shoot at him. And it's been the evidence of the witness, which I would like the Committee to consider as the true evidence that the deceased did not lift any firearm. Actually the applicant also admits to the fact that the deceased never lifted up a firearm. It's also the evidence of the witness that the situation of the firearm on the deceased's body was not visible to anybody who would have been outside, more especially to the friend of the applicant who was seated at the left-hand side. And it appears that the firearm was not visible. Further, Mr Chair, on the argument of the motive for having killed the deceased, I would like to argue that if the applicant says he had no intentions to kill, then we wouldn't be talking about murder here, we would talk about culpable homicide, because then he would be arguing that he was killed by mistake, it was negligent killing and that doesn't amount to murder, it amounts to culpable homicide. It's my submission, Mr Chair, that the applicant's motive was criminal inasfar as the shooting of the deceased was concerned. Thank you, Mr Chair. I don't know whether you would like me to address you on any issue or aspect. CHAIRPERSON No, that's okay. We will take time to consider this decision and we will hand it down in due course. I see it is a quarter to four already, we've hardly got a chance to finish another witness. We'll adjourn to 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS